Why is everyone missing the point here? It not about agro - its about damge in=vs=damage out

[bpark]

<DIV>I keep hearing people talk about the "agro" issue - which I think 80% of us know thats not the problem as that has been fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The real problem here is we dont dish out the same damage as before but we still take the same ammount of damage as before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example - lets pick Guardian for sake of conversation here as they are a brother to us in class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we out damaged Guards by 30% - we also took 30% more damage than Guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, after patch we out damage Guardians by 10% but we still take 30% more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Screw the agro issue - we need to balance the damage in - vs - damage out issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>(Disclaimer - the % #s I used were just for example and not to be considered accurate or absolute, they are just there as an example as I do now know the actual #s)</FONT></DIV>

[Diabol]

<DIV>Its also worth mentioning (*especially* with all the mob health and damage buffing lately) that damage in isn't equal to damage out... mob vs player health and damage are skewed.  An extra 10% to defense gives you a lot more than an extra 10% to offense.   </DIV>

[Arsen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bparker wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=1>(Disclaimer - the % #s I used were just for example and not to be considered accurate or absolute, they are just there as an example as I do now know the actual #s)</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The numbers are kind of the crux of the argument though so their accuracy is pretty important <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is that Beserkers can use exactly the same equipment as Guardians so they have the same AC and the same base defense.  Beserkers may not like using a shield, but to tank high level encounters, it is going to be the most effective way to do it for them.  The real difference between the classes is in the buffs and how they affect the fight.  The way I understand it the buffs are pretty similar except that guardians generally boost defense and Beserkers incease the offense... keep in mind this is for the ENTIRE GROUP.  This means that Beserkers effectively increase the DPS for the ENTIRE GROUP causing encounters to be shorter over all.  What the exact numbers of these buffs turn out to be is going to be tough to determine - it is going to take a lot of log parsing and study, and that will take time to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I think one could effectively argue that a beserkers buffs are more desireable since everyone in the group is using offensive skills while only one person in the group tanks and benefits from a guardian's defensive buffs.</DIV>

[13th Warri]

if we outdamage Guardians by 10%, shouldn't we have 10% less defense and AC than that of a Guardian?Isn't the Guardian classs meant to be the mirror of the berserker class?It looks like thats not the case <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Explains why I'm having problems getting into a group recently <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[cr0wangel]

<DIV>It's the problem here, you're right. how the character can be efficient? We won't do enough damage to kill the encounter in time, we will run out of health before it dies, so not balanced. This is not about aggro or bloodlust. We need more damage to kill it quickly or more defense to survive the long fight. So berserkers are asking their damage back or more defense, but then we will be gardians if we get more defense. So players are asking the DPS back.</DIV>

[asteldian]

<DIV>i think the additional defense loss from berserk will need to be removed, our DPS is only slightly better than guardians, our tanking is slightly worse, but berserk makes us considerably worse</DIV>

[OverlordM]

<DIV> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=2>We are still a very versatile and diverse TANK class. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I think a lot of peeps rolled a berserker because they wanted to be a Scout in plate armor. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>This class is way unique for an MMO and frankly its one of the most fun Pure Tank classes I have played. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Keep gaining in level...as you do..the class gains access to more skills that are not on the same timers....through that alone we gain a good amount of skill damage... </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Initially a lot of people complained about ability to hold agro..when talking about the Bers nerf...Which of course has been debunked as we still are the best agro magnets in game..... now its solely migrated to a damage loss issue....and most keep quoting the unsubstantiated 40% damage loss statement </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>When in fact we have not lost 40% damage. That number comes from a poorly used case of a few fights pre- patch and post patch ...I guarantee we have not lost 40% damage due to the loss of Bloodlust procing every time. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Of course nobody has shown realistic numbers or actually put anything but that loss of 40% damage statement up....to which everyone immediately accepted as truth.</FONT></P></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Vanes]

<DIV>And then you have other people that claimed nothing was wrong at all prior to the hotfix announcement when going Berserk was causing Bloodlust to reset.   Or the people that claimed everything was ok and that our DPS were not even nerfed prior to Moorgards message which said yes Berserker DPS was nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people just have no issue when bad things are done to them, they take it with a smile and ask for more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not one of those people.   Faced with the choice between being a half Guardian and being a Guardian I'll be a Guardian and be able to win out a spot in a group against ANY Berserker in game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also all a person has to do is read the posts by high level Berserkers, and then the post from Moorgard and it is not a large leap to figure that Berserkers are going to get more nerfs to lower DPS at the higher levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanessa </DIV>

