Interesting Observation... AC isn't what prevents Zerker Damage...

[Cozumel]

I did a test the other day...^^Yellow/^^Orange Clay Guardians in RoVBase AC: 1500Level: 30Base AGI: 701H Weapon + Shield (405 AC) + Buffs + Havoc + Battle Tactics = 2200ACDamage Range Taken: 180 -> 6062H Weapons (With +4 AGI each) + Buffs + Havoc + Battle Tactics = ~1850 ACDamage Range Taken: 88 -> 240 Did this for HOURS while grouped with a 30-35 lvl group just goofin off in RoV for loot and a little XP.Bottom line, is AGI (as stated by the Monks) is not only overpowered, but its what is determining that damage Zerkers are taking.I've since upgraded my gear for the max AGI possible, and I'm taking NOTICIBLY less damage! -- Coz

[Cozumel]

Correction, Base AC was 68, with DW weapons it was 78. -- Coz

[Diabol]

<DIV>it's really hard to imagine 10 agi making that much difference.  Something is majorly messed up if that is the case.</DIV>

[Tyr'f]

<DIV>thats why my wood elf berzerker rocks :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Padi]

<DIV>That's why gnome zerkers rock <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[sceptre155]

<DIV>10 agi for 50% less damage ?</DIV> <DIV>That would be crazy,  I have noticed that AC makes close no diffrence at all, but I hadn't realized that agi makes that big a diffrence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[LumpyD]

<DIV>I took AGI for every single stat trait, and I have a lot of agility based gear. It's the only thing that saves me ATM. Base AGI is 110. 150 seems to be a BIG cutoff point where it makes a huge difference. That has been my personal observation. I don't remember if it is a Warden or Fury that gets the agility buff, but them + a troubador has my agility at 190ish, and I was blocking, parrying, and just plain being missed a LOT. </DIV>

[sceptre155]

<DIV>interesting post in the Combat and Encounter forum</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=21529" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=21529</A></DIV>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sceptre155 wrote:<BR> <DIV>10 agi for 50% less damage ?</DIV> <DIV>That would be crazy,  I have noticed that AC makes close no diffrence at all, but I hadn't realized that agi makes that big a diffrence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Where do you get 50% less damage from?

[sceptre155]

<DIV>from the damage range from the original post.</DIV> <DIV>240 vs 608</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not exactly 50% jsut a rough estimate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Padi]

<DIV>I was looking at the post wrong.  Thought you meant you dropped your damage output by 50%.</DIV>

[Elgusa]

I am going to have to test this....Your saying you got hit for less (not hit less) with more AGI? That it improved your mitigation?From what I am gleaning from agi, or atleast what my rough looks are that with higher AGI, I get do get hit much much less, however I do notice that with higher AC I get hit for less.Thats why all these tests have been done with 2 X dual/2 hander vs. Shield+ 1hander for actual damage taken. But yes it does make sense that you would want to have higher AGI as a tank.However maybe I am in the old EQ1 mold, but I have concentrated on STA+AC. So far that strategy seems to be paying off well, as I am a requested tank by a few groups which regularly get together.Also, I am 32. Might be different at higher levels. Any power gamers, or 45+ zerkers want to chime in and give us some pointer to their success?Prosecution32 Zerker of Permafrost27 Hey I make armor too!

[reakshav]

<DIV>I've been observing that when I use DW, i take less damage, I was wonder if this is cause im parry more?  This is not based on any data, just on observations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[sceptre155]

<DIV>It's been posted that you take more damage when you DW, because of ripostes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[orchidslyr]

<DIV>DId anyone ever think AC prevented damage?  Just to make sure you understand, it mitigates damage so that you take less damage (basically damage absorbtion), but it in no ways "prevents damage".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only damage prevention mechanism is Avoidance, via parry, block, dodge or just plain missing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now of course agility is going to make you better at Avoidance...and it is no secret that scout classes have inheritly higher agility.   So whats the problem?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just on a side note, if that Scout DOES get hit...hes gonna get alot harder then a tank will.</DIV>

[sceptre155]

