So, please tell me we have a place in a tough raid..

[Larsenex]

<DIV>I was reading a post over on the SK forums. Basically the poster was a lvl 50 SK who said he has no place in a raid and the fact that ALL top end raids are pretty much exclusively tanked by Guardians. With that said, I would like to hear from LVL 50 Zerkers who do go out and raid. Please tell me what place in the raid your guild puts you in. Can you be a good back up MT? Do you ever MT a 50++ ^^^^ x4 ? I enjoy this game but am wondering what my usefullness will be at 'endgame'.  I would like to hear that we are VERY usefull and desired in a tough raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks very much for your time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cacophonix</DIV>

[CreativeBetaHand]

<DIV>Depends.. We have a guardian MT b/c he's one of 2 ppl in our guild with full ebon armor.. and all adept 3 taunts.. My role.. most of the time is add tank.. calling assist for the rest of the mellee's  and even MTing for short stints if I end up with agro or if an MT goes down.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every class is good on a raid.. In an ideal raid I would have 1 person from every subclass.. as then you get the most use from everyones buffs/debuffs.. Rangers have like 8 debuffs.. zerkers can cast group haste and attack buffs.. Guardians give group armor buffs.. paladins help w/ heals and ac buffs for MT.. even healers all get different buffs.. shamans have good poison/disease resists.. while templars/inquis have better MR.. An SK that can hold agro and has as good of equipment as the Guardian should be able to tank a high level mob the same.. Maybe the Guardian is a guild leader and he's not allowed the opportunity.. but who knows.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the people running the raid know your class and know what makes your class good then they will know how to form groups around that.. Sometimes its as simple as telling the leadership what makes you stand out.. so they know how to best use every member of the guild..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2cp.. hope it helped</DIV>

[Diabol]

<DIV>Well, even if we aren't the MT we can augment the other melees in a group quite substantially.   We're quite capable of tanking many a raid, and for the times we don't, well... honestly, who cares?  If you aren't allowed on the raid, you have other issues with your guild.  Just participate and have fun.  What about an extra guardian in a raid?  People are making to big of a deal out of this IMHO.  Fighters of all types lend something useful to a raid - non situational damage.  It doesn't matter much that a brawler does more, or the ton a scout can do when the mobs are lined up right and behaving.  Fighters provide a *consistant* source of good damage and can handle AOEs.  What good are those 12 assassins when vox flipflops and manages to toss her breath behind killing half of them instantly?  Fighters hedge the bet in a way.</DIV>

[Namsin]

Stop listening to whining posts about people who dont think they are uber enough. End result .. play the game and have fun.

[reakshav]

<DIV>No kidding, there are always gonna be alot of extra on raids, just because you dont play a main role doesnt mean your useless.</DIV>

[Styk]

So you feel usefull in a raid how about em group haste/HP/atk buff? thats pretty useful already, add tank is another.... agro tank for helping casters is one more.... berserkers have many many uses in groups and raids besides tank

[Larsenex]

<DIV>Thank you all for the replies!! To the above poster, you are right in that I should stop listening to others and just enjoy the game. I will do jus that!!...=)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Caco</DIV>

[Namsin]

Have fun bro .. and be warry what you read on the boards. People just tend to be negative. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Take care!

[Ixiecoa]

