To shield or not to shield, that be the question?

[JimboRour]

<DIV>If im tanking for a good dps group against a difficult mob, therefore i need not be outputing much dps, should i be using a shield? If so how much better does it make my tanking, what does it stop the mob doing to me. </DIV> <DIV>I understand the concept of mitigation, ac, stamina & hp, but im not sure about shield class, whats the benefit of having a higher shield class.</DIV>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>If you are the Main Tank, you should use a shield. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only it increases your AC, giving you better mitigation, it also permits you to block attacks and do some special shield moves (ie.  shield bash,  press)  that can for instance stun or decrease the offense of your enemy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My shield for instance, gives me   455+  AC.  That really helps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if youre soloing against multiple mobs, using a shield can also be useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding shield classes, the bigger your shield, the better AC it gives you.  Tower shields give the best protection, while Bucklers have the least.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:12 AM</span>

[Rentnil]

<DIV>No matter how much it may be the correct thing to do using a shield. Come on, you are a zerker. It flies in all that a berzerker stands for. I will not use a shield even if tanking end game mobs as that is not my character. But then, that is just me, give me a nice two hander or let me fight two-handed any day of the week.</DIV>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>I understand your point of view towards shields and Zerkers,  i always felt the same too.....  but the problem in EQ2  is that Zerkers are looked a bit differently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the majority of role-play games,  a Zerker was always the  DPS class,  able to wear  medium armor tops.  In EQ2 we do good DPS, but also are Tanks, able to wear the heaviest of armors and to sustain large amounts of damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont get me wrong,  i LOVE wielding a 2 handed sword (my favorite weapon in RL) and i do wield it whenever i can in game, but when im the Main Tank in a group,  you will see a considerable difference in your mitigation if youre using a shield  and your healers  will thank you for that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont forget our base class is a Warrior and in EQ a Warrior is a Tank.  The main goal of a Tank is to maintain aggro and be the best defensively,   dps  is secondary for the MT  (for that you have DPS classes in your group).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> It's our versatility that makes us shine.  We can both be a great Tank, or a good Damage Dealer as off-tank, specially in  AE fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If im the main tank,  i use 1h and shield,  if off-tank....  then its time to wield that  2hander out and deal great damage.  If im  soloing,  i use both.  If the mobs are single i dont bother much with shields,  but if they come in groups, my shield really makes the difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my Zerker, wouldnt change to another class even if i had to start from 0.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And remember....   i know that this isnt RL....   but Zerkers in RL  did wear shields too, in fact very often     <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:54 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Shield's do not mitigate anything, there just a chance to Block = Avoidance, the higher then number, tier type depend's on your chances to block.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Moorgard wrote :</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>To put it simply:</DIV> <DIV> <P>Item AC (excluding shields) = mitigation</P> <P>Skills and shields = avoidance</P> <P>While shields have an AC number, that number reflects the relative value of the avoidance they give. Shields don't mitigate anything; they give you an extra chance to avoid an attack.</P> <P>===========================<BR>Moorgard<BR>EverQuest II Community Guy</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=2835#M2835" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=2835#M2835</A></P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 41th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:09 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>This is how i work it, if the Mob's are Ornage or above, i use a One hander and shield, if there yellow and below i dual weild. If it is a Named Yellow, i use one hander and shield, it really depends on the group im with too, if im with a really strong DPS group, i will even dual weild on yellow name's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 41th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV>

[Chog]

<DIV>I am currently a level 44 Berserker and have not used a shield as the main tank since the attunment patch (when I was level 39).  Had a rubicite shield I was going to equip at 40; however, the level restriction was raised to 45 :smileymad:  And now I have a piece of Cedar, just need to find a Woodworker that can make me a pristine Cedar Tower Shield :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a main tank I have survived Orange and Red con Nightbloods from River Vale.  Orange and Yellow con Giants from Perma Frost.  Orange con lizzards from Cazic Thule.  All of these I was in a different group configuration with one or two healers, and at no time was I ever asked if I had a shield so I would take less damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With that said.  Once I get my Cedar Tower Shield crafted, I will use a shield when I am the main tank.</DIV>

[Scarax]

Ditto to what's been said here. If you're MT then you use a shield unless you're going up against trash. I will say though that if the mobs are no arrow mobs then even orange mobs I won't use a shield. Double arrow white or yellow is where I put the shield on for sure. And definitely anything that is triple arrow green or higher. Last piece of advice, don't ever ever let your shield con blue or lower to you. It's worthless at that point in my opinion. (Some people might say, "Duh!", but it's worse than most people think it is honestly. You can get away with a piece of blue armor here and there. Never use a blue or lower shield. Ever.)

[Hill]

<DIV>to reply chogar, my story is ima 34 berserker and i havent used a shield since i was level 19, and the only critiscism i have heard is i should use dual weild if im gonna go for dps, right now i use the SBH and have since level 28, im on the octagorgon part of PGT and once i get my hands on that i actually may change my weaponry for once in 14 levels, but for now 2h is my style and no one says anything nor cares, and im always the mt as i dont do xp groups, cept raids/heritages/writs lol.</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>JimboRourke wrote:<DIV>If im tanking for a good dps group against a difficult mob, therefore i need not be outputing much dps, should i be using a shield? If so how much better does it make my tanking, what does it stop the mob doing to me. </DIV><DIV>I understand the concept of mitigation, ac, stamina & hp, but im not sure about shield class, whats the benefit of having a higher shield class.</DIV><hr></blockquote>If I am tanking for a group I could care less if I do a single point of damage... as long as I can do my job of keeping control of the encounters and staying alive while doing so. To that end I use a tower shield..When off tanking I will either use a 2h weapon or shield/1h weapon depending on how likely it is that I will be directly tanking an add or the main...Look at it this way... add a shield and add avoidance of damage... avoiding damage makes your healers use less power. Using less power means less down time... less down time means you can pull faster..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />You just have to balance it all together.. and remember we are NOT here to focus on DPS when we are tanking.. thats the mages and scouts..

[Bayl]

<blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<blockquote><hr>JimboRourke wrote:<DIV>If im tanking for a good dps group against a difficult mob, therefore i need not be outputing much dps, should i be using a shield? If so how much better does it make my tanking, what does it stop the mob doing to me. </DIV><DIV>I understand the concept of mitigation, ac, stamina & hp, but im not sure about shield class, whats the benefit of having a higher shield class.</DIV><hr></blockquote>If I am tanking for a group I could care less if I do a single point of damage... as long as I can do my job of keeping control of the encounters and staying alive while doing so. To that end I use a tower shield..When off tanking I will either use a 2h weapon or shield/1h weapon depending on how likely it is that I will be directly tanking an add or the main...Look at it this way... add a shield and add avoidance of damage... avoiding damage makes your healers use less power. Using less power means less down time... less down time means you can pull faster..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />You just have to balance it all together.. and remember we are NOT here to focus on DPS when we are tanking.. thats the mages and scouts..<hr></blockquote>I follow the same guideline as Ariven. In a full group and I am the main tank, I let others focus on damage and I focus on agro control.I used to be all about DPS until I realized I have much more potential and a lot more responsibility to the group. During any encounter, I focus on the following tasks:1. Get agro of all engaged critters.2. Turn critters around so their backs are towards the group.Number 2 allows scouts to have access to backstabs and prevents the group from taking barage damage. It is also easier to spot if I lose agro.3. Watch for pops and adds. This is also easier with #2 in effect.

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Baylum wrote:<blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<blockquote><hr>JimboRourke wrote:<DIV>If im tanking for a good dps group against a difficult mob, therefore i need not be outputing much dps, should i be using a shield? If so how much better does it make my tanking, what does it stop the mob doing to me. </DIV><DIV>I understand the concept of mitigation, ac, stamina & hp, but im not sure about shield class, whats the benefit of having a higher shield class.</DIV><hr></blockquote>If I am tanking for a group I could care less if I do a single point of damage... as long as I can do my job of keeping control of the encounters and staying alive while doing so. To that end I use a tower shield..When off tanking I will either use a 2h weapon or shield/1h weapon depending on how likely it is that I will be directly tanking an add or the main...Look at it this way... add a shield and add avoidance of damage... avoiding damage makes your healers use less power. Using less power means less down time... less down time means you can pull faster..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />You just have to balance it all together.. and remember we are NOT here to focus on DPS when we are tanking.. thats the mages and scouts..<hr></blockquote>I follow the same guideline as Ariven. In a full group and I am the main tank, I let others focus on damage and I focus on agro control.I used to be all about DPS until I realized I have much more potential and a lot more responsibility to the group. During any encounter, I focus on the following tasks:1. Get agro of all engaged critters.2. Turn critters around so their backs are towards the group.Number 2 allows scouts to have access to backstabs and prevents the group from taking barage damage. It is also easier to spot if I lose agro.3. Watch for pops and adds. This is also easier with #2 in effect.<hr></blockquote>As an extra tactic... judicious use of a live time dps stat program (such as Combatstats) works wonders to get the mages and scouts working in full capacity... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Nothing makes that ranger or wizard or warlock work harder than finding out that the fighter and drood are out DPSing them (or getting close)... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />You just have to be careful that the MT (if you are not it while running this) and the healers dont get caught up in the "oh noes, I have crappy dps and must improve" mindset...But used right, I have seen 30 dps go to 90 dps on a warlock... and scouts go from 20dps to 40dps.. (only recently started using this)... and the faster kills again contribute to faster pulls due to less power used to keep everyone alive and remove the critter.You have to remember that not everyone will like this tactic so be sure to ask before you start it up.. but a friendly sense of competition does add some spice to the night...

[Bayl]

I play a berserker and an assassin and use CombatStats. Not everyone likes having the group stats posted after every fight because of various reasons, but you are right that it makes everyone pay attention a bit more. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I was playing as my 38 assassin along side a 38 berserker and we were pretty neck and neck the whole time. Occasionally one would out shine the other but we were averaging 80-110 dps all night in RunnyEye. He said he would have done better if he was dual weilding but when he did, he only got 80 dps. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />One thing I will do for the group (so stats are optional) is create a channel at the start of the group and let them join if they wish to see stats. Then I just type /1 (paste stats) and it shows up in its own channel freeing up group chat for those who don't want or care to see it.

[Mindtak]

Just my input, when I'm in a group of 3+ and am the MT I generally use a shield. However, I have found that I parry more than I block so sometimes if I feel like it use my greataxe.

