Agro Control and AA's for Raids

[LizzyB]

<DIV>I'm the MT for my guild and am currently having quite a bit of difficulty keeping group mobs on me in raids.  Its normally a Zerker, Bruiser, SK or Warlock that grabs agro.  All my Taunts and attacks are M1 or Adept 3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our MT setup is like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardan - Me</DIV> <DIV>Defiler</DIV> <DIV>Fury</DIV> <DIV>Templar</DIV> <DIV>Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Paladin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MA setup is</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerker/SK  - The Zerkers main is a Fury so depends on healer turnout which toon he brings</DIV> <DIV>Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Conj</DIV> <DIV>Templar/Inq</DIV> <DIV>Mystic</DIV> <DIV>Swashy</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the moment I currently have the following AA's STA 4 8 5 8 and WIS 4 4 8 8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm tempted to change from STA to STR AA and get the extra hate gain.  Is the worth it?  How does it compare to the extra damage from STA AA line?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a pull I will grab the mob get in a group taunt single taunt, cast reinforcement then goading assault, besiege and vindictive strike.  I cycle through my CA's and taunt whenever its up, but you can pretty much guarantee one mob will have broke off and have pummeled the poor warlock into the ground.  The only time the SK pulls agro is if they use their Death March spell.  As soon as they cast the the mobs just got straight for them and there is very little I can do to get them back.  Its at the point now where they can't use this spell at all in a raid.  Has anyone else had problems with SK and this spell?  The zerker well he is pretty much permanantly at 100 DPS and 100 Haste.  Not 100% sure what all his AA's are but I know he has gone down the STR AA line and has the additional hate.  Could this be my problem, and what are people opinons on the raid setup.  We aren't a hardcore guild but we are pretty succesfull at raiding so we don't have all the ideal classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also below are my stats and gear.  How do they compare to other Guards out there?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Health : 8078 <BR>Power : 3462 <BR><BR>Avoidance 54.1% <BR>Mit : 5040 - 71% </DIV> <DIV><BR>Crushing : 5274 <BR>Slashing : 4992 <BR>Piercing : 4852 <BR><BR>Int : 58 <BR>Strg : 311</DIV> <DIV>Agi : 241<BR>Sta : 492 <BR>Wis : 151 <BR><BR>Cold : 4534<BR>Dis : 5489<BR>Div : 4057</DIV> <DIV>Heat : 5975<BR>Magic : 4720</DIV> <DIV>Mental : 3637<BR>Poi : 5632</DIV> <DIV><BR>DPS Mod 19% <BR>Attack : 1214<BR>Dbl Attack : 40% <BR><BR>Defence : 427/427 <BR>Parry : 381/381 <BR></DIV> <DIV>GEAR</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Helm - Doomrage Faceguard</DIV> <DIV>Chest - Cuirass of the High Priestess</DIV> <DIV>Shoulders - Mithrian Spaulders of the Vetran (also have Dragonscale Pauldrens)</DIV> <DIV>Forearms - Doomrage Vambracers</DIV> <DIV>Hands - Mithrian Gauntlets of the Vetran</DIV> <DIV>Belt - Dragonscale Sash</DIV> <DIV>Legs - Doomrage Greaves</DIV> <DIV>Feet - Mithrian Sabatons of the Vetran</DIV> <DIV>Neck - Choker of the Accurita (also have MOA reward)</DIV> <DIV>Ear - Draketooth hoop (also have Dragonscale earing)</DIV> <DIV>Ring 1 - Light Chittin (have Wurmscale band)</DIV> <DIV>Ring 2 - Light Chittin</DIV> <DIV>Wrist 1 - Dragoscale Bracelt</DIV> <DIV>Wrist 2 - Aviak Feather Charm</DIV> <DIV>Charm 1 - Empowered Sleeper Totem</DIV> <DIV>Charm 2 - STA Hex doll</DIV> <DIV>Weapon - Vulucidae's Sword of Shieldinf</DIV> <DIV>Secondary - Archaic Buckler</DIV> <DIV>Ranged - Razorwings Bandolier</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all what I want to know is </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  How do other Guards deal with agro issues?</DIV> <DIV>2.  Should I change AA's?</DIV> <DIV>3.  What do you think of the raid setup?</DIV> <DIV>4.  How do I compare to other guardians out there?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lizzy</DIV> <DIV><BR><BR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by LizzyB on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:45 AM</span>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LizzyB wrote:<BR> <DIV>At the moment I currently have the following AA's STA 4 8 5 8 and WIS 4 4 8 8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>One thing I noticed and not sure whether you switched numbers, but the above AA template means you have full buckler reversal and only 5 points in double attack?</P> <P>The full double attack spec (76%) should be STA 4 5 8 8</P> <P>Then I noticed you use Reinforcement at the beginning of the fight... I save it for the situation when I have to get hate back fast... I don't use it to keep aggro since the hate gain per hit is pretty small.</P> <P>My normal routine...</P> <P>Pull (either body, bow or STA Doll debuff, depending on mob and situation)</P> <P>When mob(s) is (are) running - Sentry Watch (In case my group taunt doesnt catch one and he goes running for priest)</P> <P>Single Taunt</P> <P>Group Taunt</P> <P>Vindictive Strike</P> <P>Command (sometimes Entrench too)</P> <P>Sever and Merciless Charge</P> <P>Now all high damage CA's</P> <P>Throw in the occasional Reinforcement / Tower of Stone.</P> <P>I don't have much problems keeping aggro. Of course there is the occasional insane dps crit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But nothing structural.</P> <P>2 Reasons for this could be: I do it right ... or our dps sucks <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<DIV>I went the buckler line and the str line for the hate increase.  I seem to be doing ok on taunts and holding aggro.  I have considered going the buckler line and the intelligence line for the reuse time reduction, but I haven't been willing to respec until after the expansion comes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been real happy with the str/buckler line so far.  My dps seems to help aggro a good bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any other opinions? on the Int line for example?  Maybe the intelligence line may increas dps and hate at the same time?  Int line and buckler line may be more of a hate increase just due to being able to fire all of your combat arts faster?</DIV>

