Nerf varification...you may have already seen this

[AlienR]

<DIV>Moorgard wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>We neither seek to keep players in the dark nor to protect information on what will or won't be fixed. While I can understand that not seeing something fixed that you consider important is upsetting, please don't be so quick to assume we have some sort of illicit motive or evil agenda. Our team takes communication seriously, and we are going to work harder at making it more consistent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We'd love for everything in the game to work perfectly, and more than that, for every feature to be met with approval by all our subscribers. Of course, the latter in particular is an unrealistic desire. Even if there wasn't a single bug in this game, players would still disagree about whether aspects of the game were "right" or not based on their personal beliefs and desires.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are often posts about how frustrating it is that bugs end up in the game, even after our QA department and external testers go through the features or content. We do work very hard to test new things added to the game, yet we can't test every possible case or circumstance that hundreds of thousands of players might uncover. That said, when bugs happen it is our responsibility, and we strive to fix them as soon as possible. Look through every one of the notes from our Live Updates (and most of the smaller hotfix updates as well) and you'll see that we address numerous issues on a regular basis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We realize that some classes are upset about balance issues that haven't been addressed since launch. There are legitimate concerns, and while we have made progress in this area, many elements still need to be looked at. The community team gathers your class issues and feedback on a daily basis as part of our reports to the team, and I (along with Blackguard and Faarwolf) spend a lot of time with members of other departments discussing bugs, opinions, and ideas expressed on these boards and other community sites.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the things we've realized is that it's nearly an impossible task for a handful of people (i.e. the community team) to respond to every bug or issue that gets posted. That's why you're going to see more members of the EQ2 team (specifically, the ones who fix a bug or address balance issues) posting about what they're doing. We really do want to improve the way communication flows from the team to the players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A big topic that will never go away (just see any EQ board for proof of that) is class balance. This is true not only because the game evolves, but because players develop an emotional investment in their characters. That attachment can make it hard for some players to objectively separate real issues from gut reaction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our initial approach with class balance has been to first look at issues on the archetype level. Changes to agility and strength, for instance, were necessary to bring scouts and fighters more in line with where we want them to be. Secondly, we've been fixing bugs with spells and combat arts, because you can't judge the full potential of a given profession if their abilities are not functioning correctly. At the same time, we've addressed some clearly broken aspects of particular classes that simply couldn't be ignored. In the case of berserkers, this meant a reduction in potency; in the case of wizards and warlocks, this meant a considerable increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Among the balance issues we'll be looking into now and in the near future:</DIV> <UL> <LI>Summoner pets, including the usefulness of various types of pets and the overall DPS and utility of mages. <LI>Priest balancing, including: wards vs. reactives vs. regens, both for effectiveness and aggro generation; warden vs. fury balance, etc. <LI><FONT color=#ff6600>Evaluating melee damage to ensure that scouts outdamage fighters.</FONT> <LI>Giving every artisan profession new and useful things to make, as well as ways to make their existing goods more desirable.</LI></UL> <P>(If I didn't list your class or issue above, please don't assume we are ignoring you. Those are just a few of the big-picture balance issues we're looking at, not a comprehensive list.)</P> <P>And yes, we will continue to fix bugged spells and arts. But keep in mind that even when we get to the point where nearly every ability functions correctly, there will still be people on the boards who feel that particular aspects of their class are broken or imbalanced. That's simply a fact of MMO life: there will never, ever be a massively multiplayer game of this complexity in which every subscriber feels all aspects are balanced. Because, at the end of the day, balance is not a matter of numbers, but one of perception. These games are not math equations, no matter how many calculations lurk below the surface. They're living, breathing microcosms into which thousands and thousands of players make varying degrees of emotional investment.</P> <P>Our job, then, is not just "find bug A, fix bug A, report bug A is fixed," but rather to respond to you on a personal, direct level. It's something we continually strive to do better, both on the community team and as a company. At the same time, we know that ultimately the proof comes not in our words, but in our actions. That's why we will keep on doing what we're doing: adding new stuff, making fixes, expanding the game world. We'll make mistakes, but we'll work hard to fix them. Hopefully if we keep on doing that, more and more of you will see that we're serious about making EverQuest II the best game we possibly can. Your feedback is a crucial part of that process, and it makes a difference in the development of this game every single day.</P> <P>===========================<BR>Moorgard<BR>EverQuest II Community Guy</P> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Can they sap any more fun out of the game for fighters than they already have?  Tell ya what, just turn me into a brick please....I don't want to attack anything....I just want the name Sony printed on one side of me so I can keep all mobs very upset with me at all times.  Thanks.</P></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>They will more then likely increase scouts damage like they did with Wizard's before nerfing anyone. Personally, i group with scouts who are doing 250 dps ( Rangers / Assassins ) at lvl 44, cause they know what there doing, with wizards they are doing 300 dps also, there is no way i can push that number, even with a group encounter. Those number's are generated on single ^^ mobs, not group encounters. Wizards own the King of the DPS title on group encounters hands down now, there is no denying that. If you group with a scout / wizard and you beating them in DPS ( as a Berserker ) then you have a player who doesnt know what he is doing probally or is being lazy, its that simple. The problem with Scouts is, alot dont use or apply posions, and thats a big part of there DPS, ask a scout when you are grouped with them and see if they use posions, i bet more dont then do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they nerf Fighter DPS, they will only make the problem worse. In my honest opion, they <STRONG><U>NEED</U></STRONG> to get Combat Arts, Abilities and Spells working close to 100% before doing <STRONG><U>ANY</U></STRONG> adjustments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV>