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Baylum wrote:I play a berserker and an assassin and use CombatStats. Not everyone likes having the group stats posted after every fight because of various reasons, but you are right that it makes everyone pay attention a bit more. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I was playing as my 38 assassin along side a 38 berserker and we were pretty neck and neck the whole time. Occasionally one would out shine the other but we were averaging 80-110 dps all night in RunnyEye. He said he would have done better if he was dual weilding but when he did, he only got 80 dps. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />One thing I will do for the group (so stats are optional) is create a channel at the start of the group and let them join if they wish to see stats. Then I just type /1 (paste stats) and it shows up in its own channel freeing up group chat for those who don't want or care to see it.<hr></blockquote>Yeah, if I am in a pickup group I will ask before hand but my guildies have all expressed interest so I dont bother asking any more.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I use the private channel idea myself when soloing.. rather than tying up spatial <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As for specific dps.. I was running .4 - .7 last night <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but I was running my inquisitor and working as the main healer...I also dont usually post the stats after each fight, just every 3 or 4 unless specifically asked.. or on significant fights that look like they might be a good number..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Styk]

No offense but if you want to dps while being MT for your group , you should have went the brawler route.... we have the advantage of being able to equip the best shield type for tanks .... Tower Shields, no matter what SoE says about avoidance blah blah blah... ask any healer team you have if they want you tanking with a shield or not..... If you are MT in a group your job is NOT to dps but to tank = take dmg and hold agro so group can give dmg better and faster..... Also remember the Hold the Line Skill we got as warriors..... Adept 3 that quick.... i did for the hell of it and used it last night with various named mobs in Perma and EF.... even with 3 wizards who were 2-3 lvls higher then me going full dps i did not lose agro once..... I was amazed at how much HTL procced.... But yeah... for me at least when im MTing shield+1H ONLY for me till im 48+ and have the AC to where regular xp mobs dont me squat dmg wise.... Named IMO your always gonna need a shield+1H for them ( unless they are green con of course ) Strykr Destructicus45 Berserker

[Thinm]

<DIV>I gotta agree with Freakzilla on this one. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Styker wrote:</DIV> <DIV>----------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>If you are MT in a group your job is NOT to dps but to tank </DIV> <DIV>----------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wrong! A berserker's job is ALWAYS to dps! Just happens that sometimes theres other duties as well (such as MT, or add tank, split tank, etc). To [Removed for Content] your dps is to [Removed for Content] your group. High dps is a vital component to being a berserker. Sure we take more damage that way (albeit much less than you think), but so does the enemy. If you're talking 20dps over the course of a 5 minute fight, that is quite substantial.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Live on the edge! Wade into battle with no concern for your own safety!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In other words...be a freakin BERSERKER for god's sake!</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Thinman wrote:<DIV>I gotta agree with Freakzilla on this one. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Styker wrote:</DIV><DIV>----------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV>If you are MT in a group your job is NOT to dps but to tank </DIV><DIV>----------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Wrong! A berserker's job is ALWAYS to dps! Just happens that sometimes theres other duties as well (such as MT, or add tank, split tank, etc). To [Removed for Content] your dps is to [Removed for Content] your group. High dps is a vital component to being a berserker. Sure we take more damage that way (albeit much less than you think), but so does the enemy. If you're talking 20dps over the course of a 5 minute fight, that is quite substantial.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Live on the edge! Wade into battle with no concern for your own safety!</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>In other words...be a freakin BERSERKER for god's sake!</DIV><hr></blockquote>As part of the fighter class we are tanks... to me that means keeping the mobs attention and living.. DPS only comes into play as a tool to add to hate... and as a serk I sure dont need that... I like the extra DPS I get with my monk since there are fewer tools to keep hate up...but again... if you are MT your first concern should be keeping everything looking at you while staying alive while the DPS classes, i.e. mage and scout, kill the stuff off...And yes, added DPS does help kill stuff off, but not if you lose focus of what the tanks job is all about...

[WiseOne]

<DIV>Come on guys, to say you should use a shield as MT no matter what is NOT doing your group justice.  It is definitely situational.  You should realize that in certain encounters (as some have suggested already) your group makeup -vs- the encounter will actually dictate that you can improve the efficiency of the group (less downtime) by dropping the shield while fulfilling your primary MT duties as well quite nicely.  Just get familiar with your group and the types of encounters your facing before making the decision.  I try to be conservative on this decision but there are unquestionably times when using my shield is actually slowing the group down unnecessarily and I look for every opportunity to improve the group's success in whatever way I can.   Don't be narrow-minded in your decision, but don't be foolish either.  </DIV>

[fenixilius]

Well when I tank I usually stick with my duel-wielding, but I also usually have 2 healers in the group to compensate for no shield. Now when I think that my HP is dropping too fast for the healers to do their jobs efficiently, I equip my shield. I also equip my shield vs. hard armored mobs and bosses...as usually I can hardly hit them and when i do the damage is minimal.And the shield isnt the only way u can increase your def. When you only need a few critical points in defense turn to your def raising/atk lowering abilities. This way you still deal damage with both weapons and get stats from both (as duel wield stuff usually gives more important stats then shields). Sure this increase is only a few points, but it may be much more important then that 2-3 damage output.<p>Message Edited by fenixilius on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:42 PM</span>

[Sabin the Gre]

<DIV>While I enjoy a good dual wield or two hander any day of the week if you're maintanking you use rock a shield + 1 hander.  For those of you who don't think its possible to do good DPS with a shield you need to take a look in the mirror.  On multiple mob herioc encounters you can beat out most mages as well as all scouts (unless Assasin has his 1.5-2k attack up) if you play your skills right.  On single targets you should still beat everything this side of assasin or warlock/wiz.  This is all with a shield.  75-100 dps with a shield at level 40 is possible on single mob type heroics on a regular basis, and 100+ is cake if blood rage procs at all on multi-mob heroics.  So if you're MT'ing rock the shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[DarkRenown]

<DIV>Well, for me (only lvl 24 so no expert), I do the following</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I carry at all times a 2H Hammer, Dual Wield Blunts, and a Hammer and shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can switch as I want. But for solo'ing I use either the 2H or Dual Wield, because DPS is important, and it fits in with my character going beserk to kill things as quickly as possible. The reason I swithc is because I love my 2H Hammer I really do, it looks good, and has anice feel to it when it hits for lots of damage. The reason I dual wield is because I liek the look fo it, and think it fits in with the whole idea of going beserk and just lashing out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, when I am MT, I use the shield. It gives me avoidance, and lets me use skills liek Shield Bash. To roleplay it, I see myself as being the person who stands in the front egging everyone else on, and shrugging off the hits when they come. I am not bothered by DPS when MT'ing. I just taunt, taunt, and do a bit more taunting. I like to add a lot of laughs and general insults in /say whilst i am doing this. Yes it can be annoying, so I don;t do it often, but it is funny on the odd occasion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for DPS, well my 2H and Dual Wield both do similar DPS. I have tried and tested them. The main difference is the 2H will do divine against undead very occasionally. So no real benefit either way, but it does look better when you do a Mangle or Area attack with a 2H I think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically I try to reol-play my zerker (as I am sure, many do) so when I am alone I have no control over my rage and just hit things, a lot, and very hard. But when I am with friends (i.e. a group) I try to control my rage by taunting the enemy and encouraging them to hit me! I liek to have Fury on, just so on occasion you do a very nice response and throw in a quick /say one liner for effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, I do spend far too much time playing this very silly game! Thankyou SOE for making another horribly addictive product!:smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Wiou]

You can find a nice 1h and make up for using the shield. you wont take as much dps hit as you would think

[Pnaxx]

<DIV>Just look at oyur AC with and without the Shield. If you die as the MT, your party dies. So while you may go down in a blaze of zerker fury usind dual weild, and look cool doing it...bottom line is...you did the ONE thing your must not do...died on your party for a dumb reason.  Use the shield, hold aggro...and dont be a cowboy. A MT lives for the health of the group and a shield MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD! nuff said.</DIV>

[Tasi3989]

<DIV>I read most of the above posts, my opinion is that I seem to tank just as good with 2 wpns as I do with my shield, because I seem to parry very well.  That being said, it is a bit different when 8 mobs are scramling my brains.  </DIV> <DIV>I do not think it matters a whole lot but for this:  When I have a shield on, I am mentally in a MT role and seem to concentrate on aggro more:  When I am in dual wield, I tend to forget myself and start AOE and DPS like a mofo, and forget my roll at MT.  Perhaps I am just not mentally disciplined enough, but the comment above about doing your job and not being a cowboy, I know what he is talking about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, one more thing.  I am not sure why so many peeps love 2HD, but I am a dual wield only.  I battle tested this, and this is what I found.  I fought grey mobs many times that were same lvl, with no buffs or chance to go berzerk.  I switched wpns and auto-attacked and timed the encounters.  With 2 dual wield that did 10-30ish damage, I killed mobs exactly the same ammount of time as a 2hnd that did 26-100 something.  Lately, my dual wield killed 20% faster than my 2 hnd wpn, and this one capped at about 179 damage (must be the speed of the wpn here).  The reason I dual more is three-fold - </DIV> <DIV>1 -  more hits means more chances to go berserk.  </DIV> <DIV>2 - I seem to parry better but that might be a misconception.  </DIV> <DIV>3 - I like having a variety of wpns, when doind skeletons I switched from axe to mace and it was a big difference.  </DIV> <DIV>Now, you can carry 3 types of 2 hnd, I now, but also, I seem to keep my slashing, crushing, and piercing leveling up faster with dual also.  </DIV>

[Mie]

<DIV>Very simple question. Sheild or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at your healer's mana and decide shield or not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tasi3989 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I read most of the above posts, my opinion is that I seem to tank just as good with 2 wpns as I do with my shield, because I seem to parry very well.  That being said, it is a bit different when 8 mobs are scramling my brains.  </DIV> <DIV>I do not think it matters a whole lot but for this:  When I have a shield on, I am mentally in a MT role and seem to concentrate on aggro more:  When I am in dual wield, I tend to forget myself and start AOE and DPS like a mofo, and forget my roll at MT.  Perhaps I am just not mentally disciplined enough, but the comment above about doing your job and not being a cowboy, I know what he is talking about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, one more thing.  I am not sure why so many peeps love 2HD, but I am a dual wield only.  I battle tested this, and this is what I found.  I fought grey mobs many times that were same lvl, with no buffs or chance to go berzerk.  I switched wpns and auto-attacked and timed the encounters.  With 2 dual wield that did 10-30ish damage, I killed mobs exactly the same ammount of time as a 2hnd that did 26-100 something.  Lately, my dual wield killed 20% faster than my 2 hnd wpn, and this one capped at about 179 damage (must be the speed of the wpn here).  The reason I dual more is three-fold - </DIV> <DIV>1 -  more hits means more chances to go berserk.  </DIV> <DIV>2 - I seem to parry better but that might be a misconception.  </DIV> <DIV>3 - I like having a variety of wpns, when doind skeletons I switched from axe to mace and it was a big difference.  </DIV> <DIV>Now, you can carry 3 types of 2 hnd, I now, but also, I seem to keep my slashing, crushing, and piercing leveling up faster with dual also.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well , if you high level enough and tanking groupx2 mob . Without a shield you will die in very fast.<BR> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tasi3989]

