Berserkers : Redesigned by peer pressure?

[Lut]

I always envisioned the classes as being in a race, and balance meaning if we played the same amount of time, we whould cross that 50 line at the same time. This of course will never happen, but if that is used as the definition of balance wouldnt that be fair?The Berzerker, crosses the 50 line barely alive, he's throw himself with abandon into the fray, causing healers to grimace in panic. He gets the job done, then enemy's dead quickly although the berzerker as almost no health and the healer has no mana.The Monk/Brawlers, the cross the line, battered and bruised (Now come on, which martial arts film doesnt have the hero beaten up at the end), thier fighting style means they done the job, not as quickly as a Berzerker, but they walk away with thier healer with half health and half power.The Guardians, they cross the line non-chalantly, thier armour's dented and they look worse for wear, but they've eased through the fights, they stand there like a towering wall that the mobs endlessly throw themselves against, they walk away from the fight last, but have the most resource to jump right into the next one.Mean while, the Zerker and his poor frightened healer have recovered enough to move onto the next fight, along with the monk/bruiser.I would have thought the above scenario would have suited almost everyone's needs, the seat of the pants, gamer gets to play a zerker and live life on the edge, the middle of the road's play monk/bruisers the best of both worlds, and the safe and sedate's get to play Guardians.This is how i saw the class definitions, and why I picked a Berzerker, my play style is to punish healers <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (I play a templar too, and love a challenge).It just seems to me that the class distinctions arnt qualified enough, each of the classes looks at the other and only see's what the "DPS counters" want to see. Bring in the old EQ1 folks, who pick thier classes because..well, in EQ1 thats what they were right?, why arnt they that here? Hey! that guy can do more dps...thats wrong....Devs! change it!In my view, im getting told that my class isnt a dps class, and thats what scouts/rogues etc are...why? I dont understand? Scouts go out solo and scout...that what thier name suggests, give them a bow, show them a forest and off they go. Rogues belong in cities, stealing purses and being sneaky, so why exactly are these 2 classes classified as being the damage dealers of the melee world?This is all my opinion of course, Im not the designer for this game, so I cant possibly know what thier definitions were for the classes, or what they wanted to provide in the way of progress. But im getting a feeling that whoever designed the classes isnt thier anymore, probably moved onto the expansions to earn thier money, and all we have left are the sales guys, and tinkerers who are trying to keep customers happy.Im not offering any solutions here, they are after all running a business, and im only one person, it would be fool hardy for them to re-design the game to my view....but it appears its quite alright to do it for others, the masses speak, and they re-act.I would love to talk to the guy's who came up with the design for this game, see what they envisioned for the classes, and see how much thats changed.Obviously they had thier vision for Berzerkers, its whats labelled on the tin, and in the manual, but somewhere along the line its strayed a bit, and it seems rather than spend the time sorting it out, the definition is just changing to suit the least path of resistance.

[commandob]

nice post , but very true this happen alot in SWG , peeps cried nerf and they nerfed alot of clases into nothing look at it now , Guardian will whine about Paladins or sk now ans they will be nerfed too

[Lademoisel]

<DIV>Wouldn't it be nice if the game actually followed AD&D rules first edition. We would not have such broken classes, or the stupid any race can be any class. Everything would be on par with what it should be. Just my opinioin.  </DIV>

[Arsen]

<DIV>I think more than just a two line description of the class, you need to look at all the abilities of the class.  Scouts don't get heavy armor, they don't get shields, they don't get taunts (in fact they get reverse taunts) - basically they have no tanking abilities.  Monks/Bruisers don't get heavy armor, or high level shields, but they do get taunts and decent avoidance abilities.  Paladins/SKs get heavy armor and some taunts, but can't use the highest level shields.  Beserkers/Guardians get the heavy armor, the nice shields and quite a number of taunts.  I'm not saying the classes are currently balanced by any stretch, but the overall vision that SOE is putting forth makes sense when you look at the class abilities.  Beserkers are the only other class besides Guardians that can wear all of the heaviest armor equipment - that ability has to be balanced against the rest of the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly feel for all the beserkers out there who are now regretting their choice because they thought they were getting into a high DPS class.  These classifications were mostly out there if you dug enough, but they were certainly not clearly laid out from the beginning like Moorguad is doing now.  It really sounds like many Beserkers would have been better off with a monk/bruiser or a scout type class based on their playstyle <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Lut]