[Styk]

what idiot 1 starred this thread.... Im leaning towards them nerfing fighter dps as a whole.... predator and rogue types get the use of poisons.... that is a huge part of their dps... Yet they are still whining about their dps even thou they have such huge utility...IMO if they dont use poisons .... its their own fault for having weak dps.

[Dnip]

<DIV>Too bad using poisons isn't cheap...</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>what idiot 1 starred this thread.... Im leaning towards them nerfing fighter dps as a whole.... predator and rogue types get the use of poisons.... that is a huge part of their dps... Yet they are still whining about their dps even thou they have such huge utility...<BR><BR>IMO if they dont use poisons .... its their own fault for having weak dps.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Exactally, thats the whole problem, SoE are more then likely just assuming that every scout out there is using posions, its a bit more tricker then just hit auto attack and pump out 200 - 250+ DPS, postioning, posions, combat abilities all roll into the DPS factor when playing a scout, if you dont get them right, then you wont do the damage and you need to learn how to play your class.</P> <P>I agree 100% Styker, they get <STRONG><U>alot</U></STRONG> of utility, and if they dont know how to play their own class making it look like we are out DPSing them, then thats there own fault, i cant see the justice in why they are looking into scouts damage output when its fine the way it is, as long as the person knows what he is doing.</P> <P>I'll say it again though, SoE <STRONG><U>NEED</U></STRONG> to fix Combat Arts, Abilities and Spells before they go and adjust anything else, cause whats the point in adjusting a class when Combat Arts, Abilities and Spells are broken and they could be hindering that class in the first place ?</P> <P>SoE, this is just my suggestion, but id take a long hard look into this next adjustment, nerfing the Fighter class isnt the answer, fixing Combat Arts, Abilities and Spells is part of the fix, then maybe evaulating scouts once thiers and everyone elses Combat Arts, Abilities and Spells are working close to 100%. Until then, at the present moment, the Scouts i have grouped with way out do me in the DPS department, and Wizzie's blow me off the chart, so where is the problem?</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dniper wrote:<BR> <DIV>Too bad using poisons isn't cheap...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Thats the price u pay for being a Scout, you want to do <STRONG><U>huge</U></STRONG> melee DPS, u gotta buy the <STRONG><U>posions</U></STRONG> and <STRONG><U>arrows</U></STRONG>, and besides, every guild has a Alcy, im sure they would be willing to sell you the posions at cost, to cover their costs for making them. Do you think a Tanks armor is cheap? Tanks armor is posions and arrows to you, we are all in the same boat cost wise for anything related to our class, wether it be food, drink, spells, adepts, masters, arrows, posions, armour, jewerly, weapons, you name it, we all gotta pay for it.</P> <P>Im acually surprised you mentioned Posions cost too much, i always hear Scouts complaining about the cost of Arrows more then i do posions, cause everyone knows the higher quaility arrows, the more damage inflicted with a bow right? and where does some of the best DPS come from a Ranger? So lets take a look here, a lvl 40+ Scout that is using Tin arrows and not using posions, gee i wonder why we beat them in DPS. :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>Im sure SoE are looking into every factor on why some Scouts seem to do the right amount of DPS and why the others dont, its pretty clear to me why they do and dont.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 PM</span>

