Berserkers are not appreciated enough

[Gath]

<DIV>I play on the Runnyeye server. Lately I have noticed that groups tend to pick Monks and guardians over us as main tanks because they have higher AC (At level 31 my AC was less with a pristine briarwood tower shield, pristine feysteel legs, and full Tier 4 pristine playermade equipment. They tend to pick Paladins and SKs as backup tanks over us. The strangest thing I notices is they pick scouts (I have always doubled the damage of scouts up to two levels higher than me) over use for DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm starting to wonder if I should reroll and start a finger wiggler. A guild mate of mine is having the same problem as a level 36 Berserker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We need to get the word out that berserkers are great for DPS and can hold aggro well enough that the mages do not have to worry about nuking slowly.</DIV>

[DaemonSlay]

<DIV>tell them? SHOW THEM!!! *laughs psycotically" </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>who cares what they think? we know what we're good at, and thats killing!</DIV>

[Cabbagelo]

<DIV>WE know our DPS kicks butt. </DIV> <DIV>I parse dps whenever I am grouped and in AoE situations very very rarely does anyone within several lvls out dps my 34 zerker using slime coated mace and slime coated harpoon.  In fact quite often I find myself doing almost as much damage as everyone else combined! (Especially on large group orange mobs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But that doesn't mean diddly if everyone else out there thinks we suck.  If we can't get into a group in the first place, how can we disprove everyone's misconception we are a broken class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the only way around this is for all zerker to parse dps whenever we are grouped, so we get give imperical evidence that we are indeed damage dealing machines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cabbagelord wrote:<BR> <DIV>WE know our DPS kicks butt. </DIV> <DIV>I parse dps whenever I am grouped and in AoE situations very very rarely does anyone within several lvls out dps my 34 zerker using slime coated mace and slime coated harpoon.  In fact quite often I find myself doing almost as much damage as everyone else combined! (Especially on large group orange mobs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But that doesn't mean diddly if everyone else out there thinks we suck.  If we can't get into a group in the first place, how can we disprove everyone's misconception we are a broken class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the only way around this is for all zerker to parse dps whenever we are grouped, so we get give imperical evidence that we are indeed damage dealing machines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> All that will do is get us nerfed.  All you have to do is form groups and if you are good, people come back for more.  I get a lot of tells all day with people wanting to group with me.

[Styk]

No it wont get us nerfed.... if you look at our skills like BloodRage and Rampage alone it has AE dps written all over it... we do situational dps ( mainly large group fights ) also we have utility in groups now with our Haste/HP/ATk buffs... ( 37 and up ) after being assist in a group with a dirge and assasin they noticed big time when i didnt buff ToW/Screaming Fury... i cant wait till i can use my adept 1 for Destructive Rage.... Berserkers overall now are were they should be at.... we still have broken skills but all classes do... hell even in raids we have a place.... put us in a group with melee dps and they will put out alot more dps because of our buffs

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>No it wont get us nerfed.... if you look at our skills like BloodRage and Rampage alone it has AE dps written all over it... we do situational dps ( mainly large group fights ) also we have utility in groups now with our Haste/HP/ATk buffs... ( 37 and up ) after being assist in a group with a dirge and assasin they noticed big time when i didnt buff ToW/Screaming Fury... i cant wait till i can use my adept 1 for Destructive Rage.... <BR><BR>Berserkers overall now are were they should be at.... we still have broken skills but all classes do... hell even in raids we have a place.... put us in a group with melee dps and they will put out alot more dps because of our buffs<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I'm not sure we are where we should be.  I'm level 38 now, but at 36 I was in an RE group with an equal level necro recently.  Had a ranger and assassin too.  He kept parsing out the DPS of the fights, and over and over I beat everyones DPS on single and AE fights.  On AE fights I usually doubled the next best thing.</P> <P>Another time after that, I was with a wizard after their big buff patch.  He also kept parsing out DPS.  We kept swapping high DPS on single and AE fights.  (hitting around 80 on singles and up to 150 on AE fights).  I really don't think it was intended for us to do so much DPS.</P>

[Styk]