Berzerkers still fit my playstyle, I love the rush of a near death fight, the trouble is, i didnt realise that all my fights would be that way now, and its not because im a madman on fire hackin and slaying left and right.My origianl post was just a take on how the classes and the game was laid out in my mind, its a shame it hasnt turned out that way really. As for wearing plate? that was a big mistake, but deadlines and shedules for release makes me believe they took some stop-gap measures with the Berzerker class, thats becoming more glaring with the changes they are making.

[hau]

<DIV>Well as for the changes in patch i was dissapointed but now none of the taunts i have work, if i loose agro i can't get it back, I havent seen any adepts drop except 2 and neither was a taunt, however it seems scout, priest, and non war subclass adepts drop just fine ( perhaps Im unlucky ). I can't find adepts for a berserker ( again perhaps Im unlucky ). Did i mention taunts dont work so I cant hold agro. If i pull and someone casts a buff they get agro and I cant get it no matter what agro spell use. If my healer heals me cause I can't mitigate damage as good as a PoS gaurdian I cant get the mob(s) of the healer. I cant remember if I mentioned if taunts work or not. Basicly what Im saying I can live with no damage mitigation, I can live with being gimped on DPS cause Gaurdians cant't complain about fixing their class, but to reduce my tanking ability to blind luck over skill in game is the last straw. Now since our class is nothing more than a temper tantrum gaurdian I reckon its going to be the berserkers who fix our problem and in the process fix the cry baby gaurdians class a side result. My solution just eliminate the Gaurdian class and account holders restore our class the way it was and everyone else in the game will have fun. If SOE wont do that I wish they would either fix our taunting skills or give us and EQ1 style taunt that doesnt require power and increases in skill so we can at least look like we know how to play. I think im just going to delete my Berserker and just make a [Removed for Content] scout and name it MyBerserkerSsucks</DIV>

[Lut]

Please dont destroy whats supposed to be a constructive post, with something that is basically a complaint and an open invitation for flame's. I would rather this topic got swept away as the new topics arrive than it turn into yet another topic where people are arguing about what the berzerker class is.

[commandob]

<blockquote><hr>Arsenal wrote:<DIV>I think more than just a two line description of the class, you need to look at all the abilities of the class. Scouts don't get heavy armor, they don't get shields, they don't get taunts (in fact they get reverse taunts) - basically they have no tanking abilities. Monks/Bruisers don't get heavy armor, or high level shields, but they do get taunts and decent avoidance abilities. Paladins/SKs get heavy armor and some taunts, but can't use the highest level shields. Beserkers/Guardians get the heavy armor, the nice shields and quite a number of taunts. I'm not saying the classes are currently balanced by any stretch, but the overall vision that SOE is putting forth makes sense when you look at the class abilities. Beserkers are the only other class besides Guardians that can wear all of the heaviest armor equipment - that ability has to be balanced against the rest of the class.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I honestly feel for all the beserkers out there who are now regretting their choice because they thought they were getting into a high DPS class. These classifications were mostly out there if you dug enough, but they were certainly not clearly laid out from the beginning like Moorguad is doing now. It really sounds like many Beserkers would have been better off with a monk/bruiser or a scout type class based on their playstyle <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><hr></blockquote>first off i near what i was getting into , i played beta as a guardian loved it and a zerker too , i like my Zerker i know i can not tank as well as a guardian , im not the highest dps class i have an assassin for that , what a zerker is is this he is an Offencive tank we have lower damage Migration that a Guardian but higher damage output that simple , we now have a very mimial damage out put and 30% less damage migration then a guardian , I play as mostly 2nd tank to my mate Guardian , yes we tended to argo to much , but whay nerf or dps too , zerker is still a good class in my book but completely fooked up as in commamndo nerf style in SWG, if they whated to balance us why not just fix or Skill which were broken and too powerful in the argo states instead of nerfing us to uslessness

[Geothe]

