Has a guard been nerfed as much as im hearing?

[Toilet humour]

<DIV>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toilet humour wrote:<BR> <DIV>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>being that they got rid of the mit advantage we had by scaling down its usefulness when more is obtained... yes sk's and pallies tank just as well as we do now.. plus they can heal and sks can dps and debuff quiet nicely.. </P> <P>essentially all plate tanks can tank the same zerkers do most dps pallies heal the best sks debuff and do nice dps.. guards jsut tank.</P>

[Toilet humour]

<DIV>So as far as raid tanking goes are guards still the best (holding agro wise)? Just that they die easier now (means i have to not slack as much as a templar =P)</DIV>

[highlander]

<P>From my experience so far..  I think guards got a small boost.  I'm seeing the survivability of my Guardian vs. that of a Paly or SK as being greater now than before the update.  As my healers have told me -- its like night and day.  Now, to be fair, the Paly in question has better gear than I do but from what my healers are telling me, they can let thier wards/reactives sit on me while they have to chain cast to keep a Knight alive.</P>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toilet humour wrote:<BR> <DIV>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>being that they got rid of the mit advantage we had by scaling down its usefulness when more is obtained... yes sk's and pallies tank just as well as we do now.. plus they can heal and sks can dps and debuff quiet nicely.. </P> <P>essentially all plate tanks can tank the same zerkers do most dps pallies heal the best sks debuff and do nice dps.. guards jsut tank.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God, you're such a noob. A similarly decked out guardian has almost 3% more mitigation (fully fabled out) 3% more avoidance and almost 1k more hit points then a paladin (note this is with the hero line complete on paladin classes...otherwise you have 7% more avoidance). This is FACT not fiction. Keep in mind that guardian's defensive stances include parry abilities...crusaders don't get this luxery. With avoidance being USEFUL now on raids and grouping...warriors own. Hell I don't even tank anymore, I have a brawler or warrior do it since they do a much better job now. Your aa lines are actually USEFUL to you, whereas the paladin class gets totally shafted. You have the ability to absorb blows outright, and have several different abilities (draconic reflexes for one) which makes you totally immune to damage for brief periods (to include another end tanking one on your hero line). We have 1 total abiliity that lasts now 10 seconds on the stamina line AND IS STILL BROKE!. Mitigation is less a factor then before, but 1k more mitigation then a paladin will still matter with this expansion...no matter what the cap is. If you have the gear I do, come talk to me.

[Original Cinadien]

<DIV>I have noticed no change at all, working as intended from my point of view.</DIV>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toilet humour wrote:<BR> <DIV>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>being that they got rid of the mit advantage we had by scaling down its usefulness when more is obtained... yes sk's and pallies tank just as well as we do now.. plus they can heal and sks can dps and debuff quiet nicely.. </P> <P>essentially all plate tanks can tank the same zerkers do most dps pallies heal the best sks debuff and do nice dps.. guards jsut tank.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God, you're such a noob. A similarly decked out guardian has almost 3% more mitigation (fully fabled out) 3% more avoidance and almost 1k more hit points then a paladin (note this is with the hero line complete on paladin classes...otherwise you have 7% more avoidance). This is FACT not fiction. Keep in mind that guardian's defensive stances include parry abilities...crusaders don't get this luxery. With avoidance being USEFUL now on raids and grouping...warriors own. Hell I don't even tank anymore, I have a brawler or warrior do it since they do a much better job now. Your aa lines are actually USEFUL to you, whereas the paladin class gets totally shafted. You have the ability to absorb blows outright, and have several different abilities (draconic reflexes for one) which makes you totally immune to damage for brief periods (to include another end tanking one on your hero line). We have 1 total abiliity that lasts now 10 seconds on the stamina line AND IS STILL BROKE!. Mitigation is less a factor then before, but 1k more mitigation then a paladin will still matter with this expansion...no matter what the cap is. If you have the gear I do, come talk to me.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I can understand what you're saying totally from a raid perspective; however these nerfs indirectly crippled the already weak soloing abiltiies of the Guardian class. When it comes to any solo encounter, a Crusader is much, much better off. The combination of a Guardian's sub-par DPS and their now dramatically weakened damage absorption versus green / blue heroics means fights last too long and there's absolutely no effective way of healing yourself or controlling the mob.</P> <P>It's all well and good saying soloing is insignificant and anyone not in a raid guild is a noob, but there are more players who spend the majority of their time solo or in a small group than there are raiding. It's also rather infuriating as a Guardian in full-fabled to struggle with encounters a Crusader in treasured junk could take down.</P> <P>It's also all well and good saying you shouldn't be able to solo heroics anyway; but let's face it, soloing anything else is a waste of time, and pretty much every class in the game solos better than a Guardian.</P> <P>I see it as a shame the balance exists in such an extreme fashion, but if Guardians cease to be the #1 raid tank in most situations, (which whether Fighters want to admit it or not, is exactly what they're asking for when they say their class "can't" tank raids, or is 5% worse than a Guardian), they'd [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well better be given a significant dps boost or line of utility/solo abilties. I'm the first person to encourage nerfs that make all content less mindless, and pray to god zones like mistmoore stay as they are, but it's a shame they see nerfing tanks mitigation as a better alternative to reducing heals and buffs, when really they should be nerfed simultaneously.</P> <P> </P>

[EvilIguana9]

Heres the scoop on Guardians versus Paladins.  Everyone's base mitigation and avoudance went down a bit, as did mob damage.  However, the cap for improving avoidance and mit went way up.  Guardians have defensive abilities up the wazoo that used to be impeded by the hard cap.  That is no longer the reality.  Short term mit buffs are now more powerful, defense and parry skill buffs mean more, even guard sta buffs are more useful now.  Paladins, on the other hand, saw little improvement.  We still have no mit buffs or avoidance buffs.   Our AAs are still inferior to the warrior lines.  We still have less power and use more for our spells.  Interrupts have actually increased slightly with the update.  We still usually do less damage under similar conditions.  Amends still bugs to all hell and there are ever increasing numbers of abilities that cause it to be bugged.  Oh, and there are prominant heroic zones where given equally geared guard vs paladin, the guard will be viable and the paladin simply not.  To put it simply, the gap had widened, and it's becoming harder and harder for people to use the raid tank straw man as a reason for not closing it.  <div></div>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toilet humour wrote:<BR> <DIV>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>being that they got rid of the mit advantage we had by scaling down its usefulness when more is obtained... yes sk's and pallies tank just as well as we do now.. plus they can heal and sks can dps and debuff quiet nicely.. </P> <P>essentially all plate tanks can tank the same zerkers do most dps pallies heal the best sks debuff and do nice dps.. guards jsut tank.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God, you're such a noob. A similarly decked out guardian has almost 3% more mitigation (fully fabled out) 3% more avoidance and almost 1k more hit points then a paladin (note this is with the hero line complete on paladin classes...otherwise you have 7% more avoidance). This is FACT not fiction. Keep in mind that guardian's defensive stances include parry abilities...crusaders don't get this luxery. With avoidance being USEFUL now on raids and grouping...warriors own. Hell I don't even tank anymore, I have a brawler or warrior do it since they do a much better job now. Your aa lines are actually USEFUL to you, whereas the paladin class gets totally shafted. You have the ability to absorb blows outright, and have several different abilities (draconic reflexes for one) which makes you totally immune to damage for brief periods (to include another end tanking one on your hero line). We have 1 total abiliity that lasts now 10 seconds on the stamina line AND IS STILL BROKE!. Mitigation is less a factor then before, but 1k more mitigation then a paladin will still matter with this expansion...no matter what the cap is. If you have the gear I do, come talk to me.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I can understand what you're saying totally from a raid perspective; however these nerfs indirectly crippled the already weak soloing abiltiies of the Guardian class. When it comes to any solo encounter, a Crusader is much, much better off. The combination of a Guardian's sub-par DPS and their now dramatically weakened damage absorption versus green / blue heroics means fights last too long and there's absolutely no effective way of healing yourself or controlling the mob.</P> <P>It's all well and good saying soloing is insignificant and anyone not in a raid guild is a noob, but there are more players who spend the majority of their time solo or in a small group than there are raiding. It's also rather infuriating as a Guardian in full-fabled to struggle with encounters a Crusader in treasured junk could take down.</P> <P>It's also all well and good saying you shouldn't be able to solo heroics anyway; but let's face it, soloing anything else is a waste of time, and pretty much every class in the game solos better than a Guardian.</P> <P>I see it as a shame the balance exists in such an extreme fashion, but if Guardians cease to be the #1 raid tank in most situations, (which whether Fighters want to admit it or not, is exactly what they're asking for when they say their class "can't" tank raids, or is 5% worse than a Guardian), they'd [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well better be given a significant dps boost or line of utility/solo abilties. I'm the first person to encourage nerfs that make all content less mindless, and pray to god zones like mistmoore stay as they are, but it's a shame they see nerfing tanks mitigation as a better alternative to reducing heals and buffs, when really they should be nerfed simultaneously.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You can out DPS any paladin any day of the week soloing. There are tons of ways for a guardian to solo mobs just like a paladin...you get damage absorbtion and greater DPS...we get to finally use bows.....whoopie!

