riposte & weapon type

[Toxa]

<DIV>posting this as it's own thread, because people keep asking about weapon types but few people seem to understand WHY 2-hander is better, especially for berzerkers. So, maybe this will help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>_______</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>it was said that DPS is DPS and all types of weapons are the same, referring to 2-handed vs dual weild... this is true for the most part...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EXCEPT:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>the fewer swings you make, the less you get riposte'd.</STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>(this means you do less damage, and take more damage... all from being riposte'd more.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>the higher damage weapon you have, the higher damage riposte you do.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>(your weapon speed makes no difference when you riposte. So, if you have a high damage, slow weapon, your ripostes do much more damage, while your normal damage remains about the same as 2 compareable dual weild weapons)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so, for a berzerker, having the FURY skill, riposte is a significant factor in damage taken, and damage dished out. so a berzerker is significantly more effective in both tanking and DPS with a slower 2-handed weapon, than with 2 fast dual weilded weapons.</DIV></DIV>

[ClobberSaurus]

I think the other important fact on DW vs 2H is that while their average DPS may be equal, the variance of that DPS is not. Given the relatively small sample size of swings against an individual mob and their different variances, you can expect more consistent DPS per mob with DW. Over many mobs, DW and 2H w/ average to the same DPS, but with 2H, it is more likely to have a "good" or "bad" mob where you are significantly far from your average DPS. So my point is this, when fighting (maybe most importantly soloing) near your limits you may want to avoid the "bad" mob where higher 2H variance gives you a low DPS for that fight and you must flee instead of winning. It's up to you whether less riposte damage is worth higher variance. Over a good group session, I prefer 2H.

[Toxa]

<DIV>i doubt the variance makes much diff at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and you both do more damage, and take less damage, with and from riposte, with a 2hander.</DIV>

[Kaff]

<blockquote><hr>Toxaur wrote:<DIV><STRONG>the higher damage weapon you have, the higher damage riposte you do.</STRONG></DIV><DIV>(your weapon speed makes no difference when you riposte. So, if you have a high damage, slow weapon, your ripostes do much more damage, while your normal damage remains about the same as 2 compareable dual weild weapons)</DIV><hr></blockquote>This is incorrect in EQ2. All ripostes from the same quality/con weapon will do identical (or rather, similar within an identical range) damage. Try it sometime. You can get 80 point ripostes out of a 5-20 dual wield weapon because of it.It's done for the same reason combat art damage is not affected by your weapon's listed damage, as well as why there's no flat bonus, EQ1 "strength bonus" style -- they didn't want to invalidate heavy/slow weapons (as would happen if there were a flat bonus) or light/fast weapons (as would happen if riposte/combat art damage were dependant on the listed damage of the weapon).Also, I should point out that the only thing affected is the amount of damage YOU take. If something is going to riposte, say, 20% of your attacks..20% of 100 attacks in a one-minute time span (dual wielding 1.2 delay weapons, say a dagger or rapier -- hey, I'm a scout at heart) is gonna mean 20 riposte damages inflicted upon you. If each of your attacks averages 15 damage, that's 300 damage you lost to ripostes.20% of 25 attacks in a one-minute time span (2.4 delay, just to make numbers easy -- like I said, I'm a scout, so I don't know what two-handed weapon this could be off the top of my head) is going to mean 5 riposte damages inflicted upon you. If each of your attacks averages 60 damage (note, 2x15/1.2=60/2.4 so this is two weapon setups with identical dps, which I've found to be a pretty reasonable assumption browsing the market), you lost 300 damage to your opponent's ripostes.So, we see that damage lost due to being riposted is identical in both situations. However, you're correct that you'll take more damage FROM ripostes with a faster-hitting setup.

[Toxa]

<DIV>ah ok, i didn't know that EQ2 evened the weapon types THAT much. If this is true, then i was wrong. but irregardless, a 2handed weapon is still better for anyone who tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>although the 80dmg riposte with a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] knife is just lame, i see why they did it. It's nice that, for the most part, you can pick any weapon type you want and still be nearly the same effectiveness. No more requiring raid tanks to use 2 18 delay proccing weapons like in EQ1. No more doing less damage by using 2-handers either.</DIV>

[LumpyD]

