Tanking raids?

[bmcd]

<DIV>Can you guys tank raids also?  I keep reading that only guardians can do well in those situations, of course that is the guardian board.  MY guild only has a few low 20's guardians but we have zerkers, paladins and monks all in their 30's.  Are we setting ourselves up for failure with no guardians, or are we good to go with zerkers?  Thanks for any imput on this.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>In one simple answer, Yes Guardian's are the more prefered choice on Raid's for MT for the simple fact there combat skill's and abilitie's give t hem the power to do just that, in the event a acounter require's add's controlled or the MT goes down and there is no Guardian's left, then that where we come in, or a Pallie or SK, then a Monk if it has turely hit the fan in a big way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bare in mind and try not to get caught up in the heat on the Guardian board's with the feud agianst Gaurd's and Monk's, and also, try not to let anyone else in the game try and turn you off what <STRONG><U>you</U></STRONG> want too be, it's all about personal choice, dont let other people who have no clue what on earth there even remotely talking about guide you in your decision, you will do nothing but regret it later. Here is a simple rule to follow, You want to be a good <STRONG><U>Defensive</U></STRONG> tank, then roll a Guardian, you want to be a good <STRONG><U>Offensive</U></STRONG> tank, roll a Berserker, it cant get anymore simpler then that, Berserker make a great off tank and support tank on raid's, great for DPS and group Utility also there is no denying that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is a quote i hold ture to Moorgard's word, and i believe this is what SoE turely aims for :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Moorgard wrote :</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>The fact that all subclasses have different ways of fulfilling their primary roles means there will be some circumstances where one subclass has an advantage. Rough edges like this are intended, as they add to diversity and can sometimes drive the passions of players. Without those differences, we might as well never go beyond the four adventure archetypes because subclasses would all be exactly the same.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that too me make's perfect sense, diversity is the main aim in this game and a group can be rolled into many format's and in a very diverse way, it doesnt always have to be Guard for MT and Templar as main healer, it can be any class in a group situation, or lvl 50+ ^^^ group x2 mob's any Fighter class can handle those, but on the lvl 50+ ^^^ group x3 and x4 encounter's that's where it's Guardian country, and too me, i fell they deserve it for the amount of utility they really give up, take a look at the skill chart for a Guardian, there as plain as can be, Taunt's and Defensive buff's, that's all they got. Sure they get some group utility, but nothing compared to what the rest of the fighter class get's. Also keep in mind that it's not like your going to be raiding every day, day in day out, this game is all about casual gaming and having fun, gone are the day's of raiding for 8 - 10 hour's a day 7 day's a week ( lord know's i miss it ), but this is what gaming will slowly become, power gamer's crying for more power and the casual to more constant people loving every moment of it, cause that's all it is, power gamer's crying for more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Read the thread on the guardian, but i warn you know, try and resist from posting on it before you read the entire thread, dont get caught up in something you dont fully understand, cause there is more to the argument then just utility > defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=6832" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=6832</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 42th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[xrippe]

<DIV>It will be a sad day if you ever see a paly or SK tank better than a monk.  That just doesnt happen.  Ive grouped with many SKs and palys and they can not tank better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yenyang Angrydragon</DIV> <DIV>Ogre Monk </DIV> <DIV>Kithicore</DIV>

[Scarax]

Yes berserkers can be raid tanks. At least that has held true for me for 34 levels. I've been on countless raids against all sorts of boss mobs and never had a problem. You just put on your shield and grab your assault axe and do the best you can. I'm not saying that Guardians can't do it better, but it's not always about having the best class or tools for a situation, it's more about doing the best you can with what you have. How many "perfect" groups have you seen try to tackle something and just get wasted? Then you see some ragtag group of oddball race and classes just come in and own everything? It's about skill more than class. If you're a smart berserker you can be MT in ANY situtation in the game I've seen so far to date at level 34. I expect that holds true through 50. Others here would know better than I.

[snapgor]

<DIV>I have MT'd 2x mobs like Alangria, King Zatan etc. flawlessly.. haven't had the opportunity to do 4xs cause guards are prefered in my guild.. but from my experience we are very capable</DIV>

[Vurin]

My two cents on 50+ raids and tanking them with a 50 zerker is thus: Having the right clases in the "Main tank" group is key for the easy win with a gaurdian, its even more so the case when you're using a berserker. If you'd have a bruiser AC buff a gaurdian for a mob, don't expect a zerker to be able to do it without those same buffs. I find most people use zerkers when there's a shortage of people, and thats why they have limited success. The Zerker has less support than your usual maintanking guardian has, obviously they are goign to perform poorly in those conditons.In short know what abilities stack to maximize your defense/parry and make sure you get proper support before trying to tank.

