Berserker vs. Guardian: Questions, Class Distinctions, etc.

[Marlow]

<DIV> <DIV>Hey all--</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm currently playing a broken class, a 27 Warlock, but I've started a tank, and he's currently a 13 Warrior.  I figure if all else fails, everyone always needs a meatshield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhow, I'm writing in for some advice, some observations, and some general thoughts on this.  I think its pretty safe to say that in an MT situation, a good amount of people in game would think "Guardian, Pally, SK for my MT!".  The fact of the matter is that SOE states that all tank classes, whether you're a Monk or a Bruiser, a Berserker or a Guardian, SK or Pally, can tank equally well, and that the difference resides in damage mitigation styles.  I've been keeping an eye on this forum, and a bit on the Guardian forum as of late to try and help me along with my up and coming Subclass choice.  I like the idea of being able to deal larger amounts of damage(a contentious point lately here, I realize), but still be able to tank efficiently, and leave opportunity for a Main Tanking option on guild raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now let me preface this next section with this statement:  I know the tempation will be to say "Guardians are defensive, take a lot of damage, Berserkers are offensive, deal damage, but they're both tanks and can tank.  Play whichever suits your style."  Honestly, I've read that, I've heard it.  I'm just looking for the words direct from the horses mouth so to speak.  What do you love about your class?  Can you tank well?  Does it sacrifice a huge amount of damage for you to do so?  Do you get picked over another tank class(heh not going to go through that crap again with another class, its painful enough having to shelf my Warlock) frequently?  What's the potential for future nerfs?  What's the largest source of your damage(combat arts vs. melee damage)?  If its melee damage, is it crippling to the class to equip a shield?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks anyone who takes the time to respond <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV></DIV>

[Diabol]

<DIV>If you care about being a raid MT, go guardian, period.  Berserkers are a little more diverse, and do tank just fine but just don't take the damage as well even with the shield out.   If they fix some of the guardian skills such that a couple guardians could properly guard a berserker then the raid configuration might at times be 'guarded berserker' MT for aggro management reasons.  If like to solo occasionally, and want to be a more flexible off-tank then berserker might be better for you.   We're fun in the midst of multi-mob pulls too, as long as there's not chanter there trying ot make us color inside the lines.</DIV>

[YellowSpi]

It's all about what you want to do. Both are good classes. I'm having a blast playing a zerker. I played a warrior in a high end raiding guild for 5 years in EQ1. I love to tank, but wanted something a little different. I haven't regreted being a berserker. I hold my own just fine compared to guardians I have been grouped with and observered. I think we will still see some minor tweeking, but overall I am enjoying the class.I can't comment on the group thing. I never have trouble finding a group. I'm pretty proactive and majority of the time I lead groups/organize them.

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>Many times im picked to be the main tank. Of course, if a higher level guardian/pally/sk   joins the group, people tend to prefer the higher level toon (more hps, ac, etc).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding balance, i think Guardian might have the defensive edge, but the 4 classes tank pretty much equally well. I think it all</DIV> <DIV>depends on the person behind the character, i have seen terrible guardians and awsome ones, good pallies and terrible ones, if the person plays his character well, i cant pretty much say that all tanks in EQ2 can tank well enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i would start from the beginning, i would pick the Berserker class again, i have been the pure meat-shield style in other games and wanted to be a bit different.... and i am.  I might not do the damage of a monk or wizard, but i sure deliver good amounts of damage while at the same time being able to mitigate as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are tanks first, damage dealers second, just dont forget that. Many people in this forums seem to neglect what our base is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Marlow]

<DIV>Thanks for the posts, all.  I posted something similar in the guardian forums, and the reply I got was "how is your class broken, we have a 30 warlock in our guild who does just fine" ::rolleyes::</DIV>

[Hoe]

I love my damage skills. I like pushing a button and know that in a few seconds the mob's hitpoints are going to go flying down. I assume with guard it's more like push a button and any second your hitpoints will stay the same. That's boring. I can stand up there and take all the hits for my group, do my best to buff myself up so I take as little damage as necessary, then I can beat the living crap out of the MOB. I love doing damage to 4 MOBs at the same time. They're all hitting me, why should I hit them all back. I love when some idiot in my group does something stupid on a pull and gets aggro and just before they get hit I get it back, and the MOB goes flying straight past everyone else to me only to get punched in the face with my maul. I love my berserker.