<DIV> <DIV><STRONG>the fewer swings you make, the less you get riposte'd.</STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>(this means you do less damage, and take more damage... all from being riposte'd more.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That makes no sense. (the argument below the original sentence. You do less damage by being riposted less? Huh? Take more damage? HUH? You are being riposted LESS, less ripostes = you take less damage. I think you just got your wording messed up or something there... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Dirtbea]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LumpyDoo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>the fewer swings you make, the less you get riposte'd.</STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>(this means you do less damage, and take more damage... all from being riposte'd more.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That makes no sense. (the argument below the original sentence. You do less damage by being riposted less? Huh? Take more damage? HUH? You are being riposted LESS, less ripostes = you take less damage. I think you just got your wording messed up or something there... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Read Kaffi's post again.  He didn't accidentally use the wrong terms.  Apparently a riposte includes an interrupt that blocks an attack.<BR>

[LumpyD]

<DIV>"so, for a berzerker, having the FURY skill, riposte is a significant factor in damage taken, and damage dished out. so a berzerker is significantly more effective in both tanking and DPS with a slower 2-handed weapon, than with 2 fast dual weilded weapons."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That makes sense and is how I see it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What interrupt? Did I miss part of the post.. </DIV>

[RufusDeMar]

<DIV>what about parry?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when you dual wield, can you parry with each weapon? Effectively doubling your parry ability?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Luvie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2> <HR> Toxaur wrote:<BR></FONT> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG>the fewer swings you make, the less you get riposte'd.</STRONG> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>(this means you do less damage, and take more damage... all from being riposte'd more.)</FONT></DIV></DIV><BR><FONT size=2> <HR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I'm having some problems following you on this one.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>From my understanding, each time you attack, your enemy, it has a change to riposte.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>If you have a slow but heavy hitting two-handed weapon, you will take less damage from enemy riposte's compared to dual wielding</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>When you have a weapon twice as fast as the single slow two-handed weapon what does half the damage (dual wield) you will have a higher change of taking more enemy riposte damage because you need to hit at least twice (both weapons need to hit) to do equal damage as one single hit from the slower two-hander. What results you give two chances to get riposte attacks back.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>If you ment what I said, then you have an odd way of saying it. Other wise, i'm not following you what I have quoted above.</FONT></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Luviera on <span class=date_text>01-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:19 AM</span>

[Toxa]

<DIV>sorry sorry i got my wording messed up... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the slower you swing, the less swings you make in a fight, the less you get riposte'd, and the less damage you take. and since you get ripost'ed less you also do more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and yes, Fury is a large factor in this, even moreso if you keep it active every fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ripley: no, you dont parry more with 2 weapons. you dont parry or riposte more or less with a 2-hander or dual weild. however, you GET riposte'd and parried less with a slower weapon.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Toxaur on <span class=date_text>01-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

[Dirtbea]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toxaur wrote:<BR> <DIV>sorry sorry i got my wording messed up... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the slower you swing, the less swings you make in a fight, the less you get riposte'd, and the less damage you take. and since you get ripost'ed less you also do more damage.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The part people are asking about is the "since you get ripost'ed less you also do more damage."  You might want to explain why that is. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Toxa]

<DIV>because riposte is a parry + counterattack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the parry essentially blocks your hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so the less you get riposte'd or parried, the more damage you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the less you get riposte'd, the less damage is done to you.</DIV>

[LumpyD]

<DIV>Your engrish was not so good, but now I get what you mean. </DIV>

[Monkeyfi]

<DIV>So, if a riposte <EM><STRONG>by the player </STRONG></EM>results in a set, Combat Art-like, range of damage being done to the mob...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A riposte <STRONG><EM>against the player</EM></STRONG> results in standard damage consistent with their weapon's range of damage...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>then there is really no difference between 2H and DW.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS is DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Period.</DIV>

[Toxa]

<DIV>no Monkeyfist...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>because...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DW means many more hits per fight. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>more hits = more ripostes <STRONG>against</STRONG> the player.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>more ripostes <STRONG>against</STRONG> the player</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>means</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>more damage is done to the player</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>than</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>using a slower, 2-handed weapon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>most people understand this concept, but if you dont understand it by now i cannot help you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just trying to help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kaff]

<blockquote><hr>Dirtbeard wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>LumpyDoo wrote:<BR><DIV><DIV><STRONG>the fewer swings you make, the less you get riposte'd.</STRONG> </DIV><DIV>(this means you do less damage, and take more damage... all from being riposte'd more.)</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That makes no sense. (the argument below the original sentence. You do less damage by being riposted less? Huh? Take more damage? HUH? You are being riposted LESS, less ripostes = you take less damage. I think you just got your wording messed up or something there... </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Read Kaffi's post again. He didn't accidentally use the wrong terms. Apparently a riposte includes an interrupt that blocks an attack.<BR><hr></blockquote>Correct -- a riposte is returning an attack in the opening created by a parry. So when you get riposted in EQ or EQ2, the line that says "You try to hit a gnoll, but a gnoll ripostes!" is essentially the same as "You try to hit a gnoll, but a gnoll parries!", except the gnoll gets a free attack the next line out of turn.