<DIV>I've always thought the AC would lower the amount of damage when hit.  But, from what I've seen in the game it doesnt. Everyone gets hit for the same amount basically, its the amount of times you get hit that varies. based on class, lvl vs mob and X   X ='s stuff I have no idea about <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Oh and dont forget a shield, And any shield works just as good as the next. It's the added block modifiers that help.  Now diffrent shield types do modify the block %.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try it yourselves... solo a few mobs, then run around naked with only a shield and solo a few more.  You're gonna be suprise as to how little diffrence it makes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry if the post sounded alittle backwards, trying to do to many things at once.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by sceptre155 on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 PM</span>

[LumpyD]

<DIV>Well I don't know what peoples "thoughts" are on AC. Some seem to think it actually helps in damaghe mitigation, which I don't 100% agree with. I think AC can help mitigate, but very minimally. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example: Adding 200AC equated to me being hit for about 10 less damage on a 1200 damage style from an even con mob. (which easily could have been standard variance....)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I do notice is.. when using say a shield.. besides blocking more, I tend to get more "The mob tries to do whatever to you, but misses!" messages. Why is this? I think AC has everything to do with whether or not a mob just straight misses you, but not how much damage the mob will do when it actually connects. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think mitigation has everything to do with the type of armor being worn. Honestly, I don't know that having 4500AC or 1000AC would make you take much more damage with each hit, but you would get hit more often due to your AC being so low.  So, in essence, a player with 1000AC in plate, and one in cloth, both woudl be hit the same % of times, but the cloth wearer would take more damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does that make sense to anyone? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In summary (my opinion):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC = chance for mob to just miss you.</DIV> <DIV>Armor Type = mitigation potential</DIV> <DIV>Agility = increased chance for defensive skills to be succesfull (dodge, riposte, block, parry) and a small role in overall AC factor. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is troubling, because if what I think is true.. then avoidance (I.E. super high agility), NOT AC,  will be the key factor to being a great tank, which is a sad situation for races like Ogres and Trolls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by LumpyDoo on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:38 PM</span>

[LumpyD]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> orchidslyric wrote:<BR> <DIV>DId anyone ever think AC prevented damage?  Just to make sure you understand, it mitigates damage so that you take less damage (basically damage absorbtion), but it in no ways "prevents damage".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only damage prevention mechanism is Avoidance, via parry, block, dodge or just plain missing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now of course agility is going to make you better at Avoidance...and it is no secret that scout classes have inheritly higher agility.   So whats the problem?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just on a side note, if that Scout DOES get hit...hes gonna get alot harder then a tank will.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Hmm, see my previous post, this is exactly the idea I was talking about that I disagree with. Conceptually, I totally that is how it "should" work, but it doesn't appear so to me. </P> <P> </P>

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LumpyDoo wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> orchidslyric wrote:<BR> <DIV>DId anyone ever think AC prevented damage?  Just to make sure you understand, it mitigates damage so that you take less damage (basically damage absorbtion), but it in no ways "prevents damage".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only damage prevention mechanism is Avoidance, via parry, block, dodge or just plain missing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now of course agility is going to make you better at Avoidance...and it is no secret that scout classes have inheritly higher agility.   So whats the problem?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just on a side note, if that Scout DOES get hit...hes gonna get alot harder then a tank will.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Hmm, see my previous post, this is exactly the idea I was talking about that I disagree with. Conceptually, I totally that is how it "should" work, but it doesn't appear so to me. </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Interesting idea; kinda a wholesale paradigm shift though from EQ1 which was as Orchid described with mitigation and avoidance buckets behind UI AC (see steelwarrior.org library for explnations of that).  I have no idea how the stuff works in EQ2...I'm actually enjoying the mystery at this point.</DIV>

[Jher]

Hmm, could be a step back into the golden oldie P&P days...Must be some old cronies around that still remember the premise of THAC0?<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Luvie]

<DIV>To Hit Armor Class 0... Still fresh printed in my memory how that system works... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Daffid011]

Way back in early EQ whenever armor would reduce damage enough that it was zero or less, the interface would just report a miss to the players. That could also be the case here as the 200ac from the shield is reducing more normal attacks to zero and then reporting more misses. Armor class (and/or armor type) might play a factor in determining what the maximum damage can be mitigated per hit. Specials blast through the mitigation cap and show similar numbers each hit?Just some speculation on my part.

