Tank classes have been broken, not just zerker!

[snapgor]

<DIV>Last night a 45 healer friend of mine was telling me how this 49 guardian was taking damage like "paper"... I laughed and said, maybe they nerf'd guardians with the recent patch..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then later I grouped with him.. I'm a 48 berserker, I usually dual wield because I barely absorb any damage.. After a few mobs, I quickly realized that wasn't working out. I put on my sheild. That raised my AC to over 7700 (old ac with sheild prior to patch was 4200)... Well that didn't help. My HP was dropping faster than he could heal. We were just doing regular level 48/49 mobs in Everfrost and I've never had such a problem with them before. Though I didn't die once, we had so much downtime because priest had to heal too much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So my concern is the new AC system has reallys crewed up the abilities for tanks to perform.</DIV>

[NoSympathy_FU]

I dont know about higher levels, but right now at lvl 34 my berserker was tanking much of the same it was before the patch. Spent the evening in Rivervale chain tanking yellow / orange Blighted Rats ^^ with a group and my templar friend and everything was fine, did not noticed any change and he did not.After we left Riverval we went to RE and I was chain tanking miners (the Shift Boss group was not easier or tougher than usual) and Evileyes, did not noticed any significant changes there either. The templar power seemed to diminish slowly and consistanly as usual but he never ran out of power or expressed anything about having to heal more than usual.The dps I was doing (parsed) was in the 28-45 for when I was busy throwing the hate on long fights and more along the lines of 50-70 with spikes at 95-110 when I was styling like crazy and fights were easier.All in all everything seemed fine to me last night from a 5 hours of play perspective using a board and axe.Dont mean to say nothing is wrong/not broken, just an observation from my last night playing session.

[Deeds]

<DIV>LOL, I'LL paste my reply to the other posts like this, here again( sorry if you reading this again), because I want this to get addressed:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>This Patch was bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I duo a Berserker and a fury, my brother duos a guardian and inquisitor, we always group.  Let me just say this:  The mobs in EL( the lvl 40 ^^ nightblood demons) that we were doing easily the day before patch, were basically taking us to the limit, and in fact we died a couple of times,  we were BOTH taking A LOT more dmg, and the fights lasted longer because we were either missing more or doing less dmg.  They totally beefed up the monsters stats and made them harder.  That would be fine but if you increase the difficulty of the encounter, please, increase the exp from it. Oh and btw we were using HOs, did not matter, still way harder then pre-patch fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The agility buff that my fury gives seems to have no effect now at all, thats fine, we wear plate. I feel this will probably affect the bruisers and monks even more then us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it kinda funny, last week they were giving us the more solo and small group friendly EQ2 by giving us more exp on the kills, that lasted about a week, since now  the same mobs that we were killin pre-patch take us 3 times longer to kill with more downtime healing and regening power, so in the end its about the same amount of time to lvl as before the exp bonus to small groups.  Why bother.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So no tanks are not over powered, we are taking more damage then pre-patch.  Like I said beofre, I duo a fury, and that who is really fealing the strain now.  The healers are the ones who will have to keep up with the extra damage thats is dealt by the beefed up mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Braxus 39 berserker</DIV> <DIV>Sophilia 39 fury</DIV></DIV>

[Demar]

<DIV>They didn't change anything about AC. The only thing they changed was the number that you see, to give a better idea of dmg mitigation/avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HOWEVER, they did lower the impact of agility.</DIV>

[snapgor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demar55 wrote:<BR> <DIV>They didn't change anything about AC. The only thing they changed was the number that you see, to give a better idea of dmg mitigation/avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HOWEVER, they did lower the impact of agility.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>How do you know this is completely true? Maybe it was an unintential change that resulted from changing the way AC is displayed. </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>If what you say was true, I wouldn't see the difference that I described in this thread. Other users wouldn't have complained about the same issue either.</FONT></DIV>

[Thyr]

<DIV>I'll second this thought..monks/bruisers/brawlers got hosed by this patch.  With the agility nerf I get hit nearly as often as a plate tank for 2x the damage or more.  And I have less hp to boot.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They need to look at this..and maybe next time leave a patch on test server for more then 6 days before pushing it live and making people miserable.</DIV>

[Maccus]

You all know they also beefed up lvl 30+ mobs in the patch as well, so they will deal more damage and take more.

