New Combat Changes [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Illustrious

09-29-2006, 08:32 PM

<DIV>I am guessing that warriors will still be the "best" tank in most end game situations, its just that other classes will also be a far more viable option than before. At a guess Brawlers and crusaders will still be slightly worse than warriors just for the extra dps and/or utility they bring with them to make up for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course its all speculation atm but its going to be interesting to see how they manage the transition and get the strength of the mobs at a reasonable level to compensate at the same time.</DIV>

Pennilen

09-29-2006, 09:24 PM

I don't look at the changes as if they are reducing the ability of guardians.. Being a guardian myself and a monk I happen to feel like now maybe my monk is getting a little love from the devs.Don't worry about the state of guardians. Public opinion is to far along in its views about plate tanks to change now. I do like knowing though that eventually my monk will get a chance to prove his skill against more formidable mobs. I think monks and bruisers have always been a slightly underdog, under utilized class, and deserve to stand proudly with plate tanks.

vatorman99

09-29-2006, 09:51 PM

I think this change, for the long term, is a good thing. I don't think the changes will negatively affect guardians at all. The changes being made seem to affect all classes, so it's not specific to just a handful. At first the Mit change may look worrying, but it really isn't. I think most of us may experience a 5-10% loss overall, maybe more in some cases. But the dev did state that the damage being done by mobs would be adjusted accordingly, so it won't hurt as much. Plus, I think this is a neccessary change when comming out with a new expansion. If you think about it, if most guardians are decked out in gear with their stats already maxed out, what's the point in upgrading to EoF equipment? So in short, this will add more fun and excitement when the new expansion comes out. :smileywink:<div></div>

Raahl

09-30-2006, 12:39 AM

<DIV>Here's the linky to the sony post.</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After the great Guardian nerf of '05, I'm always fearful when Sony mentions a change of this magnitude.</DIV>

Aar

09-30-2006, 03:52 AM

I predict Zerkers will feel the nerf bat. Guard +Def buffs will mean something..and zerkers will not have a distinct advantage over crusaders in damage absorption/survivability outside of hps, just more dps.<div></div>

Tyrion

09-30-2006, 12:56 PM

<DIV>My sentiments are echoed by almost everyone else on this thread pretty much. We're losing some mitigation overall, but we'll still be the best for pure tanking. Which is the way it always has been, is now, and always will be. It's great to see brawlers receiving a much needed boost to their avoidance mechanic, and I hope Crusaders also have either their current AAs re-worked, or the new ones improve upon their DPS woes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd also like to compliment the Guardian community as a whole for not only keeping a rationale viewpoint in regards to these changes, but also being supportive of other tanks. Whining and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing get us no where. Working together to improve our classes and fix errors is the way to go! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>Message Edited by Tyrion on 09-30-2006 01:57 AM

JNewby

09-30-2006, 09:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tyrion wrote: <DIV>My sentiments are echoed by almost everyone else on this thread pretty much. We're losing some mitigation overall, but we'll still be the best for pure tanking. Which is the way it always has been, is now, and always will be. It's great to see brawlers receiving a much needed boost to their avoidance mechanic, and I hope Crusaders also have either their current AAs re-worked, or the new ones improve upon their DPS woes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd also like to compliment the Guardian community as a whole for not only keeping a rationale viewpoint in regards to these changes, but also being supportive of other tanks. Whining and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing get us no where. Working together to improve our classes and fix errors is the way to go! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> Message Edited by Tyrion on 09-30-2006 01:57 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> what you are nto understanding is that brawler type will make about 4k mit maybe abit more or less.. that is the soft cap on mit.. anything overthat has diminsihing returns.. so basically being a plater tank that cant do anything but tnak.. its a huge nerf cuase now the brawlers no matte rhow much mit we get will be close... they arent nerfing avoidance caps or anything jsut mit.. so brawlers in effect will probably be able to take hits better this is a terrible change imo guards have already been nerfed so much.. this is jsut geting ridiculous.. in addition fi they gave plate armor higher mit values and leather ones lowetr then it might offset some of this.. or if they did the same thing to avoidane. as they do mit..