[Lechac]

I know I one starred this thread, cause low IQ whiners who call every dev move a nerf won't get us anywhere. Little boys like you calling people idiots aren't helping either.

[Ambergr]

<DIV>The client ate my first reply, so this is probably less tolerant and shorter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggesting that predators do 250 to 300 dps at 44 if using indium arrows and player poison is wrong to an extent that makes me believe the poster pulled the figures from his rectum.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using heirophant's crook a melee class can routinely outdamage a scout using the best weapons , poisons and arrows available. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Narrowing it down a predator is supposed to offer damage with miniscule utility. Currently the damage is less than any int caster barring the enchanter types. It is also less  than any fighter subclass. It is even less than the rogue classes and under certain circumstances the bard classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the DPS is currently totally messed up - crying about changes that were obviously coming just shows an intensely narrow minded approach to affairs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually more tolerant than I thought it would be</DIV>

[Fros]

<DIV>Poison dont work as well as you think it does...it wont land on epic boss mob , has limited number of proc before it is used up etc. Believe it or not, using poison and arrow is alot more expensive than what you think. Dont forget scout get to upgrade our armor too, it isnt just tank.</DIV> <DIV>Alot of scout utiliy isnt that great and is shared with other class, like evac (all scout) with few class like wizard shadowknight and such , group invis (rogue) fury and illusionist , pathfinding (all scout) in someway...shaman. </DIV> <DIV>If ranger is to do their best dps, it is even more expensive, they can burn through few stack of arrow easy in 1 nice day of xping. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Frosin on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:08 AM</span>

[CherobylJ]

<DIV>Too early to say how they will address this so i'm reserving "the freak out and holy war on scouts" stuff.  I'd hope the scouts visting here will show the same courtesy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they increase Scouts DPS this is a win.  If they nerf ours, with there a being a good 15-18 broken class spells atm, well that would just plain suck.  You'd hope they think this through before implementing any change.</DIV>

[AlienR]