[kOOtsa]

Coercer in MT group ftw - its what they were made for ( that and getting [Removed for Content] when i break their mezzes hehe )<div></div>

[Domiuk]

<DIV>To hold agro on group mobs you basically have 2 taunts and 1 blue aoe , plus inflaming defence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is not enough <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First thing if you are opening with protect every time i almost guarantee your missing some, make sure they are all in range before you hit your 2 aoe taunts and besiege.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You need a little while for Inflaming defence to build you a bit of hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Easy solutions are you have aoe classes back way off, make them single target attack your MA target and only very occasionally aoe and use there deagro buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those same aoe peeps you want agro reducers on them if possible, amends, moderate troubadors anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You also want a 2nd hate transfer in your group, the dirge is giving you 40% or so but that and 2 taunts is still very very little hate on any mob you are not actively attacking and taunting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any extra hate is  good , coercer , assasin, swashbuckler with swashy and coercer being your 2 best bets as you would get more aoe hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your MA should NOT be aoe attacking at all  (or not within range of your mobs), if he does with his extra hate gain and the fact that he is likely better at aoe than you means he will pull off you likely causing ping pong agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Domiuk on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 AM</span>

[LizzyB]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kOOtsa wrote:<BR>Coercer in MT group ftw - its what they were made for ( that and getting [Removed for Content] when i break their mezzes hehe )<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Unfortunately we only have 1 lvl 70 coercer and its my alt.

[Domiuk]

<P>Oh and you mentioned reinforcement in your pull lineup.</P> <P>That is an absolute nono in my opinion reinforcement is rescue with a differant name , its an emergency taunt.</P> <P>You use it when you lose agro , not before.</P><p>Message Edited by Domiuk on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:36 AM</span>

[Domiuk]

<DIV>I must be in a helpful mood.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep just the templar and defiler in your group,  take the swashie out of your MA group and put him in yours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>get amends or some other agro reducer on the warlock and tell the stupid tanks who cant control there agro to leave out the aoe attacks and only attack the MAs mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problem sorted <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[kOOtsa]

swashies n assassins usually tend to think that because they have a tank in their group its ok to put their agro buffs on him even if hes not MT,Make sure they are dumping their agro to a low agro class like healers<div></div>

