Weapon Attack value question

[Faljar]

<DIV>I was questing with some guildies in RoV last night and I was using various weapons to see how they 'play'.  I was pleasantly surprised by the weakened Ghoulbane and its speed while berserk.  Those swings were coming fast and furious.  So I decided to more closely examine my arsenal of weapons, to see if there were something I could sell off.  Some quick dps calculations show that the Ghoulbane is a very good weapon at level 32 (I also have Bloodstains hammer and a pristine feyiron 1h axe), particularly with a shield.  These calculations are informative but, I fear, only tell part of the story.  During my examination, I noticed that the <FONT color=#00cccc>Attack</FONT> value on the Persona dialog changes with the different weapons.  Here are my values:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ghoulbane                510<BR>Bloodstain                 503<BR>Feyiron axe(1h)        504<BR>Feyiron axe(2h)        555<BR>DW Ebon Eye <BR>mace + Feyiron Sai  555</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Initially I thought the discrepancies were related to damage-type skills, since my Slashing is always a point or two ahead of the others.  I do put in the effort to keep all three as close to max as possible, and they are at the moment all between 160 and 163.  This fails to explain the lack of difference between the DW (crush/pierce) and the 2h (slash) with regard to the <FONT color=#00cccc>Attack</FONT> value listed, nor does it explain the great separation between the 1h'ers and the other 2 weapon styles.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does using a Shield affect the <FONT color=#00cccc>Attack</FONT> value aversely? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is there some hidded modifier on the 1h'ers that increases the <FONT color=#00cccc>Attack</FONT> value?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone else notice this and/or have some insight?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zenmu]

<DIV>You also have to take into consideration your strength, and the total strength that what ever weapon(s) and shield add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't quote me on this, but i'm pretty sure our strength affects your atk rating as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So for example, with dual wield weapons at that level, majority of them add atleast +5-9 strength each, where as most 2h weapons i've seen at that level are in the 3-5 range, with the exception of the SBH (which i think add's 9).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've yet to see a shield in the mid-high 30's that add's strength, which combined with a lower dps of most 1handers explains why your attack drops so much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, since your using a Heritage weapon, you'll probably have a higer Atk going sword and board than when using most other 1h weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's the stats on your feyiron 2h axe? or more specifically, how much strength does it add?... if it's compareable to the total from the dual wield weapons, then i guess it's safe to assume they will provide equal dps without parsing... however, if your strength while going 2h is less than dual wielding, then i would assume the 2h has a better dps ratio than your dual wield weapons. To maxize dps, going off your attack rating alone, try wearing more + strength items while using the 2h hander.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess the real question is whether or not your Attack rating is a adequate way to measure dps or potential dps without parsing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd be curious to see what each 10 point atk rating difference equals in terms of dps numbers... too bad i'm too dumb to work most parsers   =P</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Zenmuse on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:34 AM</span>

[Faljar]

<P>I thought about the strength bonus issue and all the weapons except the DW set are almost exactly the same bonus +/- 1.  The DW set add about 4-6 points extra.  So for the 2H'er and the 1H'ers there is no appreciable difference in strength (about 86-87 str)  bonus but there is an appreciable difference between the Attack values of the 2H'er and 1H'ers (510 vs 555).  Also, there is a significant difference in the strength bonus on the DW (~92 str) vs. the 2H, but there is no difference in the Attack value between those two.   </P> <P>I left this part of the discussion out of the first post, because I felt it added more confusion rather than clearing anything up.  I felt the discrepancies in the 1H'ers was more easily explainable by the slight differences in skill (slash, crush, pierce), rather than a significant difference in strength bonus.</P> <P>Can anyone explain what the Attack value on the Persona page is actually indicating?  </P> <P>How does it relate to AC, or combat in general ?</P> <P>What components is it comprised of (can assume CSP skill and Str, but aught else)?</P> <P> </P>

[Faljar]

<P>hmmm.  no one has any insight into this?   no 'secret' beta knowledge?  </P> <P>nuttin'?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Chanliang]

Attack value is based of your slashing/piercing/crushing skills so diffrence might be there. For slashing for example you use 2h sword with maxed slashing skill your attack might be 500, then dw 2 maces for example with crushing being 20-30 points lower your attack skill will be actually lower. Also when you dw 1 weapon brings 50% of attack, dw axe and mace, with different skills and you'll notice difference. <div></div>

[Chanliang]

just check, agi/sta doesnt affect on attack on str so with dw weapons you'll easily get more str than with 2h or 1h+shield... <div></div>