<DIV>This thread has the word nerf in the title because that's what it is...good or bad it's a down grade adjustment no matter how you look at it.  Int casters were upgraded and rightfully so....I was and still am very happy for those classes and welcome the new found dps.  I think the big issue that is being overlooked here is the subsequent loss of tank dps and serious loss of aggro management capabilities.  A large factor in hate management is dps, considering that taunts don't maintain sufficient aggro in exp groups or raids as they should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For instance, I and my other raid leaders consistently choose the same well equipped guardian to tank for our raids.  Every taunt he has is of adept 3 quality but he still loses aggro quite frequently to scouts and monks on our raids.  This problem has been worse recently and it's apparently due to the fact that my tides of war no longer buffs his haste and his dps is considerably lower than before.   I also noticed our pally having the same trouble with me in the MT group last night, even with his hate shields at adept 3.  The point is, even with the loss of the haste from tides of war the dps drop was great enough to cause major aggro issues.  A down grade on fighter auto attack damage will have the same effect, mark my words.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't see any reason why scout classes shouldn't be upgraded to fix this problem.  Burst damage for scouts shouldn't be modified because that's already high enough but with the combat system we have, there isn't any way around it.  Scouts should have their melee skills improved by 10% at the least to bump them above fighters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those of you who think that scouts are doing more dps than you are in "your" groups might need to take a closer look.  The only reason a scout will out damage you in "your" groups is because you are either tanking (being mitigated) or you aren't being very proactive about your dps.  Scouts in your groups still have your proc buffs if you have anarchy which helps them a bunch...but they no longer have your group haste.  On any mob that takes longer than 30 secs to kill, you should be doing more dps than a scout as a berserker.  With all our self haste, offense and proc buffs...using a solid 2 hander yields serious dps.  This is not to mention a multi mob encounter is our bread and butter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, if fighter auto melee damage is down graded (nerfed)...a tank that is already being mitigated will have no way to maintain solid aggro from scouts, monks and especially int casters.   The only other answer (and probably the right one)....if the devs decide this is the only way they know how to fix scouts.....then they need to considerably upgrade the hate generated by taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333>AND YES SONY NEEDS TO FIX SPELLS, COMBAT ARTS, BUFFS AND ITEM STAT ALLOCATION BEFORE MAKING ANY FURTHER CLASS ADJUSTMENTS</FONT></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ambergris wrote:<BR> <DIV>The client ate my first reply, so this is probably less tolerant and shorter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggesting that predators do 250 to 300 dps at 44 if using indium arrows and player poison is wrong to an extent that makes me believe the poster pulled the figures from his rectum.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using heirophant's crook a melee class can routinely outdamage a scout using the best weapons , poisons and arrows available. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Narrowing it down a predator is supposed to offer damage with miniscule utility. Currently the damage is less than any int caster barring the enchanter types. It is also less  than any fighter subclass. It is even less than the rogue classes and under certain circumstances the bard classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the DPS is currently totally messed up - crying about changes that were obviously coming just shows an intensely narrow minded approach to affairs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Actually more tolerant than I thought it would be</DIV> <P> <HR> <P></P></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok let me begin, for starters Heriophants crook, you suggest any melee class can out damage a scout using it, if thats the case why dont you use one? Do you run a parser? Do you or your friends run a parser and compare results? If you do or did you will see that Heriophants crook isnt as good as what you say it is, the proc isnt as good as you think it is, lets see, <STRONG><U>5% chance</U></STRONG> to cast 52 - 64 damage, hmmm yeah, we are going to out damage scouts with that. I have one, i dont use it, why? cause its looks like a branch i ripped of the tree in my back yard and also cause it isnt that great, its a nice caster / priest weapon for a little added DPS from them. Everyone raves on about how the Heirophant Crook is the " magic weapon ", " its the best ", well it aint that great, its basically the same as a EBBC, same damage, proc is a little better on EBBC though, just not a AoE. Also what you are saying is, Guardians can even out damage a Scout using it, I dare you to post that on the Guard forum and see what you get, they wont be as forgiving as we are here. I do more DPS with SSoY and SBD then i do with the Heirophant crook, only thing is, i eat more Riposte's with the dual weilds then i do with the Crook, but thats what Parry is for. Sure the proc from Crook adds up over time, but thats exactally right, over time. With the right group set up, a group encounter is over in less then 45 sec's to 1 min 20 secs, parse how many procs you get off on mobs in 1 min 20 seconds, i can tell you know from facts, its not enough to even break 200 damage.