[Darkd]

<DIV>IMO it is all how you play your toon.  Last night grouped with a higher level Pally and he couldnt keep aggro to save his life so I ended up MT and the only time we died was when the stoner healer didnt pay attention and I died.  Now I also group with a Guard that is a very good MT.  I find the Zerker more fun and has a much easier time keeping aggro.  Guards seem kind of boring and have to work hard to keep aggro on group mobs.  SK seem like fun as well but I have yet to see an SK do a very good job at tanking.  Pallys, only grouped with a few and ended up taking over tanking duties.  In all these cases I really feel that it is not so much the class but the skill of the individual behind the toon.  I say stick with your Warlock.</DIV>

[Jher]

<DIV>I wouldn't hold too much on what has been said in the past - At one time or another, Moorgard has said each of the following things:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=postbody><FONT size=1>Moorgard:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=postbody><FONT size=1>Scouts are also about movement. They're the ones who can guide you through dangerous dungeons--and, perhaps more importantly, they're the ones who get you out again.<BR><BR>In terms of combat, they have opening moves that can give your party an advantage over your opponents, as well as attacks of opportunity in the fight. But in our game, fighters do greater overall melee damage.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=postbody></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <P>But the general consensus now is that Scout is the primary melee DPS archetype.</P> <P> </P> <P>Another comparison:</P> <P></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P><FONT size=1>Moorgard:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>All Fighters can do the job of tank equally well. Our entire system is designed around the idea that anyone from a given archetype can fill their main role as well as any other.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>However, it has since been hinted otherwise - another quote:</P> <P></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>Moorgard:</P> <P>Berserkers should do a bit more damage than a guardian, since they do not tank quite as well as the guardian.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Try out a class for a while, and see if you like it or not. Don't get too hung up about what has or has not been said, because chances are - its either wrong, or will change.</P> <P> </P>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marlow wrote: <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now let me preface this next section with this statement:  I know the tempation will be to say "Guardians are defensive, take a lot of damage, Berserkers are offensive, deal damage, but they're both tanks and can tank.  Play whichever suits your style."  Honestly, I've read that, I've heard it.  I'm just looking for the words direct from the horses mouth so to speak.  What do you love about your class?  Can you tank well?  Does it sacrifice a huge amount of damage for you to do so?  Do you get picked over another tank class(heh not going to go through that crap again with another class, its painful enough having to shelf my Warlock) frequently?  What's the potential for future nerfs?  What's the largest source of your damage(combat arts vs. melee damage)?  If its melee damage, is it crippling to the class to equip a shield?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks anyone who takes the time to respond <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have a question for you to ask yourself.  Are you a good leader?  Do you enjoying leading a party around?</P> <P>The MT is the leader 99% of the time.  People expect you to pull and keep them out of trouble.  That's your job for the most part, and the most important part of a MT.  When in XP groups, your AC, your class and what not, might make small differences here and there, but the key ingrediant to a tanks success is their leadership qualities.  For the most part, the MT makes or breaks a group.</P> <P>I see it far too often with my different alts, so many tanks just don't do their job, and some do.  I really could careless about the MT's class or AC (to a point), all I care about is having a tank who can get the job done at a good pace and not camp one spot because he's afraid to explore.</P> <P>As far as why I like my zerker...I like him because he's flexible.  I can be a defensive tank, and dishout some damage when I want.  I love to use AE styles.  I love blood rage and Fury is quite nice too.  We are plate tanks with a thirst for blood.  </P> <P>On the 50+ Raid scene, you will find that you won't be the MT.  You will be good DPS however.  All fighters top the damage department against raid mobs (at least until some balancing is done).</P> <P><STRONG>"Do you get picked over another tank class(heh not going to go through that crap again with another class, its painful enough having to shelf my Warlock) frequently?"</STRONG></P> <P>I've found that as a MT, it's extremely easy to create yourown groups.  You are the key component of any group.  Just find a healer and just about anything else will fit.  I don't believe I've ever looked for a group with LFG, but I have had plenty of people ask if I was making one.  MT's generally aren't sought after for working groups because they usually already have a tank.  Tanks usually start groups at least it's far and away the easiest solutions and generally results in the best groups (find a healer and then I look for a bard, get a 2nd healer or enchanter and fill out with DPS).  If you put the group together, people also have a tendancy to follow you with little resistance, meaning you can do the hunting spots you like.  I personally hate camping 1 spot, and so many think it's the easiest xp.  If I make the group, most people never complain (most thoroughly enjoy the change of pace, even though they would have been the same people to ask to stay put if you joined one).<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>01-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:22 AM</span>