<DIV>Hmmmm, very true, but if I am doing a group X2 mob and I am the lifeline of the party as a MT zerker, then I guess we have it coming.  I do not question using the shield when MT uber stuff, that is a no brainer, most of my stuff was directed to dungeon roaming, xping, dueling, or soloing.  </DIV> <DIV>Most importantly:  I have played enough of these games to realize this one simple fact:  I would take someone that knows how to play their character over a toon's lvl any day.  I have been with 28 zerkers that MT better than 32 guardians, and we have all experienced different abilites of healers.  A 35 guardian got me and my defiler bud whiped do to his stupid tanking abilities, to a blue ^^ mob with adds.  </DIV>

[Mie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tasi3989 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hmmmm, very true, but if I am doing a group X2 mob and I am the lifeline of the party as a MT zerker, then I guess we have it coming.  I do not question using the shield when MT uber stuff, that is a no brainer, most of my stuff was directed to dungeon roaming, xping, dueling, or soloing.  </DIV> <DIV>Most importantly:  I have played enough of these games to realize this one simple fact:  I would take someone that knows how to play their character over a toon's lvl any day.  I have been with 28 zerkers that MT better than 32 guardians, and we have all experienced different abilites of healers.  A 35 guardian got me and my defiler bud whiped do to his stupid tanking abilities, to a blue ^^ mob with adds.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>So, never encourage anyone use shield or not. Just look at your healer.  Their mana tell the truth. </P>

[Kaberu]

<DIV>The basic principle is if you do not use a shield, you should compensate avoidance by other means. I have a higher than normal agility that helps dodging melee attacks and I am steadily increasing my wisdom to help dodge spells (although I don't think shields help against spells anyway). I rely on parrying with weapon shield always up and dual wielding (which seems to parry more often than a single weapon). You can also find weapons and items that aid in tanking. For instance, the PGT can proc a ward thus blocking some melee damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A shield is not necessary in my opinion because as Berserkers, we have more than enough skills and options to support not using one. In the earlier levels I sometimes considered using them and did a few times but when I developed my berserker skills, I stayed with a dual weapon set. I even have a replacement for the shield bash/Press line called Raging blows... its a stun/attack that I can use without a shield :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Kaberu wrote:<DIV>The basic principle is if you do not use a shield, you should compensate avoidance by other means. I have a higher than normal agility that helps dodging melee attacks and I am steadily increasing my wisdom to help dodge spells (although I don't think shields help against spells anyway). I rely on parrying with weapon shield always up and dual wielding (which seems to parry more often than a single weapon). You can also find weapons and items that aid in tanking. For instance, the PGT can proc a ward thus blocking some melee damage. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>A shield is not necessary in my opinion because as Berserkers, we have more than enough skills and options to support not using one. In the earlier levels I sometimes considered using them and did a few times but when I developed my berserker skills, I stayed with a dual weapon set. I even have a replacement for the shield bash/Press line called Raging blows... its a stun/attack that I can use without a shield :smileywink:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>except that putting your defensive buffs that you describe together with a shield your healers will have less mana burn, allowing you to either a) pull mobs faster giving better xp, or b) tank tougher mobs giving better xp...Deliberately reducing your defense without testing the alternatives means you may be reducing your options without realizing the benifits..I used to use DW, and now will only DW when tanking with my monk (who cant use a shield) and then they are slow DW weapons to fit better with the timing of my combat arts... with my berserker when I tank, I am going to use the best shield i can buy... because I have tested it... and I can see a noticible difference between even 2h as well as DW vs a 1h and a shield. And more importantly my healer can tell the difference (and has made sure to tell me so)...So yes, I have wonderful defensive buffs.. I have fairly decent agility, but I am going to do my best to hold up my end of the group experience and get the highest AC and best defenses I can.. simply because it isn't fair to the rest of the group if I am not pulling my own and not working to the best of my ability towards my job.. that of holding agro and not stressing the healer..

[Kaberu]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>except that putting your defensive buffs that you describe together with a shield your healers will have less mana burn, allowing you to either a) pull mobs faster giving better xp, or b) tank tougher mobs giving better xp...<BR><BR>Deliberately reducing your defense without testing the alternatives means you may be reducing your options without realizing the benifits..<BR><BR>I used to use DW, and now will only DW when tanking with my monk (who cant use a shield) and then they are slow DW weapons to fit better with the timing of my combat arts... with my berserker when I tank, I am going to use the best shield i can buy... because I have tested it... and I can see a noticible difference between even 2h as well as DW vs a 1h and a shield. And more importantly my healer can tell the difference (and has made sure to tell me so)...<BR><BR>So yes, I have wonderful defensive buffs.. I have fairly decent agility, but I am going to do my best to hold up my end of the group experience and get the highest AC and best defenses I can.. simply because it isn't fair to the rest of the group if I am not pulling my own and not working to the best of my ability towards my job.. that of holding agro and not stressing the healer..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Erm, right... I think you misunderstand what I'm saying:</P> <P>If you build your character and tactics around the use of a shield, then you need a shield to tank effectively.</P> <P>If you build you character and tactics around the use of dual wielding, then you do not need a shield to function effectively and may in fact reduce your effectiveness if you try to use one on rare occasions.</P> <P>You say you have decent Agility. Well I'm a dual wielding berserker that doesn't even own a shield and agility is my highest stat. Is agility your highest stat? I'm guessing not. I have a higher agility because I built myself to compensate for a lack of shield. How many shields do you know of that increase agility? Dual wield weapons grant me the extra bonuses I need to compensate for not using a shield. Furthermore I can output more damage which decreases the length of time I am taking damage. The higher attack rating lets me hit more often than I miss which goes a long way to maintaining aggro. </P> <P>Is it better than using a shield? No, it's just a different means to the same end.</P> <P>What about those mobs that always seem to hit, like epic mobs? Well in that case I would indeed be better off building myself with a shield in mind. But then again, I'd also be better off building myself around the idea of a Guardian. </P> <P>Tanking Lady Vox? Maybe not my thing.</P> <P>Tanking the armies of giants and goblins that stand in the way? Definately my thing :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Kaberu wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Ariven wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>except that putting your defensive buffs that you describe together with a shield your healers will have less mana burn, allowing you to either a) pull mobs faster giving better xp, or b) tank tougher mobs giving better xp...<BR><BR>Deliberately reducing your defense without testing the alternatives means you may be reducing your options without realizing the benifits..<BR><BR>I used to use DW, and now will only DW when tanking with my monk (who cant use a shield) and then they are slow DW weapons to fit better with the timing of my combat arts... with my berserker when I tank, I am going to use the best shield i can buy... because I have tested it... and I can see a noticible difference between even 2h as well as DW vs a 1h and a shield. And more importantly my healer can tell the difference (and has made sure to tell me so)...<BR><BR>So yes, I have wonderful defensive buffs.. I have fairly decent agility, but I am going to do my best to hold up my end of the group experience and get the highest AC and best defenses I can.. simply because it isn't fair to the rest of the group if I am not pulling my own and not working to the best of my ability towards my job.. that of holding agro and not stressing the healer..<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Erm, right... I think you misunderstand what I'm saying:</P><P>If you build your character and tactics around the use of a shield, then you need a shield to tank effectively.</P><P>If you build you character and tactics around the use of dual wielding, then you do not need a shield to function effectively and may in fact reduce your effectiveness if you try to use one on rare occasions.</P><P>You say you have decent Agility. Well I'm a dual wielding berserker that doesn't even own a shield and agility is my highest stat. Is agility your highest stat? I'm guessing not. I have a higher agility because I built myself to compensate for a lack of shield. How many shields do you know of that increase agility? Dual wield weapons grant me the extra bonuses I need to compensate for not using a shield. Furthermore I can output more damage which decreases the length of time I am taking damage. The higher attack rating lets me hit more often than I miss which goes a long way to maintaining aggro. </P><P>Is it better than using a shield? No, it's just a different means to the same end.</P><P>What about those mobs that always seem to hit, like epic mobs? Well in that case I would indeed be better off building myself with a shield in mind. But then again, I'd also be better off building myself around the idea of a Guardian. </P><P>Tanking Lady Vox? Maybe not my thing.</P><P>Tanking the armies of giants and goblins that stand in the way? Definately my thing :smileyhappy:</P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>I am more than familiar with what you can do with dual wield weapons for stats.. no, my berserker doesn't have agility as his highest stat, but my monk does so I am familiar with high agility.. but that doesn't negate my point... High agility with no shield doesn't stop as much inbound damage as high agility WITH a shield.. the question then becomes how good is that second weapons agility boost? is it enough to counter losing that while placing a shield in its spot? But since you have not tested that factor you dont know. What I am suggesting is that you should consider your options before you dismiss things out of hand.. especially with the agility nerf they put in the game... and it doesn't hurt to try equipping a shield instead of your secondary DW weapon and testing it out...

[Styk]

What i dont understand is why are people asking this question? If you DONT use a shield then you lose the ability to BLOCK.. Why are berserker's who are MTing concerned about dps? The "agro" from dps wont mean squat when you have a wizzie cast ice comet and steal it right from you .... If you are designated MT of the group pls remember ultimately that we are a warrior type... we get to use the best shield type in the game. Yes berserkers have great dps but if the group wants you to tank for them, do exactly what is asked, Tank and gain and maintain agro... With Raging Strike, Promise of Violence, Bully etc etc tanking shouldnt be hard since that is alot of agro tools... ( post 45 thou of course) If im tanking all i care about is agro not DPS... Shield is your friend... the raw AC and the ABILITY to block is all the reason why you SHOULD use a shield when tanking.Strykr Destructicus47 Berserker AB

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Styker wrote:What i dont understand is why are people asking this question? If you DONT use a shield then you lose the ability to BLOCK.. Why are berserker's who are MTing concerned about dps? The "agro" from dps wont mean squat when you have a wizzie cast ice comet and steal it right from you .... If you are designated MT of the group pls remember ultimately that we are a warrior type... we get to use the best shield type in the game. Yes berserkers have great dps but if the group wants you to tank for them, do exactly what is asked, Tank and gain and maintain agro... With Raging Strike, Promise of Violence, Bully etc etc tanking shouldnt be hard since that is alot of agro tools... ( post 45 thou of course) If im tanking all i care about is agro not DPS... Shield is your friend... the raw AC and the ABILITY to block is all the reason why you SHOULD use a shield when tanking.Strykr Destructicus47 Berserker AB<hr></blockquote>I look at being tank as a amalgam of responsibilities.... I have to hold the attention of the creatures in the encounter, I have to survive long enough for the group to take it down. I have to be efficient at both to enable the best working environment to meet the groups goals (be it xp, quests, etc). If I can't keep agro, someones going to likely die.. and chances are its the guy with the dps to kill stuff fast or the guy keeping me alive. If I cant take a hit, the healer has to work harder and burn more power to keep me alive and it pulls down our operating spped. If I cant be efficient at this then I am not an ideal tank and am not as likely to keep my job... very few of us want a really slow tank, or one that causes party wipes or lets the wizard die...I am NOT there for dps... I am NOT there to kill the mobs, I am there just to hold it's attention and stay alive while everyone else gets to the business of killing it. And thats where I come from when it comes to whether or not I use a shield as main tank...

