no upgrade for us but one for brawler?

[JNewby]

<DIV>ok so brawler types got a 5% boost in thier defensive stance mit while guardians the "king of mit" or whatever do not or any oteh alpte tank for that matter.. it is holey unfair to give them a boost and yet leave us hanging.. especially since we are supopst to be the mit tanks.. even so maybe we should get some sort of buff to make up for this.. I do not know anyhing about brawlers tanking situation.. but it woudl appear to me that they would have mit clsoe to the cap and by cap I mean where mit becomes holey worthless due to scaling..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[JimmyMa]

<div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div>I do not know anyhing about brawlers tanking situation.. but it woudl appear to me that they would have mit clsoe to the cap and by cap I mean where mit becomes holey worthless due to scaling..</div> <hr></blockquote>And so you want more MIT as a guardian?Hell, I am fine with my mitigation situation, extra resists or hit points would be nice, but there are plenty of places to pick that up now.</div>

[Will.]

Brawlers are getting +20% mit off pajamas, ie leather. We get +15% off plate. For instance hypothetical fabled leather piece has 300 mit, +20% it's 360. What's the mit on your crappiest piece of armor? 450? 500? Try this experiment, swap your favorite brawler into the MT group and let him get comfy. Make sure he thinks he's going to be tanking (I know, it's cruel) then check his mit. I'd be surprised if it were 4500. Now compare that (and avoidance, let's be fair) to your regular MT and let us know how they stack up. I'd be surprised if the brawler's avoidance advantage was anywhere near the plate tank's mit advantage. -Will <div></div>

[Yimway]