</P> <P>Now onto the magic numbers, 250 DPS from a lvl 44, i think he might have been lvl 45 Ranger, he was doing around 180-200 at lvl 41, reguardless of what you think, he knows his stuff, he strives to get max DPS out of his char reguardless the situation, this isnt made up material, this is facts. All the melee class's in my guild are parser junkies, we dont say numbers unless we see them constantly, and on mobs that are blue / white / yellow and above. 250 - 300 DPS is what i said wizards do. If you arent a good enough tank to hold agro of a Mage so they can let it fly, then you might want to re-think your class selection.</P> <P>From the attitude of your last reply in your post, sounds to me you retired your 45 ranger because you ; </P> <OL> <LI>Discovered it cost to much to pump out the big numbers, cause of the price of posions and arrows, which by the way you dont <STRONG><U>NEED</U></STRONG> to use indium to push out 200 DPS, but it does make it easier.</LI> <LI>Have to work too hard to pump out the big numbers, cause i know for a fact all the Scout work one has to do to push big numbers, can make one sweat, literally, lots of clicking, lots of power burning, lots of damage = big numbers. Where on the other hand, Wizards dont have to strive as hard as a Scout to push it out, they just chain dot and nuke, cause by the time there DoTs have wore of, there ready to go for another cycle, hell, wizards DoT's are ready to go again even before the DoT wears out. At the end of that, they chew a leg or arm off to recharge their power.</LI></OL> <P>These are the two main reasons a Scout doesnt do the required amount of DPS he should be doing in a group, its got nothing to do with they <STRONG><U>CANT</U></STRONG> do it, its all to do with they <STRONG><U>CANT</U></STRONG> afford it, or dont want to becaue it requires to much effort, and too much staying on the ball.</P> <P>Only reason you think we are crying is because we challenged you with a reason for why you need a damage increasement, and from seeing the guild Scouts im guilded with, i dont believe you do need one, sorry to be so harsh, but thats what i see, and alot of others see, but they dont just click auto attack, and then sneak attack for a big one off burst damage a fight, then kick back, click a combat art here and there, /yawn /looks at television /looks at comp screen, <STRONG>oh</STRONG> we still fighting, better click another combat art, then mob dies, then numbers come up, oh my, Monk does 170 DPS, Ranger / Assassin does 130 DPS, whats this, porpostrious, parser must be wrong, yeah right. Its called laziness. I will be honest and say, i think it should be cheaper for you to be able to pump out the numbers though. The only reason a Berserker will <STRONG><U>*look*</U></STRONG> like we out damaged a Scout is because of the amount of damage we can do to a encounter, more mobs = more numbers = *Generate* what looks like more DPS, but on the single mobs that you target <STRONG><U>via</U></STRONG> the MA during the encounter, you do more single target damage. When your fighting mobs with 20-30k hp, the small amout of damage we are doing to the overall encounter isnt that great, i mean sure, again, it all stacks up over time, but on a single mob, let a Guardian tank a mob just for a <STRONG><U>test trial</U></STRONG>, a ^^ single mob, get the Scout to stand side by side to <STRONG><U>ANY</U></STRONG> Fighter class, and see who comes out on top, i can asure you 110%, that the Scout will <STRONG><U>ALWAYS</U></STRONG> come out on top, always. As for your comment about Troubadors / Dirges out damaging a Preadator, lol, if they were in your group and you were getting their buffs and they out Damaged you, then.............. I honestly do not know what to say to you, cause you were doing something seriously wrong.</P> <P>To wrap this all up, only thing Scouts will get out of what ever happens to them, is it will be made easier for them to make the big numbers happen, instead of having to fork out 10 - 20 gold or even more depending on how much you play a week, on arrows and posions, which i think is what Scouts want from what i understand, cheaper posions and arrows, or make it easier to do the big numbers with out having to spend all their cash on the items needed to do it. Which in turn brings us all the way back to my original reply, they will more then likely just enhance the damage done by a certain % each art, till Scouts can easily do damage like there suppose to with out the giant amount of cost envolved, and so much effort needed to do it. Just like they did with Wizards and Warlocks. So then, in months to come and they slowly decide to <STRONG><U>fix</U></STRONG> our Combat Arts, Abilities and Spells to work as mechanically designed, they will then have to nerf the class's, AGAIN, for being too powerful down the track OR buff more class's, AGAIN, which then in turn will leave mobs underpowered against us and they will have to then re-evlauate mob HP / Power / DPS / AC etc etc, and buff those AGAIN OR they could leave it as it is, <STRONG><U>FIX</U></STRONG> Combat Arts, Abilities and Spells, THEN let it roll for awhile to test it in its ture design, THEN make a decsion on what to do. I'll let you decide what happens, cause i already got a feeling what will happen first.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:03 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Frosin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Poison dont work as well as you think it does...it wont land on epic boss mob </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Frosin on <SPAN class=date_text>03-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:08 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Neither does our high damage combat arts, " Your target is too powerful " is your friend in raids, not just for Scouts or Fighters, but for every archtype.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV>