[CherobylJ]

<DIV>Filo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ1 used a DI (damage interval) and DB (Damage Bonus) model and these interacted these with the mitigation bucket.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically DI was your die 20, you had 20 discrete possibilities for any swing.  The DM was the amount max damage per interval, so if you had a DB of say 20 then your damage distribution would go from a min of 20 (DI 1) to max 400 (DI 20).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13" target=_blank>http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DI was adjustable by class hardwiring, e.g warrs had an automatic DI adjustment of -1 (so max dam was only a DI 19 *DM).  This used to honk other classes off (certain warr skills like defensive actually lopped the DB in half)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation actually reduced the DB across all DI (so your damage taken was reduced across the entire distribution) but it still didnt round down at DI 1, a min hit was a min hit (which is how they found the value of DB in the first place).  Avoidance literally was applied to avoid damage altogether.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It appears on the surface that this model doesnt apply in EQ2, or if it does then it applies in some sorta funky strange way.  I think its kinda cool because I like more magic and less science in the game. </DIV>

[MasterKa]

<DIV>So, wouldn't higher AGI make the serker not berserk as often since we aren't getting hit?</DIV>

[LumpyD]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MasterKane wrote:<BR> <DIV>So, wouldn't higher AGI make the serker not berserk as often since we aren't getting hit?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This would be a side-effect, yes. <BR>

[Diabol]

<DIV>Hah, well it seems 75% of my berserking comes from spamming my lev30 enrage upgrade baloks furious chant or whatever it is.  That is a great one, very good chance to berserk and a nice solid adept 2 aoe taunt, and the shortened timer makes it similar in recast to the duration of berserk. I get very little from focus rage these days, so I would be quite happy about not being hit, except fury/riposte damage would be a bit less too.  Everything has it's price I suppose.  </DIV>

[sceptre155]

<DIV>All this talk about agility is great, except  I'm a Ogre <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Except  I'm about as agile as bull in a china shop <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by sceptre155 on <span class=date_text>01-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span>

[Oracle_Centuri]

<DIV>Sceptre,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If what everyone is saying about agility is true I think I may have a way of testing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My girlfriend is a fury and is basically my static healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition, being as she is a fury she has some REALLY light armor, which I am not sure if you have noticed, is HEAVY on agility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will put her armor on tonight, and have her heal for me me against some ^^ Yellows with the Parser on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will then put my Armor back on, and repeat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My bet is that the diffrence will be around 20-25 agility, and appoximately the exact same results.   </DIV>

[Sinkat]

<DIV>Does AGI give only more evasion or does it give you more speed on your attacks as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you.</DIV>

[reakshav]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=4684" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=4684</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Check this link out from guard board: its about an Agility bug that troubadors have thats lets dps class tanks some high level mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Two things you aren't considering:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Agility makes you dodge more, so you get hit less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Agility adds AC making the hits you do take do less damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinkatze wrote:<BR> <DIV>Does AGI give only more evasion or does it give you more speed on your attacks as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Evasion, AC and accuracy are all affected by agility.<BR>

[Sinkat]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Gage-Mikel wrote:</P> <P>Evasion, AC and accuracy are all affected by agility.<BR><BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, that is great to know, I wasnt sure about what it gave exactly, thanks alot.</P> <P>Good Luck!<BR></P>

[sceptre155]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oracle_Centurian wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sceptre,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If what everyone is saying about agility is true I think I may have a way of testing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My girlfriend is a fury and is basically my static healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition, being as she is a fury she has some REALLY light armor, which I am not sure if you have noticed, is HEAVY on agility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will put her armor on tonight, and have her heal for me me against some ^^ Yellows with the Parser on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will then put my Armor back on, and repeat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My bet is that the diffrence will be around 20-25 agility, and appoximately the exact same results.   </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Any Luck Oracle?</DIV> <DIV>I'm curious to see your #'s  </DIV> <DIV>Please post your AC before and after too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Hoe]

My normal AGI is around 50. I get hit a lot. Last night I was in a group with a Warden that had some AGI buff. That got me up to around 100. Double the AGI, my hits were basically the same. I saw no difference whatsoever. The only difference that I really saw was when I used my own defensive abilities that bumped parry and block up. This allowed me to take drastically less damage, the AGI boost was at best only a minor aid to avoiding hits.