[Faljar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chanliang wrote:<BR>Attack value is based of your slashing/piercing/crushing skills so diffrence might be there. For slashing for example you use 2h sword with maxed slashing skill your attack might be 500, then dw 2 maces for example with crushing being 20-30 points lower your attack skill will be actually lower. Also when you dw 1 weapon brings 50% of attack, dw axe and mace, with different skills and you'll notice difference. <BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I mentioned at the end of my original post that all my attack skills (slash/pierce/crush) were between 160-163 at the time those Attack values were captured.  I don't think 2-3 point differetials would be enuff to demonstrate a 50 point swing in attack value.  I also wrote that my weapons str bonuses were also within a point or 2 of each other, still not clearly singling out the reason for the 50 point discrepancy.  </P> <P>Where did you come across the "when you dw 1 weapon brings 50% of attack" information?  is this documented officially somewhere, or speculation?</P> <P>I had thought that this knowledge my already be out there and I would get a definitive response.  I guess maybe I will have to pin down the numbers more accurately to elicit more interest in this topic.</P> <P> </P>

[Chanliang]

<span><blockquote><hr>Faljaren wrote:<p>I mentioned at the end of my original post that all my attack skills (slash/pierce/crush) were between 160-163 at the time those Attack values were captured.  I don't think 2-3 point differetials would be enuff to demonstrate a 50 point swing in attack value.  I also wrote that my weapons str bonuses were also within a point or 2 of each other, still not clearly singling out the reason for the 50 point discrepancy.  </p> <p>Where did you come across the "when you dw 1 weapon brings 50% of attack" information?  is this documented officially somewhere, or speculation?</p> <p>I had thought that this knowledge my already be out there and I would get a definitive response.  I guess maybe I will have to pin down the numbers more accurately to elicit more interest in this topic.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> didnt read your post well then.. anyways equip just 1 dw weapon and check your attack and then second. You can try different combinations. Also str affects quite a bit to attack but 9-13 str shouldnt be 50 points... Can't really tell before I level mroe my toon and put all attack skills on same level. </span><div></div>

[Fyvoclok_Shadow]

Just a thought, but the real question might be, "what does Attack mean?"  If part of it includes damage output, there's your answer as to why you always see higher Attack numbers for DW and 2h, than 1h.  I know my Atk number always goes up when I swap in my two hander.

[Faljar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fyvoclok_Shadow wrote:<BR>Just a thought, but the real question might be, "what does Attack mean?"  If part of it includes damage output, there's your answer as to why you always see higher Attack numbers for DW and 2h, than 1h.  I know my Atk number always goes up when I swap in my two hander. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I believe it to be the same question tho, since its obvious that the weapon and the skill values are in some form a (large?) part of the Attack value calculation.  The skill values are clear because they are listed, the weapon values are not because there is not much concrete information exposed.  Why would 'damage' be evaluated in 'to hit' calculations.  How? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe the question(s) should be 'how is combat calculated?', how is Attack applied to Defense to determine a hit?  How is damage applied with respect to Attack vs Defense values?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fyvoclok_Shadow]

I don't think the "Attack" value, in your <U>persona</U>, is just your chance to hit.  When you mouse over, doesn't it say something like your total offensive ability?  I think that probably includes damage.  But you're right -- it would be helpful to know how all these things play together, so that "Attack" isn't some almost completely unintelligible number.

[Sabin the Gre]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faljaren wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>I believe it to be the same question tho, since its obvious that the weapon and the skill values are in some form a (large?) part of the Attack value calculation.  The skill values are clear because they are listed, the weapon values are not because there is not much concrete information exposed.  Why would 'damage' be evaluated in 'to hit' calculations.  How? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe the question(s) should be 'how is combat calculated?', how is Attack applied to Defense to determine a hit?  How is damage applied with respect to Attack vs Defense values?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Basically what we need to know is that the greater the attack the greater the damage on average you will do.  Also, to compare weapons look at the damage rating on them, not the damage listed/delay.  Damage rating allows you to check across weapon types.  So if your two dual wields don't add up to your two handers damage rating, then go twohander.  Also, damage on skills is affected by the type of weapon you have.  There is a positive correlation between damage rating and skill damage.  Further, damage on skills, weapons, etc is applied to mob, the mob's resists are taken into consideration then you get actual damage output. So when say a 50 Shadowknight debuffs a mob and its armor/mitigation against crushing/piercing/slashing goes down, your damage from crushing/piercing/slashing sources will increase.  So in general:</P> <P>Higher damage rating is better</P> <P>Higher attack is better</P> <P>Lower mob resists = more damage</P> <P>I know this doesn't offer specifics, but in general this should help you out.  Also, I'd suggest a parser to get an idea of how you're doing.<BR></P>

[Chanliang]

<div></div>Another possibility is with dw and 2h for berserkers that we would actually have by default higher attack with dw or 2h, that would explain 50 difference. I'll have to test it today with my lil berserker, well it might not show cause still warrior :p  So it would sort of encourage us to use 2h/dw cause berserkers are offencive tanks. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Chanliang on <span class=date_text>03-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:34 AM</span>

[Chanliang]

Asked from my paladin friend and he at level 39 has about 100 points of difference in attack while holding 1h+sword or 2h sword.  So there seems to be offensive benefit if you 2h or dw over 1h+shield. <div></div>