[CherobylJ]

<DIV>Bers tends to have a little more flexibility than Guards.  You can solo, play dps or MT as needed.  You also have some limited ability to buff your group.  Because of this flexibility I find it more fun to play than the classic EQ1 style warr (former level 70 with lottsa aaxp yada yada).  I honestly cant comment on how good Guards are vs Bers tanking "raid" class targets, but there are alotta posts on both Bers/guard boards stating Guards do have a better selection of skills for raid MT duty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you would be happy with either class, both are fun to play and have pretty decent roles in any group.  </DIV>

[reakshav]

<DIV>I'm a 27 Zerker, and still enjoying the class.  We make very decent tanks. But there are still some misconceptions out there.  I was in this group with a 26 SK, and he told me he wanted to tank and said that serkers where not made to tank and where dps only.  My AC fully buffed is 2100, and HPs is 2200.  This SK had 1600hp and 1400ac and he wanted to tank go figure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[naczeln]

<blockquote><hr>reakshavoc wrote:<DIV>I'm a 27 Zerker, and still enjoying the class.  We make very decent tanks. But there are still some misconceptions out there.  I was in this group with a 26 SK, and he told me he wanted to tank and said that serkers where not made to tank and where dps only.  My AC fully buffed is 2100, and HPs is 2200.  This SK had 1600hp and 1400ac and he wanted to tank go figure.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>--------------------------Well..this is ignorance in its purest form.Just one ward -Shadowknight's Demonstration of Faith -casted repeatedly - can prevent more damage than ALL your starting hitpoints.Making statements without any knowledge on other classes' assets is tricky...

[reakshav]

<DIV>Well I let the guy tank some goliaths in TS and the healers where going LOP real fast-- my point was not that SK's cant tank but the SK saying the beserker class was not made for tanking.  I also let him pull once since he said he could pull faster since he ahd a horse and we ended up wiping bad.  He told me out right that berserkers are a dps class and not meant to tank.  and yes I do admit I'm ignorant of the SK class.</DIV>

[Fing]

<DIV>well I just hit lvl 20 berserker last night on my alt and I'm digin it. I can solo lvl 19 ^^ with no problem.  Tried a few lvl 20 white ^^ but was never able to kill them. Came pretty close. So far I have no complaints about the class. Compared to my caster this class is a much needed change. Oh and I have a lvl 34 warlock wouldn't say it's broker the dps is great it's just not a class made for solo'n</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fingaz on <span class=date_text>01-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 PM</span>

[naczeln]

<blockquote><hr>reakshavoc wrote:<DIV>Well I let the guy tank some goliaths in TS and the healers where going LOP real fast-- my point was not that SK's cant tank but the SK saying the beserker class was not made for tanking.  I also let him pull once since he said he could pull faster since he ahd a horse and we ended up wiping bad.  He told me out right that berserkers are a dps class and not meant to tank.  and yes I do admit I'm ignorant of the SK class.</DIV><hr></blockquote>-------------------------------------He was not ignorant. He was just stupid.Of course berserkers ARE tanks.And concerning horse...yes it helps in far pulls against dangerous enemies - you can get to your healer faster <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jher]

