Take me back to the good ole days...

[Waldo2]

Pre LU13, do you guys remember? I hear they are gonna make brawlers able to tank raid mobs. Doesnt this [Removed for Content] you guys off? I mean we are already replaced by zerkers and now they add brawlers whats next! Shadowknights will be better tanks. I'll telling you guys SOE is against the Guardian!now dont get me wrong we still rock, but how many updates have been done to the Guard sence lu13? maybe 1 or two and dont give me crap about how we are perfect.SOE WHY DO YOU HATE US?    - a disgruntaled complaining old fat ogre guardian<div></div>

[EpokSilvermo]

<font size="1">disgruntaled complaining old fat</font> ogre guardians are so pathetic, even slighty more than barbarian guardians  <span>:smileytongue:</span>

[Verlaine]

I would have to agree with you there.  If they want them to be able to tank epic targets, then they should raise our dps to match theirs.

[BetaMaster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Waldo2k2 wrote:<BR>Pre LU13, do you guys remember? I hear they are gonna make brawlers able to tank raid mobs. Doesnt this [Removed for Content] you guys off? I mean we are already replaced by zerkers and now they add brawlers whats next! Shadowknights will be better tanks. I'll telling you guys SOE is against the Guardian!<BR><BR>now dont get me wrong we still rock, but how many updates have been done to the Guard sence lu13? maybe 1 or two and dont give me crap about how we are perfect.<BR><BR>SOE WHY DO YOU HATE US?<BR><BR>    - a disgruntaled complaining old fat ogre guardian<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>There is a difference between being able to tank raid mobs and being able to tank WELL!</P> <P>They may be able to tank lowbie style raid mobs but not top end.  Those are reserved for plate tanks for the most part, mainly guards.  We still rule the world, don't be scared.</P>

[JudyJudy]

<DIV><EM>Here's a response I gave in the monk forums.  It just gives a different point of view from a tanking brawler.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>*snip*</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ffff33>Too be honest, and I'm not speaking for every tanking monk out there but merely giving my opinion based on my playstyle and roles I've chosen, I believe that many of the tanking monks out there wish to have tools to make tanking more viable in the raid setting.  <STRONG><U>This does not always mean being in the MT position</U>.</STRONG></FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff33>For example, in a raiding scenario:</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff33>If mobs happen to peel from the MT - having the ability pull those mobs back to the MT with the confidence of not being one-shotted.  Let's face it - Many raid mob CA's and the "to-hit" modifiers of most epics will just eat through our Tsunami.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff33>Having the ability to rescue when the MT/MA go down - buying time for the healers to scramble with a quick rez, with (once again) the confidence of not being one-shotted.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff33>Assuming the MA position of a raid with the same thoughts in mind.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff33>Off-Tanking mobs with the same thoughts in mind.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff33>So you see, many of the tanking monks in our community do not seek the glory of the MT position, contradictory to what people may think.  Sure it's fun, sure I'll do it if asked.  But we too want to be a solid part of the raid offering options that can ensure a successful experience other than just mediocre DPS.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff33>And the monks built to tank, by sacraficing dps - should have the tools to do just that in my opinion.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM>*snip*</EM></P> <P><EM>On a side note...  and realize I mean this in the most respectful way --> </EM><EM>I hope you guys are sweating it.  Competition is the forebearer of excellence.  :smileywink:</EM></P></DIV>

[Waldo2]

so far a zerker can tank everything a guard can and do it well, yeah we are still the best but its getting slimmer and slimmer, I made a guardian to tank epic monks should stop complaining if you wanted to tank you should have picked a plat class. secondly i dont know if you guys agree but tanking groups with a guardian is probly the most boring thing to do in this game besides harvesting. SO WE EARNED IT we are deff not the best group tanks (powerwise) so thats why we rock raids now they are gonna take it away from us guys!! DONT LET IT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN HIT WITH THE NERF BAT ONCE DONT LET ROUND 2 HAPPEN start complaing like monks do!!! STILL ANGRY FAT OGRE<div></div>

[aias]

Sounds like your bored as well.