[Kule]

Hmmm, I smell a thread being victimized by side-tracking trolls.<div></div>

[Keavea]

<DIV>we have Tried Labs on sunday and i dont think we going back in there until it is fixed .. they said that mobs where scaled  to adjust the new combat revamp but seems trash and nameds having gillions of HP , more traumas are casted from mobs that didnt cast them b4 , we arrived at Fourth  named after 2 hours (what we normaly do in like 1 hour ) Yes Guard have more MIT but honestly as beeing MT in my guild i was going very fast down on trash mobs and needed 5 try to kill First named . overal .. i think SOE made up there choices en wil keep the high end Raiding guilds that have fully fabled Gear happy , there wil be now a difference Between uber raiding guilds and Casual raiding guilds .A half Kitted Tank could tank labs not easly but he could do it . now pretty mutch need a full kitted grp/raid  to be able to get tyll end of zone .Holding agro was ok, now it Stupid Chain casting every taunts , rescue etc.. to try to get agro back ( and yes Coercer in my grp)  hope KOS T7 zones are getting fixed But if they stay like they are now that wil be very hard to finish for a Casual Raiding guild like we are .  i didnt Tried the new zones Yet so ill have to check it on next raid </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kule]

On the night of the 19th, (last night), Labs didn't seem all that much different from before eof. Perhaps they have already fixed it.<div></div>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Toilet humour wrote:<div>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</div> <div> </div> <div>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</div><hr></blockquote>Group Content is fine. Mobs hit harder now, Healers cant go afk now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Soloing is around the same in my opinion.Raiding... well, we only tried Labs... and wooooo... they kicked us in the...Hoping for a KoS Raid Fix.</div>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Toilet humour wrote:<div>So as far as raid tanking goes are guards still the best (holding agro wise)? Just that they die easier now (means i have to not slack as much as a templar =P)</div><hr></blockquote>Taunts get resisted much more now, but apart from that, you hit the nail on the head.</div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toilet humour wrote:<BR> <DIV>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>being that they got rid of the mit advantage we had by scaling down its usefulness when more is obtained... yes sk's and pallies tank just as well as we do now.. plus they can heal and sks can dps and debuff quiet nicely.. </P> <P>essentially all plate tanks can tank the same zerkers do most dps pallies heal the best sks debuff and do nice dps.. guards jsut tank.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God, you're such a noob. A similarly decked out guardian has almost 3% more mitigation (fully fabled out) 3% more avoidance and almost 1k more hit points then a paladin (note this is with the hero line complete on paladin classes...otherwise you have 7% more avoidance). This is FACT not fiction. Keep in mind that guardian's defensive stances include parry abilities...crusaders don't get this luxery. With avoidance being USEFUL now on raids and grouping...warriors own. Hell I don't even tank anymore, I have a brawler or warrior do it since they do a much better job now. Your aa lines are actually USEFUL to you, whereas the paladin class gets totally shafted. You have the ability to absorb blows outright, and have several different abilities (draconic reflexes for one) which makes you totally immune to damage for brief periods (to include another end tanking one on your hero line). We have 1 total abiliity that lasts now 10 seconds on the stamina line AND IS STILL BROKE!. Mitigation is less a factor then before, but 1k more mitigation then a paladin will still matter with this expansion...no matter what the cap is. If you have the gear I do, come talk to me.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>guards do not have an inherant 1k more mit then pallies.. they have about 400 which equals squat anymore.. and as far as guards aa lines.. our isnt that great either we did get 1 new dmg soak but from what I hear its broken..  ayhow my comments come from still the fact of how mit works.. the difference form us to apllies is so small now it used to be huge.. which fine whatever.. but where are my heals?</P> <P> </P>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toilet humour wrote:<BR> <DIV>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>being that they got rid of the mit advantage we had by scaling down its usefulness when more is obtained... yes sk's and pallies tank just as well as we do now.. plus they can heal and sks can dps and debuff quiet nicely.. </P> <P>essentially all plate tanks can tank the same zerkers do most dps pallies heal the best sks debuff and do nice dps.. guards jsut tank.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God, you're such a noob. A similarly decked out guardian has almost 3% more mitigation (fully fabled out) 3% more avoidance and almost 1k more hit points then a paladin (note this is with the hero line complete on paladin classes...otherwise you have 7% more avoidance). This is FACT not fiction. Keep in mind that guardian's defensive stances include parry abilities...crusaders don't get this luxery. With avoidance being USEFUL now on raids and grouping...warriors own. Hell I don't even tank anymore, I have a brawler or warrior do it since they do a much better job now. Your aa lines are actually USEFUL to you, whereas the paladin class gets totally shafted. You have the ability to absorb blows outright, and have several different abilities (draconic reflexes for one) which makes you totally immune to damage for brief periods (to include another end tanking one on your hero line). We have 1 total abiliity that lasts now 10 seconds on the stamina line AND IS STILL BROKE!. Mitigation is less a factor then before, but 1k more mitigation then a paladin will still matter with this expansion...no matter what the cap is. If you have the gear I do, come talk to me.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>guards do not have an inherant 1k more mit then pallies.. they have about 400 which equals squat anymore.. and as far as guards aa lines.. our isnt that great either we did get 1 new dmg soak but from what I hear its broken..  ayhow my comments come from still the fact of how mit works.. the difference form us to apllies is so small now it used to be huge.. which fine whatever.. but where are my heals?</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wrong, learn your class man....</P> <P>With your aa lines you have 320 mit from KoS aa's and 650ish mit from your group or self mit buff (with the aa choice in EoF). That equals 1k more mitigation then paladins. You also get insane total damage avoidance buffs that make you immune to damage for almost a minute if you burn them all (draconic reflexes, end hero line for 10 seconds, Marr's Miracle for 20 seconds and Tower of Stone). Thats a lot of damage avoided.</P>

[vatorman99]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kuleon wrote:On the night of the 19th, (last night), Labs didn't seem all that much different from before eof. Perhaps they have already fixed it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You can be relieved, here's a peak at today's update notes <span>:smileywink:</span><font face="Arial" size="2"><span><font color="#ffff00">*** Gameplay ***</font><b>- The Laboratory of Lord Vyemm should be more reasonable to fight in again.  All mobs, named, boss, and base population have had modifications done to their stats and abilities.</b></span></font></div>

[Rienlos]

<div><blockquote><div></div><blockquote><div></div><blockquote><div></div><blockquote><div></div><blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Wrong, learn your class man....</p> <p>With your aa lines you have 320 mit from KoS aa's and 650ish mit from your group or self mit buff (with the aa choice in EoF). That equals 1k more mitigation then paladins. You also get insane total damage avoidance buffs that make you immune to damage for almost a minute if you burn them all (draconic reflexes, end hero line for 10 seconds, Marr's Miracle for 20 seconds and Tower of Stone). Thats a lot of damage avoided.</p><hr></blockquote>My defensive stance (adept III) gives me 2% mit over my offensive stance.  320 mit from WIS line is true but I am not seeing 1k mit.  Learn what you're talking about.  Even prechange it was less than 500.We also don't get any warding, healing like Pallies.  I'm not trying to say its fair or not but use good numbers.  And you can use marr's miracle too?  As far as KoS AAs most don't get the AGI and the WIS line.  A lot of guards have to pick up the STA or STR lines for the dps to keep us holding aggro (especially moreso now with taunt changes, the number we have being our edge over some other fighters).  So yes we get ToS.RienlosGuk</div>

[Excedium]

<DIV>True the Wis line isn't sought after much. Like no good spears either. I think he's talking about our Command which at master I plus the eof AA upgrades shoots it close to 1k for crush and piercing and leaves slash at around 700 or so for 30 seconds. Plus our wall of Force which is another 1,100 mit that last 30 seconds or 45 seconds with eof AAs. Im really enjoying being a Guard with EoF. Of course taunts being resisted sucks but I'll keep waiting it out.</DIV>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rienlos wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wrong, learn your class man....</P> <P>With your aa lines you have 320 mit from KoS aa's and 650ish mit from your group or self mit buff (with the aa choice in EoF). That equals 1k more mitigation then paladins. You also get insane total damage avoidance buffs that make you immune to damage for almost a minute if you burn them all (draconic reflexes, end hero line for 10 seconds, Marr's Miracle for 20 seconds and Tower of Stone). Thats a lot of damage avoided.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My defensive stance (adept III) gives me 2% mit over my offensive stance.  320 mit from WIS line is true but I am not seeing 1k mit.  Learn what you're talking about.  Even prechange it was less than 500.<BR><BR>We also don't get any warding, healing like Pallies.  I'm not trying to say its fair or not but use good numbers.  And you can use marr's miracle too?  As far as KoS AAs most don't get the AGI and the WIS line.  A lot of guards have to pick up the STA or STR lines for the dps to keep us holding aggro (especially moreso now with taunt changes, the number we have being our edge over some other fighters).  So yes we get ToS.<BR><BR>Rienlos<BR>Guk<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>From the number of posts I will be nice and tell you some information about your class that sadly as a guardian you are not aware of....</P> <P>You have 2 self mitigation buffs that are temporary. One is group the other is self based. SPECIFCALLY they are Command and Wall of Force. Now, with the Command spell (at master I it boosts crushing mit by 653 and 816 to slashing and piercing...theres also an aa that gives a 15% boost to this effect in EoF...making the end results 751 and 938.4 mitigation respectively...........</P> <P>Wall of force has a mit buff of only 1104 mitigation for 30 seconds.....hmm...but wait...its duration with the EoF aa's is now 37.5 seconds...hmm.</P> <P>Now, breaking the math down even FURTHER for the number impaired guardian When Wall of force is used you could have a mit boost of only 1434 and when Command is used an average mit boost of 1091 to 1258.4 (depending on the damage you would recieve....</P> <P>But, you say, OBVIOUSLY these buffs are worthless since they can't be used all the time, the one has a duration of 37.5 seconds and the other only a duration of 30 seconds........hmmm....with recasts of 1 min and 2 min respectively you can keep on or the other of these mit buffs up roughly 90% of all fights if timed correctly.</P> <P>Is there anything else about your class I can teach you today?<BR></P>