[Fros]

<DIV>Amazing how all scout's post here got the lovely 1 star, wonder if I will get the same star ranking if I posted on my berserker...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont want to see tank dps nerfed, it is fine as it is right now, but scout dps really need some work there but more toward balancing vs wizard and warlock than balancing vs the tank. Just increase scout dps and improve tank taunt , which is somewhat a problem right now with wizard / warlock getting more agro with their new found power. The soon to come adjustment on priest heal agro might cause some problem too for eg. when the reactive from cleric might just spam heal so fast on some multi mob encounter and generate huge agro for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Frosin on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[Super Du]

<DIV>nah, we need a nerf in our dps... it's crazy to have 2-3x of wizards dps on epiq mobs with 10+ minute bashing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i mean not a single class comes anywhere NEAR the dps output we give...</DIV> <DIV>don't expect it to last long tho...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and YES it's true, run your own test next time</DIV>

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Frosin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Amazing how all scout's post here got the lovely 1 star, wonder if I will get the same star ranking if I posted on my berserker...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont want to see tank dps nerfed, it is fine as it is right now, but scout dps really need some work there but more toward balancing vs wizard and warlock than balancing vs the tank. Just increase scout dps and improve tank taunt , which is somewhat a problem right now with wizard / warlock getting more agro with their new found power. The soon to come adjustment on priest heal agro might cause some problem too for eg. when the reactive from cleric might just spam heal so fast on some multi mob encounter and generate huge agro for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Frosin on <SPAN class=date_text>03-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:58 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Heh I 5 starred you just to show we arent all mean SOBs /grin<BR>

[Diabol]

<DIV>Im gonna have to say the problem is lazy/stupid scouts.  I group consistantly with an assassin who is regularly in the top 10 damagers, and he always outdamages me significantly, regardless of the encounter makeup.   I don't slack either, I'll burn power at the same rate he does most of the time, with anarchy, bloodrage, and greater fury proccing away.  My observation is he knows how to use his skills, he regular gets off multiple hidden strikes per encounter, and makes use of his 1 or 2 crit bow shots, and is all over the HO's. </DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Super Du wrote:<BR> <DIV>nah, we need a nerf in our dps... it's crazy to have 2-3x of wizards dps on epiq mobs with 10+ minute bashing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i mean not a single class comes anywhere NEAR the dps output we give...</DIV> <DIV>don't expect it to last long tho...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and YES it's true, run your own test next time</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>This is the reason it *looks* like we out dps wizards on raids, and yes we do out DPS wizards on raids for the simple fact, there pumping Healers to keep them full power while Melee eats the mob down, its called stratergy.</P> <P>People seem to be gettng confused with the numbers a parser generates, let me put a simple example in here that might help people to understand how it works. As everyone knows, Berserkers get alot of AE combat arts that do damage to all mobs in a encounter. Now these take a long time to cast, most around, if not all take around the 4 second mark, that means in that period of time, we arent doing <STRONG><U>any</U></STRONG> damage what so ever to any mobs unless its via ripsote. Now when the AE's hit, there doing say for example 200 damage to 5 mobs, 200 x 5 = 1000 damage over the encounter, NOT to one mob, now the parser is reading that as one hit to one mob, its not spreading it out over a series of mobs, now include our single target DPS we get in while we wait for those AE spells to repop, which is usally a 30 - 45 second wait, which is enough time to get some melee in there to make the number look even bigger, then we have Ripsote's that add to the number also, which when you have 5 mobs wailing on you, you can get a good deal of ripsote's going, but a good berserker knows how to spread it out so he can get a good number of ae's in during the encounter of a fight, making it look like we are doing multiple Back Stabs to the parser which in turn *generates* such a big number. Now, in the time its just taken us to cast all these AE damaging spells, a Scout class has landed 1000 damage to a single mob with in the encounter, so to make myself a bit more clearer, with out a encounter, a Berserker is down the bottom of the parser list for DPS, its just that simple, give the Berserker back his encounter linked mobs, and watch the change in numbers, but those numbers arent generated because of damage done to ONE target, its made because of overall damage done to the entire encounter. Now, get a Guardian, or Brawler to tank, while you stand side by side with a Scout and try and out DPS him from a DPS role, now change the Brawler with the Gaurd, stick him in the back with the both of you, see what happens, now you go in the front and tank while you parse the Brawler, Scout and Guard. I really dont have to tell anyone the outcome, seriously guys think about it now, or go do the test yourself. make sure one of, if not all have a parser program so you can all get a reading and compare, that way there wont be no, your parser is wrong smack talk.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:32 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diaboliq wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im gonna have to say the problem is lazy/stupid scouts.  I group consistantly with an assassin who is regularly in the top 10 damagers, and he always outdamages me significantly, regardless of the encounter makeup.   I don't slack either, I'll burn power at the same rate he does most of the time, with anarchy, bloodrage, and greater fury proccing away.  My observation is he knows how to use his skills, he regular gets off multiple hidden strikes per encounter, and makes use of his 1 or 2 crit bow shots, and is all over the HO's. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Thats exactally 100% correct, thats exactally what it is, i will admit, a Scout looks harder to play then most class's, simple because of the amount they have to spend and do to make it happen, dont get me wrong, all class's have it hard, to do the job and to do it good requires concentration and skill, anyone can sit there, click auto attack, click a combat art here and there, and then cry underpowered when numbers get printed up cause they think that they should be top of the DPS class because of Auto Attack alone. Not a smart way to play, do you see a Mage standing there swinging his dagger crying about not being able to DPS like a Fighter in auto attack mode? do you see a Priest swinging there Hammer crying out for DPS the same as a Scout in auto attack mode? No.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:43 AM</span>