[Danan]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Waldo2k2 wrote:<BR>Pre LU13, do you guys remember? I hear they are gonna make brawlers able to tank raid mobs. Doesnt this [Removed for Content] you guys off? I mean we are already replaced by zerkers and now they add brawlers whats next! Shadowknights will be better tanks. I'll telling you guys SOE is against the Guardian!<BR><BR>now dont get me wrong we still rock, but how many updates have been done to the Guard sence lu13? maybe 1 or two and dont give me crap about how we are perfect.<BR><BR>SOE WHY DO YOU HATE US?<BR><BR>    - a disgruntaled complaining old fat ogre guardian<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Now you do know that ou can do really decent dps right?</DIV> <DIV>Let me quote one of your fellow Guardians, and <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=39374#M39374" target=_blank>here</A> is the link to the post</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BULLPUPP wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am not thrilled with the new AA line, especially compared to the original 50 AA's. The original AA line made me what I an today....a rare offensive Guardian. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure it cost me lots of time and plats but now I am a freak. I have my offensive stance and all offensive skills mastered. Good gear and a good one hander/buckler.I spent 50p respecing AA's to get the best DPS for ME and MY gear. I usually parse 800-1500 in raid situations. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am also usful for buffs, intercepts, etc.. I love the roll of my Guard, although sometimes it's tough convincing groups that I am DPS and not a tank. Guildies call me "a platescout" LOL. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Billybaroo </DIV> <DIV>the "DPS Guardian"</DIV> <DIV>Oasis server  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Maybe its just that you do not prioritize in favor of dps, but it is not impossible to do DPS compared to DPS Brawlers. But then again my Bruiser doesnt do the same DPS as a DPS Bruiser but that is because i didnt go that path when it came to AA's.<BR></DIV> <DIV>Now the good old days you are talking about was full of bugs and flaws in the way combat and threat was generated, and you will never see anything like that ever again.</DIV>

[JudyJudy]

<EM>Priceless...</EM><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Waldo2k2 wrote:<BR> made a guardian to tank epic monks should stop complaining if you wanted to tank you should have picked a plat class <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P><EM>You earn nothing, my plate-wearing, disgruntled, green, over-weight brother - based on what class you choose or the role you've chosen to play.  The actions on your server will earn your position.</EM></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Waldo2k2 wrote:<BR>secondly i dont know if you guys agree but tanking groups with a guardian is probly the most boring thing to do in this game besides harvesting. <FONT color=#ff0000 size=4><U>SO WE EARNED IT</U></FONT> we are deff not the best group tanks (powerwise) so thats why we rock raids now they are gonna take it away from us guys!! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><EM>You know...  There are special programs for this.  Perhaps running more and riding less would do you good.  Oh yeah.  And stay away from gnome dishes.  They're high in calories.</EM></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Waldo2k2 wrote:<BR> <BR>STILL ANGRY FAT OGRE<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BetaMaster wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Waldo2k2 wrote:<BR>Pre LU13, do you guys remember? I hear they are gonna make brawlers able to tank raid mobs. Doesnt this [Removed for Content] you guys off? I mean we are already replaced by zerkers and now they add brawlers whats next! Shadowknights will be better tanks. I'll telling you guys SOE is against the Guardian!<BR><BR>now dont get me wrong we still rock, but how many updates have been done to the Guard sence lu13? maybe 1 or two and dont give me crap about how we are perfect.<BR><BR>SOE WHY DO YOU HATE US?<BR><BR>    - a disgruntaled complaining old fat ogre guardian<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>There is a difference between being able to tank raid mobs and being able to tank WELL!</P> <P>They may be able to tank lowbie style raid mobs but not top end.  Those are reserved for plate tanks for the most part, mainly guards.  We still rule the world, don't be scared.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>eveb so it seems like every patch every other tnka class gets to tnak better and with the exceptions of i think it was live 11 which we ere nerfed hardcore.. we have had no tnkaing upgrades.. yet every patch every class can pretty much tnka better but our ability remians the same in every way... I mean monk tanking epics fine whatever.. but then can u at laest fix our dumb dmg soak lines??? for the love of norrath <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Waldo2]

its was lu13 where we got nerfd from being gods, but what I am saying is they are making all the other tanks better where the hell is out boost, yeah we can do some DPS BUT I NEVER WANTED TO DO DPS if i wanted to dps i'd picked a dps class I wanna tank so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] make me tank better. I know dps = better tanking, but before the AAs guardians didnt need DPS we still dont but my point is we are being ignored by SOE while everyone else is getting better we sit here the same. and yes i was bored and i have poor gramar 8( sorry blame my ogre ness<div></div>

