Bloodlust app III > adept III? no quailty change

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>For those of you who didnt read or see the post i posted earlier on the small variation between a zerker and guard skills, i pointed out in the post that there is no difference between a App III and Adept III Bloodlust.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got to talking with 4 Bersekers on Everfrost server, all of them had there Bloodlust skills at App III, i couldnt find one single Berserker who had Adept I at lvl 32, so i just got them all to completely debuff themselves and cast Bloodlust on them, all ungrouped and all lvl 32. I was the only one with Bloodlust Adept III and cant seem to find many Berserkers who have it on my server, so this is how it turned out :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>App III</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>7</FONT> to all offensive skills, crushing, slashing, peircing and raised Attack by <FONT color=#66cc00>11</FONT> points.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Adept III</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>7</FONT> to all offensive skills, crushing, slashing, peircing and raised Attack by <FONT color=#66cc00>11</FONT> points.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now im not 100% sure, but im pretty sure there should of been a bit of a more noticeable increasement then that. Can some other people run some tests, cause this could be our whole problem all along, the quaility of the skill seems broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wondering if SoE could take a look, ive /bugged it, so you never know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 32nd Berserker<BR>10th Outfitter<BR>Leader of Justice Bringers<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk ( retired )<BR>17th outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:22 AM</span>

[sceptre155]

<DIV>The increased damage on combat abilities seems to be so low I havent bothered going out of my way to purchase any. By the time i get enough money to purchase 1 adept 3 I've gained enough lvls to just use the upgraded version <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, the higher lvl i get the more i realize that the game is based almost entirely on PC lvl  vs NPC lvl.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Its not the damage im looking at here, the skill could be broken and there is probally more that are broken like this also, but because no buys or bother to chk's no one knows, so we just go on thinking its the way it must be, because of the same reason you dont buy or upgrade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have a point, some skills just arent worth upgrading to Adept 3 cause u lvl to fast, but there is a few skills that are worth it, Bloodlust and Bloodrage are 2 of them cause they have lasted me more then 10 lvls now and there still Yellow skills atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But no increase from App 3 to Adept 3? Thats just not right and could be our whole problem with the skills, it might be just simply broken and needs to be checked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thought is, what if the people who already had the skill at App III, Adept I or Adept III before the big patch has now had that  skill broken, so lets say for example if i was to buy Bloodlust Adept III now today and scribe it, it would work correctly, sort of like when they broke Race / Class Traditions, if you made a new Character, you could succesfully chose all your skills if u didnt make your char in between the time that they became bugged, but those who were bugged, didnt get any Race / Class Traditions offered to them till they reset them all in the big patch and had to rechose them all over again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 32nd Berserker<BR>10th Outfitter<BR>Leader of Justice Bringers<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk ( retired )<BR>17th outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:53 AM</span>

[CherobylJ]

<DIV>To be blunt, I have app 3 of this skill and see so little utility now that its off my main two hotkey bars (not a whine just a statement of fact) and have utlized other spells to do garner agro/berserk.  I'd not expect an adept 3 to magnify a weak skill into something of substance.</DIV>

[Tych]

<DIV>25 berserker, I've had Bloodlust at Adept I since I first learned the skill (pre-patch).  (bought the book at level 17 or so  for 10s).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just checked; it raises my attack by 10, and adds 6 to all offensive skills.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tychus on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:35 PM</span>

[Hopp]

<DIV>I harvested a  t3 and t4 rare and was very excited about getting Berserker Barrage adept 3 and Reckless Stance adept 3.  After getting them, I wish I had just sold the rares and used the cash to upgrade my equipment.  I noticed ZERO difference in adept 1 to adept 3 for BB, and very little change for RS.  I was expecting to notice a difference in damage, but there was none.  Not sure if this is bugged or working as intended...</DIV>

[Azad]