[Tagright]

Aren't you missing the obvious: it depends on the mobsMTing in a crawl through a dungeon where your fighting level appropriate mobs to get to a named, dps is essential so that you can keep moving and avoid backspawn. When my group does that I two-hand and there is no downtime for mana breaks and no wipes -- I never lose agro either. When we parse, my dps is right up there with the wizards and the two scouts I normally group with (sometimes better if there are multiple mobs, usually just beneath them). When we get to a named, I usually strap on a shield, my dps drops considerably and I can stand in there for the longer fight. This really seems obvious to me. Why would you tank normal mobs with a shield, if your 2 hander does much more damage and your group is equipped to handle the encounters? If you use a shield the ENTIRE time you crawl though Runnyeye in your mid to high 30s, for example, you are not getting the most out of your class.

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Tagright wrote:Aren't you missing the obvious: it depends on the mobsMTing in a crawl through a dungeon where your fighting level appropriate mobs to get to a named, dps is essential so that you can keep moving and avoid backspawn. When my group does that I two-hand and there is no downtime for mana breaks and no wipes -- I never lose agro either. When we parse, my dps is right up there with the wizards and the two scouts I normally group with (sometimes better if there are multiple mobs, usually just beneath them). When we get to a named, I usually strap on a shield, my dps drops considerably and I can stand in there for the longer fight. This really seems obvious to me. Why would you tank normal mobs with a shield, if your 2 hander does much more damage and your group is equipped to handle the encounters? If you use a shield the ENTIRE time you crawl though Runnyeye in your mid to high 30s, for example, you are not getting the most out of your class.<hr></blockquote>Except for the fact that fighters are there to tank, not to DPS.. and you being able to DPS on par with the wizards is indicative of one of two things.. first the wizard is doing a really bad job, or second you are out of scale with the archetype for damage dealt.. as fighters we should be second lowest on the totem pole for dps, not fighting for first spot.. yes the dps is nice, yes it helps control agro a bit more but the devs have made it clear that we are NOT going to hold our dps position forever.. its going to get changed.. for good or bad, dont expect that dps to stay where its at....With the stated intent of the tank to tank.. I prefer to do the job to the best of my ability.. and doing dps instead of managing agro and managing inbound damage is doing a disservice to my groupmates.. the moreso in that if I did get in groups due to DPS, I would lose that spot when they finally "balance" our dps out of the high spot...

[Tagright]

So, by your logic, inquisitors shouldn't cast offensive spells because they are there to heal. Nor, for that matter should defilers, wardens, etc. Everyone should do nothing more than play their most basic and central role to utter perfection and boredom. That's pretty silly.The tone of your posts contrasted with the color-by numbers logic you espouse is almost comical. It strikes me as the way I would instruct my younger, slightly dim-witted brother to play the class.Give me the guy who can think for himself anyday.

[Kaberu]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR><BR><BR>I am more than familiar with what you can do with dual wield weapons for stats.. no, my berserker doesn't have agility as his highest stat, but my monk does so I am familiar with high agility.. but that doesn't negate my point... High agility with no shield doesn't stop as much inbound damage as high agility WITH a shield.. the question then becomes how good is that second weapons agility boost? is it enough to counter losing that while placing a shield in its spot? But since you have not tested that factor you dont know. What I am suggesting is that you should consider your options before you dismiss things out of hand.. especially with the agility nerf they put in the game... and it doesn't hurt to try equipping a shield instead of your secondary DW weapon and testing it out...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If I have weapon shield up and I dual wield, I parry FAR more often than I would with a shield equipped. If I have a shield I do add a chance to block but I seem to halve the amount I parry. I do get hit harder but there are also longer gaps in between hits because I dodge and parry more often. Lemme put it this way.. you're what? A level 31 Berserker? Right now my agility is 117 unbuffed at 42. I dual wield and rely on parry and dodge as my primary avoidance. And I'm not dismissing anything. I already stated that I cannot tank epic mobs as well as a berserker who focuses on mitigation as opposed to avoidance. I am a superb grinding tank however. My DPS is much higher than mitigation based tanks and the mobs die much faster than if a full on mitigating tank were in charge, not only that but the higher DPS gives me far greater aggro generation than I could if I ignored my DPS potential. In Epic Raids I function as DPS and add control. My optimal role is a leader of a DPS group. Put me in a group with scouts and my buffs greatly increase the output of damage. I haste the group, increase strength, my Anarchy in particular gives everyone a proc that hits for a couple hundred points and when you have a bunch of dual wielding scouts and a dual wielding berserker that are all hasted... well lets just say it procs alot :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't tested it? You are familiar with CombatStats and Statalyzer right? :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Shield based</STRONG>: </DIV> <DIV>grinding fights last longer, higher survivability against epic mobs, lower aggro generation, fights rely more on mana consumption rate</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Dual Based</STRONG>: </DIV> <DIV>grinding fights go quicker, lower survivability against epic mobs, higher aggro generation, fights rely more on damage output</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm going for the Dual based... if we have to take on a dragon, I'll need you to tank it. If you need to tackle deathfist citadel, it might help if you have one of me around :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Tagright wrote:So, by your logic, inquisitors shouldn't cast offensive spells because they are there to heal. Nor, for that matter should defilers, wardens, etc. Everyone should do nothing more than play their most basic and central role to utter perfection and boredom. That's pretty silly.The tone of your posts contrasted with the color-by numbers logic you espouse is almost comical. It strikes me as the way I would instruct my younger, slightly dim-witted brother to play the class.Give me the guy who can think for himself anyday.<hr></blockquote>Using the tools at hand to accomplish a task isn't silly. And the debuffs that an inquisitor has are tools that they can use. With my inquisitor if I have enough power to spare from healing I will indeed debuff, because it DOES help take down the mob faster and make it easier in that I do not have to heal as much. Flavor and tools for the job are not the same as deliberately going out of your way to do things less efficiently... to do THAT as an inquisitor I would have to spam direct heals only instead of using reactive heals on a tank... in most cases spamming heals is very power consuming over a reactive heal... and will cause me to go out of power a lot faster.. there are cases where it is required yes, but that means you have to know how to play the class effectively and have tested the various conditions in order to know WHEN you should change tactics..And that is what you have not done if you refuse to even try a good solid session with 1h and a shield.. you are not testing what you can and can not do...Put that together with the representative of the developers directly stating that a tank not using a shield while main tanking wasn't doing the job to the best of their ability and I strongly urge, better yet challenge you, to test all the variations that you can before developing mindlock on your "magic solution" simply -because- you are close minded about it if you dont..I have tried it both ways (I have even tried 2h weapons).. I have tried fast weapons and slow weapons.. I have tried berserker, monk and crusader.. I have tried them with the three basic flavors of healers... I work to check things out because I am always looking to improve what I am doing.. and not living with a preconceived (and untested) notion that what I am doing is right... and thats where I am coming from... a desire to help you and others become a better player by letting you know that you can learn more by trying more things...in other words.. thinking for yourself and trying things out instead of ignoring what others say...

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Kaberu wrote:<DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Ariven wrote:<BR><BR><BR>I am more than familiar with what you can do with dual wield weapons for stats.. no, my berserker doesn't have agility as his highest stat, but my monk does so I am familiar with high agility.. but that doesn't negate my point... High agility with no shield doesn't stop as much inbound damage as high agility WITH a shield.. the question then becomes how good is that second weapons agility boost? is it enough to counter losing that while placing a shield in its spot? But since you have not tested that factor you dont know. What I am suggesting is that you should consider your options before you dismiss things out of hand.. especially with the agility nerf they put in the game... and it doesn't hurt to try equipping a shield instead of your secondary DW weapon and testing it out...<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>If I have weapon shield up and I dual wield, I parry FAR more often than I would with a shield equipped. If I have a shield I do add a chance to block but I seem to halve the amount I parry. I do get hit harder but there are also longer gaps in between hits because I dodge and parry more often. Lemme put it this way.. you're what? A level 31 Berserker? Right now my agility is 117 unbuffed at 42. I dual wield and rely on parry and dodge as my primary avoidance. And I'm not dismissing anything. I already stated that I cannot tank epic mobs as well as a berserker who focuses on mitigation as opposed to avoidance. I am a superb grinding tank however. My DPS is much higher than mitigation based tanks and the mobs die much faster than if a full on mitigating tank were in charge, not only that but the higher DPS gives me far greater aggro generation than I could if I ignored my DPS potential. In Epic Raids I function as DPS and add control. My optimal role is a leader of a DPS group. Put me in a group with scouts and my buffs greatly increase the output of damage. I haste the group, increase strength, my Anarchy in particular gives everyone a proc that hits for a couple hundred points and when you have a bunch of dual wielding scouts and a dual wielding berserker that are all hasted... well lets just say it procs alot :smileywink:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I haven't tested it? You are familiar with CombatStats and Statalyzer right? :smileytongue:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><STRONG>Shield based</STRONG>: </DIV><DIV>grinding fights last longer, higher survivability against epic mobs, lower aggro generation, fights rely more on mana consumption rate</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><STRONG>Dual Based</STRONG>: </DIV><DIV>grinding fights go quicker, lower survivability against epic mobs, higher aggro generation, fights rely more on damage output</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'm going for the Dual based... if we have to take on a dragon, I'll need you to tank it. If you need to tackle deathfist citadel, it might help if you have one of me around :smileyhappy:</DIV><DIV> </DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>Yes I am familiar with statalyzer and combatstats.. in fact I run with combatstats up 90% of the time just to keep an idea of whats going in... I hope I can get my monk up to that 117 before 42.. I have her fairly close (I believe 98 right now, at level 26)... and on her i am relying on avoidance.. its part of the flavor and theme I am going ... so I am familiar with it.. but yes I am going mitigation with my berserker... with a decent (for fighter) dps goal.. in fact as a result of this thread I went out and bought a set of DW maces and a new axe (and need to get a new 2h weapon) to do some more testing.. the last time I worked with dw was about level 23-24, so with a few more levels in me I figure that this is a good time to retest how things are working out for me with the healers and such in tow.. So far though with sword and board (actually dagger at the moment) we are not really having a problem with mana consumption and can work at the speeds we are comfortable with, and have plenty of power left over for adds and other "issues". But we dont rest on that, we are always trying new combos of stuff to see new tactics.If you dont mind, what equipment are you using to get to that agility, and what is your strength now? Cause now you have my curiosity piqued and I want to try new things again.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Styk]

