Tested Value of Shields

[AslaanH]

<DIV>Ello all, 27th Zerker here nearin 28th! As a Berserker I have a really hard time seeing us with shields, it does not fit the image of a zerker imo. We are dps, were the crazed warriors and as such I preffer duel wield or ever a 2hander. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My question is, has anyone done any solid testing showing if a shield really effects your tanking enough to warrant the large hit in DPS using duel wield + zerking. I really dun want to use a shield and so far I tank just fine, and im often complimented on my tanking and damge output...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if anyone has any actual testing done, please share. I knows theres alot of speculation and what people think...but we need some cold hard facts laid before us. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Paladyr9]

I tested it.2h weapons left me with the least amount of healthDW left me with *slightly* less health than with 1h+shieldI was using two chickenbanes which give me a +4 bonus to agi. Seems to make the enemy miss a lot more which almost makes up for not having a shield.

[Moongla]

<DIV>No numbers here, but I use a shield when I solo and when I'm main tank (always). If I solo a yellow I lose about 15%-20% health with shield, 30%-40% without one (usually, using 4 styles repeatedly. Depends on misses and Hero's Armor from HO etc.). The important fact is, its noticable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didnt use shield till 23, when I heard for the first time that I didnt soak the damage that well (I replaced a lvl 25 shadowknight). That hurt my pride, and I went to buy a shield afterwards - and im glad I did. Another 150-200 AC do help in my experience.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Moonglade on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:09 PM</span>

[They]

<DIV>As you get higher in level the 2handers will become much better and have much more damage output. At this moment I'm using a Treebane which puts out normally around 90-140dmg a hit. Add into that some of my skills which hit for 100-160 (plus Master 1 Berserker Barrage which hits for around 350-480dmg.) Myself I won't use Dual Wield or Shields because with my 2handers I put out way more damage and I have some great backup healing.</DIV>

[Flor]

<DIV>Ok, i gotta ask.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where do we get this 2h you using?</DIV>

[Tessi]

<DIV>From what I've seen, weapon choice dosen't effect damage from specials, and that's where most damage comes from. In that light, shields seem to have gained value in my eyes. Say normal melee accounts for 20% of the damage you do, and using a shield cuts your melee damage by half, so perhaps you lose 10% total damage but gain a large amount of AC that might make more than a 10% difference in amount of hits/damage taken. Anyone with more experience have anything to say about this? I'm not even a berserker yet, so I doubt my low level weapons equate well to 20-30+ playing.</DIV>

[They]

<DIV>The Treebane is recieved for finishing the Deathfist Citadel access in Zek, The Orcish Wastes. You talk to a Iksar Captain near Moog the Overlord and he gives you the weapon. He says something about taking your key, but in the end he goes sike! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Its a great weapon until we can get some of the higher ones in the Tier 5 zones like Feerrott/Cazic Thule and Everfrost/Permafrost. But seriously I won't use a shield unless I really have to. I get enough DPS out of my 2hander to make it so I beat the heck outta Dual Wields (even done the tests on them and I always come out with more HP using the 2hander on Solos.)</DIV>

[LumpyD]

<DIV>Has anyone else found that a SLOW 2-hander is really nice when you have the ability to go berzerk very frequently? (I.E. Main tanking or have Bloodlust up). </DIV>

[Grimve]

<DIV><EM>Say normal melee accounts for 20% of the damage you do, and using a shield cuts your melee damage by half</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>I can say with certainty that shields do not even come close to cutting melee damage in half.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still, your point is valid. The damage from special attacks is independent of the weapon wielded--Furious Onslaught or any other special will hit for the same amount of damage with a dual wield dagger or sword and board as it would with a big ole 2h halberd. With so much damage being essentially weapon-independent, shields become more attractive. Unfortunately shields don't seem to help much--they do help some of course, but then again a bit more damage helps some also (remember, killing your target faster is the ultimate damage mitigation: mobs can't hit back after they die).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The difference in efficiency is small enough that the question can only be solved by parsing log data.</DIV>

[Grimve]

<DIV><EM>Has anyone else found that a SLOW 2-hander is really nice when you have the ability to go berzerk very frequently? (I.E. Main tanking or have Bloodlust up).</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>Berserk is haste (among other things), and EQ haste is a percentage. Bottom line, it will increase the DPS of fast weapons by the same percent as slow weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do feel that slow two-handers generate less hate than dual wield. If I am not the main tank but using Bloodlust anyway (which I probably shouldn't but oh well), my two-hander seems far less likely to draw unwanted aggro than my dual weapons.</DIV>

[LumpyD]

<DIV>Well, haste may be a %, but the real question must then be, is there a haste cap? If there is a haste cap, then your statement is mostly, but not 100% true. </DIV>

[Bamk]

<DIV>Yup, in EQ1, there was a minimum delay, so it didn't pay to use a weapon with delay lower than 19 if you had max haste.  I wonder if they're using the same system in EQ2.</DIV>