<blockquote><hr>naczelnyk wrote:<blockquote><hr>reakshavoc wrote:<DIV>I'm a 27 Zerker, and still enjoying the class.  We make very decent tanks. But there are still some misconceptions out there.  I was in this group with a 26 SK, and he told me he wanted to tank and said that serkers where not made to tank and where dps only.  My AC fully buffed is 2100, and HPs is 2200.  This SK had 1600hp and 1400ac and he wanted to tank go figure.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>--------------------------Well..this is ignorance in its purest form.Just one ward -Shadowknight's Demonstration of Faith -casted repeatedly - can prevent more damage than ALL your starting hitpoints.Making statements without any knowledge on other classes' assets is tricky...<hr></blockquote>Hey, ignorance is a double edged sword... watch it doesn't come back and bite you on the [FaarNerfed!] <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />In this situation, the decision on who should tank has -jack- all to do with class difference. Both are heavy armour fighters, and the only reason for such a disparity in AC is bad equipment. Sure, SK wards can mitigate a lot of damage over the course of a fight. So can an extra 700 AC.I group fairly often with a guildie SK, and I know he can tank... The thing is, he keeps his equipment up to par, and has comparable AC.

[reakshav]

<DIV>So taking player Skill out of the equation- does and SK with the same gear make a better tank then a zerker with the same gear?  Will they mitigate less damage?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gammar]

I think the answer to that is with all gear/skill/ being equal the two classes should be equal. If they aren't, one will be hit with the nerf bat until it is equal with other.

[reakshav]

<DIV>fair enough</DIV>

[atjtennis]

<DIV>As a LvL 36 Zerker I can say I truly love my class.  I'mm 99% of hte time the mT in the group I am doing and I have never had a problem finding a group.  I've never had a group complain about my tankinga bility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to repeat what others have said I do so love our AE attacks, and our group buffs.  THey are great and as far as damage lost using a shiled yeah you lose a bit of the dmage you can deal but we have several abilites that require a shield which are nice for a MT.</DIV>

[Micbat]

My take:-I usually yield to gaurdian is MT, depending on his gear. But I still pull his aggro [oops sorry].-I do great damage, usually highest in my group except if we have a mezzer then I can't ae and blood rage.-Healers sometimes like me and sometimes don't. This depends on the level of the encounter.-Fun to play. My feeling is if I can tank and do decent damage, well then that is the class for me even though I might not be the MOST ideal main tank. I can still get the job done, might not be as pretty but the mob(s) is dead and my group is alive.-Barbarian Chics have the biggest tata's in game! woot! I will pwn j00 with my missiles.

[Belce]

<DIV>Good post Padien.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>respect</DIV>

[Krullg]

26 Zerker here and every group I have ever been in, I am the MT.and my outlook is this: 1. Manage Aggro 2. Keep the group safe from adds3. Buffs 4. Orienting mobs so people dont take frontal AOE and back attackers can get at mobs5.6.7.8.9.....100. Damage outputUsually we try for 2 healers(Inquis MH, Defiler SH), 3 DPS (preferably 2 sassy and 1 caster) and me (MT)I leave damage to the DPS, healing to healers, protection is my job, not damage. I don't really agree with SOE's model of a berserker at all but hey.. im into a 26 zerker now so no point in crying over spilled milk, Hence the reason a made a Sassy - they are more in line with zerker roles in other games IMO (highest Melee DPS and medium armor)

[PacO]

<DIV>From my experience, I can't see how peopl can say that zerks make bad tanks.  Contrary to people's misunderstanding, zerkers can hold agro, take hits and raise their AC camaparable to Guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are more prone to wield 2h weapons or DW, plus, we have lots of damage output and significant AEs.  People seem to think we are more of a DPS than a MT.  But as some seasoned zerkers have mentioned before, zerkers can be plays more diversely than other tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With a shield, they can serve as a tank, and with rage and 2h or DW weapons, they can serve as DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been both and I tell you.  If you play your class well, you will turn a lot of peoples opinion about the zerkers.</DIV>

[Styk]

Krullgan said " i leave damage to the dps " no offense friend , you should have been a guard then with that mentality.... If you have good healing on your team..... use blood rage anyways when tanking and hit those AE's and let the "bodies hit the floor"