[aias]

<P>So what you're saying is you'd like to go back to pre-LU13 where you could just hit a couple taunt buttons and enjoy looking at nudie magazines on your bed.  :smileysad:</P>

[Waldo2]

yes, and dont forget the ability to tank naked<div></div>

[Waldo2]

so what your telling me is you guys dont wanna be a walking god again?<div></div>

[Zeenon13]

<div></div>I wish you had the experience of playing a 70 monk.  Guardians have everything so easy when it comes to tanking, and now recently dps.  I have recently been playing my guilds MT guardian when he isnt available, and its a freaking joke how easy you have it.  Maybe if you played a class that takes skill to tank for once, you wouldn't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] so much.  Go play a monk, bruiser, sk, pally...  You probably wouldn't make these posts about how every other fighter is getting so good, and your going nowhere.  Play the other classes in a raid environment, then tell me your not gods.  Seriously, I cant believe how many guardians [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...<div></div><p>Message Edited by Zeenon13 on <span class=date_text>11-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 PM</span>

[Terron]

<blockquote><hr>Waldo2k2 wrote:but how many updates have been done to the Guard sence lu13? maybe 1 or two and dont give me crap about how we are perfect.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Most updates since LU13 (which happened just before I started) have made life as a guard who mainly solos easier. We certainly are not perfect, if we are not being a raid main tank we are doing something that another class could do better, but we are far better than when I started and found blue solo mobs too dangerous to tackle alone.<div></div>

[Waldo2]

If have played a pally to lvl 40 and i have had no problems tanking at all. If i were gonna make a monk or bruiser I WOULDNT EXPECT to tank raid mobs. So dont tell me that we got it easy cause zerkers got it easy<div></div>

[Zeenon13]

Play a 70 raid geared fighter of any kind and go MT.  Guardian and Zerker absolutely have it 10 times easier than a crusader, and 100 times easier than a brawler.  Your comparing tanking heroic content on a noob 40 pally...GGYour 1 track mind will take this conversation nowhere fast.<div></div>

[Waldo2]

cause we were talking about group tanks dude. and I have played MT for a successful guild back in t6 and quit t7 and then came back, what I am saying is brawlers should not be raid tanks. WHATS NEXT they gonna let brigands and swashies tank too?<div></div>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Waldo2k2 wrote:<BR>cause we were talking about group tanks dude. and I have played MT for a successful guild back in t6 and quit t7 and then came back, <FONT color=#ffff00>what I am saying is brawlers should not be raid tanks</FONT>. WHATS NEXT they gonna let brigands and swashies tank too?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And why is that? you can DPS just fine if you set yourself up for it, so a Brawler tank that is set up for tanking should be able to tank just as well.<BR>

[Zeenon13]

A brawler is a fighter archtype, so stop [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing complaining about them maybe even hinting at letting us not get 1 shotted.  Even if we could stand in front of the mobs with the next round of changes, we will never be a MT choice since we have no aggro tricks like warriors.  And guess what??? Swashies and Brigs, basically any scout takes less damange than a brawler right now.  So were an extremely broken class, and your a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Think i covered it all.<div></div>

[Sir_Halbarad]