selch

09-30-2006, 10:18 PM

Stop being newbie JNewby,Max Fabled Brawler mitigation is around 3.5K or less, and since you did not read all the notes, you also did not notice same will apply to avoidance.Also Parry get reduced 5%, Deflection (which is only brawler skill) will get reduced 5% as well.You think it does not matter over 4K dummy? Yeah, sky is falling. Let me see another "guard" with no fabled items reaching 5.6K mitigation and 62% avoidance (which is only 5% less than my defensive stance full legendary monk) but 3K+ more mitigation then we are talking about brawlers having avoidance much?Seriously, are you ever playing?Message Edited by selch on 09-30-2006 11:19 AM

JNewby

09-30-2006, 11:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: Stop being newbie JNewby, Max Fabled Brawler mitigation is around 3.5K or less, and since you did not read all the notes, you also did not notice same will apply to avoidance. Also Parry get reduced 5%, Deflection (which is only brawler skill) will get reduced 5% as well. You think it does not matter over 4K dummy? Yeah, sky is falling. Let me see another "guard" with no fabled items reaching 5.6K mitigation and 62% avoidance (which is only 5% less than my defensive stance full legendary monk) but 3K+ more mitigation then we are talking about brawlers having avoidance much? Seriously, are you ever playing? Message Edited by selch on 09-30-200611:19 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> so waht dose the nerf on aviadnace say? I erad it but i read no such nerf on them giving less returns on an amount reachable by a guardian.. in addition.. this will be the 3rd straght big nerf for us comabt wise... I like the fact that they will allow us to get moer mit and not cap it so easily.. I jsut dont understand whyit has to be such a huge nerf to plaet tanks.. and you know it is being that 4k is reachable by any class.. u say u can slef buff 3.5k who cares? in a raid u woudl be way over 4k.. and all guards woudl have for advantage is the diminishng returns.. and none fo monks abilties being that this is not a soloing game.. takign your solo stats is hardly fair.

selch

10-01-2006, 12:55 AM

<blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:so waht dose the nerf on aviadnace say? I erad it but i read no such nerf on them giving less returns on an amount reachable by a guardian.. in addition.. this will be the 3rd straght big nerf for us comabt wise...I like the fact that they will allow us to get moer mit and not cap it so easily.. I jsut dont understand whyit has to be such a huge nerf to plaet tanks.. and you know it is being that 4k is reachable by any class.. u say u can slef buff 3.5k who cares? in a raid u woudl be way over 4k.. and all guards woudl have for advantage is the diminishng returns.. and none fo monks abiltiesbeing that this is not a soloing game.. takign your solo stats is hardly fair. <hr></blockquote>Okay, incase you are too lazy to read here is a copy / paste for you (and underlined for you, incase you are BLIND:<blockquote>Avoidance Skill- Skill caps have increased from [ 1 * Level ] to [ 1.5 * Level ]- Base Parry chance has been lowered from 10% to 5%- Base Deflection chance has lowered from 30% to 25%- Increases to avoidance skills now have diminishing returns similar to the changes made for mitigation/resistance. Players experience more gains in avoidance when further away from the cap, and less gains as they reach closer to the cap</blockquote>Capiche?If there is a nerf here, I guess Deflection seems to be it. Since I don't see any nerf on BLOCK, I wonder WHY?No, it is not a solo game, but whining with too much mitigation and almost same value to my avoidance AS SOLO (myself) and AS SOLO (as guardian) (and no, full fabled brawler has 3.5K mitigation solo max, I have 2700 with legendaries) so read posts right!So Raid buffs effects my mitigation and avoidance AND DOES NOT EFFECT YOU AT ALL? With removal of 80% cap and raid buffs more buffing in mitigation, you won't have any problems.Just Don't be funny...Message Edited by selch on 09-30-2006 02:01 PM

Danan

10-01-2006, 01:05 AM

Give up this fight, JNewby has always been a prophet of doom when it comes to changes that affect his class in anyway. Even more so if any other tank classes gain anything in regards to tanking. All he wants is to be the only tank option no matter what happens to anyone else!.