[Nof]

<DIV>Actually Arsenal you are wrong about the buffs, if you read the Berzerker Combat Arts descriptions in almost all of them we are sacrificing our offense for defense, I made a post about that earlier and how it's confusing considering that we are supposed to be two different types of class. WHY on EARTH do we have skills like Hunker Down and Hold the Line or Soldiers Stance? They increase DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't understand!! </DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>OverlordMLF wrote:When in fact we have not lost 40% damage. That number comes from a poorly used case of a few fights pre- patch and post patch ...I guarantee we have not lost 40% damage due to the loss of Bloodlust procing every time. </FONT></P><P><FONT size=2>Of course nobody has shown realistic numbers or actually put anything but that loss of 40% damage statement up....to which everyone immediately accepted as truth.<hr></blockquote>Just looking at the numbers.. some of the rudimentary testing I have done, as well as some comments about testing by others it seems that going berserk gives approximately 30% buff to our attack speed. Using that approximation you can start to come close to the amount of damage loss we have received. Working with a base of 100, that gives us 130% speed after bloodlust would fire.Assuming just counting autofire alone, that means if no berserk fired off -at all- it would be equal to about a 23% cut in DPS. The complexity would come into play as you add in specials based damage done. I would be surprised if our damage output was cut more than 25-30% overall based entirely on removing beserk from our buff lists.Thats my worse case scenario, since I do get serk a few times in combat, the tougher the mob the more it fires off (since the more I get hit) so it isn't even steady flow but a scaled increase. Harder mobs should take more damage per hitpoint than weaker mobs do just on that fact alone now, resulting with higher DPS vs higher mobs and our lowest dps vs grey mobs.Overall, I dont -like- the reduction, but it certainly isn't -bad- for me, and I supported the change to bloodlust so I am content that the minor issues will all work out in the end. I am at level 27 now and we were taking on stuff that ranged from blue^^ to me up to yellow^^ to me with no problems last night, with our healer at level 25 able to keep up fully with me, and me never getting below mid point on my HPs..but I ramble.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Overall my eddymacated guess as to damage loss would probably be nearer to 20% than 40%, by a long shot. Barring -other- changes they may have done other than simply fixing bloodlust... I await some detailed combat logs to show what we are getting though.

[Diabol]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nofoa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Actually Arsenal you are wrong about the buffs, if you read the Berzerker Combat Arts descriptions in almost all of them we are sacrificing our offense for defense, I made a post about that earlier and how it's confusing considering that we are supposed to be two different types of class. WHY on EARTH do we have skills like Hunker Down and Hold the Line or Soldiers Stance? They increase DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't understand!! </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I do believe all the skills you gave as examples are warrior skills, not berserker skills.  Only the skills you get at 20+ are class specific.  That said, we do get a few defensive oriented skills but they are nothing compared to guardian.  They mostly exist as an emergency option and to help with aggro control.  </P> <P> </P>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Vanessa wrote:Faced with the choice between being a half Guardian and being a Guardian I'll be a Guardian and be able to win out a spot in a group against ANY Berserker in game.<hr></blockquote>Well not in a group I ran you wouldn't. Last time I ran a group with one of my non-serker alts we specifically turned down guardians and paladins in favor of a berserker. We know how serks operate (due to me being the usual tank), know how they get hit, know their skillset and specials and would rather work with what works for us than with something that doesn't operate how we want them to operate.