I definitely don't want to go back to the pre LU13 world... and I don't want to go back to the immediate post LU 13 world. Those were hard times for Guardian...The OP raises some valid questions though.- If Berserkers have 95% of the tanking a Guard has but 200% of a Guard's dps (which enables aggro lock), where is the point for a Guard?- With the new mitigation formula, the mitigation advance of Warriors over Brawlers is dwindling. With mitigation being one of the most important stats for an MT, Guards lose some of their (already slim) advantage. What do Guards get in exchange for that?- A dps Guard has to use a buckler while neither a Zerker nor a Brawler needs that to do very good dps. I do not know whether you can still tank epic content with a buckler. If you can't, the days of the MT Guard who can hold aggro as good as a Zerker because of double attack are over. Have Guard MT grps have to have a Coercer, Dirge, Swash AND Assassin in them now?<div></div>Mind you, I am happy with my Guardian. And I know the personal skill makes you a good tank. But if I have to give 100% and a truckload of plat to be able to do the same a 50% slacking Fighter XY can do, I think there is something wrong <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[lostsandman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sir_Halbarad wrote:<BR>I definitely don't want to go back to the pre LU13 world... and I don't want to go back to the immediate post LU 13 world. Those were hard times for Guardian...<BR><BR>The OP raises some valid questions though.<BR><BR>- If Berserkers have 95% of the tanking a Guard has but 200% of a Guard's dps (which enables aggro lock), where is the point for a Guard?<BR><BR>- With the new mitigation formula, the mitigation advance of Warriors over Brawlers is dwindling. With mitigation being one of the most important stats for an MT, Guards lose some of their (already slim) advantage. What do Guards get in exchange for that?<BR><BR>- A dps Guard has to use a buckler while neither a Zerker nor a Brawler needs that to do very good dps. I do not know whether you can still tank epic content with a buckler.  <FONT color=#ff0066>I tanked Harl Dar on sunday and of the 10 miss she had againt me 8 were Block and 2 were Parry. I  Was using Tower shield. Block is better than all other forms of avoidance. There is 10% less Block on buckler, me thinks the its game over for Buckler Guards. Sad really since the DPS we got via the Buckler helped us to solo better </FONT>If you can't, the days of the MT Guard who can hold aggro as good as a Zerker because of double attack are over. Have Guard MT grps have to have a Coercer, Dirge, Swash AND Assassin in them now?<BR> <BR>Mind you, I am happy with my Guardian. And I know the personal skill makes you a good tank. But if I have to give 100% and a truckload of plat to be able to do the same a 50% slacking Fighter XY can do, I think there is something wrong <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Zeenon13]

When I raid MT with our guardian i zonewide parse around 1200.  A good zerker might do what... 1400?  Two times the dps?  Hardly.  Your doing something wrong if you cant break 1K EASILY on a guardian.<div></div>

[lostsandman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zeenon13 wrote:<BR>When I raid MT with our guardian i zonewide parse around 1200.  A good zerker might do what... 1400?  Two times the dps?  Hardly.  Your doing something wrong if you cant break 1K EASILY on a guardian.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have not broken 1k DPS but then i don't have fabled 1h. The best i have gotten so far is about 850zone wide normally its around 600 - 700 (buckler spec that is). </P> <P>We don't have the best raid set up (we are casual guild with random people all the tiem on raids <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) may be that the reason or may be i suck badly <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Salarionn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zeenon13 wrote:<BR>When I raid MT with our guardian i zonewide parse around 1200.  A good zerker might do what... 1400?  Two times the dps?  Hardly.  Your doing something wrong if you cant break 1K EASILY on a guardian.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>    PUT THE PIPE DOWN !!! I have raided every mob in this game and you cant tell me you have a guardian parsing over 1k on a raid named !! I will say simply this ... you sir  ARE A LIAR !! You cant tell me that he/she has parsed over 1k for a whole zone either. The timers on our CA are simply to long to keep 1k dps. The mt for our guild who has the best gear the game has to offer pretty much maybe MAYBE will parse 700-800 dps for a zone. That is including all the added dps he gets from DS and what not from other classes!<p>Message Edited by Salarionn on <span class=date_text>11-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:25 AM</span>