<DIV>I didnt notice a any change either going from app 3 to adept 3 on BB. I think alot of our adepts either arent working or if they work now the existing ones pre "nerf" aren't registering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Azadon on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CherobylJoe wrote:<BR> <DIV>To be blunt, I have app 3 of this skill and see so little utility now that its off my main two hotkey bars (not a whine just a statement of fact) and have utlized other spells to do garner agro/berserk.  I'd not expect an adept 3 to magnify a weak skill into something of substance.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>My group and I were in runnyeye last night, we were helping some friends do there runnyeye BP quests, we had a assassin in the group who was 9 lvls from a lvl 41 mob, Without Bloodlust he couldnt land a single hit on the mob because of his skills in offensive werent good enough, i cast Bloodlust and he could start to land hits, if it wore off, he couldnt hit them again. So to me its still a usefull utility, but thats not my point here, my point is, there not balanced : </P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>App III</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>7</FONT> to all offensive skills, crushing, slashing, peircing and raised Attack by <FONT color=#66cc00>11</FONT> points. At lvl <FONT color=#ff3300>32</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Adept I</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>6</FONT> to all offensive skills, crushing, slashing, peircing and raised Attack by <FONT color=#66cc00>10</FONT> points. At lvl <FONT color=#ff3300>25</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Adept III</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>7</FONT> to all offensive skills, crushing, slashing, peircing and raised Attack by <FONT color=#66cc00>11</FONT> points. At lvl <FONT color=#ff3300>32</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>That there is enough to tell you that there broken and need re-balance. I wouldnt expect to see a substantial increase from <FONT color=#ff3300>App I</FONT> to <FONT color=#ff3300>App III</FONT>, but i would expect it to be a substantial increase from <FONT color=#ff3300>App I</FONT> to </FONT><FONT color=#ff3300>Adept III</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>.  Here is a example, im using a Adept I skill of a Guardian that seems to be working correctly :</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Dig In</FONT> : Sacrifices offense and slows movement of the Guardian to greatly increase the defense and mitigation of the guardian :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This skill is Guardian only and obtained normally through leveling and is the upgrade to <FONT color=#6666ff>Hunker Down</FONT> :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Adept 1</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>9</FONT> to Defense, deducting <FONT color=#ff3300>7</FONT> from offense. Increases Mitigation greatly</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now we have no skill that <STRONG><U>Greatly</U></STRONG> increases our Offense at the cost defense like this skill works for a Guardian, since we are a <STRONG><U>offensive</U></STRONG> tank, you would think we would get a offensive skill that greatly added to our offensive abilitys at the cost of defense, same way a guardian gets a greatly increased defense and mitigation at the large cost of offense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not complaining about the skills we get between two class's here, im using this as a mere example that some if not most of our skills from <FONT color=#ff3300>App I</FONT> to <FONT color=#ff3300>Adept III</FONT> quaility need to be checked and fixed, cause it seems alot arent giving us the quaility there suppose too. If Bloodlust skill quailty was working correctly, combined with Berserk, we would get a greatly increased offensive ability like that, but the skill quailty is broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 32nd Berserker<BR>10th Outfitter<BR>Leader of Justice Bringers<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk ( retired )<BR>17th outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>01-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:20 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:21 PM</span>

[Styk]

For once i agree with you entirely on this topic Aonein.....Strykr Destructicus 33 Berserker AB Server

[Jher]

I'm a level 32 Berserker, and have BL at Adept1... I'll check the exact stats when I get home from work.

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> Without Bloodlust he couldnt land a single hit on the mob because of his skills in offensive werent good enough, i cast Bloodlust and he could start to land hits, if it wore off, he couldnt hit them again. <FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is an excellent point and one I hadnt thought of.  I find myself in that situation alot...that is a very good tip. <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just to be clear: I completely agree with your argument that skill scaling appears to be broken (that the benefits should be multiplicative rather than straight line as skill level progresses).</DIV><p>Message Edited by CherobylJoe on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:35 PM</span>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>CherobylJoe wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>-Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE> Without Bloodlust he couldnt land a single hit on the mob because of his skills in offensive werent good enough, i cast Bloodlust and he could start to land hits, if it wore off, he couldnt hit them again. <FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is an excellent point and one I hadnt thought of. I find myself in that situation alot...that is a very good tip. <BR><hr></blockquote>Not to mention that as a group buff it helps maintain agro control...