[frostbane]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kOOtsa wrote:<BR>swashies n assassins usually tend to think that because they have a tank in their group its ok to put their agro buffs on him even if hes not MT,<BR><BR>Make sure they are dumping their agro to a low agro class like healers<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>was just browsing, and thats it...have those aggro transfers on low hate classes.  My main is a warden and i always have the swashy put his transfer on me!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As someone else said, if you can't get a coercer in the MT group get an assassian/swashy and put amends on the big DPS classes, and have your zerk not AE so much!</DIV>

[Docimodo]

<P>lol yeah theres nothing like trying to contend with an assassin swash dirge aggro buffed serker who has buckler spec +100% dps and haste mod isn't tanking. </P> <P>This has happened and yes I was not amused...</P>

[Ep]

str hate gain is that much of an improvement, it's decent but not so great. you can do 2 things1. respect for dps(but you'll loose wis/mit 314 will hurt) this involves a combo of str/sta2. drop a crusader/druid and pop in an assn/swash or dirge/coerceras long as you have either1. assn/swash+coercer/dirge2. coercer+dirgeyou'll have good enough aggro for group mobs, might want to tell raid to do single target dps for first 5-10s of initial pull then lay on the aoe's, give those other mobs time to hit you(and proc/hate).<div></div>

[Malcomb]

<P>There are a few situations when i find that ill lose aggro also.  1) zerker using their aoe proc skill pretty much on the pull (can't remember the name of the skill atm, but its not open wounds) 2) When that SK buff procs (death march maybe?) 3) the occasional warlock death =p.  Also, its usually harder to keep aggro in HoS because 90% of the mobs unload a few different stuns at the begining which usually get cured in time for me to get aggro back from someone else.  </P> <P>Most of the time this stuff doesn't matter too much though.  Using reinforcement + tricks i can get aggro back on lost mobs like 90% of the time before a zerker/SK dies.  The warlock usually isn't as lucky, lol.  The people more or less are aware of aggro problems at the begining in HoS, but they dont care too much and just try to parse as high as they can.</P> <P> </P> <P>Coercer + dirge def helps.  But if people really want to steal aggro there are a few people who will be able to.</P>

[zormik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Malcomb wrote:<BR> <P>There are a few situations when i find that ill lose aggro also.  1) zerker using their aoe proc skill pretty much on the pull (can't remember the name of the skill atm, but its not open wounds)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's called destruction.  And a zerker in a dps spot should not open with a skill like that since it's HUGE spikedps (if you open with it you open with several k dps).  Hell when i MT i open with it to creat a huge gap in hate so it people can start hitting pretty much on pull and can nuke harder...<BR>

[Notorious_G]

<P>70 SK here.  The best way to counter aggro loss from Death March is to call out reinforce early in the fight (first 5-10 seconds) before the SK's grp is waiting on recast timers & are unable to take full advantage of DM.  All DPS gets to go all out ealy on as well.  I think our Guardian may call reinforce & follow up w/ some type of AoE attack.  We have 2 SK's that normally come along on our raids on Nagafen.  This technique works EVERY TIME & we use it to the fullest.  Both Reinforce & Death March have the same recast times - it's almost like they were meant to be used in synergy.  Without Reinforce an SK will often pull aggro.</P><p>Message Edited by Notorious_GIB on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:22 PM</span>

[Archelius]