[Typhoon_El_Ni]

<DIV>ok i am still low in level yes, but i studied the tree of zerker and guardian quite closely.  My first thougth was the following:  Zerker main tank in any case, why? well a main tank has to keep agro and zerkers can keep agro better then guardians.  The role of the guardian is to guard the main tank?  Maybe i am completely wrong, but maybe there is some truth in this thought, i dont know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The more experienced players will tell.</DIV>

[Styk]

Well after seeing in the Pally boards that a Paladin successfully tanked a 51 ^^^ x4 raid mob, i no longer believe that Guards should be the only raid tank.... Guards require the same support team as any other tank class would.... i think Berserkers can raid tank as well, just give it a little time

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>well the thing is that guadians get exclusive pull on skills that increase thier defense directly - but yes a beserker adds a nice addition with his buffs and especially the haste stacking between zerkers and enchanters- attack speed equals dps = kills so a 30 min raid fight could be effectively be made into a 20-25 min fight. either way on a personal note - yes im positive it could be done but the attack skills would have to go and be purely used for aggro management and slip in a few here and there but they can tend to be a manasink in longer fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but on a side note for xripperx - yes they do tank better than us at end game because of the brutal ac difference that heavy armor provides  = their buffs and abilities are all but useless at end game but hey... we are talking about tanking which means really only that they  take damage mitigate it well and control a mob through taunts/damage. = tanking in a nutshell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>which thier heavy armor provides on an external level - the only thing that changes between them and a guardian is the innate internal ability to mitigate damage better through thier skills and thier 800+ shield factor shields for blocking etc.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>A Guardian and a Berserker, wearing the exact same armor and shield at the same level, have the exact <STRONG><U>same</U></STRONG> base mitigation, it's why we both come from the warrior tree, what make's us different is one is a Defensive tank and the other is Offensive, which is why a Guardian will tank better then a Berserker. Berserker's get better agro control then a Guardian by far, probally the best agro controlling class in the game, tank wise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker's make for a great group utility too if not playing a MT role, can increase haste for the whole group, increase chance to avoid on the MT and do good DPS wether it be a single mob or group encounter's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Styker, atm there is certain group x4 encounter's that are a push over and some that are very challenging, it's upto SoE to increase the encounter's of the one's that are a push over to balance it, but a lvl 51 ^^^ group x4 mob should almost be tankable by any Fighter class, but it's when they become lvl 54+ ^^^ group x4 you gotta start to worry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 42th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV>

[Styk]

Aoenin if you look over at the Paladin boards, a Paladin tanked a lvl 51 ^^^ x4 mob with 3 groups.... A Guard isnt a raid tank WITHOUT a supporting cast.... After seeing a paladin do it with 3 groups, that shows to me that with a proper raid setup ANY plate tank class can MT in raids ( i cant say from brawlers at this point , have no knowledge of the archtype ) Strykr Destructicus45 Berserker AB Server

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Yes i understand what your saying Styker, but the problem is SoE need to revamp the epic encounter's, any group x 4 encounter should be tough, no matter what lvl tank, gear, or set up / stratergy you have, it should be a tough battle, especially when the mob is over lvl 50+.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 42th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV>

[Dashel]

<blockquote><hr>Styker wrote:Aoenin if you look over at the Paladin boards, a Paladin tanked a lvl 51 ^^^ x4 mob with 3 groups.... A Guard isnt a raid tank WITHOUT a supporting cast.... After seeing a paladin do it with 3 groups, that shows to me that with a proper raid setup ANY plate tank class can MT in raids ( i cant say from brawlers at this point , have no knowledge of the archtype ) Strykr Destructicus45 Berserker AB Server<hr></blockquote>Hmm thats a very good point, and I now wonder what classes would make up that support group. I see bruiser mentioned a lot for the AC buff, any others? Would Zerkers fit in there for Vehemence, or would they be in a melee DPS group for the stacking haste buff?

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Aye they do which is a major problem with high end tanking atm with raiding, a Bruiser can give a main tank :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These were taken from a level 48 Brusier :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Shrug Off Master I :</U></STRONG></DIV> <UL> <LI>Increase avoidance of target by 51% <LI>Increase AC of target by 2000</LI></UL> <P><STRONG><U>Overtaking Blows Adept I :</U></STRONG></P> <UL> <LI>Increase avoidance of target by 40% <LI>Increase agility of caster by 10</LI></UL> <P><STRONG><U>Staggering Stance Adept I :</U></STRONG></P> <UL> <LI>Increase avoidance if target by 26% <LI>Increase agility of caster by 14</LI></UL> <P> </P> <P>This is just some of the skill's that just a Bruiser can give a MT, then you have a Berserker, Monk and a few other class's that can add a benefit to a MT.</P> <P>So with the the right MT group, you can easily bring down the most dangerous mob with little effort, like has been clearly pointed out on the Guardian board's, but the problem isnt the class's, its buff stacking, they fixed agility, they fixed strength, now they will have to fine tweak a few other buff's like avoidance stacking.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 42th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[SomeDudeCRO]

From experience, I have seen 50 zerkers tank 2x mobs fine. You guys need to be careful to minimize the amount of riposte damage you take which increases with your megahaste <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And obviously, using a shield and a slow onehander.I haven't tanked any high end raids yet myself, as I'm still 49, but in XP groups I haven't seen a 50 zerker yet who can tank as well as I can (ie, minimizing the amount of damage taken) The amount of extra damage you take is significant, in the same group makeup; I run a parser constantly. I suspect the reason for this is the extra ripostes you recieve from the haste you generate, and a brawlers ability to avoid the majority of riposte damage alltogether. I think if you are mindful of this, you could probably tank better than monks and more reliably.BTW, I love your class so don't hate <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> A lvl 50 Zerker and I run around duoing stuff we probably shouldn't be able to just by me MTing at first, then dropping aggro to him when I would need healing.<p>Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on <span class=date_text>03-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:23 PM</span>