I serously beg to differ on duel wield generating more agro the a 2.0 - 2.5 dly ratio 2H ( well at least in the mid 40's and up.. using Tides of War and Screaming Fury/Destructive rage ) To this day i get way better proc rate from BloodRage etc with a 2H vs duel wield.. Also ive tried using duel wield when soloing vs a 2H , ( using two Pristine Forged Fulginate Leaf Blades vs Magma Forged Greatsword [ i dont care how much better the stats are on a EBBC or Hiero crook, they look freaking ugly ] i was getting better proc rates and dmg without specials using a 2H vs DW.... also next time you are in a group and not using a shield when tanking , ask your healer ( 1 healer not two since with two you can use any weapon setup you want ) how their power is after each fight... The difference is obvious ( i say one healer because in most groups im in now we go one healer and load up on dps ) Strykr Destructicus47 Berserker AB server

[Sabin the Gre]

<DIV>It was my understanding that now AC is comprised of block rate + parry + dodge etc. etc.  So the added benefit of AGI (which is nearly my highest stat and I use a shield) accounts for about 4 ac per point (or something close to this).  A good shield on the other hand (at level 41 using a Shaped Cedar) has something around 600-700 ac.  So while shields don't add mitigation they add an equivalent of 600-700 ac worth of blocking etc.  So no matter how much better you parry etc (if in fact you do) with dual wield or 2h its not even close to a good Shield + 1 Hander (assuming AC calculations are working accurately) and your dps should only suffer slightly.  Soloing Green ^^ darkflight's (btwn 2x ^'s and 4x no ^'s) in EL I was constantly doing 120-140 dps with a 1 hander and shield (at level 41).  </DIV> <DIV>Food for thought.</DIV>

[Adewale]

"assuming AC calculations are working accurately"A big assumption. Raising defense skill only minorly raises AC, but it's a huge advantage.

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Styker wrote:I serously beg to differ on duel wield generating more agro the a 2.0 - 2.5 dly ratio 2H ( well at least in the mid 40's and up.. using Tides of War and Screaming Fury/Destructive rage ) To this day i get way better proc rate from BloodRage etc with a 2H vs duel wield.. Also ive tried using duel wield when soloing vs a 2H , ( using two Pristine Forged Fulginate Leaf Blades vs Magma Forged Greatsword [ i dont care how much better the stats are on a EBBC or Hiero crook, they look freaking ugly ] i was getting better proc rates and dmg without specials using a 2H vs DW.... also next time you are in a group and not using a shield when tanking , ask your healer ( 1 healer not two since with two you can use any weapon setup you want ) how their power is after each fight... The difference is obvious ( i say one healer because in most groups im in now we go one healer and load up on dps ) Strykr Destructicus47 Berserker AB server<hr></blockquote>I ended up buying a set of DW maces (1.9s) and tested vs comparitive damage 1h axe (2.0s) with shield last night in EL... I had 4 more agi with the dw setup, and 5 more str)I worked the shrillers and a couple different types of goblins... consistantly I would go about 20-30% more damage done to me without shield... with DPS going from 30-45ish... averaging about 30-35 (with one spike to 40) with the 1h setup and averaging 30-40 (with one spike to 45) with the DW setup. At one poing I was down to 20% health on the 1h setup but only got down to 30% health with dw..It's hard to tell without killing hundreds of mobs to get consistant results to see which setup works better.. but with averageing more damage (discounting heavy spikes) with the dw again shows to me I am not going to DW when maintanking since I can come close to the same dps with 1h.. I expect my DPS while tanking to be lower (I was solo) simply due to using more taunts than I did last night (I only used them occaisionally for haste generation and HOs). All in all though it wasn't a scientific test, it showed to me that my original testing seemed to be right... and while I am going to test more I will stick to dw on offtank/dps and 1h/shield when MT..I encourage those of you who insist that you are fine with dw only who havent really tried 1h/shield to give it a whirl for an evening and see what it turns out (and what your healer says).I didnt test with healer last night simply because I -know- what they are gonna say as they have already made clear they prefer me 1h/shield...

[Tagright]

<blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<blockquote><hr>Tagright wrote:So, by your logic, inquisitors shouldn't cast offensive spells because they are there to heal. Nor, for that matter should defilers, wardens, etc. Everyone should do nothing more than play their most basic and central role to utter perfection and boredom. That's pretty silly.The tone of your posts contrasted with the color-by numbers logic you espouse is almost comical. It strikes me as the way I would instruct my younger, slightly dim-witted brother to play the class.Give me the guy who can think for himself anyday.<hr></blockquote>Using the tools at hand to accomplish a task isn't silly. And the debuffs that an inquisitor has are tools that they can use. With my inquisitor if I have enough power to spare from healing I will indeed debuff, because it DOES help take down the mob faster and make it easier in that I do not have to heal as much. Flavor and tools for the job are not the same as deliberately going out of your way to do things less efficiently... to do THAT as an inquisitor I would have to spam direct heals only instead of using reactive heals on a tank... in most cases spamming heals is very power consuming over a reactive heal... and will cause me to go out of power a lot faster.. there are cases where it is required yes, but that means you have to know how to play the class effectively and have tested the various conditions in order to know WHEN you should change tactics..And that is what you have not done if you refuse to even try a good solid session with 1h and a shield.. you are not testing what you can and can not do...Put that together with the representative of the developers directly stating that a tank not using a shield while main tanking wasn't doing the job to the best of their ability and I strongly urge, better yet challenge you, to test all the variations that you can before developing mindlock on your "magic solution" simply -because- you are close minded about it if you dont..I have tried it both ways (I have even tried 2h weapons).. I have tried fast weapons and slow weapons.. I have tried berserker, monk and crusader.. I have tried them with the three basic flavors of healers... I work to check things out because I am always looking to improve what I am doing.. and not living with a preconceived (and untested) notion that what I am doing is right... and thats where I am coming from... a desire to help you and others become a better player by letting you know that you can learn more by trying more things...in other words.. thinking for yourself and trying things out instead of ignoring what others say...<hr></blockquote>Thanks, Ariven. You have made my point. You acknowledge that it is advisable to change your tactics, gear and play style to fit the encounter. That was what most of us have been saying all along. You do realize that your insistence that a responsible "tank" must fight with a shield and sword all of the time is inconsitent with that, right?Boy, I just reread the last part of your post. Are you that much of a pompous jerk in real life, or is it just a persona you adopt online?

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Tagright wrote:<blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<blockquote><hr>Tagright wrote:So, by your logic, inquisitors shouldn't cast offensive spells because they are there to heal. Nor, for that matter should defilers, wardens, etc. Everyone should do nothing more than play their most basic and central role to utter perfection and boredom. That's pretty silly.The tone of your posts contrasted with the color-by numbers logic you espouse is almost comical. It strikes me as the way I would instruct my younger, slightly dim-witted brother to play the class.Give me the guy who can think for himself anyday.<hr></blockquote>Using the tools at hand to accomplish a task isn't silly. And the debuffs that an inquisitor has are tools that they can use. With my inquisitor if I have enough power to spare from healing I will indeed debuff, because it DOES help take down the mob faster and make it easier in that I do not have to heal as much. Flavor and tools for the job are not the same as deliberately going out of your way to do things less efficiently... to do THAT as an inquisitor I would have to spam direct heals only instead of using reactive heals on a tank... in most cases spamming heals is very power consuming over a reactive heal... and will cause me to go out of power a lot faster.. there are cases where it is required yes, but that means you have to know how to play the class effectively and have tested the various conditions in order to know WHEN you should change tactics..And that is what you have not done if you refuse to even try a good solid session with 1h and a shield.. you are not testing what you can and can not do...Put that together with the representative of the developers directly stating that a tank not using a shield while main tanking wasn't doing the job to the best of their ability and I strongly urge, better yet challenge you, to test all the variations that you can before developing mindlock on your "magic solution" simply -because- you are close minded about it if you dont..I have tried it both ways (I have even tried 2h weapons).. I have tried fast weapons and slow weapons.. I have tried berserker, monk and crusader.. I have tried them with the three basic flavors of healers... I work to check things out because I am always looking to improve what I am doing.. and not living with a preconceived (and untested) notion that what I am doing is right... and thats where I am coming from... a desire to help you and others become a better player by letting you know that you can learn more by trying more things...in other words.. thinking for yourself and trying things out instead of ignoring what others say...<hr></blockquote>Thanks, Ariven. You have made my point. You acknowledge that it is advisable to change your tactics, gear and play style to fit the encounter. That was what most of us have been saying all along. You do realize that your insistence that a responsible "tank" must fight with a shield and sword all of the time is inconsitent with that, right?Boy, I just reread the last part of your post. Are you that much of a pompous jerk in real life, or is it just a persona you adopt online?<hr></blockquote>1) My position is and has been concerning main tanking, not offtanking or dps (though I wouldn't count on dps being a role we can fill forever)... 2) I am always willing to try new things and double check my conclusions3) <a href="http://www2.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/adhom.html" target=_blank>On being a pompus jerk</a><p>Message Edited by Ariven on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 AM</span>

[Styk]

Tagright you must be use to a 2 healer group then ? Try DW or a 2H when tanking with a 1 healer group and lets see if the healer doesnt complain then... at this point in the game a lvl 50 can afford to tank witout a shield simply for more then half his grouping because 85-90% of the mobs in the game by that time are blue con or lower.... ( only time you would need to use a shield then is for named and or raid mobs ) At least in my guild , we operate our groups alot with one healer ( various teams within guild ) ... why would i put my group thru the downtime the Healer is going to have when i can be using a shield+1H? the 700+ ac + Block matters ALOT when tanking