Sir_Halbarad

10-01-2006, 04:39 AM

I can't make sense of anything JNewby says.. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Is he against this? Does he think Guards get nerfed? Does he think brawlers get nerfed? Is he a Guard? Is he a brawler?/confused<div></div>Message Edited by Sir_Halbarad on 09-30-2006 05:45 PM

aislynn00

10-01-2006, 06:48 AM

Yeah, it is a nerf to plate tanks compared to brawlers, but seriously, it is overdue. When these changes go live, I will at long last be able to see tangible gain when I put up my short-term mitigation buffs. I will see a reason to equipping those massively stat-boosting items which would otherwise just put me even farther beyond the cap. I will feel that my master I defense buff actually serves a purpose instead of being just another irrelevant number (I, and many other guardians, are able to self-buff beyond the Defense cap.) And more importantly than anything else, with these new changes and the potential for character growth they allow, SOE may actually be able to keep the level cap where it is, without having to raise it again within six months.

Sir_Halbarad

10-01-2006, 11:57 AM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div></div> Yeah, it is a nerf to plate tanks compared to brawlers, but seriously, it is overdue. When these changes go live, I will at long last be able to see tangible gain when I put up my short-term mitigation buffs. I will see a reason to equipping those massively stat-boosting items which would otherwise just put me even farther beyond the cap. I will feel that my master I defense buff actually serves a purpose instead of being just another irrelevant number (I, and many other guardians, are able to self-buff beyond the Defense cap.) And more importantly than anything else, with these new changes and the potential for character growth they allow, SOE may actually be able to keep the level cap where it is, without having to raise it again within six months.<hr></blockquote>I agree with you on every point you make... I can't see the nerf to Plate Tanks from what you write though?</div>Message Edited by Sir_Halbarad on 10-01-2006 12:57 AM

tobynser

10-01-2006, 02:43 PM

<div></div>Hi everyone,I dont really know the previous post behaviour of both JNewby and Selch, but euh ..is there really a need for such an aggressive tone, Selch?On a personal note, im kinda sad about upcoming changes ..I worked weeks on claymore quest lines to get the mitigation equip (still not there btw), only to see it less effective now with this change <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . But if all the mobs get scaled in the same way, i suppose it doesnt really matter. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Also, EoF equipment cant be massively better then KoS, can it?? ... but maybe with the whole armor set thing<div></div>

aislynn00

10-01-2006, 06:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sir_Halbarad wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote: Yeah, it is a nerf to plate tanks compared to brawlers, but seriously, it is overdue. When these changes go live, I will at long last be able to see tangible gain when I put up my short-term mitigation buffs. I will see a reason to equipping those massively stat-boosting items which would otherwise just put me even farther beyond the cap. I will feel that my master I defense buff actually serves a purpose instead of being just another irrelevant number (I, and many other guardians, are able to self-buff beyond the Defense cap.) And more importantly than anything else, with these new changes and the potential for character growth they allow, SOE may actually be able to keep the level cap where it is, without having to raise it again within six months. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with you on every point you make... I can't see the nerf to Plate Tanks from what you write though? </DIV> Message Edited by Sir_Halbarad on 10-01-2006 12:57 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The nerf is the new logarithmic mitigation effect function. Currently, I mitigate 80% of all incoming damage from a 74th level raid mob. A fully fabled bruiser probably mitigates around 60%. To paraphrase, if the mob hits for 10,000 raw damage, I will take 2000 while the bruiser would take 4000. Now, after the changes go live, I will most likely be mitigating around 70% of all incoming damage. A bruiser will still sit at about 60% because his raw mitigation is close to the break-even point of 4K where raw mitigation will translate into roughly the same mitigation effect post-changes as it does currently. What that means in a practical sense is, if a mob hits me for 10,000 raw damage, I will take 3000 after the revamp, an increase of a whopping 50% compared to the status quo. The bruiser will still take 4000 damage. In other words, plate tanks will be mitigating closer to pyjamas tanks, but will still be significantly ahead (i.e., while the bruiser will no longer take twice the damage, he will still suffer 33% more damage per successful hit than a comparatively equipped warrior.)