[Ruwen71]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Waldo2k2 wrote:<BR>cause we were talking about group tanks dude. and I have played MT for a successful guild back in t6 and quit t7 and then came back, <FONT color=#ffff00>what I am saying is brawlers should not be raid tanks</FONT>. WHATS NEXT they gonna let brigands and swashies tank too?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And why is that? you can DPS just fine if you set yourself up for it, so a Brawler tank that is set up for tanking should be able to tank just as well.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Okay I normally don't jump into pointless conversations particularly those between bruisers and guards and tanking. But this has got to be the funniest thing I've ever heard. I don't mean that as a slight against you Dananeb it's just that this mind set goes against every thing I've ever thought of in regards to having different fighter classes. Saying that a Bruiser should be able to tank just as well as a Guard is just like saying that an Inquisitor should be able to do as much dps as a Fury. Our classes are on opposite ends of the fighter spectrum. I agree that you should be able to tank and tank well but saying that you should be able tank just as well as a Guard is over the edge.</P> <P>I am a Guard, I have lower dps, lower survivability, and lower soloability built in to my class in exchange for being the best raid tank in the game. I don't want FD, heals, or high dps. I just want to tank. I have no problem with any other class tanking but to be able to tank just as well as me.... I'm sorry but that would be a serious flaw in the game.</P> <P>Well EoF is here... will the Guard survive? Sure it will but the role outside of raids and perhaps in them is becoming increasingly smaller.</P> <P>Come to think of it Vanguard is looking better every day. Not because of the game play or classes but because I've yet to see one person whining on their boards about how their class should be able to do what all the other classes do. Just out of curiosity Dananeb, are you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing on the Pally boards that they can heal better than you?</P>

[JudyJudy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ruwen71 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Not because of the game play or classes but because I've yet to see one person whining on their boards about how their class should be able to do what all the other classes do.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>Most in the brawler community don't want what other classes want - We just want to be able to fill our primary role in the raid scene without such a HUGE gap between the warrior and the brawler.  It's that simple.</EM></P> <P><EM>We're a hybrid class.  We can gear toward DPS, tanking or a little of both.</EM></P> <P><EM>So I'll say it again.  Those of us who sacrafice DPS should have the ability to tank better and narrow the gap between the warrior and the brawler in the raid scene.</EM></P> <P><EM>Sony seems to agree.  They've revamped avoidance, epic mob to-hit ratios and given us new tanking AA lines.</EM></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#6699ff>6.  Enhance:  Beckon </FONT></STRONG>-- Classification:  Awareness-- Cost per rank:  1 -- Ranks:  5 -- Prerequisite:  Requires 1 or 2 @ rank 3<BR>Increases the taunt amount of Beckon and its higher level upgrades<BR></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#999999><STRIKE>Increases taunt amount by 3%</STRIKE></FONT> <LI><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases taunt amount by 4%</FONT></LI></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#6699ff>7.  Enhance:  Martial Order </FONT></STRONG>-- Classification:  Awareness -- Cost per rank:  1 -- Ranks:  5 -- Prerequisite:  Requires 2 or 3 @ rank 3<BR><FONT color=#999999><STRIKE>Adds hate transfer to Martial Order and its higher level upgrades</STRIKE></FONT><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Martial Order and its upgrades also cause opponents attacking your protected target to focus some of their hatred at you.</FONT><BR></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#999999><STRIKE>Adds hate transfer by 1%</STRIKE></FONT> <LI><FONT color=#ff0000>1% of target's hate is transfered to you</FONT></LI></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#6699ff>16.  Enhance:  Face of the Mountain </FONT></STRONG>-- Classification:  Body -- Cost per rank:  1 -- Ranks:  5 -- Prerequisite:  Requires 13 or 14 @ rank 3<BR>Increases the mitigation of Face of the Mountain and its higher level upgrades<BR></P> <UL> <LI>I<STRIKE><FONT color=#999999>ncreases crush, slash, and pierce resists by 3%</FONT></STRIKE> <LI><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases crush, slash, and pierce resists by 10%</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>Why did they do this?  Because we're tanks.  Not situational.  Not sometimes.  Not maybe.  </EM></FONT><EM><FONT color=#ffffff>The role we play is ultimately up to the guild leader, raid coordinator, the voice we make for ourselves and the reputation we establish.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffffff>These tools - along with the tank geared brawler - can be a worthy asset to any raid - MT or not.  </FONT></EM><EM><FONT color=#ffffff>We just want the ability to fulfill our primary role while sustaining a viable need within a raid other than moderate DPS and group FD.</FONT></EM></P>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ruwen71 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Waldo2k2 wrote:<BR>cause we were talking about group tanks dude. and I have played MT for a successful guild back in t6 and quit t7 and then came back, <FONT color=#ffff00>what I am saying is brawlers should not be raid tanks</FONT>. WHATS NEXT they gonna let brigands and swashies tank too?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And why is that? you can DPS just fine if you set yourself up for it, so a Brawler tank that is set up for tanking should be able to tank just as well.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Okay I normally don't jump into pointless conversations particularly those between bruisers and guards and tanking. But this has got to be the funniest thing I've ever heard. I don't mean that as a slight against you Dananeb it's just that this mind set goes against every thing I've ever thought of in regards to having different fighter classes. Saying that a Bruiser should be able to tank just as well as a Guard is just like saying that an Inquisitor should be able to do as much dps as a Fury. Our classes are on opposite ends of the fighter spectrum. I agree that you should be able to tank and tank well but saying that you should be able tank just as well as a Guard is over the edge.</P> <P>I am a Guard, I have lower dps, lower survivability, and lower soloability built in to my class in exchange for being the best raid tank in the game. I don't want FD, heals, or high dps. I just want to tank. I have no problem with any other class tanking but to be able to tank just as well as me.... I'm sorry but that would be a serious flaw in the game.</P> <P>Well EoF is here... will the Guard survive? Sure it will but the role outside of raids and perhaps in them is becoming increasingly smaller.</P> <P>Come to think of it Vanguard is looking better every day. Not because of the game play or classes but because I've yet to see one person whining on their boards about how their class should be able to do what all the other classes do. Just out of curiosity Dananeb, are you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing on the Pally boards that they can heal better than you?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I've already show you previously in this post about Guardians that parse very high when the AA's are not concentrated on tanking but DPS, so why should'nt it be possible for a Brawler to tank equally when his AA's are geared towards tanking?