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>LumpyDoo wrote:This is troubling, because if what I think is true.. then avoidance (I.E. super high agility), NOT AC, will be the key factor to being a great tank, which is a sad situation for races like Ogres and Trolls.<hr></blockquote>I love having higher AGI... going from 40 to 70 is noticible to me, but it only seems to work vs pure melee <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> kinda hard to dodge the spells tossed at you, as those giants I was tanking last night were doing <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>sceptre155 wrote:<DIV>All this talk about agility is great, except I'm a Ogre <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><DIV>Except I'm about as agile as bull in a china shop <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by sceptre155 on <span class=date_text>01-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span><hr></blockquote>make friends with a troubador <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I go from 48 to 160+ when we have our full group with troubador together..

[LumpyD]

<DIV>I forget who said when their AGi hits 100 they notice no difference. For me, 100 was NOT the magic number, around 150 was. </DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Mine is 154 unbuffed and I enjoy it :smileytongue:</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<DIV>Mine is 154 unbuffed and I enjoy it :smileytongue:</DIV><hr></blockquote>/grumble<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> thats why I keep a bard around <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />sad part is my level 13 brawler has as high agi now as my serker.. guess I have to invest in some good hardware again..

[LumpyD]

<DIV>What race are you playing to have 154AGI? I am level 45 and a Barb, I have 90-105 depending on my gear selection AND I took the AGI traits.. </DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Half-Elf</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm;jsessionid=BDA7A5595CA8E39B70F75AF32ADE 5993.sdt-foyert16-27009?characterId=104053101" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm;jsessionid=BDA7A5595CA8E39B70F75AF32ADE 5993.sdt-foyert16-27009?characterId=104053101</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its 147 on my profile, but with my pristine lvl 50 tunic, its 154.</DIV>

[sceptre155]

<DIV>And the big question is, Do you notice a diffrence with AGI?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Yup.</DIV>

[Toxa]

<DIV>If this is true, that sucks. agi needs to be nerfed. All these ogre and troll tanks with low agi and they suffer because AGI is way overpowered.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Then raise your agility with items in the game and traits.</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Toxaur wrote:<DIV>If this is true, that sucks. agi needs to be nerfed. All these ogre and troll tanks with low agi and they suffer because AGI is way overpowered.</DIV><hr></blockquote>But they gain in having higher strength and stamina, increasing their attack and health and regen and can easily add AGI bonus equipment. And a half elf only has 7 more agility than a troll does, and 10 more than ogre. nominal equipment upgrades to counter that.

[Diabol]

<DIV>AGI will be nerfed im sure, its effects are clearly overstated compared to other abilies.. if an extra 50 agi lets you dodge an extra 20% of the damage coming it would have to compare to an extra 50 str increasing your damage output by like 40% because mobs hit for so much more than players.. and stamina is, well virtually useless, especially when you consider there is no CH in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diaboliq wrote:<BR> <DIV>AGI will be nerfed im sure, its effects are clearly overstated compared to other abilies.. if an extra 50 agi lets you dodge an extra 20% of the damage coming it would have to compare to an extra 50 str increasing your damage output by like 40% because mobs hit for so much more than players.. and stamina is, well virtually useless, especially when you consider there is no CH in the game.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I doubt it will be nerfed, since the devs have it and all other stats hard capped.  What most people don't realize is that its agility AND your defensive skills that matter the most.  Plus agility has three benefits: it adds AC, it increases your chance to evade and improves your accuracy.<BR> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>01-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:16 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toxaur wrote:<BR> <DIV>If this is true, that sucks. agi needs to be nerfed. All these ogre and troll tanks with low agi and they suffer because AGI is way overpowered.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Im 100% sure that they will already be looking into nerfing the way agility works for Plate class and to give a Light class a better inniate evasion rate depending on there Agility count ( if thats not how it already works, if it does they will most likely just lower plate class ). It makes no sense what so ever to have a Tank ( Plate Class ) acting like a Monk ( Light Class ) and im sure they would see this also.</P> <P>In my honest opion agility in this game is way overpowered, you get a Bard in your group top it off with a Defiler / Mystic, you have 100+ agility, wards plus the mob is slowed, u barely take damage. You can almost count on the evasion rate for plate class wearers to be " adjusted "</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 33rd Berserker<BR>10th Outfitter<BR>Leader of Justice Bringers<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk ( retired )<BR>17th outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>01-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:57 AM</span>