[KeilAval]

<DIV>Way back in the day when i played AD&D in High school i had an awsome dwarf berserker who used a warhammer and a shield. it was great to bash heads in with my hammer and shield. Would love to recreate that here but it seems the shield bashes, i beleive there are 2, just dont seem good enough. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing i'm starting to see in these MMO games is that there are alot of people not playing a character but just playing the game. What i mean by that is everyone wants the best of everyhitng, like right now the question being whats better 2H or DW. Before you know it we have an army of all the same berserkers running around. Same armor and weaopn. Its hard to be indivually seprate in these games. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would seem that all 3 styles would have a benefit. :smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sword and shield Average dam speed and ac</DIV> <DIV>DW fast attacks low dam</DIV> <DIV>2H slow attacks high dam. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if you take 2 of players exactly the same  equipment except give one a 2H and the other a 1H and shield, i believe that it should come down to the last blow without using specials.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take any 2 of the 3 and they should practically go down together fighting each other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Myself right now i prefer the DW because you get to double up on stat bonuses. I would use a shield if the bashes were a bit more useful :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And ofcourse this IMO :smileywink:</DIV>

[Tessi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grimveld wrote:<BR> <DIV><EM>Say normal melee accounts for 20% of the damage you do, and using a shield cuts your melee damage by half</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>I can say with certainty that shields do not even come close to cutting melee damage in half.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Oops. Bad me. I should have been clearer... that what happens when I post at work! What I intended, was that perhaps when you use a shield, the damage you deal is cut in half. I know this is inaccurate, as many rogues (my main profession, atm) have done tests showing dual wield does about 125% damage compared to sword/shield. But, you understood what I was getting at anyways. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After doing more reading and thinking, it seems one thing berserkers do well is attack fast, with that berserk haste buff. The haste buff won't effect the cooldown timers on specials, so this mainly comes into play on the autoattack. So, my original presumption might be wrong while we are under the effect of berserk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as someone else said, if we do all the logs and parsers and whatnot, perhaps someday it'll get to the point where all berserkers are the same, cause one mode of operation is just more efficient than the rest based on the numbers game. That's not what I want to see at all... honestly, I love that berserksers vary so much, from dual wield to sword and board to two-handers. Myself, I'm lovin my greatsword! It's about the style, though I'll probably swap over to a good shield in my groups if I find I need teh defense or stat boost.</DIV>

[13th Warri]

A shield is a Healers best friend.Rule of thumb I go by, is that when grouped, and if you are the main tank, equip yourself a one handed weapon and shield.The healers will thank you for it

[Manopow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 13th Warrior wrote:<BR>A shield is a Healers best friend.<BR><BR>Rule of thumb I go by, is that when grouped, and if you are the main tank, equip yourself a one handed weapon and shield.<BR><BR>The healers will thank you for it<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Sword and board, that puts you in the tank mode, ok.  BUT what if your group is light on the DPS side?.. then you need to put down that board and kick out the dmg a little son. You have the power.</P> <P> </P>

[Zh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 13th Warrior wrote:<BR>A shield is a Healers best friend.<BR><BR>Rule of thumb I go by, is that when grouped, and if you are the main tank, equip yourself a one handed weapon and shield.<BR><BR>The healers will thank you for it<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>My berserker is my primary, but I have a twink cleric...what I've noticed....</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker without shield - takes more damage, but fights end quicker</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Guardian/SK/Pal with a shield - takes less healing, but fights last longer</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Basically I end up having to spend about the same ammount of power over the course of the fight, it all seems to balance out in the end, spam a bunch of heals real quick or cast more heals over a longer period of time.  Personally I'd rather the fights be over quicker because that means faster pulls and thus more XP.....not to mention the shorter the fight the less chance for adds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Granted my healer is lower level, things may change has he gets higher, but for now I'd prefer weapon power over shield power, both as a healer and as a zerker.</FONT></DIV>

[Grimgo]

<DIV>Grim been MT'ing alot.. ma armur not so gud az i cant seem tu get anybudy tu Edgewatur tu halp wid AQ4 an muny ids alwaz tight..  Grim almos hav tu use a shield rite now jus tu raze ma AC up tu da point i don't get smushed tu fast.. Da ting ids, grim holds agro.. was fightin las nite.. engaged a set of 4 mobs den repop landed on use wif 4 moor.. got all 8 mobs on grim will bof heelers did der ting an chantur locked down wat he cud.. Dey wur orange con mobs tu Grim in Varsoon.. if grim was not wurkin wif da shield grim wud hab been paste.. As it was, no deths, tight an fun fight.. killed da last mob wif only 53hps left an party all outta mana.. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grim wud luv tu be DPS guy once in a while but it jus nevar ends up dat way.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/drool</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grimgore Bloodbath</DIV> <DIV>27th lvl Ogar Zurkur of Innothule</DIV> <DIV>Dread</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jb]