<DIV>Just my point of view.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Entirely from the way the game is set up picture:  Beserkers should have realized that something wasn't working right when they had the highest DPS in the game.  Purely from the fact that they were a branch off of the Warrior path...  which is a heavy armor wearing, old school "tanking" path.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From the other side of things, Sony made a big error in naming this class Beserkers.  Old school beserkers are light armor wearing, low defense, crazy damage dealing people.  This doesn't fit into the "warrior" path what-so-ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, the I see two solutions that would make the most sense, so to speak.  </DIV> <DIV>1) Sony rename the class all together since what is currently is, truely has nothing two do with a Beserker genre class anyways.  (Yes, I know that this would -really- suck for you current beserkers and this is something that should have been fixed before release, but it would at least stop future players from getting the wrong impression like you guys did when you chose this class).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Rework the class story line.  Specifically dealing with the Quest to chose your Path as either a guardian or beserker.</DIV> <DIV>They could modify it for if you chose the Beserker path...  something along the lines of making the choice to regress in your armor selection and become the true masters of your weapons and dealing damage instead. (ie drop down to Medium or Light armor types... greatly reducing your AC and defensive abilities, but get your DPS increased a whole lot more) essentially, monks and bruisers would have more defense than you.. and you more DPS than them....  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically the story with the decision to chose the beserker or guardian path could go like:</DIV> <DIV>Do you wish to become a Guardian, and embrace your armor and give yourself to protect those around you?</DIV> <DIV>Do you wish to become a Beserker, and embrace your weapon and forgo your armor as it does nothing but slow you down in the heat of battle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[tarasl]

<DIV>Or how about actually designing the class to fit the description? Novel idea eh?</DIV>

[Nof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arsenal wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think more than just a two line description of the class, you need to look at all the abilities of the class.  Scouts don't get heavy armor, they don't get shields, they don't get taunts (in fact they get reverse taunts) - basically they have no tanking abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Your kidding right? Scouts weren't mean to be tanks, thats why they don't get what we get, they are NOT warriors, they are, god forbid, SCOUTS, they are supposed to be stealthy and solitary with a bow and a light weapon in the advanced party that sneaks into the woods and deals light damage to the outskirts of a large army, they are used for recon and assassination, NOT heavy fighting. This is what they are made for, they should in NO way be a heavy DPS class, especially not compared to a Berzerker! </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Berzerkers don't "have" to wear heavy armor, it just makes more sense logically, however in the book I got for the game it says we can't wear any armor heavier than plate, but the dev's changed that so that we can wear Vanguard, either way it doesn't matter WHAT armor we wear, I've seen assassins with a higher AC than me even, because in the end we don't have the sneaky abilities that the rogue has, and we don't have the damage avoidance and we don't have the defense options that the Guardians do, we TAKE damage, and now sadly we can't even deal out enough to make a difference, before the healers stressed their power limits trying to keep us healed, now its impossible to keep us healed. </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Scouts do MORE damage than us AND they STILL don't have to worry about tanking, so are you complaining because we get to Tank AND DPS?  Well I'd like to complain about Evac, Invisibility, and Playing Dead, because when things get Heavy I have no options except fight and die, or run and hope I can run to zone exit fast enough to keep them off of me.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Monks/Bruisers don't get heavy armor, or high level shields, but they do get taunts and decent avoidance abilities.  Paladins/SKs get heavy armor and some taunts, but can't use the highest level shields.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Heres a fix for that, make it so Zerkers can't use shields or make it so Paladins can. Yeah it sucks, but who cares, if your not using a two hander your not dealing as much damage as you could anyway. Monks shouldn't wear heavy armor anyway, they wear light robes and avoid conflict and damage, your monk has some serious problems if he's gleefully charging into a group of enemies no matter what fantasy genre you base it on. And in what fantasy genre have you EVER seen a monk use a shield? A Paladin should use a shield, but keep in mind his job is to stand back and pray or curse the enemies, or buff his party members, he shouldn't be tanking anyway.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beserkers/Guardians get the heavy armor, the nice shields and quite a number of taunts.  I'm not saying the classes are currently balanced by any stretch, but the overall vision that SOE is putting forth makes sense when you look at the class abilities.  Beserkers are the only other class besides Guardians that can wear all of the heaviest armor equipment - that ability has to be balanced against the rest of the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Again you have got to be kidding, they get all of these things because they were MEANT to be the tanks, the warriors standing at the front of the line taking all the damage, each dealt with it in a different way, the Berzerker by DEALING damage, and the Guardian by TAKING it, we take a serious hit to our HP that a Guardian can just ignore, we don't deal damage anymore so we're basically screwed. How would you like it if ALL armor got damaged when you got hit, so you had to repair it more often than just when you died. You should consider yourself lucky you don't have to ever repair your armor unless you die ten times, and since most classes don't take the damage themselves, they never have to worry about that, so again it would just target us.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly feel for all the beserkers out there who are now regretting their choice because they thought they were getting into a high DPS class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>We are regretting the fact that we PAYED to play a game where people like you are the voice of reason. Have you ever played AD&D on paper or any real fantasy fiction game? Have you read many books, both Fiction and Non and fantasy fiction that ever dealt with medieval fighting? Those of us who chose are class most likely have, when I played AD&D I played a Barbarian Berzerker, when I read fantasy fiction, which I own over 3000 fantasy fiction novels alone, my favorite characters are the Hammermen, the Fighters, the guys with the big [Removed for Content] weapons that run onto the field to die gloriously while mages stand back and do the dirty work and then teleport away. I always envisioned my EQ2 Berzerker like Druss The Legend, and I bet a lot of others did too. I don't regret the time I spent on my Berzerker, because I had a ton of fun, I'm just glad I had to stop playing the night of the Big Patch so I could move to Hawaii. I hope when I get back they've fixed some of these things or I'll most likely join my friends in WoW.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  These classifications were mostly out there if you dug enough, but they were certainly not clearly laid out from the beginning like Moorguad is doing now.  It really sounds like many Beserkers would have been better off with a monk/bruiser or a scout type class based on their playstyle <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Nofoa on <span class=date_text>01-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:44 AM</span>