[asteldian]

<DIV>Maybe ive had bad luck, but yet to see my reckless counter (Fury) hit any harder with DW than  with my 2her.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But yes, you do get riposted and parried against more with DW, though i am pretty sure its not as often as you think,  believe they made an effort to minimise the difference in ripostes and parries just like they did with procs (2hers proc pretty much as often as DW despite procs only able to occur from a swing, in fact i believe atm 2hers actually proc a tiny bit more)</DIV>

[Jb]

<DIV>Reckless counter is the only art who's damage is affected by the quality of your weapon. The damage range is the same as that of a regular riposte for that weapon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As someone pointed out, riposte damage (and therefore reckless counter damage) is based on the quality (con or level, however you choose to call it) of the weapon. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While most arts do not vary in damage based on your weapon, they are affected by your weapon skill. If you equip, say, a crushing weapon and your crushing skill is behind, your arts will have a much lower chance to hit due to your lack of skill with that weapon. I found this out the hard way. Is it ever humiliating to run from a green solo mob as a berserker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldnt be all that worried about getting riposted. Since the mob has a mathematical chance of riposting each blow, it will riposte the same percentage over time leaving you with the same dps overall.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for damage taken, between all your arts and aoe's you have a lot more attacks to worry about geting riposted than your choice of 2h or dw.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still, personally I use a 2.0 delay hammer and a tower shield when MT. An edge is always an edge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, if you are not mt, you had better be behind the mob in the first place for a nice steady 0 ripostes a night.</DIV>

[ClobberSaurus]

<blockquote><hr>asteldian wrote:<DIV>But yes, you do get riposted and parried against more with DW, though i am pretty sure its not as often as you think, believe they made an effort to minimise the difference in ripostes and parries just like they did with procs (2hers proc pretty much as often as DW despite procs only able to occur from a swing, in fact i believe atm 2hers actually proc a tiny bit more)</DIV><hr></blockquote>This is very interesting to learn that DW and 2H proc equally. I was about to post that perhaps that was another counter-balance. Can you point towards any posts where I can learn more?

[Kaff]

<blockquote><hr>ClobberSaurus wrote:<blockquote><hr>asteldian wrote:<DIV>But yes, you do get riposted and parried against more with DW, though i am pretty sure its not as often as you think, believe they made an effort to minimise the difference in ripostes and parries just like they did with procs (2hers proc pretty much as often as DW despite procs only able to occur from a swing, in fact i believe atm 2hers actually proc a tiny bit more)</DIV><hr></blockquote>This is very interesting to learn that DW and 2H proc equally. I was about to post that perhaps that was another counter-balance. Can you point towards any posts where I can learn more?<hr></blockquote>I'd point you to the scout forums and various poison posts, through which its become pretty evident to the scout community that one-handers and dual wield have similar poison proc rates, favoring one-handers if anything.For the record, in EQ1, proc rates were scaled according to weapon delay, as well.

[Toxa]

<DIV> <DIV><EM>I wouldnt be all that worried about getting riposted. Since the mob has a mathematical chance of riposting each blow, it will riposte the same percentage over time leaving you with the same dps overall.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>twice as many ripostes against you. DPS is the same, because it's based on % chance of riposte, but you get about twice as many ripostes against you based on weapon delay. so you take more damage. which is bad for a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why do you think Fury is so cool?</DIV></DIV>

[Pu]

<DIV>There is one more reason 2 hander is better then dual weild : Spaming skills.  If you are chain casting your skills and leave just a small amount of time before starting a new skill (like 0.5 second) you can get a swing in from your 2 hander.  If your using a high dmg/high delay weapon this can mean alot more damage then just DWing.</DIV>

[Monkeyfi]

<DIV>Toxaur,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wrote, "If . . .a riposte <STRONG><EM>against the player</EM></STRONG> results in standard damage consistent with their weapon's range of damage... <DIV>then there is really no difference between 2H and DW."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Key part is, "Standard damage consistent with their weapon's range of damage."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, if I get riposted 10 times wielding a DW weapon with a damage range of 10-30, it is exactly the same as being riposted 5 times wielding a 2H weapon with a damage range of 20-60.  So, yes, you get riposted twice as much, but if they only do their normal damage rather than combat art damage, you will be taking half as much damage.  It all pretty much evens out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, yet again, DPS is DPS.</DIV></DIV>