[Deeds]

<DIV>Yes Maccus, I stated that in my post.  The question is, did they buff up the mobs too much?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Braxus 39 berserker</DIV> <DIV>Sophilia 39 fury</DIV>

[NoSympathy_FU]

<blockquote><hr>Deedbit wrote:<DIV>Yes Maccus, I stated that in my post. The question is, did they buff up the mobs too much?</div><DIV> </div><DIV> </div><DIV>Braxus 39 berserker</div><DIV>Sophilia 39 fury</div><hr></blockquote>There is no clear answer for that I think, we will have to adapt and change strategies again. What worked before, the mob we used to tank, the armor we used to have, the buff we used to cast all that need us to reevaluate it.And there is also a matter of taste to consider too in the answer. Obviously we wont all agree on the topic but for myself as long I dont die on each and every attempt to kill a mob suited to my level, I am sure in for a bit more challenge in this area. Since the realease of the game a couple of patches changed the damages and hit points of the mob and to my taste its welcomed. In the early days (if I can say so) of the release I did not really feel like my characters life was in danger when adventuring. Most of the death I experienced were mostly 'yet another stupid death'. Or to put it like my fellow battlepriest like to say: 'If we win it was easy... If we die someone made a mistake'.So to answer the question 'did they buff up the mob too much?' I guess since I havent seen all Norrath adventurers waiting in line at the unemployment office, because they cant kill mob now, my last words on that matter will be that only time will tell.

[Deeds]

<DIV>Nosympathy, your answer was so vague, that it basically answered nothing.  From what I gather, you do not mind that you will have a bigger lvling grind, and that you will not be able to do  mobs, encounters and zones that you could pre-patch (meaning ,all else being equal) untill you reach a higher lvl. Ok, I do mind, but thats just me.  Also, if they wanted us to slow down our lvling and make stuff harder in general, what was the whole thing about eq2 being more solo and small grp friendly last week??? I dont get it.  Please I would love to see a Dev come on and give some kind of reasonable expanation of this new system, any information would help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Braxus 39 berserker</DIV> <DIV>Sophilia 39 fury</DIV>

[VonStein]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demar55 wrote:<BR> <DIV>They didn't change anything about AC. The only thing they changed was the number that you see, to give a better idea of dmg mitigation/avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HOWEVER, they did lower the impact of agility.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>LOL.... wow.... I didn't change anything about AC, just how Agility affects your AC..... </P> <P> </P> <P>Im in the process of building a Half Elf high agility Berserker.... guess its pretty much a wast of time now.....</P> <P>20 Barb Guard.... AC 2200... non buffed.... sheild adding 220 AC....</P> <P>20 Half elfy Zerker.... with 15 points higher agil.... same armor just less the sheild??? 1865 AC.... </P> <P> </P> <P>OK.... 345 AC difference.... minus the 220 AC sheild.... is 125 AC less with a 15 point HIGHER Agil???</P> <P>BRILLIANT!!!!</P>

[Don`Letrea]

<DIV>I play as an enchanter in a permanent group and I was just checking out the warrior forums to see about the recent changes.  I've got to agree that they've made some type of change, either on purpose or inadvertenly.  Our main tank in our group is a 26 beserker, with a 26 cleric, a 22 conjurer and myself, a 28 enchanter.  We've also got a 28 guardian, but they've been Awol for the last week so I can't say how it affected him.  Anyways, long story short, we've been taking verterans in TS for the last few days and prior to the patch everything has been running prettly smoothly.  After the patch, we went back to try to finish the quest we're on and started taking veterans.  We all use teamspeak and during the very first mob the cleric starts asking the tank if she is using different abilites or HOs.  She says no and the cleric gets her to switch over to a shield to get some added AC.  Mind you, I'm watching her health bar and realize that things aren't going smoothly and switch from doing more damge to getting every stun and stifle to land that I can.  The conjurer is doing the same with his stun and really starts pouring out the damage to kill the veteran quickly.  So we take it down, and go ahead and pull another, since the levels do vary slightly on some mobs and I didn't check the mob level during the fight to see its level.  Strange thing was, every mob, we pulled was just as hard.  We checked with the tank and most mobs were either blue or white but were just beating the crap out of her.  After we finished for the night, the cleric said it was everything he could do to keep the tank vertical as he was using every vitae he had.  Prior to this he said he was only putting one vitae on her but that night he was running all three constantly.  I can only imagine a group without an enchanter must be having alot of downtime as I kept breeze running on the cleric the whole time and we all use tier 3 foods.  I hope whatever was changed will be at least be modified.  I can't imagine with our buffs we are even pushing a huge increase on agility even though whatever happened seems to have dramatically changed the mob encounters.  From one concerned enchanter, I hope the warrior community will continue to pursue this until something is resolved.</DIV>

[Degas]

I was telling some guildies last night: I don't mind all that much if they want to increase the risks of adventuring. I just want them to increase the rewards accordingly. I like a challenge. If mobs have higher hitpoints, and hit more often due to AGI changes, then defeating them should yield increased XP.Of course, that's the whole purpose of the changes...to slow people down in gaining levels. OK, fine, then don't pump up the XP. Instead, pump up the loot tables. Whatever, do SOMETHING to make this change acceptable to the players. This ain't prison, and we ain't your girlfriend <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[NoSympathy_FU]