[Geothe]

<DIV>Taraslar:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because having the best damage in the game, and having the best armor in the game, is -far- from balanced, what-so-ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't have the best of both worlds.... something has to give somewhere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geothe wrote:<BR> <DIV>Taraslar:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because having the best damage in the game, and having the best armor in the game, is -far- from balanced, what-so-ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't have the best of both worlds.... something has to give somewhere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You are SO missing the point. We may have good armor, but unlike the other classes, we TAKE damage. Yes, we can wear all sorts of fancy armor to look cool, but in the end our HP is going down, and going down FAST. The guardian can sit there and tank all day without having to worry about getting healed, his armor protects him from the damage and he can regen faster than they can deal it out. the Berzerkers actually TAKE the damage, requiring us to be healed or be dead! The only way to COUNTER us taking all that damage is DEALING damage, killing the monster before it kills us, and now we can't do that at all. We take the damage, but in the end the NPC damage is more than ours, and our healers just can't keep up.  I've see numerous assassins or SK's with more AC than I have, but they don't take the same DAMAGE that I do, especially because I have a 2h weapon and they have a shield.

[tarasl]

<DIV>Can have the armor chief wasn't suppose to have vanguard to begin with.</DIV>

[Lademoisel]

<DIV>I agree Nafoe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a level 35 Berserker and compared to my gaurdian friend of the same level I get beat down badly. Even when I parse both of our damage tables I am only ahead by 5 points maybe 10 and that's with all buffs on. I would gladly sacrifice vangaurd armor to have our damage back. So from what I can see is that guardians have a huge HP advantage and AC while still retaining to do nearly the same damage as berserkers. Makes no sense to me. I just wished they did things like in First Edition AD&D rules. It was so much easier. I am hopeful for the future however, maybe there will be change. </DIV>

[CherobylJ]

<DIV>Good first post, something rare here since the nerfs.  Thought provoking and calm.  Hope we see more of them.</DIV>

[reakshav]

<DIV>I kinda see a berserker more like a bruiser that uses swords and heavy weapons, light armor-- dps about the same as a bruiser-- Kinda like Conan the Barbarian.  Does need to mitagate as much damage as a guardian, have some mitagation skill and some avoidance skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>