[Waldo2]

yes you guys see my point. they are giving everyone else abilities to tank with out taking away anything!<div></div>

[Memmoch]

The people that come to the forum's and whine about how their class should be just as good as another is one of the main failing's in this game.  Sony trying to make everyone happy is turning this game into one craptastic product.  If you wanted to tank as well as a guardian you should of rolled a guardian.  If I wanted to dps and have the surviveability of a brawler I would of rolled a brawler.  Please stop this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] already, leave a bit of difference between the classes so that people can play the different classes and say to themselves "yep, this is different I do/don't like this style over my main".  It baffles me to no end why you would come to a guardian thread and make statement's about how a brawler should tank as well as a guardian (the most defensivly built tank in the game).  Give it a rest, your a hybrid and as such you much deal with the pluses and minuses of having a class with a wide range of options.  <div></div>

[Ruwen71]

<P>First to Kaio. I think I agree with you on all parts of your post and to everyone else, please don't take anything I've said as bashing brawlers. And to you Kaio I apologize for my whining comment. I'd also like to add that the bruisers and monks I've played with have always been awesome and are often vital to the success of a raid and as I said before, I agree that you guys should be able to tank and tank well.</P> <P>Now in regards to the brawlers that come to the Guardian boards to whine... please go away. You're just a pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and you're making the rest of the people that play your class look like idiots. As Kaio said, "<EM><FONT color=#ffff00>The role we play is ultimately up to the guild leader, raid coordinator, the voice we make for ourselves and the reputation we establish.</FONT></EM>"</P>

[Kasar]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salarionn wrote:<BR> <BR>    PUT THE PIPE DOWN !!! I have raided every mob in this game and you cant tell me you have a guardian parsing over 1k on a raid named !! I will say simply this ... you sir  ARE A LIAR !! You cant tell me that he/she has parsed over 1k for a whole zone either. The timers on our CA are simply to long to keep 1k dps. The mt for our guild who has the best gear the game has to offer pretty much maybe MAYBE will parse 700-800 dps for a zone. That is including all the added dps he gets from DS and what not from other classes! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's all I was thinking, procs from buffs, but I don't know of THAT many.  A MT who's doing that sort of DPS won't have the power remaining to taunt.</P> <P>Of course, the dev posts say guards are best for group aggro, but for regular groups, I'll sideline my guard for a zerker to tank any day.  Can run through trash much faster and their out-of-encounter aggro gains are better.</P>