I got to agree they may be have gone a bit overboard with the high con named mobs.Maybe it wasent planned we could defeat Orange Con Named ^^ mob (The Brewmaster in RE comes to mind) with ease like before. But he seems to be much tougher now and he defenitly hits hard. The Shift Boss ^^ Yellow con to our group was an okay fight yesterday. And Insurgent White con ^^ did not pose any real threat. Like I stated previously with guildmate templar and solid group of friends I have no problem chain tanking Yellow ^^ / Orange ^^ Generic mobs.The Monk case is another issue tho and a sad one I must admit. I dont have any answer becaue I dont know the class well enough, but I think something should be done to restore some of their tanking habilities.

[Super Du]

<DIV>Wheeee, yet another waa waa post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Changes made game more fun!  call your therapist if you have an urge to express your self.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HAR HAR HAR</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Super Du wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wheeee, yet another waa waa post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Changes made game more fun!  call your therapist if you have an urge to express your self.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HAR HAR HAR</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Super Du, you are one of the biggest board trolls i have ever meet in my gaming history. I despize people like you with a capital D. Here the troll is at his known best :</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=7150" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=7150</A></P> <P>On a side note, i do think that Agility was way over powered in the game and more so for monks even, why? Cause not only did they get a built in shield which gave them a even higher chance at a succesful block, but they could dodge like no other class in the game and do very very decent DPS. Reason i think this is wrong because every other tank class has to sacrafice a little something in return to tank, Berserkers sacrafice defense, Guardians sacrafice offense, im pretty sure monks could of sacraficed the use of a shield when there Block ability was higher then a Berserker or Guardian using a 600 shield factor sheild even with out one equipped. Maybe another way at looking at Monks is to take away there built in shields and replace there agility to the way it was, but when you think about it from another angle, thats exactally where they are now, but instead of dodging more, they will be blocking more. So now it will just put those built in shields to work more often :smileywink:.</P> <P>I personally like the change and think that a extra bit of challenege is what we needed when fighting named mobs, i havent noticed no difference normal mob's wise like Odenn stated also, one thing i have noticed is named mobs arent burning there power as fast as they used to thats for sure and there using more specials per combat round also making the battle that more intense.</P> <P>Most of us posted on the boards that Agility was way over powered, and that it would eventually get " adjusted ".</P> <P>Moorgard clearly stated that there will be more " adjustments " to come, and here we see SoE doing what they know best, making people adjust to the way they want there game played.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 37th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Co-Leader of Justice Bringers<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>02-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:18 AM</span>

[kel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NoSympathy_FUTA wrote:<BR>I got to agree they may be have gone a bit overboard with the high con named mobs.<BR><BR>Maybe it wasent planned we could defeat Orange Con Named ^^ mob (The Brewmaster in RE comes to mind) with ease like before. But he seems to be much tougher now and he defenitly hits hard. The Shift Boss ^^ Yellow con to our group was an okay fight yesterday. And Insurgent White con ^^ did not pose any real threat. <BR><BR>Like I stated previously with guildmate templar and solid group of friends I have no problem chain tanking Yellow ^^ / Orange ^^ Generic mobs.<BR><BR>The Monk case is another issue tho and a sad one I must admit. I dont have any answer becaue I dont know the class well enough, but I think something should be done to restore some of their tanking habilities.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What odenn says is true!!! all that is needed is a good worked togehter group... /miagia<BR>

[Wolfherz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I personally like the change and think that a extra bit of challenege is what we needed when fighting named mobs, i havent noticed no difference normal mob's wise like Odenn stated also, one thing i have noticed is named mobs arent burning there power as fast as they used to thats for sure and there using more specials per combat round also making the battle that more intense.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Amen ! Exactly how I felt.

[RafaelSmith]

<blockquote><hr>Wolfherz wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>-Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR><P>I personally like the change and think that a extra bit of challenege is what we needed when fighting named mobs, i havent noticed no difference normal mob's wise like Odenn stated also, one thing i have noticed is named mobs arent burning there power as fast as they used to thats for sure and there using more specials per combat round also making the battle that more intense.</P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Amen ! Exactly how I felt.<hr></blockquote>I also agree. I don't think Tank classes have been nerfed... Challenging mobs actually seem somewhat challenging now after the patch.. Normal, everyday, exp grind mobs are pretty much the same they always were and I really can't notice any difference in my ability to tank them or my usual healer to keep me alive. They might hit me a little more often (i.e AGI FIX) but then again most mobs missed me too much IMHO before the patch. Also SOLO mobs are still very much SOLABLE so no complaints there.Everything for me at lvl 31 seems to be just about right in terms of difficulty and challenge from a tank perspective. If anything Taunt/Hate abilities need some tuning but nothing that cant be worked around with some skill.