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Styker wrote:Tagright you must be use to a 2 healer group then ? Try DW or a 2H when tanking with a 1 healer group and lets see if the healer doesnt complain then... at this point in the game a lvl 50 can afford to tank witout a shield simply for more then half his grouping because 85-90% of the mobs in the game by that time are blue con or lower.... ( only time you would need to use a shield then is for named and or raid mobs ) At least in my guild , we operate our groups alot with one healer ( various teams within guild ) ... why would i put my group thru the downtime the Healer is going to have when i can be using a shield+1H? the 700+ ac + Block matters ALOT when tanking<hr></blockquote>I spent about 2 hours running my inquisitor operating as the sole healer for a berserker MT last night... half the time he used a 2h weapon and the other half he used a 1h sword and a tower shield.. it was definately noticible to me when he switched to the 2h weapon because I would burn about 25% more power up keeping him alive..It was still fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but I am glad I was a level higher than him and a bit ahead of him in heals.... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kaberu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Yes I am familiar with statalyzer and combatstats.. in fact I run with combatstats up 90% of the time just to keep an idea of whats going in... I hope I can get my monk up to that 117 before 42.. I have her fairly close (I believe 98 right now, at level 26)... and on her i am relying on avoidance.. its part of the flavor and theme I am going ... so I am familiar with it.. but yes I am going mitigation with my berserker... with a decent (for fighter) dps goal.. in fact as a result of this thread I went out and bought a set of DW maces and a new axe (and need to get a new 2h weapon) to do some more testing.. the last time I worked with dw was about level 23-24, so with a few more levels in me I figure that this is a good time to retest how things are working out for me with the healers and such in tow.. <BR><BR>So far though with sword and board (actually dagger at the moment) we are not really having a problem with mana consumption and can work at the speeds we are comfortable with, and have plenty of power left over for adds and other "issues". But we dont rest on that, we are always trying new combos of stuff to see new tactics.<BR><BR>If you dont mind, what equipment are you using to get to that agility, and what is your strength now? Cause now you have my curiosity piqued and I want to try new things again.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>My equipment is as follows... For armor, it's all <EM>pristine forged fulginate vanguard</EM> stuff except the boots which are <EM>Legendary Journeyman's Boots</EM>, for my version they have +5 AGI, +4 STR, +4 WIs for stats. Accessories are <EM>Necklace of Flowing Orbs</EM>, <EM>Fishbone Earring</EM>, <EM>Pristine Fashioned Diamondine Bands </EM>x 2, <EM>Worked Pewter Bracelet </EM>x 2 and a <EM>Mud-Caked Loincloth</EM>. Weapons are the <EM>Short Sword of Ykesha </EM>and a <EM>Serrated Bone Dirk </EM>with a <EM>Pristine Tailor Etched Sheath </EM>for my ranged. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nonbuffed stats are:</DIV> <DIV>Str 93</DIV> <DIV>Agi 117</DIV> <DIV>Sta 68</DIV> <DIV>Int 59</DIV> <DIV>Wis 69</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My agility is high due to me being a dark elf (starts around 25 or so and adds another 4 or 5 from a racial trait), but that also explains my lower than average stamina... compared to basic fighter class archetypes, I'm in between the avoidance of the brawlers with the mitigation of warriors. I avoid a little less than monks but when I do get hit, I take less damage due to the heavier armor. Essentially, I worked with the strengths of my race as opposed to trying to cover up weaknesses.:smileywink: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that is not an option for every race/berserker combo but it's still an effective way of tanking for grind situations. My agility is actually toned down a bit gearwise, I'm in the middle of a "switch-over" trend for my gear and I'm trying to re-arm myself with gear that focuses on different stat combos to try out new capabilities. The biggest issue was swapping out lower level, high attribute gear for lower attribute, high level gear to gain the extra resist bonuses. Plus I plan on trying to get a high Wisdom to aid in spell avoidance (such as replacing my Fishbone with a Stinkhoop) to see how that works out compared to agility. As of right now, I'm always the first to break from a mez trap ahead of the rest of my guild groups due to the focus on high resist items. So resists help (I know, duh), I just need to test how good Wisdom helps in spell avoidance. Anyway, once I'm done, I'm sure my AGI will take significant jumps back up with STR and STA following and I should wind up with a decent WIS to boot for some testing :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not that I haven't considered and tested out a shield, it's just I made my decision on that issue and went on to try changes in other areas. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing to note however.. the shield stuns are very useful... at a point though (somewhere around 40) you get a replacement for that line that does not require a shield to use. Right now at 42, I have 4 stuns, 5 interrupts, and 2 knockdowns all on seperate timers (none require a shield). Coupled with my higher avoidance and the parry boost from weapon shield (adds 11 right now, that's equal to parrying at 2.2 levels higher, I'll get an upgrade fairly soon :smileysurprised<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, the mobs don't usually hit me very often. With a pair of duals, hasted with my buffs and beserks.. I can hit up to 3 or 4 times within a second from just the basic melee attacks (not including damage from my weapon proc, Anarchy, Fury line or from riposting).. it lets me start building aggro much faster as soon as I switch targets before I even use an ability. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm probably not the best tank for Epic mobs with the possible exception of those that rely on resist-based spell attacks (especially if my WIS tests work out). As I have said, I'm fine with that since I am building myself to deal with masses of mobs more efficiently. My role in raids would be with the scouts, boosting their damage potential along with being a capable DPS and an impromptu add controller.</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Kaberu wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Ariven wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Yes I am familiar with statalyzer and combatstats.. in fact I run with combatstats up 90% of the time just to keep an idea of whats going in... I hope I can get my monk up to that 117 before 42.. I have her fairly close (I believe 98 right now, at level 26)... and on her i am relying on avoidance.. its part of the flavor and theme I am going ... so I am familiar with it.. but yes I am going mitigation with my berserker... with a decent (for fighter) dps goal.. in fact as a result of this thread I went out and bought a set of DW maces and a new axe (and need to get a new 2h weapon) to do some more testing.. the last time I worked with dw was about level 23-24, so with a few more levels in me I figure that this is a good time to retest how things are working out for me with the healers and such in tow.. <BR><BR>So far though with sword and board (actually dagger at the moment) we are not really having a problem with mana consumption and can work at the speeds we are comfortable with, and have plenty of power left over for adds and other "issues". But we dont rest on that, we are always trying new combos of stuff to see new tactics.<BR><BR>If you dont mind, what equipment are you using to get to that agility, and what is your strength now? Cause now you have my curiosity piqued and I want to try new things again.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>My equipment is as follows... For armor, it's all <EM>pristine forged fulginate vanguard</EM> stuff except the boots which are <EM>Legendary Journeyman's Boots</EM>,<hr></blockquote>Thank you for the list.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> it helps as I start to prep for my move to the 40s... I have been pushing the high agi route with some added strength with my wood elf monk... and have been tempted of late to try out a gnome or wood elf berserker.. but I am not sure i can force myself through the newb isle for a 15th time <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> nor level up a 4th fighter.. so maybe when I get bored of what i am working on...the agility nerf really hit my monk hard... but that was back when I had her at level 19, and I have pushed harder to compensate... and can handle anything at level 26 I could with my serker at 26 (and a bit more)...

[Kaberu]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>Thank you for the list.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> it helps as I start to prep for my move to the 40s... I have been pushing the high agi route with some added strength with my wood elf monk... and have been tempted of late to try out a gnome or wood elf berserker.. but I am not sure i can force myself through the newb isle for a 15th time <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> nor level up a 4th fighter.. so maybe when I get bored of what i am working on...<BR><BR>the agility nerf really hit my monk hard... but that was back when I had her at level 19, and I have pushed harder to compensate... and can handle anything at level 26 I could with my serker at 26 (and a bit more)...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I was under the impression that agility was only affected after it hit and exceeded 200. I read as much from a post by Moorgard:</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>STR  Old Bonus  New Bonus <BR>100    125%         125%<BR>200    150%         135%<BR>300    175%         145%<BR>400    200%         155%</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know it says STR but further down:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><EM>The last major update included a significant change to the way agility affected damage avoidance. Similar to the bonus given by strength shown above, agility had a major impact on how likely a character was to avoid an attack.</EM></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's also why Light Armor was given a 35% increase to mitigation. It helps compensate for the brawlers' lowered ability to avoid damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rerolling though? I don't think it's necessary. Like I'm doing for my particular combination: work with the inherent strengths. I chose dark elf not because of the high Agility but because Kaberu has always been a dark elf. When I started in EQOA, I was a Dark Elf Warrior. I put down my swords and armor and moved on to the ways of the dagger in Lineage II where I was a Dark Elf Abyss Walker. Finding my home shattered in Everquest II, I redonned my armor and embraced the hate fueled by Innoruuk and forged that into what I am now.. a Dark Elf Berserker. It wasn't until after I started playing the game that I had to work with what I was given. Pure mitigation tanking would be hard for me to excel at but I still had a job to do... tanking. So I found an alternate means of doing so. You will always be at a disadvantage in one situation or another, the question is what situation do you like to throw yourself at?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Kaberu wrote:<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>Thank you for the list.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> it helps as I start to prep for my move to the 40s... I have been pushing the high agi route with some added strength with my wood elf monk... and have been tempted of late to try out a gnome or wood elf berserker.. but I am not sure i can force myself through the newb isle for a 15th time <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> nor level up a 4th fighter.. so maybe when I get bored of what i am working on...<BR><BR>the agility nerf really hit my monk hard... but that was back when I had her at level 19, and I have pushed harder to compensate... and can handle anything at level 26 I could with my serker at 26 (and a bit more)...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I was under the impression that agility was only affected after it hit and exceeded 200. I read as much from a post by Moorgard:</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>STR Old Bonus New Bonus <BR>100 125% 125%<BR>200 150% 135%<BR>300 175% 145%<BR>400 200% 155%</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know it says STR but further down:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><EM>The last major update included a significant change to the way agility affected damage avoidance. Similar to the bonus given by strength shown above, agility had a major impact on how likely a character was to avoid an attack.</EM></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's also why Light Armor was given a 35% increase to mitigation. It helps compensate for the brawlers' lowered ability to avoid damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rerolling though? I don't think it's necessary. Like I'm doing for my particular combination: work with the inherent strengths. I chose dark elf not because of the high Agility but because Kaberu has always been a dark elf. When I started in EQOA, I was a Dark Elf Warrior. I put down my swords and armor and moved on to the ways of the dagger in Lineage II where I was a Dark Elf Abyss Walker. Finding my home shattered in Everquest II, I redonned my armor and embraced the hate fueled by Innoruuk and forged that into what I am now.. a Dark Elf Berserker. It wasn't until after I started playing the game that I had to work with what I was given. Pure mitigation tanking would be hard for me to excel at but I still had a job to do... tanking. So I found an alternate means of doing so. You will always be at a disadvantage in one situation or another, the question is what situation do you like to throw yourself at?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>The agility nerf made a clear and noticible change in what I could and could not do with my monk... regardless of how the strength nerf went down... there was something done on the agility pass that affected me...As for rerolling? no.. I was probably unclear... I am tempted to try out a gnome or wood elf berserker just for the fun of it.. trying the high agility angle instead of high str/sta angle.. I would still be keeping and playing my main (and the other 6 alts I have)... I just like trying new things and testing stuff out... I just am getting burnt out on the newbie isle and i'm not sure I can force myself to run it again... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />For the record, yes I have no life.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I currently have a 31 serker, 26 Monk, 25 Inquisitor, 23 Swashbuckler, 15 Druid, 14 Cursader and a 13 or 14 Sorcerer. I am really liking the healing angle, but also love tanking with the serk or monk.. it all depends on my mood a given night and what my guildmates have planned/need help with....