<DIV>The parses I've done usually put me around 35-40% dmg from auto attacks in group combat. I expect that to drop more and more as I get more aoe attacks however. Thats in a full balanced group with sword and board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I do feel that slow two-handers generate less hate than dual wield. If I am not the main tank but using Bloodlust anyway (which I probably shouldn't but oh well), my two-hander seems far less likely to draw unwanted aggro than my dual weapons."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2handers dont generate less hate than dual wielding. Bloodlust procs generate the agro you speak of. With a 3.7(2.6 hasted) delay two hander you get 23 procs per minute. Dual wielding 1.2 (0.84 hasted, hit every 0.42 since 2 weaps) delay weapons you get 142.86 ppm of bloodlust. There's the aggro difference you're seeing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ac from a shield, while nice, is not the core benefit of a shield. The main benefit is that when you equip a shield you gain the ability to BLOCK incoming blows. Now every time you are supposed to take damage you not only get a parry check, you get a block check as well. Riposte is a little different i'm yet to do any testing but it seems as if you need a successful parry before a riposte check is made.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get a proper 1handed weapon and you should still do 75% or more auto attack damage with sword and board as you do 2handed. If you're worried about ripostes (as you should be when mt'in) get a 2 delay 1h.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line?</DIV> <DIV>If you're grouped with a cleric and 4 dps, fighting oj double ups, go sword and board.</DIV> <DIV>If it's you a healer and a guardian, fighting blues, break out the two hander</DIV> <DIV>If it's you cler dru and 3 aoe happy mages, break out the dual wield for bloodlust agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anything inbetween use your judgement. What role does the group need filled. Keep all 3 setups up to date and in a bag. You can even switch to a shield for the pull and once a few mobs drop, or if you have a chanter when cc is done, go ahead and break out your beloved 2hander. Watch the healers mana, if he starts getting below half and theres more things to kill, you may want to break out that shield. Cleric out of mana? guardian at 20% hp? intervene, bloodlust, break out the shield, and hunker down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no single best setup for every situation, but a good shield will always have a place in my inventory.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[LumpyD]

<DIV>I found a 2.7 Delay attunable weapon called Tideripper on the market. It's so perfect for MT duty.... (it's OJ at lvl 37)</DIV>

[MondaynSilvaCor]

<DIV>in my experiences so far ive found that using a tower shield with nearly +300ac really helps my tanking skill out a whole lot more then when i used a 2h sword or dual wield, less ripostes, more blocking, more AC, only seems naturual that it would be beneficial. Grant it, it's not my idea of a berserker, I'de much rather be dual wielding large swords. But for when you are tanking things in a group that are 6+ levels over you, it's a god sent. </DIV>

[Spaceweed]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AslaanHVK wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ello all, 27th Zerker here nearin 28th! As a Berserker I have a really hard time seeing us with shields, it does not fit the image of a zerker imo. We are dps, were the crazed warriors and as such I preffer duel wield or ever a 2hander. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My question is, has anyone done any solid testing showing if a shield really effects your tanking enough to warrant the large hit in DPS using duel wield + zerking. I really dun want to use a shield and so far I tank just fine, and im often complimented on my tanking and damge output...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if anyone has any actual testing done, please share. I knows theres alot of speculation and what people think...but we need some cold hard facts laid before us. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>As you can see from the replies, it is argumentative to say which is best out of the three.  Personally, sword and board should be used in a full grp, as if the group is balanced correctly, the dps should take the mob(s) down fast enough, without putting the healer(s) under undue pressure.</P> <P>Always have an option.  I keep a shield/1h/2h with me at all times.</P> <P>Differences of opinion in a thread like this are very good = game is pretty well balanced <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Toxa]

<DIV>quote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>One thing i'm starting to see in these MMO games is that there are alot of people not playing a character but just playing the game. What i mean by that is everyone wants the best of everyhitng, like right now the question being whats better 2H or DW. Before you know it we have an army of all the same berserkers running around. Same armor and weaopn. Its hard to be indivually seprate in these games.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am the only berzerker on Najena, that i have known to use a 2-hander, let alone using a Halberd.  However, most people compliment me on how cool or big it is. in fact, i have yet to see ANYONE besides me on Najena server use a polearm or any 2-hander other than a 2-handed sword.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Toxaur on <SPAN class=date_text>12-24-2004</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Toxaur on <SPAN class=date_text>12-24-2004</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:58 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Toxaur on <SPAN class=date_text>12-24-2004</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:59 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Toxaur on <span class=date_text>12-24-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 PM</span>

[Adewale]

"Yup, in EQ1, there was a minimum delay, so it didn't pay to use a weapon with delay lower than 19 if you had max haste. I wonder if they're using the same system in EQ2."Ugh, and this is a great example of how hard it is to trust any information that you don't get yourself. This simply isn't true. The only reason people thought there was a min delay was because log parsers weren't accurate enough.