[asteldian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OverlordMLF wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=2>We are still a very versatile and diverse TANK class. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I think a lot of peeps rolled a berserker because they wanted to be a Scout in plate armor. </FONT></P></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><BR> <HR> </P> <P> </P> <P>Actually, i pictured myself more of a monk in plate armor (minus the huge avoidance and using mitigation instead) :smileyhappy:</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Nof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OverlordMLF wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=2>We are still a very versatile and diverse TANK class. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><STRONG><FONT size=6>I think a lot of peeps rolled a berserker because they wanted to be a Scout in plate armor.</FONT></STRONG> </FONT></P></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Are you [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? A scout in plate armor? They do TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF DAMAGE!  Sure, its still melee, but in EVERY setting you EVER see a "scout" the whole idea behind them is to move lightly and fast, they do little damage with the light weapons they carry, a Berzerker is the lumbering tank of DEATH, they WADE into a group of enemies instead of hitting them from the outside edges, while WADING IN they wreak havoc with an AXE, a BIG ONE, they are ANGRY, a scout uses a light weapon and attacks using terrain and stealth to their advantage, a bow or a short sword, they avoid notice, Berzerkers ATTRACT attention, they yell, they scream, they get angry, they swing a BIG F'ING AXE! Where on EARTH do you think that in a comparable fight that scouts are relatively similiar to a Berzerker even when it comes to melee damage? That's the problem with these people arguing about it, they just don't understand that there are DIFFERENT TYPES OF DAMAGE, different types of ENCOUNTERS, the fact is that we are doing LESS PHYSICAL DAMAGE than EVERY other class! That is OUR specialty! Physical ram my axe into your FACE Damage! Not slide in and slip my dagger between your ribs, not pray for a disease or a lightning bolt or a fireball! </DIV>

[Nof]

<DIV>This is a list on EQ2's main site, these are ALL Berzerker skills, no Warrior ones thrown in:<BR><BR>BerserkerRaging Strike     berserk     24.6180   Reduces damage slightly while granting a chance to berserk with each hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BerserkerStifled Rage        berserk   26550          Decreases attack rate and increases defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>BerserkerReckless Stance berserk     30.6413      Slightly sacrifices offense for increased defense. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BerserkerControlled Rage   berserk     40.8120     Decreases attack rate and increases defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker  Unflinching Will  berserk  44.4113      Sacrifices offense for increased defense and an increase in mental resistance.</DIV> <P> </P> <P>What I find amusing is Raging Strike, you reduce damage, presumably your own but you gain the chance to get angry and do MORE damage? Thats odd... I hope its a significant increase in damage over what your losing while using the skill...</P>

[Padi]

<DIV>Raging STrike only lasts 1-2 seconds...so you don't lose much.  It has a little damage too.</DIV>

[Nof]

<DIV>If it only lasts 1-2 seconds whats the point of having it as a skill? Seriously? You lower your damage for what, 1 hit? My axe takes 2.5 seconds to swing, wheres the benefit of the skill at all? I "Might" score a successful hit and get berzerk IF I use it at the right time and IF i don't swing and miss? </DIV>

[Diabol]

<DIV>Those are 5 skills out 30 levels worth, that's not many.    Reckless stance is the upgrade to soldier stance, and i think controlled rage is an upgraded to stifled rage, they also have the affect of reducing hate - think of them as tools to help cool down and get aggro to someone else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[OverlordM]

<FONT color=#cccccc></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nofoa wrote:<BR> <DIV>If it only lasts 1-2 seconds whats the point of having it as a skill? Seriously? You lower your damage for what, 1 hit? My axe takes 2.5 seconds to swing, wheres the benefit of the skill at all? I "Might" score a successful hit and get berzerk IF I use it at the right time and IF i don't swing and miss? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You do realize that a lot of skills are still bugged...right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i mean every class has tonnes of issues with skills not working at all or as intended...as well as descriptions are pretty inaccurate on some...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the post in caps and large letters..while I was unable to get through the whole thing..I got the jist of it... and I thnk its a great example of what I said... " I think a lot of peeps picked Bers to be a scout in plate"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you can take that literal or you take taht as intended.... Scout = DPS...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So " I think a lot of peeps picked a bers to be a DPS in plate"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really I mean you cant have your cake and eat it too...we are versitle tanks that are Agro magnets, increase group DPS...kick butt AOEs and can use plate and a large shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those who think we are half a gaurdian..lol go roll a guardian. Your comments are nothing but for the want of  continuing a pity party here on the zerk forums..and frankly the pity party syndrom isnt going to make the devs give us any DPS increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are serious...you could go take real logs and real comparisions to gaurdians to justify your case...which you wont do becuase not only is it too hard, but its too easy to just sit on a 40% number and claim the class is non viable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gaurdian is prolly the most boring A-typical tank you could play.  pull-taunt-wee</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker is still top dog in the MT department for a variety of reasons</DIV>