[Kule]

<div>Dude, it's obviuous he wasn't counting timed buffs.What is the point you are making Fatuus?Farkin Troll.</div>

[Rienlos]

Seriously.  Yes those timed buffs are nice but you are talking about innate mitigation.  We better have more than a paladin we don't get heals, wards, group heals.  If you don't like them so much then roll a guardian and quit complaining.  If you like your wards and heals then the obvious problem here is the balance between mitigation and the potentcy of your classes innate ability to heal their own dmg and prevent it.You're summing up guardian AAs, skills, lines and assuming someone can take all of them and comparing them to lines your class does not have while ignoring the ones you do.  If you feel this is a valid comparisson I think you're very incorrect.How much can your wards absorb?  How does that compare to the difference in absorbtion in innate mitigation?  Seriously you seem to have all our numbers down pat.  Could we see some of yours?  That is if we are to believe your valid argument?I am still not making comments about the balance or lack thereof between the classes.  But you really shouldn't come insulting someone on their class forums while barking out your way without backing it up.RienlosGuk<div></div>

[Rienlos]

Sorry for the near derail.  I feel guards are hurt as much as any by the increased resistance to taunt.  We definately still have the quick tools that give us the edge in survivability and the ability to keep a group alive (intervene lines, stone sphere, sentry watch) has become more useful IMO.But I think really most of the fighter classes have felt the nerf.  I dunno yet if anyone is feeling it worse than others but I have seen guildmate SKs, bruisers, monks all able to finish the same instances I can with similiar setups.  The raiding issue is another entirely I'm sure.<div></div>

[highlander]

<DIV>Not to further derail this thread by angry Paladin's..  but,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>most paladin's are irked because the gap between Knight and Warrior has increased in EOF.  Has it?  Yup.  As a guardian now, I can take a hit that'll make a Paladin cry and just shrug it off.  Should they be irked?  IMHO, no.  As has been said before, they're ability to solo far far out paces a Guardian's ability.  In groupage they are STILL able to be a tank for any instance or heroic named in the game.  Are they the best choice at all times?  No.  As with all tanks, we all have our pro's and con's and if the instance is trvial to a group, its easier for us as Guards to lose out our slot to a Paly, SK or Zerker.  They can do the same as us but with a LOT more utility and more dps..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've said this before on my server.  I have no problem with SKs, Paly's or Zerkers being raid tanks.  All I ask is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Knights lose all utility and -50% DPS</DIV> <DIV>Zerkers lose -60% DPS</DIV> <DIV>Monks and Bruisers lose 80% DPS and FD/heal</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then they can have everything we have.  Which is not much dps but the ability to really really take a hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You chose your class at game start -- a cleric that can wield a sword.  Don't hate on the guard forums because you feel your broken.  Your not.  I still think you Knights have too much dps.  But, right now SOE says your implemented as intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grass is always greener on the other side.  You think that Guards have it made right now.  We still have issues.  Aggro being #1.  A DPS spec'd Knight can pull hate off my raid spec'd Guard faster than a ranger can die when he pulls aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toilet humour wrote:<BR> <DIV>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>being that they got rid of the mit advantage we had by scaling down its usefulness when more is obtained... yes sk's and pallies tank just as well as we do now.. plus they can heal and sks can dps and debuff quiet nicely.. </P> <P>essentially all plate tanks can tank the same zerkers do most dps pallies heal the best sks debuff and do nice dps.. guards jsut tank.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God, you're such a noob. A similarly decked out guardian has almost 3% more mitigation (fully fabled out) 3% more avoidance and almost 1k more hit points then a paladin (note this is with the hero line complete on paladin classes...otherwise you have 7% more avoidance). This is FACT not fiction. Keep in mind that guardian's defensive stances include parry abilities...crusaders don't get this luxery. With avoidance being USEFUL now on raids and grouping...warriors own. Hell I don't even tank anymore, I have a brawler or warrior do it since they do a much better job now. Your aa lines are actually USEFUL to you, whereas the paladin class gets totally shafted. You have the ability to absorb blows outright, and have several different abilities (draconic reflexes for one) which makes you totally immune to damage for brief periods (to include another end tanking one on your hero line). We have 1 total abiliity that lasts now 10 seconds on the stamina line AND IS STILL BROKE!. Mitigation is less a factor then before, but 1k more mitigation then a paladin will still matter with this expansion...no matter what the cap is. If you have the gear I do, come talk to me.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>guards do not have an inherant 1k more mit then pallies.. they have about 400 which equals squat anymore.. and as far as guards aa lines.. our isnt that great either we did get 1 new dmg soak but from what I hear its broken..  ayhow my comments come from still the fact of how mit works.. the difference form us to apllies is so small now it used to be huge.. which fine whatever.. but where are my heals?</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wrong, learn your class man....</P> <P>With your aa lines you have 320 mit from KoS aa's and 650ish mit from your group or self mit buff (with the aa choice in EoF). That equals 1k more mitigation then paladins. You also get insane total damage avoidance buffs that make you immune to damage for almost a minute if you burn them all (draconic reflexes, end hero line for 10 seconds, Marr's Miracle for 20 seconds and Tower of Stone). Thats a lot of damage avoided.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>awe sweet I get a 650 mit buff??? thats uber.. nwo I jsut gotta find where it is <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> actually I am either blind or u are mmistaken we dont get a 650 mit buff with eof aa's</P> <P>anyhow umm ok dragon reflexes yeah not bad lose aggro wehn I use it.. not that I have the aa anymore.. havent got taht 10 sec one yet.. umm marr's miracle um pardon me but umm taht is somethung u get.. not I being eyr a pally u are good I am evil I cant worship marr so strike 2 there.... tos is ok but hardly an abilty that can jsut be used all the time.. unelss u wish to be shieldless...</P> <P>so in total we have the 10 sec eof one 320 more mit a bit mroe avoidance about 800 more life? dragon reflexes if it was chosen and tos.. please get it straight <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> highlander13 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not to further derail this thread by angry Paladin's..  but,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>most paladin's are irked because the gap between Knight and Warrior has increased in EOF.  Has it?  Yup.  As a guardian now, I can take a hit that'll make a Paladin cry and just shrug it off.  Should they be irked?  IMHO, no.  As has been said before, they're ability to solo far far out paces a Guardian's ability.  In groupage they are STILL able to be a tank for any instance or heroic named in the game.  Are they the best choice at all times?  No.  As with all tanks, we all have our pro's and con's and if the instance is trvial to a group, its easier for us as Guards to lose out our slot to a Paly, SK or Zerker.  They can do the same as us but with a LOT more utility and more dps..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've said this before on my server.  I have no problem with SKs, Paly's or Zerkers being raid tanks.  All I ask is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Knights lose all utility and -50% DPS</DIV> <DIV>Zerkers lose -60% DPS</DIV> <DIV>Monks and Bruisers lose 80% DPS and FD/heal</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then they can have everything we have.  Which is not much dps but the ability to really really take a hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You chose your class at game start -- a cleric that can wield a sword.  Don't hate on the guard forums because you feel your broken.  Your not.  I still think you Knights have too much dps.  But, right now SOE says your implemented as intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grass is always greener on the other side.  You think that Guards have it made right now.  We still have issues.  Aggro being #1.  A DPS spec'd Knight can pull hate off my raid spec'd Guard faster than a ranger can die when he pulls aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>how exactly have gurdians improved over pallies in eof?</P> <P> </P>