<DIV>as a berserker you should be able to maintank in a raid just as well as a guardian, because berserkers are not awannabe DPS class from EQ1 here but part of the warrior class just as well as guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>berserkers got some more DPS, guardians get better shielding abilities, group defense buffs, some more defensive geareds buff etc but they re both warrior and should MT equally with maybe a slight bonus to guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ideal would be a berserker-guardian combo where the bersi tanks and the guardians shields.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but i said "should" =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>guardians can get 10 defense more than berserkers via self buffs which is 2 levels more of tanking and that makes a difference vs. hard boss mobs so taking a berserker is maybe possible but less effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is it intended that way ? i dont know, we get a buff called controlled rage at lvl 40 which at lvl45 adept 1, according to the description, gives 12 defense in exchange for 20% less attack speed. however even though the skills itself stack, the defense part wont stack with soldiers stance/reckless stance/ unflinching will - so you cannot get more than 12 defense as a berserker just from yourself - while normally if the skills would work you could get 22 defense. i dont have to explain that controlled rage is useless atm unless it gets fixed =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so if our controlled rage would work like the descriptions say i would say a berserker could just RAID tank as well as a guardian IF he has a guardian in his group, benefiting from his group def buff too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i hope they ll fix controlled rage soon then you can have some fun as MT on raids ( on exp groups bersis are good tanks as is ), MTing on raids should not be a guardian monopoly and everyone who thinks so , please go back to EQ 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now of course the shadowknights and paladins might need help to also be viable raid tanks and dunno bout them monks....</DIV>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Ixiecoatl wrote:<DIV>now of course the shadowknights and paladins might need help to also be viable raid tanks and dunno bout them monks....</DIV><hr></blockquote>Pardon the slight threadjack, but:I read somewhere that a truly Uber Tank combo was a lvl 50 Monk as MT with a lvl 50 Guardian using Sentry on the Monk. You get the best of both worlds: the Monk dodges most blows, but of the blows that get through most are passed to the Guardian and then are reduced through the Guardian's mitigation.Of course I am nowhere near such exalted levels and haven't been able to test that myself but it's an intriguing thought.We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ixiecoatl wrote:<BR> <DIV>now of course the shadowknights and paladins might need help to also be viable raid tanks and dunno bout them monks....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Pardon the slight threadjack, but:<BR><BR>I read somewhere that a truly Uber Tank combo was a lvl 50 Monk as MT with a lvl 50 Guardian using Sentry on the Monk. You get the best of both worlds: the Monk dodges most blows, but of the blows that get through most are passed to the Guardian and then are reduced through the Guardian's mitigation.<BR><BR>Of course I am nowhere near such exalted levels and haven't been able to test that myself but it's an intriguing thought.<BR><BR>We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>That doesnt work as well as it use too since the agility fix, the chance a Guardian has to intercept isnt 100% ethier, so you end up having to heal 2 tank's instead of one. It use to work quite well though because lvl 50 monk's had agility threw the roof, but it doesnt work now.</P> <P>Berserker's are great DPS utility in raid's, they should be grouped with Scout class's so they can put there Haste group buff's to full use and then Scout's can put the DPS to full use, we also make a great back up tank in the event the MA goes down and great at snap agro incase add's agro the raid.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>We hold our own in rough raids and no Guardian is better than a Zerker at holding aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just look at Guardian forums and see what skills they use to hold aggro.  Our  AOE taunts, AOE attacks, haste, buffs and good damage overall  beat  any Guardian's capacity to gain hate.  Hell, dont look in forums,  just see it for yourself in game. If i want i can steal hate from a MT Guardian anytime (off course, that is not advisable, MT should be the one taunting).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Off course, there are good and bad Zerkers / Guardians and any tank class played well can play the MT role in any raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been one of my guild's main choices for MT and we do have our share of Guardians.  So far, no complaints.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, whats the big deal in being the MT in a raid?  Everyone plays their part and we shine both as MT or as off-tank.  Our DPS and offensive group buffs help a lot in bringing those mobs down.  What's important is that you have fun in every situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our class permits just that, versatility with quality.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 PM</span>

[RafaelSmith]

Good topic <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I hevenent been on a raid yet in EQ2 so I cant speak to that but it sure does seem that all fighters have enough abilities/utilites that they can contribute on raids beyond being the MT. Its a far cry from EQ1 and Im glad. I played a Warrior in EQ1 and was never the top in my guild so on 80% of the raids I was utterly useless...As Guardian in EQ2 even if im the lowest of the low on a raid I dont feel I will even approach that feeling of uselessness.I think all those other threads whining about tank roles on raids are confusing having a role with having the "staring" role. Its understandable...typical fighter mentality is to always wanna be top dog =P (/points at self)Also it seems to me that people forget the concept of strategy...there have been as many times after tough fight that ive found myself saying..."Wow that would have been alot easier if I was a monk or a zerker, etc" than ive found myself saying..."Wow dont see how anyone else but Guardian could have tanked that". So it seems that choosing who is MT isnt as black and white as it was in EQ1.Like I said i havent experienced raiding or the end game so can only speak to what ive experienced thus far.

[eqaddi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Davish_Darkwolf wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, whats the big deal in being the MT in a raid?  Everyone plays their part and we shine both as MT or as off-tank.  Our DPS and offensive group buffs help a lot in bringing those mobs down.  What's important is that you have fun in every situation.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The big deal is that SOE stated no fighter can tank better than the other. And don't give me the same answer as everyone else about it being situational, a Guardian will be MT over anyone on a raid mob always, that is not situational. Personally I created a Berserker to be a tank and to tank uber stuff. Unless there is no Guardian present we are not able to do that. I know I am not alone here, and this isn't a reply to be all uber as I can be, I just was mislead like so many others on their class descriptions. I love the class to death and will never give it up, I tank the crap out of tuff in regular groups and on semi-boss type named mobs so it's not so bad.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Acually it is situational cause how many raid's do you go on a day compared to normal group's? or solo, or duo?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV>