[OverlordM]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vanessa wrote:<BR> <DIV>And then you have other people that claimed nothing was wrong at all prior to the hotfix announcement when going Berserk was causing Bloodlust to reset.   Or the people that claimed everything was ok and that our DPS were not even nerfed prior to Moorgards message which said yes Berserker DPS was nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people just have no issue when bad things are done to them, they take it with a smile and ask for more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not one of those people.   Faced with the choice between being a half Guardian and being a Guardian I'll be a Guardian and be able to win out a spot in a group against ANY Berserker in game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also all a person has to do is read the posts by high level Berserkers, and then the post from Moorgard and it is not a large leap to figure that Berserkers are going to get more nerfs to lower DPS at the higher levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanessa </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I wont even bother puling out all your quotes about how "bers are non-viable"</P> <P>Vanessa cant hold agro, vanessa cant get a group, vanessa does 40% less agro, vanessa is half of a gaurdian ..blah blah. </P> <P>BUT I have the enrgy to do so if you want to keep nagging me everytime I post something constructive about my experiences.</P> <P>Yes, Well I will take a moment to reply to this as you seem to follwo me and put a slant on everything I say which is incorrect and biased...work for CBS? </P> <P>Anyway When bloodlust was broke.. NO I and others did not say it was NOT broke.  We knew it was broke as it DROPPED after one proc.  BUT the thing you do not understand is thet We KNEW the proc was reduced....that was a No-duh.  </P> <P>So you misunderstood.  We did know the proc rate was nerfed.  However.. MOST of us stopped using bloodlust all together because it dropped after one proc...and we used otehr skills... picking on this stupid point is jsut taht, stupid...because you assume that the obvous needed to be explained to be understood, when in fact it only needed to be explained to you.</P> <P>Bloodlust is nerfed and now it simply works and does not drop after one proc...assuming we didnt understnad this basic concept is pretty wierd.</P> <P>I have always said we lost DPS due to not being in berserk mode 100% of the time..duh I mean not perma hasted...anyone could comprehend that...we lost dps...but we did not lose 40%.</P> <P>Go roll your gaurdian already.</P> <P>With your pity party, the sky is grey attitude I dont think its any wonder why you are challenged with finding groups.</P><p>Message Edited by OverlordMLF on <span class=date_text>01-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:45 PM</span>

[Raidyen]

<DIV>OverlordMLF wrote</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-------</DIV> <DIV>Yes, Well I will take a moment to reply to this as you seem to follwo me and put a slant on everything I say which is incorrect and biased...work for CBS? </DIV> <DIV>-------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats funny.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Reol]

<DIV>All you idiots posting this crap about zerkers wanting to be scouts in plate, there is no reduction to AC, etc etc etc, are you Guardians or Berserkers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I figure Guardians....why....everyone of you sits here NOW THAT WE HAVE been nerfed, and spew this garbage about " oh theres no problem....its the way its supposed to be" Bullfarking crap is it. You guys are happy the berserker got nerfed...and your trying to make it sound like its ok.....maybe in your delusional self absorbed self-centred little worlds you live in everything is fine. In fact i find it to be rude the way you presume everything works the way its supposed to...obviously you have never looked at the berserker class and you must not be playing the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] class to make such dumb comments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There have been many many people already stating we don't want more [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] aggro...we want dps.....no we don't want more dps than monks/bruisers....scouts.....we want more than YOU GUARDIANS! if you don't like it tough $h!t, they need to do one of two things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Remove or reduce the level at which our ac drops from berserking...we barely have a dps advantage over the Guardians at them moment, maybe forever. No penalty should be applied.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Add a penalty to the Guardians....(We can play your game too Guards.)....we get a penalty to defense for getting increased attack rate etc....then for having a increased defensive ability you guys should take a hit in the attack rating...your not trying to be damage dealers anyways...are you....or are you trying to be a scout in plate armor?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IF a berserker has intended on being a High Dps class well i think you were mislead or made a zerker after you were playing with a berserker in a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can speak towards my own intent...and that was I wanted to be a 2handed wielding, dual wielding fury that could help damage a mob and take it down, I was fully ready to pay a penalty to AC to get this benefit.which in its own right was a downside...due to the increased damage you take......I didn't want to be a guard sitting and tanking for group...I wanted to fill in if needed and even in that case...the use of bloodlust etc....was not meant to be a 1 in all solution...I had planned to use a shield and 1hander to tank if need be, I think of my zerker as a HUGE wielding 2hander monster that destroys his opponents and is proud to have smeared my weapon wiht my enemies blood...while the guardian makes sure that the group is safe and sound.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However it seems that some guardians are just too [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] narrow sighted to see that......./pity guardians.</DIV>