[FamilyManFir]

Here's a thought: what if AC mitigation is ignored for "spells?"One of the (legitimate, in my opinion) gripes that the Shaman classes have is that "spells" (read: Spells <i>and Combat Arts</i>) go right past their wards. Thus, a Wild Swing will completely ignore a Ward and, if it lands, do full damage. Now, Wild Swing does use Power but it's rather ludicrous to consider it a "spell."I suspect, however, with the rushed programming that apparently resulted from the early release of the game, that all "Power-using abilities" were treated the same. Thus, they ignore Wards. What if they ignore Mitigation also?After all, it doesn't make much sense for 1-inch thick plate armor to mitigate any damage from "Ball of Flame."However, while Combat Arts might ignore Mitigation, they wouldn't ignore Avoidance/Parry/etc. because one condition of their landing is that the mob actually hit. This might explain the apparent over-importance of Agility: it's not overpowered, it's working as intended, it's Combat Arts that are bugged because they ignore Mitigation.

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diaboliq wrote:<BR> <DIV>AGI will be nerfed im sure, its effects are clearly overstated compared to other abilies.. if an extra 50 agi lets you dodge an extra 20% of the damage coming it would have to compare to an extra 50 str increasing your damage output by like 40% because mobs hit for so much more than players.. and stamina is, well virtually useless, especially when you consider there is no CH in the game.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I doubt it will be nerfed, since the devs have it and all other stats hard capped.  What most people don't realize is that its agility AND your defensive skills that matter the most.  Plus agility has three benefits: it adds AC, it increases your chance to evade and improves your accuracy.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>01-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:16 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Thats correct Gage, but they wont " adjust " it for you, as a Monk class is born to evade / block, thats what they do, a Tank is born to take a hit, not evade it monk style with high end agility.</P> <P>If they dont fix agility they got only once choice which is to push the mobs attack ratings through the roof, which in turn will make Trolls and Ogres not worth a pinch of salt as a tank as they lose out in the agility department big time.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 33rd Berserker<BR>10th Outfitter<BR>Leader of Justice Bringers<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk ( retired )<BR>17th outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR>Here's a thought: what if AC mitigation is ignored for "spells?"<BR><BR>One of the (legitimate, in my opinion) gripes that the Shaman classes have is that "spells" (read: Spells <I>and Combat Arts</I>) go right past their wards. Thus, a Wild Swing will completely ignore a Ward and, if it lands, do full damage. Now, Wild Swing does use Power but it's rather ludicrous to consider it a "spell."<BR><BR>I suspect, however, with the rushed programming that apparently resulted from the early release of the game, that all "Power-using abilities" were treated the same. Thus, they ignore Wards. What if they ignore Mitigation also?<BR><BR>After all, it doesn't make much sense for 1-inch thick plate armor to mitigate any damage from "Ball of Flame."<BR><BR>However, while Combat Arts might ignore Mitigation, they wouldn't ignore Avoidance/Parry/etc. because one condition of their landing is that the mob actually hit. This might explain the apparent over-importance of Agility: it's not overpowered, it's working as intended, it's Combat Arts that are bugged because they ignore Mitigation.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I believe AC mitigation ignores spells now, which is why you have saves to mental, posion, divine etc, and also buffs that acually raise your spell mitigation ( as per the descritpions ) from certain caster / healer type class's.</P> <P>As for mobs combat arts ignoring mitigation and wards, could be a bug, but also might not be and might be the way they intend it too be, problem there is you will never know unless they post its a known issue or you see a fix.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 33rd Berserker<BR>10th Outfitter<BR>Leader of Justice Bringers<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk ( retired )<BR>17th outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</P>

[sceptre155]

<DIV>I agree that if everything here is actually happening that AGI modifiers need to be adjusted alittle based on class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[OverlordM]