[eqaddi]

<DIV>Situational as in different tanks will perform better in different situations. Right now Berserkers perform better than no one tanking in any raid situation as far as i can see.</DIV>

[Cozumel]

FWIW, I'm a lvl 39 zerker... I was grouped with lvl 43-46's in CT last night.The 43 guardian actually asked (and I did) me to be the MT because of adds... After that, we literally chain pulled/killed non-stop. I RARELY lost agro, and if did, regained it in 2-3 swings... We have ammmazing agro skills, you just have to know how to use them... I posted a thread a few days ago which explains how...Oh, and for what its worth, we had 2 warlocks in the group, lvl 44's... And they were either chain nuking or feeding mana, I believe in 1 hour, I lost agro 2x to the warlock, only because I was low on mana, and even then, regained the agro in 2-3 hits. MIND you, I'm not using just regular hits, I'm using ones which generate hate, not DPS... See my thread for a better explaination.And yes, we tank JUUUUSSSTT fine. (Though from lvl 32-36 I sucked at tanking compated to guardians... prolly cuz I couldn't afford better armor..dunno) --Coz

[eqaddi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cozumel wrote:<BR>FWIW, I'm a lvl 39 zerker... I was grouped with lvl 43-46's in CT last night.<BR><BR>The 43 guardian actually asked (and I did) me to be the MT because of adds... After that, we literally chain pulled/killed non-stop. <BR><BR>I RARELY lost agro, and if did, regained it in 2-3 swings... We have ammmazing agro skills, you just have to know how to use them... I posted a thread a few days ago which explains how...<BR><BR>Oh, and for what its worth, we had 2 warlocks in the group, lvl 44's... And they were either chain nuking or feeding mana, I believe in 1 hour, I lost agro 2x to the warlock, only because I was low on mana, and even then, regained the agro in 2-3 hits. MIND you, I'm not using just regular hits, I'm using ones which generate hate, not DPS... See my thread for a better explaination.<BR><BR>And yes, we tank JUUUUSSSTT fine. (Though from lvl 32-36 I sucked at tanking compated to guardians... prolly cuz I couldn't afford better armor..dunno)<BR><BR><BR>--Coz<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> The topic of this thread is RAIDING. There is no doubt that we are great in group situations, but it seems the role of a zerker in a raid is to do crappy damage and help other melee do better damage with our melee buffs.

[Sabin the Gre]

<DIV>Well considering I've seen quite a few raid type mobs with lots of little linked add on type [Removed for Content] (i.e. our specialty) I don't think the zerker is "useless."  The buffs we get are insane, and on a raid flip the switch on your level 50 skill and put a serious beatdown on something really fast.  I also think the shielding idea of a zerker + guardian is a good idea, but its going to come down to gear + spells.</DIV>

[Khal]

<DIV>First of all, no matter what some people say on these forums, berserkers still do outstanding dps, very much so in a long raid.  With most of the raids I have seen, It is more then 1 mob, sometimes 4 or more.  The guardian will usually hold the main mob, which is unmezzable.  A good job for the zerker is to be the MA and lead the assist train to kill the adds.  After that they are DPS on the main mob.  Both berserkers and guardians have power dot (no quarter) which is very important on some raids, when used along with the casters power tapping.  </DIV>

[Daran]

I dont quite have those amazing buffs that do AOE haste and such being only at level 24, but I do have one. I forget the name at the moment but if you cast it on someone they get 22% bonus to their avoidance...yeah I'd say thats good to throw on a main tank when Im not tanking.The only problem was having to explain to the healer why when I took over the tanking I was getting hit a lot more.Daryn BourneHalf Elf berserkerLucan D'lere

[CherobylJ]

<DIV>Dunno the biggest thing to remember is that raiding is a team effort.  One person wanting to be the "star" doesnt make for continually successful team.  My experience is with our skill set and the nice interactions-symetries with other classes of course we have a good many role (s).  But even more so the MOST important thing you can bring to a raid is your brain.  That transcends class and using your brain along with your skills productively is what makes raids succeed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Curious: are most folks who ask questions like this perpetually raiding with pickup raids?  It woudl seem to me finding a core group of peeps to raid with frequently would kinda eleminate the question "do I have a role" as you would always have a place?  Also curious why folks are *obssesed* (not so much here on our board thank god) about the main tank role.  Isn't *WINNING* the paramount concern?  I'd let a wizard tank with his cat familiar if it had the best chance of success.</DIV>