[Styk]

Go Ahead scouts 1 star me for all i care.... just admit that you are whining hard about your dps not because it is lacing but for the most part due to some people not playing there class to the fullest, i mean [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if we get nerf like i think is gonna happen then i think we should get a group SoW,invis,tracking and evac also.... ? Oh wait im not a scout? Play your class like it suppose to be played and dont get made because tanks are dpsing to there fullest and make scouts ( the ones who aren't playing them right ok not all scouts) look silly

[RufusDeMar]

<P>If SOE thinks that scouts should have a higher overall DPS than me (berserker), I guess I don't have a problem with that, IF they do it right.  </P> <P>Since DPS generates hate, SoE would need to increase the effectiveness of all taunts depending on how much of a boost scouts get.  I usually group with at least 2 swashbucklers in my guild and I'll tell ya what...I love having them there! Pulling mobs into the group is like dropping a beanie baby in a blender.  </P> <P>But I'm assuming that they wouldn't lower fighter DPS, which I'm hoping they don't because I would not be happy =(</P> <P>As it stands now, using a shield, I can hold aggro with 3 swashbucklers all higher level than me with just using taunts(not hold the line).  I have no problem doing that since that's my role in a group.</P> <P>But if the scouts want to take aggro they can, and there's *almost* nothing I can do about it, But so can a wizard or a healer.</P> <P>Good Post Moorgard</P> <P>EDIT (forgot to add this)</P> <P>PS - They also need to fix abilities/spells FIRST</P><p>Message Edited by RufusDeMarko on <span class=date_text>03-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:18 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Thats the price u pay for being a Scout, you want to do <STRONG><U>huge</U></STRONG> melee DPS, u gotta buy the <STRONG><U>posions</U></STRONG> and <STRONG><U>arrows</U></STRONG>, and besides, every guild has a Alcy, im sure they would be willing to sell you the posions at cost, to cover their costs for making them. Do you think a Tanks armor is cheap? Tanks armor is posions and arrows to you, we are all in the same boat cost wise for anything related to our class, wether it be food, drink, spells, adepts, masters, arrows, posions, armour, jewerly, weapons, you name it, we all gotta pay for it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>But a tanks armor is a once a tier cost, just like a scouts.</P> <P>All classes need food/drink.</P> <P>All classes need adept/masters.</P> <P>But currently only scouts *HAVE* to purchase a consumable item (in a ranger's case, two) in order to fill their spot in a group.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[-Aonein-]