[EvilIguana9]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fatuus wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Toilet humour wrote:<div>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</div><div> </div><div>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</div><hr></blockquote><p>being that they got rid of the mit advantage we had by scaling down its usefulness when more is obtained... yes sk's and pallies tank just as well as we do now.. plus they can heal and sks can dps and debuff quiet nicely..</p><p>essentially all plate tanks can tank the same zerkers do most dps pallies heal the best sks debuff and do nice dps.. guards jsut tank.</p><hr></blockquote>God, you're such a noob. A similarly decked out guardian has almost 3% more mitigation (fully fabled out) 3% more avoidance and almost 1k more hit points then a paladin (note this is with the hero line complete on paladin classes...otherwise you have 7% more avoidance). This is FACT not fiction. Keep in mind that guardian's defensive stances include parry abilities...crusaders don't get this luxery. With avoidance being USEFUL now on raids and grouping...warriors own. Hell I don't even tank anymore, I have a brawler or warrior do it since they do a much better job now. Your aa lines are actually USEFUL to you, whereas the paladin class gets totally shafted. You have the ability to absorb blows outright, and have several different abilities (draconic reflexes for one) which makes you totally immune to damage for brief periods (to include another end tanking one on your hero line). We have 1 total abiliity that lasts now 10 seconds on the stamina line AND IS STILL BROKE!. Mitigation is less a factor then before, but 1k more mitigation then a paladin will still matter with this expansion...no matter what the cap is. If you have the gear I do, come talk to me.<hr></blockquote><p>guards do not have an inherant 1k more mit then pallies.. they have about 400 which equals squat anymore.. and as far as guards aa lines.. our isnt that great either we did get 1 new dmg soak but from what I hear its broken..  ayhow my comments come from still the fact of how mit works.. the difference form us to apllies is so small now it used to be huge.. which fine whatever.. but where are my heals?</p><hr></blockquote><span>Let's see what guardians get vs what paladins get personal defense wise.  Compared to an identically geared paladin, guardians have:58 more stamina from Fortified Conviction320 more standing mitigation from AAs222 mitigation for entire group from Command (averaged the mitigation to 666 for 30 seconds, divided by 3 for 90 second refresh)483 mitigation from Wall of Force (966 mit for 30 seconds, divided by 2 for 60 sec recast)24 more parry from defensive stance21 extra defense for entire group from Call of ArmanentDecrease DPS and attack speed of all enemies in AE by 22% and roots them with Plant (most mob damage comes from auto attack)Decrease DPS on a single target by 17.5% with SeverTower of Stone, nuff said271 extra hp from Return to War (subtracted 321 for pally self hp buff from 592 for guard group buff)Now, what do paladins have that guardians don't?47 extra wisdom from Ardent Belief127 extra wisom on defensive stance1624 extra resist points from defensive stance (we get 2 resist buffs vs guards 1)840 average hp heal every 7 seconds at best (2 second cast, 5 second recast)1204 point ward every 17 seconds at best (2 second cast, 15 second recast)2041 average hp self heal every 5 minutes with a 3 second cast time, making it mostly useless in combat852 average hp GROUP heal every 10.5 seconds at best (3 second cast, 7.5 second recast)3234 average hp emergency heal every 15 minutes (lay hands line)On paper it's looks reasonably balanced.  In practice it is not.  Paladins have slightly better resists, but 95% of all fights are hugely physical damage over arcane damage.  We have wards and heals, but they have significant cast times and are VERY prone to interruption.  Furthermore, they prevent or repair damage by a fixed amount, whereas mit and avoidance scale with the amount of damage dealt.  Basically, the harder the fight, the less effective our tools are, yet the opposite is true for warriors.  At the same time, our abilities consume huge amounts of mana. The numbers above are based on adept III skills pulled from EQ2iDB.  They might not be perfect as I did not link them in game to check for accuracy, but they should be pretty close. <!-- [if !supportLineBreakNewLine] --><!-- [endif] --></span></div>

[EvilIguana9]

<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div>most paladin's are irked because the gap between Knight and Warrior has increased in EOF.  Has it?  Yup.<hr size="2" width="100%">Indeed it has.<hr size="2" width="100%">As a guardian now, I can take a hit that'll make a Paladin cry and just shrug it off.  Should they be irked?<hr size="2" width="100%">Yes we should.<hr size="2" width="100%">As has been said before, they're ability to solo far far out paces a Guardian's ability.<hr size="2" width="100%">If by "far" you mean "slightly to moderately" then this is accurate, otherwise it's wrong.  I will give you this: a well played paladin will do better solo than a guardian.  You can out dps us, but for non heroic encounters our spells allow us to live through tough situations you'd have to run from or die to.  <hr size="2" width="100%">In groupage they are STILL able to be a tank for any instance or heroic named in the game.<hr size="2" width="100%">And here's where it falls apart.  This is wrong.  The tanking gap between paladins and warriors is not limited to raids, it applies to ANY AND ALL highly challenging content.  Nizara, Mistmoore, even Halls of Fate in some circumstances.  There is a very significant slice of the playerbase for whom Warriors can tank and Paladins cannot.  Repeat after me: I should not have to be raid geared to be able to tank heroic content as well as my supposed equal.  <hr size="2" width="100%">As with all tanks, we all have our pro's and con's and if the instance is trvial to a group, its easier for us as Guards to lose out our slot to a Paly, SK or Zerker<hr size="2" width="100%">Some of us have more pros than cons, that is what the argument is over.  That you need to use trivial content as guage simply reinforces the position opposite yours.  If the content is trivial enough a wizard could tank it, thayt doesn't make them as good at tanking as guardians.  <hr size="2" width="100%">They can do the same as us but with a LOT more utility and more dps..<hr size="2" width="100%">You are living in the past.  Guardians out dps paladins easily.  /Some/ paladins can have respectable dps.  They do it by basically sacraficing every other important attribute via aa and gear choices.  But I am fine with guards having more dps, it's your counter to our heals in the offtank role, along with your multitude of group defense and damage interception buffs.  <hr size="2" width="100%">You chose your class at game start -- a cleric that can wield a sword.<hr size="2" width="100%">And it is statements like these that are so galling as to result in "hate on the guard forums because you feel your broken".  We did not sign up as clerics with swords.  I chose my class because it is what I like to roleplay as.  Paladins were supposed to achieve basically the same results as guardians but THROUGH DIFFERENT MEANS.  That is how the game was sold, that is the concept that has been reaffirmed in principle through every major combat change but not followed up sufficiently in practice.  We are no more clerics with swords than you are.  Hell, if you want to get technical guards probably have more cleric spells than we do.  We have heals like clerics, you have group hp  buffs, mit buffs, defense buffs, abilities that keep the group alive by intercepting damage.  Sounds kinda like a cleric with a sword to me.  Hey, guess that means you should not be able to tank.

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toilet humour wrote:<BR> <DIV>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>being that they got rid of the mit advantage we had by scaling down its usefulness when more is obtained... yes sk's and pallies tank just as well as we do now.. plus they can heal and sks can dps and debuff quiet nicely.. </P> <P>essentially all plate tanks can tank the same zerkers do most dps pallies heal the best sks debuff and do nice dps.. guards jsut tank.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God, you're such a noob. A similarly decked out guardian has almost 3% more mitigation (fully fabled out) 3% more avoidance and almost 1k more hit points then a paladin (note this is with the hero line complete on paladin classes...otherwise you have 7% more avoidance). This is FACT not fiction. Keep in mind that guardian's defensive stances include parry abilities...crusaders don't get this luxery. With avoidance being USEFUL now on raids and grouping...warriors own. Hell I don't even tank anymore, I have a brawler or warrior do it since they do a much better job now. Your aa lines are actually USEFUL to you, whereas the paladin class gets totally shafted. You have the ability to absorb blows outright, and have several different abilities (draconic reflexes for one) which makes you totally immune to damage for brief periods (to include another end tanking one on your hero line). We have 1 total abiliity that lasts now 10 seconds on the stamina line AND IS STILL BROKE!. Mitigation is less a factor then before, but 1k more mitigation then a paladin will still matter with this expansion...no matter what the cap is. If you have the gear I do, come talk to me.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>guards do not have an inherant 1k more mit then pallies.. they have about 400 which equals squat anymore.. and as far as guards aa lines.. our isnt that great either we did get 1 new dmg soak but from what I hear its broken..  ayhow my comments come from still the fact of how mit works.. the difference form us to apllies is so small now it used to be huge.. which fine whatever.. but where are my heals?</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wrong, learn your class man....</P> <P>With your aa lines you have 320 mit from KoS aa's and 650ish mit from your group or self mit buff (with the aa choice in EoF). That equals 1k more mitigation then paladins. You also get insane total damage avoidance buffs that make you immune to damage for almost a minute if you burn them all (draconic reflexes, end hero line for 10 seconds, Marr's Miracle for 20 seconds and Tower of Stone). Thats a lot of damage avoided.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>awe sweet I get a 650 mit buff??? thats uber.. nwo I jsut gotta find where it is <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> actually I am either blind or u are mmistaken we dont get a 650 mit buff with eof aa's</P> <P>anyhow umm ok dragon reflexes yeah not bad lose aggro wehn I use it.. not that I have the aa anymore.. havent got taht 10 sec one yet.. umm marr's miracle um pardon me but umm taht is somethung u get.. not I being eyr a pally u are good I am evil I cant worship marr so strike 2 there.... tos is ok but hardly an abilty that can jsut be used all the time.. unelss u wish to be shieldless...</P> <P>so in total we have the 10 sec eof one 320 more mit a bit mroe avoidance about 800 more life? dragon reflexes if it was chosen and tos.. please get it straight <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You command group buff is increased 15% by aa line choices.