[Toxa]

<DIV>a riposte by a mob is the same damage to the player no matter what weapon, is it not?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so 5 ripostes vs a 2hander at 30-60 dmg</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and 10 ripostes vs a dual weild at 30-60 dmg</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the mob hits for the same amount of damage no matter what weapon he ripostes, right? If not, please prove it. With proof, i'll admit if i'm wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toxaur wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><EM>I wouldnt be all that worried about getting riposted. Since the mob has a mathematical chance of riposting each blow, it will riposte the same percentage over time leaving you with the same dps overall.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>twice as many ripostes against you. DPS is the same, because it's based on % chance of riposte, but you get about twice as many ripostes against you based on weapon delay. so you take more damage. which is bad for a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why do you think Fury is so cool?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>.......</P> <P>I point you to the next line of my post following that quote</P> <P>"As for damage taken, between all your arts and aoe's you have a lot more attacks to worry about geting riposted than your choice of 2h or dw."</P> <P>Yes fury is awesome. It also gives you plenty of attacks that the mob can riposte. Does that mean you shouldn't use it before a really tough multi mob pull? Well, maybe...</P> <P>Furious onslought, berserker barrage, etc you hit those on a 8 mob pull that's 8 targets to hit. 8 chances to riposte. While bloodrage no longer procs off itself it has a chance to proc from each individual hit of another aoe attack by the way. Get a proc theres another 8 riposte chances.</P> <P>Yes you are right you take more damage from getting riposted with lower delay/dual wield weapons. If I ever stated that was false then enlighten me and point me to it so I can remove that comment. I'm just playing devil's advocate and saying it does not make that huge a difference. Many guardians use a 1.0 delay weapon to maximise the effects of hold the line regardless of the extra ripostes. My point is that with a 2 delay hammer two thirds of my attacks come from combat arts not auto attack. Dual wield would about even the numbers. </P> <P>Lets face it, If you are so worried about taking an extra riposte for about the auto attack damage of the monster you are fighting per encounter, why are you debating DW vs 2H in the first place instead of using a 1h and shield so you can block some of those devastating blows, not to mention take less damage from each hit thanks to the extra ac?</P> <P>And if you are in DPS mode rather than the mt, as I have pointed out before, you should be behind the monster in the first place where it can not parry or riposte you, making ripostes a null factor in weapon choice. The only person that should ever be face to face with an engaged mob is the mt.</P> <P> </P> <P>-Edit -</P> <DIV>Yes damage taken by you when you are riposted is the same regardless of your weapon, you would take 150-300 dmg in the first case, 300-600 in the latter.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jbex on <span class=date_text>01-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:38 PM</span>

[Toxa]

<DIV>never said i was worried man.  Just trying to make my point that you take more damage from riposte's with dual wield. And if you are chain pulling, you wont have the power to spam combat arts anyways.  But your comment about taking more damage by using fury is just obscene... Fury is adding riposte's in YOUR benefit. I have never noticed being riposte'd with combat arts anyways, but i'll check the parser next time i use it.</DIV>

[Jb]

<DIV>"never said i was worried man.  Just trying to make my point that you take more damage from riposte's with dual wield"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have maid your point. If you read carefully I have never stated otherwise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"But your comment about taking more damage by using fury is just obscene... Fury is adding riposte's in YOUR benefit. I have never noticed being riposte'd with combat arts anyways, but i'll check the parser next time i use it."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1104717599)[Sun Jan 02 17:59:59 2005] a grassland beetle tries to crush YOU with Crushing Blow, but YOU riposte.<BR>(1104717599)[Sun Jan 02 17:59:59 2005] YOU hit a grassland beetle for 69 points of crushing damage.<BR></DIV> <DIV>Actually combat arts can be riposted just like anything else. Yes Fury adds a riposte in your benefit. However, your reckless counter, just like a regular riposte you make, can be riposted back at you by the mob. The only damage we can deal as berserkers that I am aware of that can not be riposted is the consecutive ticks of a damage over time art (the initial hit can still be riposted but if that lands the following ticks are sure damage).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sincle reckless counters go off much more often than ripostes, especially when pulling large groups, you are bound to get a few on a big pull which, while doing damage, give the mobs extra chances to riposte against you just like using dual wield over a zweihander.</DIV>