<P>That was my point Gage, Scouts need to be able to do the numbers easier, like a Mage / Wizard OR be able to obtain cheaper arrows, like i said, from what i have talked about to Scouts in the guild and read on scout forums, this is what they want, posions they can get fro free, they just farm the materials and ask a Alcy to make them, or make it themselves if they already have a Alcy.</P> <P>At the current moment a scout has to work the hardest to make a decent number to beat any melee class in DPS, and they have to do it 100% of the time and with more then just combat arts, there a very technical class to play, and if you dont know how to do it, then you arent going to do the numbers you wish to see, its as simple as that.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>yeah, i agree, for the most part, wizards will be the only class that can be played at medium efficiency and still achieve the numbers desired to keep them in rank with the **desired** dps rankings.</P> <P>every other archetypes classes have to play at optimum efficiency and concentration to put up the numbers considering that all fighters cant do Ho's without taunting in fights, beserkers have alot of attacks that use taunts built in, and so forth which causes problems pulling aggro. same goes for monks/bruisers that use certain weapons that hit for maybe a string of high attacks on top of thier combat arts.</P> <P>scouts do have a very complicated string to keep up the high dps, but thats not considered a trade off for anything... its just a perk for being a scout. For some reason im starting to think that they are trying to thin out the fighter types into other archetypes or something with this rendition of balance... Since doing dps isnt a perk for being a beserker, cause you can tank...</P> <P>or maybe they think that the ability to tank = solo ability?? </P> <P>heck i dont know what they are thinking on this, but by the end of this, to have a decent playing experience **in game** we might need to take half of all the fighters and go make scouts and wizards...as dumb as that sounds. it seems like by the end of all this = that will be the only alternative.</P>

[Styk]

Gage i disagree with the fact that they have to buy potions etc as a trade off for one simple thing..... any scout can get to places a fighter cant without a group..... they can save an entire group, they can give an entire group a great run speed modifier + dps , arrow costs are alot and should be corrected but they dont need any other kind of boost besides ALL of their spells and combat skills shouild be working properly.... I see that im at a 1 star and i still dont give a #$# lol.... I have a swashie alt ( he is lvl 35 ) i know how it is to play a scout class and how to inflict huge # of dps.... I just think that they shouldnt be given dps to them on a platter <div></div>

[Alles]

<DIV>Some classes you can play while watching a movie. Some you can't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A scout to play to their fullest must be there 100% of the time, just as a healer is. Yes they can auto attack, but at that point its time to put the game away or re-roll a wizard. When you roll a Scout class you know you will need arrows, posion. You Have to be willing to do positionals, stealth attacks. It is a difficult class to play effectively. Thats why I enjoy it. If you wanted an easy life play a wizard a press a button here or there and watch whatevrer. But don't whine that you aren't doing what damage you should be when half the time your watching re-runs of knight rider.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dashel]

<div></div>Look at it this way: if given the choice, would you rather do 100 DPS under normal circumstances and be capped there, or do 80-90 DPS under normal circumstances but have the option to do up to 130 -140 DPS if you buy poisons and arrows.  I think thats the model that Sony is shooting for, obviously with whatever numbers they have in mind. Having said that, the consumables should be reasonably priced, but you dont have to use the best stuff every fight either.  Perhaps have some arrows or poisons drop of raid mobs.  Perhaps have a repeatable quest or two for those items.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by Dashel on <span class=date_text>03-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>if they wanted to do that then they could just increase the proc on the poisons, so that they last longer and run out slower and dont take as much as far as price...</P> <P>but dear dear scout guys, you do know that any REAL increase in attack damage will put you in line with wizards? for the most part in long fights, they say that a wizard is around 230 and a scout is at 200-210.</P> <P>i think adjusting recast timers for scouts and shaving about 10 seconds all of them would do the trick and give them the increase they *need*. </P>