[highlander]

Assuming he picked that AA 5x.  He might've gone the DPS path or another line.

[Ep]

christ, not every guard goes down the 314mit warrior line, not every guard will plug 5points into command. Just b/c pallies do not get any +MIt anything, doesn't mean warriors will go out and thirst for the aa's that do give mit.you cannot base your opinions on guards, from the aa's you wished you had. <div></div>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>Big diff is that Gaurd temp mid buffs are alot easier to get off than a ward or a heal. Tis not fair comparison to Pal abilities. If Paladins was instants then ya you could compare but the mid buffs and ToS aren't going to get interupted.</DIV>

[highlander]

<DIV>What you said:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Let's see what guardians get vs what paladins get personal defense wise.  Compared to an identically geared paladin, guardians have:<BR><BR>58 more stamina from Fortified Conviction<BR>320 more standing mitigation from AAs<BR>222 mitigation for entire group from Command (averaged the mitigation to 666 for 30 seconds, divided by 3 for 90 second refresh)<BR>483 mitigation from Wall of Force (966 mit for 30 seconds, divided by 2 for 60 sec recast)<BR>24 more parry from defensive stance<BR>21 extra defense for entire group from Call of Armanent<BR>Decrease DPS and attack speed of all enemies in AE by 22% and roots them with Plant (most mob damage comes from auto attack)<BR>Decrease DPS on a single target by 17.5% with Sever<BR>Tower of Stone, nuff said<BR>271 extra hp from Return to War (subtracted 321 for pally self hp buff from 592 for guard group buff)<BR><BR>Now, what do paladins have that guardians don't?<BR><BR>47 extra wisdom from Ardent Belief<BR>127 extra wisom on defensive stance<BR>1624 extra resist points from defensive stance (we get 2 resist buffs vs guards 1)<BR>840 average hp heal every 7 seconds at best (2 second cast, 5 second recast)<BR>1204 point ward every 17 seconds at best (2 second cast, 15 second recast)<BR>2041 average hp self heal every 5 minutes with a 3 second cast time, making it mostly useless in combat<BR>852 average hp GROUP heal every 10.5 seconds at best (3 second cast, 7.5 second recast)<BR>3234 average hp emergency heal every 15 minutes (lay hands line)<BR><BR>On paper it's looks reasonably balanced.  In practice it is not.  Paladins have slightly better resists, but 95% of all fights are hugely physical damage over arcane damage.  We have wards and heals, but they have significant cast times and are VERY prone to interruption.  Furthermore, they prevent or repair damage by a fixed amount, whereas mit and avoidance scale with the amount of damage dealt.  Basically, the harder the fight, the less effective our tools are, yet the opposite is true for warriors.  At the same time, our abilities consume huge amounts of mana. <BR><BR>The numbers above are based on adept III skills pulled from EQ2iDB.  They might not be perfect as I did not link them in game to check for accuracy, but they should be pretty close. <BR></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>----------------</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Using your logic, with all your heals you've have over a 5K HP advantage over a Guardian, not to mention some very high resists.  On paper, I'd argue that you guys have more advantages over us than anything else.  But, I'm not on the paly forums arguing that my class is broken.  I think paly's are fine as they are right now.  You'll probably find that as the consensus in these forums as you can still out solo a like geared Guardian.  The Mith Marr trial is a great example of that.  I know a Paly that did it on his first try and I know of a Guardian that still can't live long enough to get the update.  Is it fair?  Depends on your perspective I guess but instead of getting irked off, he's just trying to find better gear to make him live long enough to score the update.  What you can do without any effort requires a change of strategy and tactics for us.  Unless the game is redesigned so that there is only 1 tank class, that sounds like a correct implementation of the Fighter class.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Right now, I can't think of one heroic instance that you as a Paladin can't do as a Main Tank.  To me, that says balanced.</SPAN><SPAN></DIV></SPAN>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<div><blockquote><hr>highlander13 wrote:<div><span>  The Mith Marr trial is a great example of that.  I know a Paly that did it on his first try and I know of a Guardian that still can't live long enough to get the update.  </span></div><div><span></span><span></span></div><hr></blockquote>Do you mean the last Trial of Valor?You get the update when you die without leaving the ring. Not sure the engine will stop spawning harder and harder mobs until you are dead.</div>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sir_Halbarad wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> highlander13 wrote:<BR> <DIV><SPAN>  The Mith Marr trial is a great example of that.  I know a Paly that did it on his first try and I know of a Guardian that still can't live long enough to get the update.  <BR></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><BR></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do you mean the last Trial of Valor?<BR><BR>You get the update when you die without leaving the ring. Not sure the engine will stop spawning harder and harder mobs until you are dead.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ya i had that trouble too till i thought it out, i just let everything spawn and used all my mit buffs and stone sphere and ToS to live till the heroic spawned, doesnt matter if you die after that cause you get rezzed instantly with no decay and you complete the quest. It's just a matter of running around the little circle long enough. It really isn;t that hard, now if you actually try to fight it out, ya you are gonna die before the heroic comes.

[highlander]

<DIV>Do you mean the last Trial of Valor?<BR><BR>You get the update when you die without leaving the ring. Not sure the engine will stop spawning harder and harder mobs until you are dead.<BR><BR> <HR> <BR>Ya i had that trouble too till i thought it out, i just let everything spawn and used all my mit buffs and stone sphere and ToS to live till the heroic spawned, doesnt matter if you die after that cause you get rezzed instantly with no decay and you complete the quest. It's just a matter of running around the little circle long enough. It really isn;t that hard, now if you actually try to fight it out, ya you are gonna die before the heroic comes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll pass that info along.  My guard was raid geared so I was able to last the required 2 mins or so to get my update fighting it out.  But, I'll advise my friend to run around the circle like a paly :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV><BR>Thanks for the advice!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Xeni</DIV>

[Super Du]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN>Let's see what guardians get vs what paladins get personal defense wise.  Compared to an identically geared paladin, guardians have:<BR><BR>58 more stamina from Fortified Conviction<BR>320 more standing mitigation from AAs<BR>222 mitigation for entire group from Command (averaged the mitigation to 666 for 30 seconds, divided by 3 for 90 second refresh)<BR>483 mitigation from Wall of Force (966 mit for 30 seconds, divided by 2 for 60 sec recast)<BR>24 more parry from defensive stance<BR>21 extra defense for entire group from Call of Armanent<BR>Decrease DPS and attack speed of all enemies in AE by 22% and roots them with Plant (most mob damage comes from auto attack)<BR>Decrease DPS on a single target by 17.5% with Sever<BR>Tower of Stone, nuff said<BR>271 extra hp from Return to War (subtracted 321 for pally self hp buff from 592 for guard group buff)<BR><BR>Now, what do paladins have that guardians don't?<BR><BR>47 extra wisdom from Ardent Belief<BR>127 extra wisom on defensive stance<BR>1624 extra resist points from defensive stance (we get 2 resist buffs vs guards 1)<BR>840 average hp heal every 7 seconds at best (2 second cast, 5 second recast)<BR>1204 point ward every 17 seconds at best (2 second cast, 15 second recast)<BR>2041 average hp self heal every 5 minutes with a 3 second cast time, making it mostly useless in combat<BR>852 average hp GROUP heal every 10.5 seconds at best (3 second cast, 7.5 second recast)<BR>3234 average hp emergency heal every 15 minutes (lay hands line)<BR><BR>On paper it's looks reasonably balanced.  In practice it is not.  Paladins have slightly better resists, but 95% of all fights are hugely physical damage over arcane damage.  We have wards and heals, but they have significant cast times and are VERY prone to interruption.  Furthermore, they prevent or repair damage by a fixed amount, whereas mit and avoidance scale with the amount of damage dealt.  Basically, the harder the fight, the less effective our tools are, yet the opposite is true for warriors.  At the same time, our abilities consume huge amounts of mana. <BR><BR>The numbers above are based on adept III skills pulled from EQ2iDB.  They might not be perfect as I did not link them in game to check for accuracy, but they should be pretty close. <BR><!-- [if !supportLineBreakNewLine] --><BR><!-- [endif] --></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>lol dude, why do you divide this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like that... it doesn't even make sence... you are not even doing it right since reuse timers don't start till spell expires, not when you just mooshed the button... so redo your math mkay!</P> <P>if you are so bitter about those two [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mit buffs, you definately need to go buy a bigger clinex.  Those buffs are nice but they aren't used as often as you think... i save command for big spikes... tower of stone... what a joke that doesn't even get used that often cuz it breaks your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]... you did miss one true oober spell... Stone Sphere... now that's where my true love is at... you didn't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about it tho... i guess you don't know about it yet... well go find out and come back and make few more whiny replies... maybe then our guard forums will agree with you and we can gather up in a tight little circle and worship your ooberness.</P> <P>Now, i'm not an expert on pallies in any manner, nor am i willing to go and look at your stupid spells and compare them to mine... etc.  that's just waste of my time, considering only good pally is a dead pally to me... but i do know that my guildmate sk can tank just as well as me.  We both have nice gear, difference is simply 3-4% in mit and avoid, that's it.  If your guild cannot overcome such a tiny variation then i suggest you start practicing more or you'll never beat any of the new zones, not even if soe gives pallies 50k hp buff.  ANYWAY!  back to the topic, sk can tank just as well, in fact he can keep agro better then me, as for mit buffs, the only difference is that 320 mit i get from aa lines... and he can easily make that up by sucking mit from the mob.  The true difference however comes when we talk on how we tank... for me it's simple... all i do is make sure i'm in a proper possition, hit some taunt buttons and watch my hp bar for the spikes... poor sks have to debuff mob and rebuff mid.fight on top of that.  That takes a lot of work, so i find guardian class to be a lazy tank!  the means are different but you can achieve same results at the end tho.  you'll need a slightly different approach for that.  </P> <P>Now, don't be pointing fingers at people and calling them dumb noobs, cuz they don't agree with you... as you have said [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on paper and the actual use of it in game is different.  You come to our forums [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing just because after inspecting your fella guard you find that his stats are slightly better and you get all insulted that your baby pally not as good as guard in stats... that means they are not as good of a tank... bla bla bla... that's just silly dude.  It's a noob perception for noob people, the same perception that causes people to bluntly choose warrior to tank over brawlers or crusaders... it's all in the skill of person... the tools are ballanced...</P> <P>hehe hey fella guardians we need to create some drama here quick, so all um fools keep trash in their own forums... oh btw! anyone still uses buckler?  my [Removed for Content] guild made me respec just cuz they think bucklers sux... omg buncha jerks, i have to taunt now =(  with buckler it's like ok mobs inc... /afk gotta get some tea.   </P> <P>/love </P>