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>Not to mention that as a group buff it helps maintain agro control...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Doesnt really do jack for agro generation any more...I'd rather hold the power to cast a group buff that does.<BR>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>CherobylJoe wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Ariven wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>Not to mention that as a group buff it helps maintain agro control...<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Doesnt really do jack for agro generation any more...I'd rather hold the power to cast a group buff that does.<BR><hr></blockquote>It sure seems to work for me though. I use all my buffs and abilities to maintain agro, and there is a noticible (to me) difference when I let bloodlust lapse and when I use it.

[sceptre155]

<DIV>Good post, I agree with you on the sacrificing Defense for Offense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And thanks for posting the skill effects. Yet more proof that we are still in beta.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR><BR>It sure seems to work for me though. I use all my buffs and abilities to maintain agro, and there is a noticible (to me) difference when I let bloodlust lapse and when I use it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Its very possible that it does (no argument that subjectivity is a valid point here).  I tend to play with the same folks night in and out so I kinda know their agro boundaries, rarely will the incremental agro I get fro Bloodlust be of value (or needed) to myself.  However, I do not discount that other folks who play with a different mix of folks may want/need every tool in their aresenal this being one of them. </P> <P>Anyway I think I have led this tangent to far away from the orginal posters thought; I agree that skill scaling needs examination.</FONT></P> <P></FONT> </P> <P><BR></P>

[reakshav]

<DIV>I still use BL, its a nice buff also.  I also think rally cry is a really nice buff.  You get some decent AC increase compared to there abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Here is another example of a unbalanced skill :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Reckless Stance</FONT> : Slightly sacrifices offense for increased defense. Concentration x 3. Lasts 12 hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Adept I</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>7</FONT> to Defense skill and deducted <FONT color=#ff3300>3</FONT>  from all offensive skills, crushing, slashing, piercing. At lvl <FONT color=#ff3300>33</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Weapon Shield</FONT> : Increases parry skill. Concentration x 3, lasts for 3 mins? ( possibly bug ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Adept I</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>10</FONT> to Parry skill. At lvl <FONT color=#ff3300>33</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Defense</FONT> : This is how well you avoid physical attacks.           { These seem backwards to me. }</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Parry</FONT> : This is how well you intercept incoming attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as i have pointed out before, we get no skill or spell that greatly increase our ability to increase our Offensive skills if we wanted to like a Guard can with his Defense / AC / Mitigation but at a large cost in offense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If our Bloodlust skill plus Berserk skills were working correctly, this would be one for us to greatly increase our Offensive skill, but it doesnt greatly increase anything at any quaility level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I dont know about you guys, but id be willing to say from those two descriptions on those skills ( defense / parry ) that Reckless Stance is useless, why? Because you can simply boost you agility to avoid physical attacks and a get a increase to your Parry to increase your ability to intercept incoming attacks and keep your offenisve skills in tack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, how unbalanced would it be to make Weapon Shield to use 1 concentration point instead of 3, BUT leave it on a 3 min timer. I can see no reason or way this would unbalance the class in any shape or form, as Guardians get greatly increased chances at boosting several skills, AC / Parry / Defense / Mitigation. So for example we would look like this :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reckless Stance / Weapon Sheild / Fury ( Greater Fury for higher levels which also seems broken ). If this is asking too much, then maybe look at adding a slight decrease to offensive skills for the use of Weapon Shield at 1 concentration point, leaving it on a 3 min timer, allowing us to intercept damage that little bit better. So in pratical it would look like this :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Reckless Stance</FONT> : Slightly sacrifices offense for increased defense. Concentration x 3, lasts 12 hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Adept I</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>7</FONT> to Defense and deducted <FONT color=#ff3300>3</FONT> from all offensive skills, crushing, piercing, slashing. At lvl <FONT color=#ff3300>33</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Weapon Shield</FONT> : Increases parry skill at a slight decrease in offense. Concentration x 1, lasts 3 min's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Adept I</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>10</FONT> to Parry and deducted <FONT color=#ff3300>2</FONT> from all offensive skills, crushing, piercing, slashing. At lvl <FONT color=#ff3300>33</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From the descriptions of the Defense and Parry skill though in the game, im more inclined to just not use Reckless Stance and use Weapon sheild anyways, why? its simple, why use a skill that lowers my offensive skills when i can just use agility to avoid physical attacks and use Parry skill to intercept incoming attacks, but if i could stack the 2 skills, i would, even for the cost of -5 to offensive skills, total.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind im speaking from a main tank point of view here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 33rd Berserker<BR>10th Outfitter<BR>Leader of Justice Bringers<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk ( retired )<BR>17th outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>01-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:24 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>01-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 AM</span>