If you were out dpsing an assasin on singles then that person isnt playing his class right... was the assasin using poisons? If not the thats why.... predator/rogues should always use poisons since its at least 25% of there dps.... AE fight i can believe we top dps but single target mobs we shouldnt be, i know i wasnt at 38

[Padi]

<DIV>On single targets, I frequently don't, but frequently do.  But on AE fights I double theirs.  My DPS ranges from about 70-180</DIV>

[DaemonSlay]

<DIV>i always DPS... but i also love the twohanded axe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Fundi]

<DIV>      I have found that I outdamage many of the damage classes that are "supposed" to do more damage.  This game depends greatly on how focused you are on the game and how quickly you mash buttons and in what order.  Some monks I outdamage at 4 lvls higher than me, some at the same lvl do the same damage as me.  Same with scouts.  My scout friend told me that if a scout isn't going into sneak (invis), he isn't doing his max damage.  Many people just auto attack and throw in a few moves here and there.  It extremely hard to tell which class is better than which class because of how much how a person plays influences their damage.  </DIV> <DIV>       Here's my theory.  It takes a WHOLE lot more focus and paying attention to tank well than it does to do damage well.  Tanking (maybe healing) is the hardest role to play in a group.  There is no way anyone can convincingly argue otherwise.  So, since berserkers tank about half the time or more (on average), we are used to having to pay attention to the game.  Scouts and mages on the other hand have only ever done damage, thus they get into the habit of thinking "no one will know if I'm only half trying" (if the tank doesn't do his best, the group dies (healers also, but that's a different story)).  "The group wont die if I only do half as much damage as I can do".  "I can go grab a drink during this pull, I don't matter too much."   You get the idea.  Sooooo, since berserkers get into the habit of having to pay attention, they go all out all the time even when they are DPSing.  I'm not saying all scouts only throw in abilities here and there, nor am I saying berserkers are gods on norrath.  I'm just saying that the above is the JIST of why we outdamage other damage classes who in theory should do more damage that us.  </DIV> <DIV>      It's only a thought.  We may actually be able to outdamage scouts and mages when we are both trying our hardest, but in my experience, this is not the case.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Fundinn on <span class=date_text>02-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:44 PM</span>

[NoSympathy_FU]

<blockquote><hr>Fundinn wrote:<DIV></div><DIV> I have found that I outdamage many of the damage classes that are "supposed" to do more damage. This game depends greatly on how focused you are on the game and how quickly you mash buttons and in what order. Some monks I outdamage at 4 lvls higher than me, some at the same lvl do the same damage as me. Same with scouts. My scout friend told me that if a scout isn't going into sneak (invis), he isn't doing his max damage. Many people just auto attack and throw in a few moves here and there. It extremely hard to tell which class is better than which class because of how much how a person plays influences their damage. </div><DIV> Here's my theory. It takes a WHOLE lot more focus and paying attention to tank well than it does to do damage well. Tanking (maybe healing) is the hardest role to play in a group. There is no way anyone can convincingly argue otherwise. So, since berserkers tank about half the time or more (on average), we are used to having to pay attention to the game. Scouts and mages on the other hand have only ever done damage, thus they get into the habit of thinking "no one will know if I'm only half trying" (if the tank doesn't do his best, the group dies (healers also, but that's a different story)). "The group wont die if I only do half as much damage as I can do". "I can go grab a drink during this pull, I don't matter too much." You get the idea. Sooooo, since berserkers get into the habit of having to pay attention, they go all out all the time even when they are DPSing. I'm not saying all scouts only throw in abilities here and there, nor am I saying berserkers are gods on norrath. I'm just saying that the above is the JIST of why we outdamage other damage classes who in theory should do more damage that us. </div><DIV> It's only a thought. We may actually be able to outdamage scouts and mages when we are both trying our hardest, but in my experience, this is not the case. </div><p>Message Edited by Fundinn on <span class=date_text>02-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:44 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Exactly, got to agree with that. Parsing a pickup group can gives you an idea of the damage but to truly know if we can constantly outdamage other classes it have to be done duoing with with someone that is same level, equiped with best gear for his class, using poisons good skills/spells (no App I here) and that is really trying.Damage output in pickup groups is too much situational, everyone can see (and feel *grins*) if the tank is not trying hard enough but will anyone really notice if the ranger was afk for half a pull?