[Skeptycal]

The answer is  ... No. Guards were not nerfed. Guards are still awesome and great fun. So go have fun =) ps... Fortified Confiction offers 66 STA self buff not 58. <div></div>

[EvilIguana9]

<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div>lol dude, why do you divide this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like that... it doesn't even make sence...<hr size="2" width="100%">Mainly because I'm trying to present a general picture of how much of a mitigation advantage a guardian would have <i>on average</i>.  It makes perfect sense in that context, but I will freely admit it is not perfect.  <hr size="2" width="100%">you are not even doing it right since reuse timers don't start till spell expires, not when you just mooshed the button... so redo your math mkay!<hr size="2" width="100%">I did not believe this to be the case, but if it is indeed true then consider me corrected.  Most abilities don't operate that way, but some do.  You'll have to excuse me for not having access to a level 70 guardian to play and compare these things.  <hr size="2" width="100%">if you are so bitter about those two [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mit buffs, you definately need to go buy a bigger clinex.  Those buffs are nice but they aren't used as often as you think... i save command for big spikes... tower of stone... what a joke that doesn't even get used that often cuz it breaks your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...<hr size="2" width="100%">Immature personal attacks aside, I don't think I classify as bitter.  Well maybe a little, opinions may vary of course.  Interesting you should mention spike damage though.  I'd say that being able to reduce spike damage is a pretty useful thing, perhaps even more useful than constant mitigation.  Spikes are what kill.  As long as damage is coming in consistently the healer(s) can typically handle it.  As for tower of stone, the price to pay is indeed a consideration, but I'd have to say that I'd rather take damage to an item and live than die and take equal damage to every item, and likely have the rest of the group take that damage too.  <hr size="2" width="100%">you did miss one true oober spell... Stone Sphere... now that's where my true love is at... you didn't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about it tho... i guess you don't know about it yet... well go find out and come back and make few more whiny replies...<hr size="2" width="100%">Again with the personal attacks.  Look I'm not running for office, my character does not really factor into this debate.  I wasn't sure how to classify stone sphere as the spell description is kind of cryptic.  Again I work with what I have available to me, and that does not include a lvl 70 guard character to test with.  <hr size="2" width="100%">Now, i'm not an expert on pallies in any manner, nor am i willing to go and look at your stupid spells and compare them to mine... etc.  that's just waste of my time, considering only good pally is a dead pally to me...<hr size="2" width="100%">Yes.  Let's make sure to get any illusions of impartiality firmly dispelled.  <hr size="2" width="100%">We both have nice gear, difference is simply 3-4% in mit and avoid, that's it.  If your guild cannot overcome such a tiny variation then i suggest you start practicing more or you'll never beat any of the new zones, not even if soe gives pallies 50k hp buff.  ANYWAY!  back to the topic, sk can tank just as well, in fact he can keep agro better then me, as for mit buffs, the only difference is that 320 mit i get from aa lines... and he can easily make that up by sucking mit from the mob.<hr size="2" width="100%">Ok, if the 3-4% mitigation and 3-4% avoidance differences are so minor and pointless, can I have them then?   Oh ands SKs get a a mitigation tap, Paladins don't.  I'm not really discussing SKs as there are people far better suited to champion their cause than myself.  By the way, nice straw man with the crappy guild cliche.  I suppose pointing out that the question of whether I or my guildmates can or cannot do X is immaterial would be largely fruitless.  <hr size="2" width="100%">The true difference however comes when we talk on how we tank... for me it's simple... all i do is make sure i'm in a proper possition, hit some taunt buttons and watch my hp bar for the spikes... poor sks have to debuff mob and rebuff mid.fight on top of that.  That takes a lot of work, so i find guardian class to be a lazy tank!  the means are different but you can achieve same results at the end tho.  you'll need a slightly different approach for that. <hr size="2" width="100%">So after you attack my competance, you go on to admit that you yourself are not a great player.  Quite frankly, if you do jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e yet perform as well as your SK guildmate while he puts in a ton of effort then the class imbalance is crystal clear.  Thankfully I know that it's not the case.  Any tank who slacks, regardless of class, will likely get his group killed.  I chalk your ignorant statement on this matter up largely to you being full of gnoll dung.  But I digress...<hr size="2" width="100%">Now, don't be pointing fingers at people and calling them dumb noobs, cuz they don't agree with you... <hr size="2" width="100%">Ummm.  Hmmm.  You know it's really hard for me to come up with a reply to this that would do it justice.  I thought about pasting the dictionary definition of irony here, but it would have been too predictable.  I think the quote speaks for itself pretty well.  <hr size="2" width="100%">You come to our forums [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing just because after inspecting your fella guard you find that his stats are slightly better and you get all insulted that your baby pally not as good as guard in stats... that means they are not as good of a tank... bla bla bla... that's just silly dude. <hr size="2" width="100%">Actually, I am consistently surprised by how much better my stats are than those of players at a comparable level of comittment, be they fellow crusaders or warriors.  By that I mean that my gear is actually quite good for somone who spends a lot of his time soloing, rarely raids, and has fewer opportunities to group than he would like.  I get by as well as I do by being smart and resourceful.  I sometimes marvel at how dependant people are on a group for things that I can do on my own with a little perserverence.  If I am insulted by anything it probably has more to do with people of lesser skill getting a free ride because of their class choice.  That, in essence, is what this discussion boils doown to.  <hr size="2" width="100%">the tools are ballanced...<hr size="2" width="100%">I would disagree.  Things could certainly be far worse, but I do not feel that balance has been adequately achieved.  Yet reasonable people can disagree about these things.  However, your point of view loses credibility because of your total disregard for retaining even a shred of impartiality and your heavy reliance on ad hominem attacks constructed in d00d speak. I will take this moment to say that I do not in any way think this guy represents the totality of the guardian class players.  I realize that there are plenty of sober minded people amongst you, and that the poster quoted above represents only thin fragment of your midst. 