[Zeenon13]

planar axe of destruction, buckler spec'd...100% dps mod and 23% haste.  He does the numbers, if you cant...sorry.<div></div>

[Salarionn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zeenon13 wrote:<BR>planar axe of destruction, buckler spec'd...<BR><BR>100% dps mod and 23% haste.  He does the numbers, if you cant...sorry.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>   copy/paste

[notyou]

Umm.. can we put to rest brawlers tanking raids yet?From what I've heard, though I havn't been on a raid yet myself, mobs are hitting even harder than before if you are wearing PLATE... let alone leather.Please someone post if you've seen a brawler tanking something epic...<div></div>

[Rah]

<DIV>Palying Devils advocate here...</DIV> <DIV>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EOF Monk AA specs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#6699ff>11.  Alternate:  Mongoose Stance </FONT></STRONG>-- Classification:  Awareness -- Cost per rank:  1 -- Ranks:  5 -- Prerequisite:  Requires 6 or 7 @ rank 3<BR>As an alternative to Dragon Stance, this stance has a chance of refucing the target's hate towards the monk on a successful strike<BR></DIV> <UL> <LI>On a successful strike this spell has a <STRIKE><FONT color=#999999>higher than normal</FONT></STRIKE><FONT color=#999999> <FONT color=#ffffff>50% </FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>cha</FONT>nce to cast Mongoose Dodge on target of attack.  If a melee attack is used, only the primary weapon can trigger this effect.<BR> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ff0000>Decreases Threat</FONT> to target by 98 </LI></UL></LI></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#6699ff>25.  Evade </FONT></STRONG>-- Classification:  Awareness -- Cost per rank:  5 <FONT color=#ffffff>-- </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Ranks:  1</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> -- </FONT>Prerequisite:  <FONT color=#ffffff>Requires 15 points in Awareness</FONT><BR>Reduces the target's hate towards the monk<BR></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ff0000>Decreases Threat</FONT> to target by <FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>661-1102</FONT></FONT></LI></UL> <P>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</P> <P>Now those are certainly not Tank AA skills. They do provide a counter argument to yours in regards to tanking using the same information you used.Without quoting you I think even you have recognized that there is a DPS monk desire and by some who play your own class see it as a primary role, vice MT.</P> <P>I think that the primary reason that the Guard community gets riled over is the fact that you want to tank all content and keep your DPS, survivablity skills.</P> <P>Its the age old RUN>Fiegn>Invis>postion to named to farm>DPS till bored and bags are full>sell>upgrade>rinse repeat versus the tank class with pure tank flavor not being able to do any of those things.</P> <P>~to simplify~</P> <P>Brawler owns 95% of the content, Guardian owns(ed) .5% of the content argument.</P> <P>There is no option for any guardian to do anything other than tank or offer low end DPS (dont beleive the hype of DPS guard and most of that is quoted from Raid parses and as you can see is often ouright refuted by our own guardian community in our forums). Taking damage of others skill is negligable and its uses have been changed to effect only those classes that it would not be usefull for.</P> <P>Personally Im tired of the argument and however it falls out you can be sure I will pop in here and point out any glaring incosistances I percieve.</P> <P>Rahge</P> <P>70 Guardian.</P>