[Zerofault]

<DIV>I'm a lvl 41 zerker and I haven't noticed any difference at all... in fact I can tank better... One thing I did notice , non - related, was you can actually get xp killing grey mobs as long as you have someone in your group that the mob cons green or higher for...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz - Nek</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zerofault wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm a lvl 41 zerker and I haven't noticed any difference at all... in fact I can tank better... One thing I did notice , non - related, was you can actually get xp killing grey mobs as long as you have someone in your group that the mob cons green or higher for...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz - Nek</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Hmmm thats strange cause we were camping the mobs in RoV last night for Immortality access, the 3 caster's, Summoner, Chanter and Wizard and all the mobs were green to us, we called down some higher level friends who also needed it and the mobs greyed out plus no XP, once a person in the group joins and the mobs are normally grey to them but a colour to you other then grey, they become greyed out, you probally know this being level 41, i even helped some low level people in my guild do a quick corpse run in TS today cause they were all lvl 27-29 and didnt want to bugger around killing to the crater and i was camping Stiletto, so they invited me and every thing greyed out for them.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 36th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Co-Leader of Justice Bringers<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[NoSympathy_FU]

<blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Zerofault wrote:<DIV>I'm a lvl 41 zerker and I haven't noticed any difference at all... in fact I can tank better... One thing I did notice , non - related, was you can actually get xp killing grey mobs as long as you have someone in your group that the mob cons green or higher for...</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Lodoz - Nek</div><HR></blockquote><DIV></div><P>Hmmm thats strange cause we were camping the mobs in RoV last night for Immortality access, the 3 caster's, Summoner, Chanter and Wizard and all the mobs were green to us, we called down some higher level friends who also needed it and the mobs greyed out plus no XP, once a person in the group joins and the mobs are normally grey to them but a colour to you other then grey, they become greyed out, you probally know this being level 41, i even helped some low level people in my guild do a quick corpse run in TS today cause they were all lvl 27-29 and didnt want to bugger around killing to the crater and i was camping Stiletto, so they invited me and every thing greyed out for them.</p><P>Taemek Frozenberg 36th Berserker16th OutfitterCo-Leader of Justice BringersEverfrost ServerEnlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )70th Stone Fist of The Celestial FistFive Rings on Luclin Server</p><hr></blockquote>I did not checked for XP but experienced the same in Runnyeye last night. A mob would con Green to me but was Grayed out for someone else higher level in our group. The mob who was outlined red would not aggro him but would aggro on me if I remember well. Would like to get confirmation on that tho, I am not sure, if someone else experienced the same thing. Thanks...../bonk Miagia...<p>Message Edited by NoSympathy_FUTA on <span class=date_text>02-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:21 AM</span>

[NoSympathy_FU]

I guess this one answer a couple questions I had and some other may have. Still not a word on XP gain about if a mob is gray solo to you and green when you join a group lower level than you. My bet is probably not much gain if any, I will have to check it out this evening.*** Grouping and the Con System *** - Higher level group members will no longer take a disproportionately large share of group experience splits. Previously, when one or two group members were higher level than the group's average, they gained a much larger share of the XP than they were supposed to.- The blue/green range has been expanded for groups whose members are not all the same level. Depending on your group's level range, even in groups as small as two, you now have more targets to choose from. Some encounters that were grey will now be green or even blue.- Since encounter con is based on the group's level, it is conceivable that an encounter may be grey to a player while solo, but turn green when they join a group with an average level that is lower than their own.- The blue/green range for players in their low 20s is now significantly larger, allowing them to hunt in some of their favorite spots for longer. ===========================MoorgardEverQuest II Community Guy Rest of the thread can be foud <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=66#M66" target=_blank>HERE.</a>

[Zerofault]

<DIV>Ok, heres what I was hunting, Briarpaws in EL, at lvl 41 they were grey to me, i had a lvl 35 coercer with me, we were killing them, i as getting .5% per kill... i know I did, i'm not asking for confirmation, i was telling others</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV>

[Elgusa]

I did not focus on agi like many other tanks did, and honestly at 35 I see very little difference in my tanking after this patch. However a few scouts, bruisers, and monks I know all got the shaft on this patch. Where before nothing could touch them, (They all have insane AGI compared to me), they are getting taken out back and beat on with a garden hose.My strategy all along has been HPS(STA)+AC/Defense, and put AGI second. Guess the old EQ1 tactic just paid off. Go figure.