[Vanes]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Eh Overlord you have made plenty of utterly foolish posts all a person has to do is look them up.  In fact you keep disappearing after getting ripped to pieces and then coming back 24 to 48 hours later on totally different threads is rather funny.   Eventually if you keep posting with your "feelin fine" crap you'll get ripped to pieces again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comon Overlord sing it with me, "Everything is fine!"  Heh this forum is about as upset and angry as any class forum i've ever seen but it does not keep you from spreading your message about how it's all just coming up roses.  Be it born out of a low IQ or out of stubborness whichever, I do salute you for being so steadfast in your positive thinking.   Even if you do use it as a way to name call others and try and brag about yourself.</DIV> <DIV><BR>You remind me of Eric Idle on the crucifix at the end of Life of Brian.   heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and Ariven, prior to these changes that makes sense.   Now, well if your only going after Berserkers for tanks then I wouldnt join your group anyway, whatever my class.  Berserkers just take to much power from healers to keep alive at least in my level range.   Unless they are higher level...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 37+ crowd like Overlord have not been effected as much by this nerf.   Because of that and because of Moorgard saying Berserker DPS is being reduced, well, I seriously doubt that the only Berserker DPS they planned on reducing was 20 to 35 level players.</DIV> <DIV><BR>I believe 100% that more nerfs are coming, aimed at the higher levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanessa</DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Vanessa on <span class=date_text>01-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:47 PM</span>

[Nof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diaboliq wrote:<BR> <DIV>Those are 5 skills out 30 levels worth, that's not many.    Reckless stance is the upgrade to soldier stance, and i think controlled rage is an upgraded to stifled rage, they also have the affect of reducing hate - think of them as tools to help cool down and get aggro to someone else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Why would you want to give aggro to someone else? The Berzerker specialty is grabbing aggro, holding it, dealing out damage, killing something, and then when the battle is DONE you cool down before you take on more, or you get angry and go kick some more heads in. And 5 worthless skills combined with the other useless ones that we've outgrown is still too many that could be modified so you didn't have ANY useless skills. It's like giving a mage a spell that drains their power to increase their health... that's not very useful during battle now is it?

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Vanessa wrote:Oh and Ariven, prior to these changes that makes sense. Now, well if your only going after Berserkers for tanks then I wouldnt join your group anyway, whatever my class. Berserkers just take to much power from healers to keep alive at least in my level range. Unless they are higher level...<hr></blockquote>Thats where I believe you wrong. The healers that end up in my groups are usually one of the two from my guild, both of them are lower level than myself. anywhere from 1-4 levels below me. Last night while pulling giants that were yellow ^^ to me at level 27 the single healer in my group was level 25 and was able to handle just fine, usually going no lower than half power during any given encounter, and in fact the only one who DID drop below half more than once was the summoner who loved to cast his spells. We know how to pace ourselves, we know how our classes work, we know when the damage is coming in and we know how to deal with stuff. I am usually able to judge quite well what we can and can not pull, and aim for stuff that forces us to about 50% usage of power to remain efficent (i.e. able to handle adds with no problem, able to ramp up damage level fast to deal with a sudden add that wants to eat our healers, etc).So your blanket statement about berserkers taking up too much power seems a bit odd... since I -do- get hammered hard and I -do- know that the healer has to work.It isn't all cut and dried, and we all have to work to adjust to the changes as they happen... and our group has done so.. and I sure enjoy playing my serker... to the point where I have to ration my playtime as him or I will outpace the rest of my regular group in levels.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Nof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OverlordMLF wrote:<BR><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Really I mean you cant have your cake and eat it too...we are versitle tanks that are Agro magnets, increase group DPS...kick butt AOEs and can use plate and a large shield.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>We never wanted to wear plate, in fact in the book I got with the game it says I can't wear Vanguard even, Zerkers should NOT be using a shield anyway, I've never once used a shield, I have always used the Jagged Blade of the Berzerker, if I wanted to use a shield I'd have been a Guardian. What I WANT to be able to do is take my BIG [Removed for Content] AXE and put it through the heads of my enemies with sufficient damage to make it all worthwhile. If some 3 foot tall rat with a dagger is doing MORE damage in the thick of a huge battle than I am there is a HUGE problem here. What happens when you go up against say a level 40 dragon? Dragons have huge magical resistances, high physical resistances, so your going to need something that can deal out a certain type of heavy melee damage to take down a dragon and thats where we come in, they need to modify encounters for different classes, not the classes themselves. We already know you can aggro in town because of that quest in the commonlands, why not make specialized assassin quests where you can sneak into a zone, "Assassinate" (imagine that, an assassin assassinating someone...) an NPC and then sneak back out past a group of enemies, THAT is a quest worth doing for your class, not gearing up in your leather with your little stiletto, run into the middle of a group of NPC Monsters and leap on the nearest one, that doesn't work because they way they designed group aggro you just end up training across the level. </DIV>