[JudyJudy]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rahge wrote: <P>Now those are certainly not Tank AA skills. They do provide a counter argument to yours in regards to tanking using the same information you used.Without quoting you I think even you have recognized that there is a DPS monk desire and by some who play your own class see it as a primary role, vice MT.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><EM>I agree, Rahge.  I do recognize that there are monks that desire to DPS rather than tank.  I support them 100% as they have chosen that as their role.  However, to counter your arguement let's reflect:  At level 1 does a brawler get a de-agro?  No.  At level 1 does a brawler get a taunt?  Yes.</EM></P> <P><EM>Case closed.</EM></P> <P><EM>In the eyes of SOE brawlers are in the fighter tree.  The primary role of the fighter is to hold agro, standing firm.  <EM>Why give us taunts and a taunt proc if we can't stay up long enough to use them?  </EM>Only with THIS expansion has an agro-reducer been incorporated, giving brawlers more options to fill roles other than tanking.</EM></P> <P><EM>My arguement merely states that if we as brawlers sacrafice DPS and de-agro AA's to focus on gearing ourselves to tank more effectively, then we should be able to have the mechanics necessary to do so.</EM></P> <P><EM>And thanks, Ruwen.  I appreciate your kind words.  However, sometimes even with the best intentions, I offend some - and for that I apologize.</EM></P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by JudyJudy on <span class=date_text>11-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

[Prophien]

<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>This is a very good point and I agree 100%. Because of constant whining all the classes in this game have turned into watered down versions of each other. I hate to bring WoW up, since I personally believe it was a horrible game, but the one and only thing I loved about WoW all the classes had a different feel. Each had advantages and disadvantages when it came to soloing, grouping, and raiding. You could play any of the classes and it did not feel similar at all each one worked differently and played differently. The same is true of DAOC and other mmo’s each had different classes for different styles of play. You liked to group and heal you made a cleric. If you wanted to solo you made a friar. Both were great classes in their element but did not do as well in each others role. This made every class feel so much different when playing and so much more fun to try other classes. Don’t get me wrong I like EQ2, I think it is a great game but the one thing I think this game lacks is the unique feeling you get with each class. I never understood why templars wanted to dps like furies or why some guardians wanted to dps like bruisers. I miss playing a class and knowing I was good at something. Or playing a hybrid and knowing I was one of the few decent at everything. I hate this system where everyone is the same and only small differences distinguish one class from another.</FONT></P></FONT></DIV>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<div><blockquote><hr>JudyJudy wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Rahge wrote: <p>Now those are certainly not Tank AA skills. They do provide a counter argument to yours in regards to tanking using the same information you used.Without quoting you I think even you have recognized that there is a DPS monk desire and by some who play your own class see it as a primary role, vice MT.</p> <p></p> <hr> <p><em>I agree, Rahge.  I do recognize that there are monks that desire to DPS rather than tank.  I support them 100% as they have chosen that as their role.  However, to counter your arguement let's reflect:  At level 1 does a brawler get a de-agro?  No.  At level 1 does a brawler get a taunt?  Yes.</em></p> <p><em>Case closed.</em></p> <p><em>In the eyes of SOE brawlers are in the fighter tree.  The primary role of the fighter is to hold agro, standing firm.  <em>Why give us taunts and a taunt proc if we can't stay up long enough to use them?  </em>Only with THIS expansion has an agro-reducer been incorporated, giving brawlers more options to fill roles other than tanking.</em></p> <p><em>My arguement merely states that if we as brawlers sacrafice DPS and de-agro AA's to focus on gearing ourselves to tank more effectively, then we should be able to have the mechanics necessary to do so.</em></p> <p><em>And thanks, Ruwen.  I appreciate your kind words.  However, sometimes even with the best intentions, I offend some - and for that I apologize.</em></p></blockquote><p>Message Edited by JudyJudy on <span class="date_text">11-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:13 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Dear Kajo!Although I agree with you, I think I have to correct a misunderstanding that comes with the Fighters = Tank assumptions.From the very first beginning of EQ2, it was said: "Every Fighter will be able to fulfill it's primary role."That is where the Fighter = Tank argument is from.The primary role of a Fighter is to be a GROUP tank.The secondary role of fighters can be dps, raid tank, off tank, whatever.It was never said that all Fighters can or should be raid tanks.They are tanks, and they should be able to tank.Raid Content is a different show though in my (biased I admit) opinion.My Guardian sacrifices alot to be able to Raid Tank stuff and is often jealous when he sees my Bruiser (who was a Monk before) do things he could never ever do.I agree with you that Brawlers shouldnt be one-shotted.But Raid Tanking should be for those who said goodbye to soloability and utility.</div>