[caine71]

I'm sorry guys, but if you want to use a shield, my personal opinion is play a Guardian or Knight Class. In my opinion, real Zerkers don't use shields.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Using a shield, just takes away from the whole experience of playing a Berserker. Don't get me wrong, I have an alt character which is a Shadow Knight, and I love the whole shield and sword thing, I just don't think that shields are for Zerkers. Just my two cents, have fun.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <p>Message Edited by caine71 on <span class=date_text>03-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:07 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Have fun dieing then, and not being a realiable tank for your group, i take it you group with 2 healers alot if you dont use shield and 1 hander much or at all. Anything that is ornage con or above, i use shield and 1 hander, anything that is lower con then ornage, i use Dual Weilds, if i have 2 healers in my group, i just dual weild all the time. Against named mobs, i always don the shield and 1 hand wep, you have a much greater chance at succes with a 1 hander and shield vs named mobs, and besides, if Berserkers werent meant to wear a shield, why can we wear the best shields in the game?</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 AM</span>

[Styk]

caine71 if that is how you feel then good for you, everyone has a right to play their berserker their own way.... Don't be mad then when healers in your group start to complain about being out of power and asking you to use a 1H + shield..... the AC and Block ability is too valuable in groups if you are MTStrykr Destructicus47 BerserkerAB server

[Styk]

Thinman i still dps over 100 with a 1H+ shield.... what is your point? Wait what lvl are you btw? I really want to see you "dps" when a wizard hits ice comet and ganks your agro right from you ? Thou DPS is a MINOR componant to out agro generation, skills like Raging Blow, Promise of Violance , Bully etc always get major use in a Tanking Role for me , then i use Relentless Battering ( i have it at Master 1 ) and No Quarter ( also have that at Master 1 ) then rinse - repeat... that is alot of agro there, maybe throw in a Mutilation attack here and there....

[Kaberu]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>caine71 if that is how you feel then good for you, everyone has a right to play their berserker their own way.... Don't be mad then when healers in your group start to complain about being out of power and asking you to use a 1H + shield..... the AC and Block ability is too valuable in groups if you are MT<BR><BR>Strykr Destructicus<BR>47 Berserker<BR>AB server<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well I haven't had any complaints yet at 42 and power never seems to be a problem for healers I group with on a regular basis. Usually the first ones out of power are the other DPS classes because the pulling is going faster than their regen rate allows. I'll be sure to let you know if someone complains or asks me to switch to a shield. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers take note: Right now I can keep a melee mob out of commission with my 4 stuns and 2 knockdowns for the first 20 or so seconds easy and if it is a caster, I have also have 5 interupts to prevent casting that I can cycle through. If you play your cards right, your group will have nearly killed it (if it's not dead by then) by the time it gets a chance to lay on some real damage. If not, it only has a small window before stuns and knockdowns recycle and my Interrupts can be cycled indefinately as long as I have the power for it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You CAN focus on mitigation, but you don't have to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone mentioned that they gave us the ability to use the best shield for a reason. Well they also gave us the ability to dual wield for a reason too... so we have a choice :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>>  Caine71:  I'm sorry guys, but if you want to use a shield, my personal opinion is play a Guardian or Knight Class. In my opinion, real Zerkers don't use shields.<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> Using a shield, just takes away from the whole experience of playing a Berserker. Don't get me wrong, I have an alt character which is a Shadow Knight, and I love the whole shield and sword thing, I just don't think that shields are for Zerkers. Just my two cents, have fun.<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0>  <</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Caine, why dont you go and play a Brawler or Monk? That fits your idea of a berserker more, doesnt it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers in EQ2 are TANKS, not DPS.  Its the first  mmorpg i play where a Berserker is able to wear the heaviest armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that Zerkers in classic  rpg are  fighters that go into fights wearing middle armor (tops) and are all DPS, but here in EQ2 we  are TANKS first, DPS second.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who is wrong? I dont know,  all i know is all this Berserker conception of a fighter wearing poor armor is not at all realistic in  historic terms.  Shields were used by them and were a primary requisite for a warrior, just look it up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If youre the MT in a group, i strongly advise you to use  1h and shield, the blocking ability + extra shield styles  are very welcome to your healers.  I was invited while at Tradeskill instance yesterday from a group in Rivervale, i went there and we rocked. I was the only tank in group and yes i used 1h and shield.  My DPS was still great, but more importantly i tanked well and had no problems with aggro or anything. I keep getting invites from people far away because my tanking abilities are becoming famous, and no.... i didnt need to choose a Guardian to tank well,  i can do that as well as deal great DPS while off-tanking or soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerkers shine in every role they're at,  wether its  Tanking,  Off-tanking or Soloing,  we are elite fighters and i would never choose a Guardian over my class, we are much more versatile.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[caine71]

<DIV>Caine, why dont you go and play a Brawler or Monk? That fits your idea of a berserker more, doesnt it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=81066" target=top><SPAN>Davish_Darkwolf</SPAN></A> - My definition of a Berserker is a warrior who deals massive damage and strikes fear into their opponents, with little regard to the pain and wounds inflicted upon them. So no, I don't want to be a brawler or monk, but seems to me that even though you don't want to be a Guardian you're playing one from a character concept/roleplay view. Anyways, to each their own, I'll enjoy playing my Zerker and you enjoy playing your wannabe Guardian <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />-----sarcasm</DIV>

[Sabin the Gre]

One quick note:  I was using dropped dual wields (better than reg crafted but not as good as rare crafted) last night and looked at my listed spell damage.  Adept 3 Vanquish was listed as 660 damage.  When I equiped a 1 handed raid quality weapon + shield my listed damage was in the 800's.  This was the same across the board.  I showed an overal 20% gain on listed skill damage by equiping a 1 handed weapon.  Going to finish heirocrook tonight and compare again.  But in battles which are skill intensive, its important to keep this damage difference in mind.  So its really accurate to look at the damage that dualwields are by having two weapons to attack with, vs the damage that your skills are hitting for with a one-handed weapon.

[caine71]

<DIV> <DIV>Are you sure that it's not the bonuses on the sword and shield that are increasing the skill damage? If the sword or shield has higher power and strength bonuses that might increase the damage of the skill. I was told that the type of weapon you use has no bearing on your skill efficency, unless that type is required by that skill such as press or power cleave, etc. I will check this tonight, and post feedback.</DIV></DIV>

[Kaberu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sabin the Great wrote:<BR> One quick note:  I was using dropped dual wields (better than reg crafted but not as good as rare crafted) last night and looked at my listed spell damage.  Adept 3 Vanquish was listed as 660 damage.  When I equiped a 1 handed raid quality weapon + shield my listed damage was in the 800's.  This was the same across the board.  I showed an overal 20% gain on listed skill damage by equiping a 1 handed weapon.  Going to finish heirocrook tonight and compare again.  But in battles which are skill intensive, its important to keep this damage difference in mind.  So its really accurate to look at the damage that dualwields are by having two weapons to attack with, vs the damage that your skills are hitting for with a one-handed weapon.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Raid quality drops have jacked up stats. If you buff put on a strength buff, your damage for that skill will show an increase as well. It's especially notable when when you break one of the STR barriers (100, 150, 200 300 400). A raid quality dual can have the same effect.</P> <P>Berserker's are FIGHTERS. Fighters are classified as a tank but that is ONE of their abilities. Fighters fight. We take the fight to the mob and we bring the fight to us. We hold aggro, take damage, deal damage and in general, kick alot of crap out of things. To say that DPS is not important to a fighter is like saying evac and pathfinding are not important to a scout because a scout is a DPS class. </P> <P>There is a reason we can use a mass variety of weapons. There is a reason we can wear a plethora of armor styles. There is a reason we can wield two weapons at once and yes, there is a reason we can wield all manner of shields. We have thousands of more combinations available to us compared to other classes and we can learn to fight effectively for nearly all of them. To say or imply that one can only effectively tank with a shield is shortsighted and an insult to those who have taken down epics without one just as it is shortsighted to say that it is better to not use a shield. </P> <P>The basic problem here is this: Those that are use to and prefer to use shields don't adapt to dual wielding the same way that dual wielders do. The same goes for dual wielders trying to use shields. There is a mentality behind each that effects the development of the character's stats and abilities and choices in gear and more importantly: playstyle. So for a dual wielder to go out and "test" a shield is going to result in a lower effectiveness that a tried and true shield user would show while he is using one and vice versa. </P> <P> </P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaberu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sabin the Great wrote:<BR> One quick note:  I was using dropped dual wields (better than reg crafted but not as good as rare crafted) last night and looked at my listed spell damage.  Adept 3 Vanquish was listed as 660 damage.  When I equiped a 1 handed raid quality weapon + shield my listed damage was in the 800's.  This was the same across the board.  I showed an overal 20% gain on listed skill damage by equiping a 1 handed weapon.  Going to finish heirocrook tonight and compare again.  But in battles which are skill intensive, its important to keep this damage difference in mind.  So its really accurate to look at the damage that dualwields are by having two weapons to attack with, vs the damage that your skills are hitting for with a one-handed weapon.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Raid quality drops have jacked up stats. If you buff put on a strength buff, your damage for that skill will show an increase as well. It's especially notable when when you break one of the STR barriers (100, 150, 200 300 400). A raid quality dual can have the same effect.</P> <P>Berserker's are FIGHTERS. Fighters are classified as a tank but that is ONE of their abilities. Fighters fight. We take the fight to the mob and we bring the fight to us. We hold aggro, take damage, deal damage and in general, kick alot of crap out of things. To say that DPS is not important to a fighter is like saying evac and pathfinding are not important to a scout because a scout is a DPS class. </P> <P>There is a reason we can use a mass variety of weapons. There is a reason we can wear a plethora of armor styles. There is a reason we can wield two weapons at once and yes, there is a reason we can wield all manner of shields. We have thousands of more combinations available to us compared to other classes and we can learn to fight effectively for nearly all of them. To say or imply that one can only effectively tank with a shield is shortsighted and an insult to those who have taken down epics without one just as it is shortsighted to say that it is better to not use a shield. </P> <P>The basic problem here is this: Those that are use to and prefer to use shields don't adapt to dual wielding the same way that dual wielders do. The same goes for dual wielders trying to use shields. There is a mentality behind each that effects the development of the character's stats and abilities and choices in gear and more importantly: playstyle. So for a dual wielder to go out and "test" a shield is going to result in a lower effectiveness that a tried and true shield user would show while he is using one and vice versa. </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Anyone who is a decent tank and knows his stuff, knows that there is parts and areas where you can Dual weild, and there is other parts and areas where you <STRONG><U>need</U></STRONG> a shield and 1 hander wep, with out one you and your group would be smeared all over the floor.</P> <P>I myself have a Set of Slashing, Piercing and Crushing Dual Weilds, i have a set of Slashing, Piercing and Crushing One Handers and i have a Pristine Conditioned Cedar Tower shield, this way, i am ready for anything that may be immune to slashing, crushing or piercing, i also have sets that include, dropped, player made and Heritage sets for the same three offense skills, because its not always about being immune to the three offense skills, mobs can also be immuned to player made weps, or dropped weps and even Heritage weps. I carry these sets on me at all times and i name my bag The Arsenal. </P> <P>Being prepared is what makes a <STRONG><U>good</U></STRONG> player, knowing when, where and how to use different weapon combinations at certain times in conjunction with certain buffs and combat arts, is what makes a <STRONG><U>great</U></STRONG> tank.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Kaberu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Anyone who is a decent tank and knows his stuff, knows that there is parts and areas where you can Dual weild, and there is other parts and areas where you <STRONG><U>need</U></STRONG> a shield and 1 hander wep, with out one you and your group would be smeared all over the floor.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I myself have a Set of Slashing, Piercing and Crushing Dual Weilds, i have a set of Slashing, Piercing and Crushing One Handers and i have a Pristine Conditioned Cedar Tower shield, this way, i am ready for anything that may be immune to slashing, crushing or piercing, i also have sets that include, dropped, player made and Heritage sets for the same three offense skills, because its not always about being immune to the three offense skills, mobs can also be immuned to player made weps, or dropped weps and even Heritage weps. I carry these sets on me at all times and i name my bag The Arsenal. </P> <P>Being prepared is what makes a <STRONG><U>good</U></STRONG> player, knowing when, where and how to use different weapon combinations at certain times in conjunction with certain buffs and combat arts, is what makes a <STRONG><U>great</U></STRONG> tank.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm sorry Aeonein, but you should really go back and reread every post I made under this topic. I think You'll find that in pretty much every reply I recommended a shield for certain encounters. Running around with a shield ALL the time was the area that I disputed as a point of necessity. You said it yourself that you keep alternate weapon styles in your pack.... so you agree it's not needed all the time. The issue of the poster: He didn't understand the benefits of "to shield or not to shield" and didn't realize the necessity or lack thereof in the many situations of the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As easy as it may be for you to come by, we don't all have the kind of money for that kind of arsenal. I certainly don't. I'll eventually build one up, but as of now... I don't. :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For 90 to 95% or so of the mobs out there, the shield will be optional. But the real fun (and best drops) are the raid mobs and for those you'll probably want as much mitigation as possible IF you want to attempt tanking one yourself... and that means having the biggest, toughest shield you can get your hands on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Well i really dont buy anything to be honest, i buy what i need to buy, not what i want to buy. Cedar on my server has been a pretty low price lately, as low as 20 gold, so i was lucky enough to get 2 pristine conditioned cedar batons and a cedar tower shield made up, rest is mostly cheaper stuff but gets the job done but i dont spend money on stuff i can easily quest or farm myself, im some what a bit of a tight [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if you will say, but saving my money for Ebon Armor, which everyone knows, is not cheap.</P> <P>Also i was one of the orginal replyers to this thread, i was relating to you what you said previously with my own experiences. One thing to learn in this game, is never get used to one thing, cause it will break you later on down the track.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 44th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Zerofault]