Last week when KoS epics were broken we experimented with a Bruiser MT.  Using a paladin in group with his additional mitigation transference we did get the Bruiser over 4500 mitigation, and avoidance was stacked way up.  Cause the auto attack dammage was so High, this worked with limmited success.The longer spacing between hits allowed for more ward casts to land.  Honestly, the Bruiser stood up in labs better than our Guards for that run.  I suspect however, now that the KoS epics are 'fixed' that would no longer be the case.<div></div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yimway wrote:<BR>Last week when KoS epics were broken we experimented with a Bruiser MT.  Using a paladin in group with his additional mitigation transference we did get the Bruiser over 4500 mitigation, and avoidance was stacked way up.  Cause the auto attack dammage was so High, this worked with limmited success.<BR><BR>The longer spacing between hits allowed for more ward casts to land.  Honestly, the Bruiser stood up in labs better than our Guards for that run.  I suspect however, now that the KoS epics are 'fixed' that would no longer be the case.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>being how mit works now u only need I think it is around 4500 and u esentially have the same mit as a guardian.. my understanding is aviodance is working the same way.. however even so giveing brawlers 20% and us 15% is hardly fair sure the end result might yield the same mit.. but our only 1 huge advantage is the fact we wear plate.. and while that has undergone alot of changes I woudl say.. it is annyoing from my perspective taht they dont do a straight percentage if they aer doing that.. why bother with these percentages if they are not equal? otherwise u should jsut give us a flat number.. or you should give us alll teh same percentage and allow plate tanks to use their natural only advantage of having plate! I mean we arent getting an extra avoidance buff due to the fact that plate makes our avoidance all bad.</P> <P> </P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<font color="#ffff00">we arent getting an extra avoidance buff</font>You did, after a fashion. Block is uncontested. What is that with a fabled tower shield? 20%+? Adornments?Brawlers don't get shields, and their defensive stance (as of the update) gives a whopping 12% uncontested.So as it stands.. plate tanks have higher mitigation (about 10%+ higher in the same buffs), and 10%+ more uncontested avoidance.Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just saying the facts as they stand right now.<div></div>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>we arent getting an extra avoidance buff</FONT><BR><BR>You did, after a fashion. Block is uncontested. What is that with a fabled tower shield? 20%+? Adornments?<BR><BR>Brawlers don't get shields, and their defensive stance (as of the update) gives a whopping 12% uncontested.<BR><BR><BR>So as it stands.. plate tanks have higher mitigation (about 10%+ higher in the same buffs), and 10%+ more uncontested avoidance.<BR><BR><BR>Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just saying the facts as they stand right now.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>19.3% frontal 90degree only and thats assuming a warrior is using a towershield and not a buckler which is 6.5% ....vrs 12% 360 uncontested ..so by my maths thats a -7% on a towershield user and a +5.5% on a warrior using stam line ....doesnt seem quite so bad now does it</P> <P>and i dont care what adornments there are out there i DONT use +to block chance ..so you get a -7.3% on my 90degree frontal block chance which is still modified by the mobs level and not a 100% contested roll as you whiny [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] brawlers like to make it out to be</P> <P>as for miti a brawler at 4.5k is about 55% absorbtion ...with the permanant 1k miti from the wardens cure line thats 5.5k miti with no short term buffs factored in ..thats 60% absorbtion and over 70% avoidence so take your crying [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] elsewhere because it dont wash with people who have seen the hard facts of the matter</P> <P>you think youve been nerfed ..i lost 22% damage absorbtion ..even at 7k in sitting at 64.8% and a pajama tank at 5.5k is 60% ..[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing cry some more ...you just got  A MASSIVE boost in raid survivability.</P> <P>or warriors just got a massive nerf ...im used to being at 80% absorb vrs orange cons ..with a standing miti off 7.3k pre eof ..now im lucky to be breaking 60% vrs yellow74's  so ..guess we could cry and moan about that ...how ever ive yet to see one warrior post complaining about there 20% absorbtion lost so far.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:39 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>11-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:55 PM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<div></div><font color="#ffff00">thats assuming a warrior is using a towershield and not a buckler which is 6.5%</font>Am I wrong to assume a Warrior that wants to MT would use the best shield possible? Try and get the highest avoidance possible (especially now that it's uncontested)? All the Guardians and Zerkers in my guild, and the guilds I raid with are using tower shields...<font color="#ffff00">vrs 12% 360 uncontested ..so by my maths thats a -7% on a towershield user and a +5.5% on a warrior using stam line ....doesnt seem quite so bad now does it</font>You find me an Epic that does 1/4 the damage per hit and splits his attacks to the other 3 quadrants, and I'll eat my words.<font color="#ffff00">i dont care what adornments there are out there i DONT use +to block chance</font>Then that's you. A plate tank that wants to get as much as possible has those at his disposal. Just because you don't want to use them doesn't mean they don't exist for those that want to pump up their Raid MT ability. It's something you CAN use.<font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">even at 7k in sitting at 64.8% and a pajama tank at 5.5k is 60%</font>My zerker can get to 6k self buffed with temporary buffs. And that's without fabled gear from DT or any of the new EoF stuff. With others buffing, I've seen it over 8k and that's not fully fabled. In comparison, my Bruiser in comparable gear (good, but not DT fabled or whatnot), has about 3200 with temporary buffs. Still has ~3k difference in mitigation.Hence why I'm saying, even with decreasing values, it's still around a ~10% difference.I'm not here crying or whining. I read all the boards because I have a character in nearly all of them. I don't normally post in every board. When I saw the line I quoted in my first post, I thought I'd just remind you guys what Warriors got with their Shields, and how it's currently better than what Brawlers can do. A 5% increase to armor mitigation on leather armor isn't going to intrude on the warriors mitigation, it ended up being less than 1% net benefit for any tanking geared brawler anyways...And Easternking, I'm not on some crusade to nerf warriors or overpower brawlers. I'm not personally attacking you by asking anything I asked for in the various other posts I made (that have nothing to do with this thread, so I'd be happy if you'd drop it).My brother IRL plays a zerker main.. his GF has a Guardian alt. My wife has a zerker alt. We have half a dozen high level warriors in my guild. I've even played a zerker many times! I don't have a hate-on for Warriors. I posted more than once on the Beta Boards about fixing Guardian AAs. Please, direct the hostility elsewhere. Lol, I'm not your "enemy".<div></div><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>11-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:22 AM</span>