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EvilIguana966 wrote:<BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>lol dude, why do you divide this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like that... it doesn't even make sence...<BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P><BR>Mainly because I'm trying to present a general picture of how much of a mitigation advantage a guardian would have <I>on average</I>.  It makes perfect sense in that context, but I will freely admit it is not perfect. <BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>you are not even doing it right since reuse timers don't start till spell expires, not when you just mooshed the button... so redo your math mkay!<BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P><BR>I did not believe this to be the case, but if it is indeed true then consider me corrected.  Most abilities don't operate that way, but some do.  You'll have to excuse me for not having access to a level 70 guardian to play and compare these things. <BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>if you are so bitter about those two [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mit buffs, you definately need to go buy a bigger clinex.  Those buffs are nice but they aren't used as often as you think... i save command for big spikes... tower of stone... what a joke that doesn't even get used that often cuz it breaks your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...<BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P><BR>Immature personal attacks aside, I don't think I classify as bitter.  Well maybe a little, opinions may vary of course.  Interesting you should mention spike damage though.  I'd say that being able to reduce spike damage is a pretty useful thing, perhaps even more useful than constant mitigation.  Spikes are what kill.  As long as damage is coming in consistently the healer(s) can typically handle it.  As for tower of stone, the price to pay is indeed a consideration, but I'd have to say that I'd rather take damage to an item and live than die and take equal damage to every item, and likely have the rest of the group take that damage too.  <FONT color=#ffff33>You got heals and wards instead of tos and mit buffs, it isnt as good as you think anyway, it absorbs 3 attacks, thats it, there are miracles that absorb 10 attacks and even a pally can get those if you think you just gotta have it. Let's see 2% more mit for 30 secs or wards that outright absorb the damage, would call it a no brainer but meh,whatever. Those buffs look better on paper than actual use since EOF they were nerfed to almost uselessness.</FONT><BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>you did miss one true oober spell... Stone Sphere... now that's where my true love is at... you didn't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about it tho... i guess you don't know about it yet... well go find out and come back and make few more whiny replies...<BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P><BR>Again with the personal attacks.  Look I'm not running for office, my character does not really factor into this debate.  I wasn't sure how to classify stone sphere as the spell description is kind of cryptic.  Again I work with what I have available to me, and that does not include a lvl 70 guard character to test with. <BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>Now, i'm not an expert on pallies in any manner, nor am i willing to go and look at your stupid spells and compare them to mine... etc.  that's just waste of my time, considering only good pally is a dead pally to me...</P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P><BR>Yes.  Let's make sure to get any illusions of impartiality firmly dispelled. <BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>We both have nice gear, difference is simply 3-4% in mit and avoid, that's it.  If your guild cannot overcome such a tiny variation then i suggest you start practicing more or you'll never beat any of the new zones, not even if soe gives pallies 50k hp buff.  ANYWAY!  back to the topic, sk can tank just as well, in fact he can keep agro better then me, as for mit buffs, the only difference is that 320 mit i get from aa lines... and he can easily make that up by sucking mit from the mob.</P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P><BR>Ok, if the 3-4% mitigation and 3-4% avoidance differences are so minor and pointless, can I have them then?   Oh ands SKs get a a mitigation tap, Paladins don't.  I'm not really discussing SKs as there are people far better suited to champion their cause than myself.  By the way, nice straw man with the crappy guild cliche.  I suppose pointing out that the question of whether I or my guildmates can or cannot do X is immaterial would be largely fruitless. <BR><FONT color=#ffcc33>If you ask me you want everything guards have and all paladins have and guards get to be subpar, that about sums it up to me, equal to our skills but we get to be unequal to yours. The only situation in this game a guardian has any slight advantage is against raid mobs, and that is debateable. Any other tank in a group situation is gonna be better at aggro generation and tend to take less damage and require leass healing and have f67k tons more utility than a guard will ever have.</FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>The true difference however comes when we talk on how we tank... for me it's simple... all i do is make sure i'm in a proper possition, hit some taunt buttons and watch my hp bar for the spikes... poor sks have to debuff mob and rebuff mid.fight on top of that.  That takes a lot of work, so i find guardian class to be a lazy tank!  the means are different but you can achieve same results at the end tho.  you'll need a slightly different approach for that.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P><BR>So after you attack my competance, you go on to admit that you yourself are not a great player.  Quite frankly, if you do jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e yet perform as well as your SK guildmate while he puts in a ton of effort then the class imbalance is crystal clear.  Thankfully I know that it's not the case.  Any tank who slacks, regardless of class, will likely get his group killed.  I chalk your ignorant statement on this matter up largely to you being full of gnoll dung.  But I digress...<BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>Now, don't be pointing fingers at people and calling them dumb noobs, cuz they don't agree with you...</P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P><BR>Ummm.  Hmmm.  You know it's really hard for me to come up with a reply to this that would do it justice.  I thought about pasting the dictionary definition of irony here, but it would have been too predictable.  I think the quote speaks for itself pretty well. <BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>You come to our forums [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing just because after inspecting your fella guard you find that his stats are slightly better and you get all insulted that your baby pally not as good as guard in stats... that means they are not as good of a tank... bla bla bla... that's just silly dude.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P><BR>Actually, I am consistently surprised by how much better my stats are than those of players at a comparable level of comittment, be they fellow crusaders or warriors.  By that I mean that my gear is actually quite good for somone who spends a lot of his time soloing, rarely raids, and has fewer opportunities to group than he would like.  I get by as well as I do by being smart and resourceful.  I sometimes marvel at how dependant people are on a group for things that I can do on my own with a little perserverence.  If I am insulted by anything it probably has more to do with people of lesser skill getting a free ride because of their class choice.  That, in essence, is what this discussion boils doown to. <BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>the tools are ballanced...<BR></P> <P></P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P><BR>I would disagree.  Things could certainly be far worse, but I do not feel that balance has been adequately achieved.  Yet reasonable people can disagree about these things.  However, your point of view loses credibility because of your total disregard for retaining even a shred of impartiality and your heavy reliance on ad hominem attacks constructed in d00d speak.<BR><BR>I will take this moment to say that I do not in any way think this guy represents the totality of the guardian class players.  I realize that there are plenty of sober minded people amongst you, and that the poster quoted above represents only thin fragment of your midst. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>You know what, walk a day in a guardian's shoes then come tell us this crap. My guild leader is a paladin, he tried a zerker which doesnt play alot different than a guardian, he didnt like it, said that while he tanked fine and all he just didnt have the tools his paladin had and found it more frustrating to play. Guard's tank and that is all we do, no heals(not a single one, only tank that doesnt) no invis no evac no feign death nothing, and we dont even tank the best in all situations, we are good at taking big spike alpha strikes for about 30 secs, any other time any other tank is better, period. And guess what? Zerkers have the same mit buffs we do, only difference is they do more dps, dont have ToS, and hold aggro better on multiples. Why aren't you whining that zerkers outclass ya too? I'll tell ya why, they dont and you know it.</FONT><BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>Message Edited by Aethane on <span class=date_text>11-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:36 AM</span>

[Super Du]

<DIV>lol what a noob... did you have time reading every word i typed five times, then asking your mom what she thinks about your reply?  </DIV> <DIV>honestly honey, you need to spend your time in a more constructive way... go whine on devs forums maybe they'll give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about your feelings.  maybe they'll even give you an oober ability that absorbs 3 hits and breaks your chest piece... that'll make you happy and all the man lovers in your guild as well.  HEEHEE,it's pretty clear that you're full of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when u come in here crying about guardians being too powerful, get a life honestly... u have the tools even tho u fail to admit it... you simply want more... power hungry fool... if they give you anymore they'll have to give everyone else more... and that'll make them work overtime... which is baaaaaaaaaaaaad mkay! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hell yeah i'm a lazy tank, after doing every freaking zone 40 times u just wanna belch upon zoning in... i know what to do and how to do it, you can call me a bad tank, not that i care what you think n'way, but we both know that by your own view you'll never be half the tank i am har har!  I honestly dunno what crawled up your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], maybe it's that you run around every class forum and post this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to somehow influence entire community of inferrior pally abilities or you just need a pet on a head after being kicked out o fyour own forums for spamming worthless garbage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See i even made spaces for you to flame, won't be as hard now, Until you have played a class for a bit you will not have any valid point on that class... you can read all you want, but it'll never give you a full perception of the class.  If you wanted to be an oober raid tank why didn't you read roleplayer notes?  it says it pretty clear... you wanted to roleplay savior of humanity, then go roleplay, nobody is going to adopt game around you, in general you just need to learn how to deal with what you have, not whine about what you don't</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, go play in serker boards, tell um how you want rage so u can hold agro better i think it's clear that nobody going to miss ya here.  Anyguards out there with a buckler?  /cry no?</DIV>

[highlander]

<P>To derail the topic back to CoV..</P> <P>Any guards here having issues tanking CoV with a buckler in offensive mode with 1 healer?  Other than spike dmg on some of the yellow con werewolves its very doable using just a buckler in off stance.</P> <P>Of course, your healer misses one cure and your as dead as a Paladin...</P> <P>X</P>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> highlander13 wrote:<BR> <P>To derail the topic back to CoV..</P> <P>Any guards here having issues tanking CoV with a buckler in offensive mode with 1 healer?  Other than spike dmg on some of the yellow con werewolves its very doable using just a buckler in off stance.</P> <P>Of course, your healer misses one cure and your as dead as a Paladin...</P> <P>X</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I tanked it with a buckler in defense mode just fine, tanking in offense mode imo is just askin to die.

[Greatslo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aethane wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> highlander13 wrote:<BR> <P>To derail the topic back to CoV..</P> <P>Any guards here having issues tanking CoV with a buckler in offensive mode with 1 healer?  Other than spike dmg on some of the yellow con werewolves its very doable using just a buckler in off stance.</P> <P>Of course, your healer misses one cure and your as dead as a Paladin...</P> <P>X</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I tanked it with a buckler in defense mode just fine, tanking in offense mode imo is just askin to die.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Seriously is your group that lacking in DPS that you need to tank in offensive mode with 1 healer?<BR>

[zormik]

<P>I think guards got some decent aa's and their buffs are very meaningfull now in eof.</P> <P>The offensive skills and defensive skills are both in the repertoire of the guardian and that is the most important thing to buff now since eof ( c/s/p and parry/defense).</P> <P>Guardians are very good as they are and they got together with the sk's a lot of love this xpack.  I'm happy for both, i just hope that the zerk gets a little bit help with the c/s/p and then i'm happy too (i'm not even asking the aa's to be as strong as the guardian aa's)...</P> <P>I feel for the pally's that want to tank though.  They are getting pushed towards utility and they do that well but if you wanna tank raids, you're just not gonna be as potent as a warrior or sk...</P>

[Salarionn]

 HAHA to the Pally complaining about using massive amounts of power.... You really need to spend more time around a Gaurdian. We are and always have been the biggest power users. Drop your Amends on the local nut in your group and you dont have to do much !!  