<DIV>Well for any of you worried about choosing berserker and tanking high end raid content... don't be.. I have tanked all instanced mobs, venekor, asphyxia...  We are a very viable choice, but I do recommend to ALWAYS use a shield when tanking named encounters unless they are really weak.  You don't lose much dps and you save your healers alot of mana.  With shield i usually come in around 4th or 5th on damage output while tanking epic raid mobs...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV>

[Kaberu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zerofault wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well for any of you worried about choosing berserker and tanking high end raid content... don't be.. I have tanked all instanced mobs, venekor, asphyxia...  We are a very viable choice, but I do recommend to ALWAYS use a shield when tanking named encounters unless they are really weak.  You don't lose much dps and you save your healers alot of mana.  With shield i usually come in around 4th or 5th on damage output while tanking epic raid mobs...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's what I'm saying! I'll never dispute that a zerker should go with a shield for those mobs. It's the other stuff where it becomes more a matter of preference.

[Andur]

<P>Group=Shield</P> <P>Solo=2-Hander</P>

[ArivenGemini]

After the new ac/avoidance/mitigation number patch came down.. I went in eager to see what it showed.... If those numbers are correct, my tower shield on my 31 serker adds a whopping 5% avoidance to getting hit... I have to say, with such a low improvement as 5%.... I am not sure that it is enough of a avoidance boost to really make much of a difference in most content when compared to the stat bonuses you can get with some weapons....in really heavy hitting stuff like raid content or high order mobs 5% can be quite a boost.. but if they are above your level that 5% is less since these numbers are calculated vs an average mob at your level.. So, I have to change my view on this... for normal content getting better damage and more importantly getting better stats can very easily overwhelm a whopping 5% avoidance as far as I am concerned.. Maybe others of you get better changes.. but for me... I am gonna go get me a nice 2h weapon and play with that for a while ... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[einar4]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> caine71 wrote:<BR> I'm sorry guys, but if you want to use a shield, my personal opinion is play a Guardian or Knight Class. In my opinion, real Zerkers don't use shields.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Using a shield, just takes away from the whole experience of playing a Berserker. Don't get me wrong, I have an alt character which is a Shadow Knight, and I love the whole shield and sword thing, I just don't think that shields are for Zerkers. Just my two cents, have fun.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P>Message Edited by caine71 on <SPAN class=date_text>03-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:07 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> You have a hollywood view of berserkers then.  The Berserkir was a Norse warrior that would work themselves into a blood rage before battle.  This had nothing to do with their weapons.  </P> <P>The documented evidence is of course the Norse Sagas, where they were usally depicted in not the best of light, HOWEVER, in one instance there is a description of Berserkirs being thwarted in some way and chewing on their shields in consternation.  Also there are references by the Irish of the norhmen berserkers running at them while beating their weapons against their shields, frothing at the mouth (literaly) and screaming incoherently as "a beast with many mouths and a single voice." </P> <P> Berserker is about the mind set, not the weapon choice.  But... if you really want to be 100% accurate in your desire to be a "real" Zerker, then don't wear armor.  The berserkers wore next to nothing when they charged into combat.  You should not wear anything higher than leather, then criticize others for their choice of weapon style. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sabin the Gre]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaberu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sabin the Great wrote:<BR> One quick note:  I was using dropped dual wields (better than reg crafted but not as good as rare crafted) last night and looked at my listed spell damage.  Adept 3 Vanquish was listed as 660 damage.  When I equiped a 1 handed raid quality weapon + shield my listed damage was in the 800's.  This was the same across the board.  I showed an overal 20% gain on listed skill damage by equiping a 1 handed weapon.  Going to finish heirocrook tonight and compare again.  But in battles which are skill intensive, its important to keep this damage difference in mind.  So its really accurate to look at the damage that dualwields are by having two weapons to attack with, vs the damage that your skills are hitting for with a one-handed weapon.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#66ff00>Raid quality drops have jacked up stats. If you buff put on a strength buff, your damage for that skill will show an increase as well. It's especially notable when when you break one of the STR barriers (100, 150, 200 300 400). A raid quality dual can have the same effect.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Under this line of thinking I should actually do more damage with two dual wields (b/c I can get roughly 20 str depending on the two that I use, as supposed to the 14-15ish on the Tundran Axe). The information given was also unbuffed so indepent of any skill/str bonuses given by skills.  </P> <P>I think the new Damage Rating on weapons explains this better now than does and stat or single hand increases.  The two weapons I were dualwielding at the time had ratings of 21 and 21 where as my Tundran Axe had a rating of 44.  This held true as well when I switched from Tundran Axe to Heirophant Staff (44-50 damage rating) and my skills went up.  So I think now the question of what to wield will be easier to compare due to the comparibility of damage ratings.  </P>

[Chanliang]

First of all it doesnt matter whether you dw or use shield your mitigation is same in both. Shield armor rating only defines block % in avoidance period.  If you wear a shield you have additional chance to block/avoid incoming hit.  With dual wield you have basicly 1 advantage vs. 2h or 1h+shield imo that you'll get nice mods from both weaps.  But then again +20 str and +20agi  is going to give you +10 attack (didnt check real values) and 0.8% to base avoidance and 0.8% parry.  With 1h or 2h you'll get less ripostes. Also at higher levels berserkers have quite nice haste effects and think where you'll get more out of it, 50% speed away from 1.3sec weapon or 50% speed away from 3sec weapon which hits hard. Also we dont know if there is hard cap on attack speeds. I most certain believe that there is either 0.5sec or 1 sec. You'll propably keep aggro better with dw tho cause you are creating constantly aggro faster.  And if you're going to dw route I strongly suggest investing in agility cause in the end it'll help a lot.  Anyways suppose every combination works rather well for us cause we aren't so avoidance based (though that was brawlers job <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) as guardians are in tanking. <div></div>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>As for me, if im the main tank, i usually use 1h and shield,   all other roles, wether solo or off-tank  its all  2hander or dual wield to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im soloing 5-6 green / blue mobs in Ferrott at level 41 and only using my faithful Mammoth,  while soloing i very rarely use my shield, unless fighting really hard mobs (but even then i hesitate).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But when main tank, shield gives that defense edge.</DIV>

[devinmccla]

<DIV>I think its situational.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance wise, I choosed to play a Dark Elf berserker for a reason, My AGI stats are almost as high as a scout (115+ in my mid 30s, my STR stats are the same) and the shield just gives an added bonus to that. Usually I get along fine tanking mobs using dual wields for now. DPS as well as taunt abilities and AOE attacks are very helpful in keeping aggro. If it gets bad i've been known to equip a shield during a fight. Also raid mobs I'll always use a shield, makes a big difference when you are off tanking and get getting beat on whil everyone else is assisting the MA on the weaker mobs first. Thats why I spend money and buy all the "treasured" armor I can, player crafted is OK at first but In my late 30s I have almost all plate armor and silvril helm and boots along w/ guardian's gauntlets. lvl 40 is comming soon and I'm not sure if im going to go the fulginate route right away. IMO looted/quested armor will always be better so if anyone has any suggestions that would be much appreciated. Also, what has better damgae output, 2h or dual wield? And one more thing... Tower shields are good but the best T4 shield (Guard of Grumm) is a kite shield, And last time I checked Deputy Badge is a kite shield as well <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[BraveSma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Davish_Darkwolf wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you are the Main Tank, you should use a shield. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only it increases your AC, giving you better mitigation, it also permits you to block attacks and do some special shield moves (ie.  shield bash,  press)  that can for instance stun or decrease the offense of your enemy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My shield for instance, gives me   455+  AC.  That really helps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if youre soloing against multiple mobs, using a shield can also be useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding shield classes, the bigger your shield, the better AC it gives you.  Tower shields give the best protection, while Bucklers have the least.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <SPAN class=date_text>03-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:12 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Kite shields are better than tower shields.</P> <P>And shields give you avoidance, not mitigation (through blocking)</P>