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Fundinn wrote: Here's my theory. It takes a WHOLE lot more focus and paying attention to tank well than it does to do damage well. Tanking (maybe healing) is the hardest role to play in a group. There is no way anyone can convincingly argue otherwis<hr></blockquote>Oh yeah, tanking takes a lot of focus for me.. to the point where it totally drains me of energy after a few hours of it... and far more than the amount of energy I have to put into healing with my inquisitor... I think tanking is more because we are focused on the entire group life... where the healer is primarily focused on the tank... but tanking is definately more intense for me...

[Chanos]

<blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<blockquote><hr>Fundinn wrote: Here's my theory. It takes a WHOLE lot more focus and paying attention to tank well than it does to do damage well. Tanking (maybe healing) is the hardest role to play in a group. There is no way anyone can convincingly argue otherwis<hr></blockquote>Oh yeah, tanking takes a lot of focus for me.. to the point where it totally drains me of energy after a few hours of it... and far more than the amount of energy I have to put into healing with my inquisitor... I think tanking is more because we are focused on the entire group life... where the healer is primarily focused on the tank... but tanking is definately more intense for me...<hr></blockquote>...and tanking is so much more fun than just pure dps, at least for me. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I rather play 2-3 hours tanking my rear off than being in a group for 4-5 hours and feeling bored after 2 hours because i rarely have to take care for what i'm doing./Cathul

[Styk]

Seems to me that zerkers are only mentioned in this game period when we get nerfed down some and people want to make fun of a class..... ex. ive placed a post in the test section and spells abilities section so far about Greater Fury not working right... Only person to response was Aoenion from our boards... so much for testers eh? I guess too many classes hate on us zerkers for having the best of both worlds.... Agro kings with dps to boot

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Chanosys wrote:<blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<blockquote><hr>Fundinn wrote: Here's my theory. It takes a WHOLE lot more focus and paying attention to tank well than it does to do damage well. Tanking (maybe healing) is the hardest role to play in a group. There is no way anyone can convincingly argue otherwis<hr></blockquote>Oh yeah, tanking takes a lot of focus for me.. to the point where it totally drains me of energy after a few hours of it... and far more than the amount of energy I have to put into healing with my inquisitor... I think tanking is more because we are focused on the entire group life... where the healer is primarily focused on the tank... but tanking is definately more intense for me...<hr></blockquote>...and tanking is so much more fun than just pure dps, at least for me. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I rather play 2-3 hours tanking my rear off than being in a group for 4-5 hours and feeling bored after 2 hours because i rarely have to take care for what i'm doing./Cathul<hr></blockquote>Yeah, I am a control type.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I like directing combat and handling the tanking duties... I have a couple DPS alts, but play my fighters and my healer far more than the others.. and the healer is so far below tanking in stress I play it for relaxation.. gives me enough stimulation to keep me awake and laid back enough to not get burnt out.

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fundinn wrote:<BR> <DIV>     We may actually be able to outdamage scouts and mages when we are both trying our hardest, but in my experience, this is not the case.  </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Fundinn on <SPAN class=date_text>02-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:44 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We can't man...not on less than 3 mobs.  I good indicator of whether other classes are *snoozing* is to watch their power bar.  I cant tell you how many times I think I'm doing alotta dps just to look and see the Scouts power bar is full (for good reasons in most cases like they need to take the dog out, wife/parent calls, etc all).</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>CherobylJoe wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Fundinn wrote:<BR><DIV> We may actually be able to outdamage scouts and mages when we are both trying our hardest, but in my experience, this is not the case. </DIV><P>Message Edited by Fundinn on <SPAN class=date_text>02-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:44 PM</SPAN><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We can't man...not on less than 3 mobs. I good indicator of whether other classes are *snoozing* is to watch their power bar. I cant tell you how many times I think I'm doing alotta dps just to look and see the Scouts power bar is full (for good reasons in most cases like they need to take the dog out, wife/parent calls, etc all).</P><P> </P><P> </P><P> </P><P><BR> </P><hr></blockquote>in cases where they actually walk away from the computer I would hope that they give a courtesy comment into chat that they have to go afk... and hopefully go on follow on someone in case we need to run..And if they dont give notice they are afk, and they are on evac watch... things could get bad fast... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Common courtesy from anyone in the group requires letting everyone else know that they have to go away... since everyone participates to a whole the whole process can be damaged... and I can think of quite a few situations where the ranger going afk would have meant a critical difference in how fast we take stuff down.That said as for the power bar... I try to aim for 50% consumption of power of all the group on each pull.. I figure that means we are working to best balance of incoming xp, outgoing specials and with leeway in case of adds that require ramping up of power...