<DIV>AGI tanks make the best tanks at the end game...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>however 10 AGI does not increase your avoidance by the amount you are implying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins with crazy AGI buffs and debuffs dont get hit....but seems that it kicks in off the charts at lvls monks even have a hard time reasching compared to assassins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It should eventually get ironed out..and in line with AC damage absoption but right now its a little insane....hell the entire end game is borked, dont bother playing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a zerk I think you would be nuts to shoot for high AGI over STR..we are a damage dealing + damge taking class</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by OverlordMLF on <span class=date_text>01-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>OverlordMLF wrote:<DIV>AGI tanks make the best tanks at the end game...</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>however 10 AGI does not increase your avoidance by the amount you are implying.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Assassins with crazy AGI buffs and debuffs dont get hit....but seems that it kicks in off the charts at lvls monks even have a hard time reasching compared to assassins.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>It should eventually get ironed out..and in line with AC damage absoption but right now its a little insane....hell the entire end game is borked, dont bother playing it.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>As a zerk I think you would be nuts to shoot for high AGI over STR..we are a damage dealing + damge taking class</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by OverlordMLF on <span class=date_text>01-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span><hr></blockquote>10 AGI is noticible to me on what can hit me.. it may not be much but it -is- noticible. But with the buffs I get from our bard, as well as the other classes in our group, I would sure hate to see what I get hit for (and how often) if I took on stuff that we normally do with the high agi on me. (High being more than +10)But, every little bit helps, and if I have a choice between +agi and +str, and it isn't a large chunk, I will go +agi. The less I have to get hit means the less that the priests have to heal, and while serks are offensive tanks, I would rather treat my job as tank FIRST and damage dealer second... so everything I do is to cater to being able to hold the most agro with the least effort.. on my part and the healers..

[OverlordM]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Well while I dont play the logging/parsing game that much.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>But... I would have to say "noticealbe" is really an interesting way to approach a topic like this..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>I mean we see it a lot here... someone makes a pretty incredible claim..without actually showing some hard facts...and lots of peeps just beleive it...such as out "we lost 40% of our damage claim " which I hope by now is seen as for what it is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>I would say noticeable is relative..as in if Im fighting greens it might make a noticeable diffference,..but to say notceable on group mobs in a group encounter I just dont think 10 of anything would be seen in a parse...anything noticed would be biased or RNG luck IMO. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Not saying you arent noticing this..because I feel I "notice" things as well.... butmy opinion about the class would be to focus on mitigation not avoidance.... as our ability to avoid vs group matched mobs is not something we can rely on...maybe AGI is bugged enough to allow a plate class to get up to the point of noticeable avoidance..but I havent seen any parsed logs that reflect it. And of course it will always come down to play style what you pick..AGI or STR I guess... but higher weapon skill and damage are more important to a class that relys on mitigation rather than avoidance.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>All-in-all We are still in early stages and you can bet that SoE will fix things long term.  Right now it seems as they are leaving End game alone to focus on the low/mid game...BUT I am sure AGI wil be the top fix (and actually a few of the AGI debuffs have already been reduced in effectiveness)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>You can also bet that as things evolve...Warriors and Zerks wil be the Main tanks groups look to for reliable tanking....Right now End game is absoluty not worth wasting your time to play IMO ..so many things are borked...hell a Pali can be the Main Healer while the Assassin plays main tank /laugh</FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#cccccc>Ill also add - I too agree...that playing tank is about being a good puller/tank for the effectiveness of the group.  I think STR over AGI works for this cause... Higher weapon skill = less misses and More damage.</FONT></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#cccccc>A Large Percent of a Zerks  Damage and agro comes from getting hit.  Your Fury's are probably the most Dps over time skill we have.  Getting hit puts us into a  rage..this too pulls agro. </FONT></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#cccccc>As for helping healers heal less, yeah thats a big part of the reason to use a shield, but honestly healing in this game is sweet.  As long as your healer is using their debuffs and casting their wards/reactives ..and the healer is not wasting power nuking and maintains high power pool... Healing is really done right in EQ2 if anything.</FONT></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#cccccc>If a zerk is trying to avoid damage.. I can tell you right now what you do nto want to do that will help 50x over picking the traits to increase your AGI or looking for AGI gear.  I have logs of this, might post if have time tonight...jsut dont go berserk.....</FONT></SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by OverlordMLF on <span class=date_text>01-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>