[highlander]

<P>Its all about the curing.  The melee autoattack damage doesn't really do anything to us..  As a guard our natural defense is high and if we have a dirge singing us a parry song....  We're gods.</P> <P>Now, having said that..  If your healer misses a trauma dot that does 2K/tick..  You'll go down faster than a Pally with aggro.</P> <P>X</P>

[highlander]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aethane wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> highlander13 wrote:<BR> <P>To derail the topic back to CoV..</P> <P>Any guards here having issues tanking CoV with a buckler in offensive mode with 1 healer?  Other than spike dmg on some of the yellow con werewolves its very doable using just a buckler in off stance.</P> <P>Of course, your healer misses one cure and your as dead as a Paladin...</P> <P>X</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I tanked it with a buckler in defense mode just fine, tanking in offense mode imo is just askin to die.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Seriously is your group that lacking in DPS that you need to tank in offensive mode with 1 healer?<BR> <P></P> <DIV>Bulwark Meatpants - 70 Guardian of Havoc<BR>Envee Hawtpants - 70 SK Midgie of Havoc</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a Guard I'm just tired of templar's out DPSing me in def stance.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV>

[EvilIguana9]

<div><blockquote><hr>Salarionn wrote:<div></div> HAHA to the Pally complaining about using massive amounts of power.... You really need to spend more time around a Gaurdian. We are and always have been the biggest power users. Drop your Amends on the local nut in your group and you dont have to do much !!  <hr></blockquote>It's misconceptions like this that really get the blood boiling.  First off, you are wrong about power consumption.  If I want to counteract incoming damage, I have to chain cast some very power hungry spells.  Second, even when Amends is not bugged because somone else used a hate transfer on me or on the target or because the random bug generator landed on "screw up amends", I still cannot slack if I plan to hold aggro.  Really my biggest complaint with my class is how buggy Amends is.  It needs to work as reliably as any other fighter's hate abilities. The one thing I can say about warrior tanking vs crusader tanking at this moment, is that the gap is not consistent across gear quality levels.  As stated in <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=118808&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>this thread</a>, the new mitigation curve is pretty harsh.  Therefore, fabled guardians and zerkers will see extremely small mitigation improvements from their buffs and AA.  Of course, Paladins can't get naked and still have 50% mit, but I'll ignore that since it's a rather obvious bug and is likely not going to last all that long.  But anyway, back to the topic at hand, when you get very high in mitigation, the severity in the diminishing returns curve may actually make my heals/wards more useful than your mit buffs, assuming I can cast them without being interrupted.  However, down here at 4k ish standing mit when solo, the difference is more pronounced.  Now, just to dispell the myths about what I want.  I don't want guards nerfed.  In fact, I'd like them to make the mit curve less drastic, which will actually help you guys.  I also don't want to be the preferred raid tank.  Really, all I want is for my ward and heal to be faster casting, and amends to not get bugged so much.  I think that would pretty much even us up when tanking hard heroic content.  Basically, I'd be able to more reliably blow all my power staying alive.  Is that really so objectionable to you folks?</div>

[aias]

I leveled a 60 pali to level 70.  There are a fun class to play and enjoyed using their various utilities.   And I agree with you Kylahn.  The most irritating things I noticed were the interupts on healing, long casting times, the inability to cast on the run and the power consumption.  Trying to patch the real issues by giving crusaders tower shields and bows didn't solve it.  Like trying to cover the smell with perfume. :smileytongue:

[Giral]

<DIV> <DIV>on my lvl 23 Guardian , all app 3 or app 4,with 2 Adpt 1's  , in all player crafted gear, and drop quested jewelry(some a bit outdated)  and i have 10 AA points in stam/str/buckler reversal </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i was soloing level 18 ^ ^ ^ elephants,17 ^ ^ ^ Vulriches and lvl 17 or 18  ^ ^ ^ Stone Gaurdian(dont remeber there correct names )  outside near  FallenGate </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i also Soloed Captain Gear and Captian Olof for lightstone Hq ( both have ben nerfed tho , but both took my to OOP and a sliver of health at the end )  might have been lvl 24 for this not sure </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>at level 24 Dou with a wizzy that mentored me , we Dou'd High Priest Valimar , died on the frist attempt and killed him on the second ; ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im not very skilled with the guardian yet, i still dont know what skils are best to start <move to next<finsh with , etc,  but with my average skill and knowledge of the class so far im able to VS  ^ ^ ^ 5 lvls lower then me ,  and i myself am quite suprised at that : ) i have a lvl 70 SK 50 AA's legendary/fabled 12 masters/adept 3'd , MOA , etc...  and could solo  ^ ^ ^ mobs 4 levels lower then myself ( Befor EOF  havent played him much since EOF been havin a blast with my Fae Guardian : ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try Picking your fights better to see what you have an Easier time soloing, if the  ^ ^ ^ elephants were Wizzies im sure i would have been Toast , they seemed to be doing Crushing damage( guessing here)  so i was able to absorb the Brunt of the damage , scout around, try various mobs , see what ones you do better on , you cant just walk up and solo anything in your path , </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Super Sapper]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toilet humour wrote:<BR> <DIV>Quick question guys have you been nerfed real bad as i have spoken to a couple of guards that are now taking a "break" and playing their alts till they are fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to get a general view on this from the guard player base.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>being that they got rid of the mit advantage we had by scaling down its usefulness when more is obtained... yes sk's and pallies tank just as well as we do now.. plus they can heal and sks can dps and debuff quiet nicely.. </P> <P>essentially all plate tanks can tank the same zerkers do most dps pallies heal the best sks debuff and do nice dps.. guards jsut tank.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God, you're such a noob. A similarly decked out guardian has almost 3% more mitigation (fully fabled out) 3% more avoidance and almost 1k more hit points then a paladin (note this is with the hero line complete on paladin classes...otherwise you have 7% more avoidance). This is FACT not fiction. Keep in mind that guardian's defensive stances include parry abilities...crusaders don't get this luxery. With avoidance being USEFUL now on raids and grouping...warriors own. Hell I don't even tank anymore, I have a brawler or warrior do it since they do a much better job now. Your aa lines are actually USEFUL to you, whereas the paladin class gets totally shafted. You have the ability to absorb blows outright, and have several different abilities (draconic reflexes for one) which makes you totally immune to damage for brief periods (to include another end tanking one on your hero line). We have 1 total abiliity that lasts now 10 seconds on the stamina line AND IS STILL BROKE!. Mitigation is less a factor then before, but 1k more mitigation then a paladin will still matter with this expansion...no matter what the cap is. If you have the gear I do, come talk to me.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I can understand what you're saying totally from a raid perspective; however these nerfs indirectly crippled the already weak soloing abiltiies of the Guardian class. When it comes to any solo encounter, a Crusader is much, much better off. The combination of a Guardian's sub-par DPS and their now dramatically weakened damage absorption versus green / blue heroics means fights last too long and there's absolutely no effective way of healing yourself or controlling the mob.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>It's all well and good saying soloing is insignificant and anyone not in a raid guild is a noob, but there are more players who spend the majority of their time solo or in a small group than there are raiding.</FONT> It's also rather infuriating as a Guardian in full-fabled to struggle with encounters a Crusader in treasured junk could take down.</P> <P>It's also all well and good saying you shouldn't be able to solo heroics anyway; but let's face it, soloing anything else is a waste of time, and pretty much every class in the game solos better than a Guardian.</P> <P>I see it as a shame the balance exists in such an extreme fashion, but if Guardians cease to be the #1 raid tank in most situations, (which whether Fighters want to admit it or not, is exactly what they're asking for when they say their class "can't" tank raids, or is 5% worse than a Guardian), they'd [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well better be given a significant dps boost or line of utility/solo abilties. I'm the first person to encourage nerfs that make all content less mindless, and pray to god zones like mistmoore stay as they are, but it's a shame they see nerfing tanks mitigation as a better alternative to reducing heals and buffs, when really they should be nerfed simultaneously.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>DUDE IF YOU WANT DECENT DPS GO BUCKLER REVERSAL. MY BROTHER PLAYES GUARDIAN HE TOOK THIS LINE TO TRY IT OUT FOR A JOKE HE WAS ACTUALLY CLOCKING IN TOP 10 ON THE DPS LIST ON THE RAID WHEN HE MT'ED (BEFORE MIT NERF PATCH)</P> <P>IN THE GROUP HE WOULD PARSE RIGHT BEHIND ME ON DPS, PLUS THIS LINE MAKES IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO STEAL THE AGGRO FROM HIM<BR></P>