[CherobylJ]

<DIV>Aye I see much better results with weapon shield than anything else (low 30s Bers here).   I only find I use the stance if weapon shield is down...it really doesnt seem subjectively to make a big difference (stance). </DIV>

[Jher]

<DIV>Ok, didn't get on last night, but am about now, so a few stats for you at level 32:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Bloodlust Adept 1</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raises S/C/P by 7</DIV> <DIV>Raises Attack by 12 (hrm, you got 11 at Adept 3?! Perhaps it actually rounds, but does not display fractions)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Reckless Stance App IV</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raises Defense skill by 7</DIV> <DIV>Reduces  S/C/P by 3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Weapon Shield at a measly App 1 (the concentration issue relegated this off my hotbar)</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raises Parry by 5</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Battle Chant Adept I</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raises Strength by 8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Stifled Rage App III</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Increases Defense by 8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only bothered listing buffs with room to grow. Have fun with the numbers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Stifled Rage</FONT> : Decreases attack rate and increases defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>App I</FONT> added <FONT color=#66cc00>5</FONT> to Defense skill and <FONT color=#66cc00>5</FONT> to AC. At lvl <FONT color=#ff3300>33</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doesnt stack with Reckless Stance, does in your buff window, but skill wise it doesnt. I tested it with Reckless stance, completely unbuffed myself, cast Stifled Rage, got 5 skill points to Defense, cast Reckless Stance, got 2, removed Stifled Rage, it stayed what it was, didnt change. Just another reason to not even use Reckless Stance and use Weapon Shield plus Stifled Rage ( like i spoke about above ), but the problem with Weapon Shield is once the buff runs out, or you cancel it to renew it, you gotta stand there for 30 seconds for it to refresh, if u could cast it over the top of it like you can with Focus Rage, it wouldnt be such a probelm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is alot of buffs that dont stack skill wise, but will stack in your window, so please make sure to test all these and post them here on the site so we can get a deeper look.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope SoE look into alot of our skills cause they really do not seem to be work correctly, stacking wise and quaility wise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 33rd Berserker<BR>10th Outfitter<BR>Leader of Justice Bringers<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk ( retired )<BR>17th outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>01-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:52 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>01-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:56 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>01-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:56 AM</span>

[asteldian]

<DIV>A lot of skills are far from working properly, i dont just mean bugged skills i mean skill upgrades, SOE have put the theory of upgradable spells into the game but they are still in the process of actually fully sorting it, its still relatively early days and there are a lot of skills in the game all going from app1-master4 thats a lot of upgrades.  Course the debate could be are app3 skills doing more than they should?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having Adept 3 is a waste now but in time it wont be, question is how much time?</DIV>