<P>Hey Lizzy,</P> <P>Your doing everything correctly but the problem lies where your MA group make up is. I noticed you have a Swashy in your MA group. Swashy, Brigs and Assassins transfer hate up to 20-27% (depending on the level of their buff adept3 or master) on their group friend. Your MA group with the swashy has his/her hate transfer on your MA, therefore they are easily taking aggro from you. Since you only have a Dirge to provide more hate on you, the classes I mentioned generate more hate than a Dirge.</P> <P>One solution is to put more hate gaining classes in your group. Depending on the encounter (you can move back to 3 healer group when it calls for it) you can get away with having only 2 healers in the group and still have over 12,000+ hps on alot of encounters.</P> <P>MT</P> <P>Defiler</P> <P>Templar</P> <P>Paly or Sk</P> <P>Coercer or Dirge</P> <P>Swash, Brig or Assassin (Do not cast moderate on them, that defeats their hate transfer buff)</P> <P>Sarev</P> <P>The Bazaar server</P><p>Message Edited by Archelius on <span class=date_text>11-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:15 AM</span>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Archelius wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Hey Lizzy,</p> <p>Your doing everything correctly but the problem lies where your MA group make up is. I noticed you have a Swashy in your MA group. Swashy, Brigs and Assassins transfer hate up to 20-27% (depending on the level of their buff adept3 or master) on their group friend. Your MA group with the swashy has his/her hate transfer on your MA, therefore they are easily taking aggro from you. Since you only have a Dirge to provide more hate on you, the classes I mentioned generate more hate than a Dirge.</p> <p>One solution is to put more hate gaining classes in your group. Depending on the encounter (you can move back to 3 healer group when it calls for it) you can get away with having only 2 healers in the group and still have over 12,000+ hps on alot of encounters.</p> <p>MT</p> <p>Defiler</p> <p>Templar</p> <p>Paly or Sk</p> <p>Coercer or Dirge</p> <p>Swash, Brig or Assassin (Do not cast moderate on them, that defeats their hate transfer buff)</p> <p>Sarev</p> <p>The Bazaar server</p><p>Message Edited by Archelius on <span class="date_text">11-11-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Aye, that looks good...We do it similar, but add even more hate increase. Normally our (my) MT grp looks like:GuardianDirgeCoercerTemplarDefilerFury/Warden/Paladin/Conjuror</div>

[TheBu]

<DIV>sounds like you got alot of good advise...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the mt group changing...</DIV> <DIV>puting the pally to protect the high dsper</DIV> <DIV>swashy in your group to give u more agro.<- side note dont let any one but he swashy transfer agro to u. no wiz no warlock.</DIV> <DIV>trying to find a Coerce. <- u have now? "Coercer + dirge def helps." u could get the swashy in as well go min healers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats good for building agro...  </DIV> <DIV>**note tho. . . u said something about the zerker. . .note u have a dirge in that group  prob with the agro buff on. does the sk have one as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lets talk about deagro....</DIV> <DIV>casters warlocks and wizzy need deagro from other classes to do well. aka trub. tank extra.<BR><BR>u talked about the warlock a few times...<BR></DIV> <DIV>wer are they in this raid setup... </DIV> <DIV>would be good to see some dps numbers as well. . Is this warlock a super mastered mother ^&^&? <BR> if they are then u may need amends/or some tank deagro and the coecer deagro spell on them.<BR>or do they not know how to deagro? they have three (3!) spell for degro .. .ask them what they are. r they using them?<BR>one transfer one group deagro and one deagro(soon to be group).<BR><BR>when u losing agro? soon? then let him die.</DIV> <DIV> what mobs are attacking him? the one ur attacking that he should be assisting? <BR>Purhaps u need to state no aoe until first mob is at 50% or something..<BR>with aswashy in ur group u will get more aoe damage transfrered to u..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Boke]

<DIV>Guardian<BR>Dirge/Coercer<BR>Templar<BR>Defiler/mystic<BR>Warden<BR>Swashy/Assassin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is our mt group set up</DIV>

[Docimodo]

<P>My favourite setup is</P> <P> </P> <P>Guard (me!)</P> <P>Templar (heals and control effect immunity anyone?)</P> <P>Defiler (hps anyone?)</P> <P>Coercer (heh...)</P> <P>Dirge (cacaphony+reinforcement early in the fight is essentia for me personally regardless of any other effect they give)</P> <P>SK or Assassin or Swash or Brigand (SKs are probably better for single target hate generation but it involves more effort in timing skills. Brigand is there in the odd time when others are not present as it reduces ae damage stripping my heals/wards the swash may rule in eof in that case though on top of their ae hate transfer.)</P>