[Diabol]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nofoa wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diaboliq wrote:<BR> <DIV>Those are 5 skills out 30 levels worth, that's not many.    Reckless stance is the upgrade to soldier stance, and i think controlled rage is an upgraded to stifled rage, they also have the affect of reducing hate - think of them as tools to help cool down and get aggro to someone else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Why would you want to give aggro to someone else? The Berzerker specialty is grabbing aggro, holding it, dealing out damage, killing something, and then when the battle is DONE you cool down before you take on more, or you get angry and go kick some more heads in. And 5 worthless skills combined with the other useless ones that we've outgrown is still too many that could be modified so you didn't have ANY useless skills. It's like giving a mage a spell that drains their power to increase their health... that's not very useful during battle now is it?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe you aren't the MT?  Maybe the healer is out of power, you are low on health and there is another tank in the group trying to take aggro from you so that you can continue doing damage while he takes a few blows, hopefully buying enough time to come out on top.  There are scenarios, even if they aren't typical.   Would you rather have a gun and not need it or need it and not have it? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fafnir]

<DIV>I guarantee you this:</DIV> <DIV>1. when fighting boss mobs, the highest defensive tank who can hold agro will be the MT;</DIV> <DIV>2. when doing xp or item drop groups, the most offensive tank which can be healed by the healing power of the group will be preferred, so as to maximise xp gain or the number of mobs killed for drops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once folks understand that BERs are (almost) just as good a tank as GUA, it will be a pretty obvious choice for who they want to tank in normal group situations.  Either will do, but you'll always go for the optimum given a choice...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nof]

<DIV>lol last time that situation came up I was still the last choice, we had a 29 monk, 2 26 Mystics, 23 Berzerker (me) and a 23 Guardian, Monk was our MT Guardian Backup Tank, when both the monk and the Guarian went down, guess who tanked while they got Rez'd? Not me! One of our Mystics drew aggro and tanked better than I could! How lame is that! I've got a full set of AQ Armor, Pristine Forged Carbonite Barbute and upgraded jewelry etc so my AC isn't slacking, but I still got pwnt! And these were giants for crying out loud! </DIV>

[Arsen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reolas wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Add a penalty to the Guardians....(We can play your game too Guards.)....we get a penalty to defense for getting increased attack rate etc....then for having a increased defensive ability you guys should take a hit in the attack rating...your not trying to be damage dealers anyways...are you....or are you trying to be a scout in plate armor?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However it seems that some guardians are just too [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] narrow sighted to see that......./pity guardians.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Reolas, you will be happy to know that the better guardian buffs (the ones to the defense skill) actually do lower the offensive skill of the guardian.  Pretty cool eh?  Now SOE is nerfing people faster than you can even ask!</P> <P>Remember, the grass is always greener... Beserkers for some reason think that Guardians have this high DPS thing going on, but the truth is we are low man on the totem pull.  Right above healers, and maybe Paladins - and thats about it.  We tank - and we hold aggro while other people dish out damage.  Thats the price you pay for good defensive buffs. <BR></P>