[wulfgarthegreat]

<DIV>I am lvl 34 zerker on tox and i don't have a problem finding grps but then i have built up a large amount of people that know me and know that i am a good tank and half the time even if i am a lvl or two behind the tank that was there when joined they normally defer to me becuase i hold my agroo very well while still keeping my damage out put up the only problem i am having now is finding adepts at the higher lvls anybody else haveing this problem</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fundi]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>in cases where they actually walk away from the computer I would hope that they give a courtesy comment into chat that they have to go afk... and hopefully go on follow on someone in case we need to run..</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>       In my experience, scouts are the worst at this.  They turn on attack and then go AFK frequently.  A way to stop them from doing this is to post the parser stats in chat.  Either they'll feel embarassed about their low damage and try harder, or the group will see this continuing and get [Removed for Content], possibly to the point of finding someone new.  When I see someone ninja AFKing, I start posting the parser stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>       On topic, I agree with the OP that berserkers are underappreciated by most people.  Since in this game berserkers are different than what traditional berserkers are, people still have misconceptions.  The best way to change misconceptions is to start your own groups.  If you truly perform better than the tanks your group members have grouped with previously, they'll want to group with you and have you tank often in groups they form.  You'll get more group invites.  Just because you're a berserker though doesn't mean you are automatically great.  You have to be able to play well.  I'd say that 50% of how well you do is the inate ability of your class, but the other 50% is how well you yourself perform.</DIV>

[Foro]

<DIV>I shine as MT or 2nd MT assisting with adds while in damage mode.  As 2nd MT/Damage I saved my group from a few wipeouts yesterday by taking adds off healers or aggroing mobs off MT when things got close all while doing very decent damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furono</DIV> <DIV>33 Berserker - Oggok</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>Apocalypse</SPAN></DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Forono wrote:<DIV>I shine as MT or 2nd MT assisting with adds while in damage mode. As 2nd MT/Damage I saved my group from a few wipeouts yesterday by taking adds off healers or aggroing mobs off MT when things got close all while doing very decent damage.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Furono</DIV><DIV>33 Berserker - Oggok</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>Apocalypse</SPAN></DIV><hr></blockquote>I have been going full tilt with all serk specials flying while as second tank.. me at 29 and the MT a 32 guardian... I have been making him work for his agro control.. might be why he keeps having me tank though.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />To his credit he only lost agro twice onto me our last session, and then only for a moment or two... and I dont go full bore right off the bat.. I start off with normal specials and work up to the full stuff into the fight...

[Ambergr]

<DIV>45 Ranger here - reading with a mixture of amusement and sorrow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a ranger is doing so-so damage it it because the class is awful, no matter how much effort you put in. I use playermade poisons (better than any other), tier 6 arrows (indium) Ykesha and PGT or SBD and hit 200 AGI self buffed. Cedarwood bow etc - so my gear is above average.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With PGT , manastone and robe of Invoker I can afford to burn power at maximum levels over pretty long fights and still have a good amount left.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no way I can outdamage a berserker with any consistency. (note - this isn't such a huge problem up til mid 30s - at that point things start to go awry - anding up horribly by the mid 40s) I can't buff the group at all in combat and I tank like an overripe melon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I'm starting a Berserker instead - people actually seem to enjoy the class, which will be a pleasant novelty.</DIV>