JNewby

10-01-2006, 08:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote: Give up this fight, JNewby has always been a prophet of doom when it comes to changes that affect his class in anyway. Even more so if any other tank classes gain anything in regards to tanking. All he wants is to be the only tank option no matter what happens to anyone else!. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I resent that.. just cuase maybe I was shown to be wrong here does not describe me as taht.. when I was upset before it was cause they did nerf us hardcore.. and still the guardian calss sitnks imo.. beign their special ability is to die faster.. but I dont even compalin about our usless dmg soaks! and about being the only tank I dont care.. I mjsut made my toon to lead a raid guild and I cant do so all gimpy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

JNewby

10-01-2006, 08:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sir_Halbarad wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote: Yeah, it is a nerf to plate tanks compared to brawlers, but seriously, it is overdue. When these changes go live, I will at long last be able to see tangible gain when I put up my short-term mitigation buffs. I will see a reason to equipping those massively stat-boosting items which would otherwise just put me even farther beyond the cap. I will feel that my master I defense buff actually serves a purpose instead of being just another irrelevant number (I, and many other guardians, are able to self-buff beyond the Defense cap.) And more importantly than anything else, with these new changes and the potential for character growth they allow, SOE may actually be able to keep the level cap where it is, without having to raise it again within six months. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with you on every point you make... I can't see the nerf to Plate Tanks from what you write though? </DIV> Message Edited by Sir_Halbarad on 10-01-2006 12:57 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The nerf is the new logarithmic mitigation effect function. Currently, I mitigate 80% of all incoming damage from a 74th level raid mob. A fully fabled bruiser probably mitigates around 60%. To paraphrase, if the mob hits for 10,000 raw damage, I will take 2000 while the bruiser would take 4000. Now, after the changes go live, I will most likely be mitigating around 70% of all incoming damage. A bruiser will still sit at about 60% because his raw mitigation is close to the break-even point of 4K where raw mitigation will translate into roughly the same mitigation effect post-changes as it does currently. What that means in a practical sense is, if a mob hits me for 10,000 raw damage, I will take 3000 after the revamp, an increase of a whopping 50% compared to the status quo. The bruiser will still take 4000 damage. In other words, plate tanks will be mitigating closer to pyjamas tanks, but will still be significantly ahead (i.e., while the bruiser will no longer take twice the damage, he will still suffer 33% more damage per successful hit than a comparatively equipped warrior.) <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> also though it was pointed otu that they may avoid less to.. but not sure how that will work exactly..

selch

10-02-2006, 08:23 AM

<blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:also though it was pointed otu that they may avoid less to.. but not sure how that will work exactly..<hr></blockquote>Can you please tell us here what is your avoidance and mitigation in defensive stance with shield currently?Message Edited by selch on 10-01-2006 09:35 PM

aislynn00

10-02-2006, 12:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote: also though it was pointed otu that they may avoid less to.. but not sure how that will work exactly.. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Can you please tell us here what is your avoidance and mitigation in defensive stance with shield currently? Message Edited by selch on 10-01-2006 09:35 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Raid-buffed, capped in Defense and Parry, I have a little less than 62% avoidance. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is with a buckler, mind you, since I, as most warrior MT's, have gone down the Stamina AA line. </DIV>

Kule

10-02-2006, 02:47 PM

To tell you the truth guys, we can look into the changes as much as we want, the key factor here is that they are also alter the mobs.Without knowing in what way the mobs are changing, we cannot accurately conclude the pending outcome of the changes.<div></div>

Erendil

10-02-2006, 04:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: You think it does not matter over 4K dummy? Yeah, sky is falling. Let me see another "guard" with no fabled items reaching 5.6K mitigation and 62% avoidance (which is only 5% less than my defensive stance full legendary monk) but 3K+ more mitigation then we are talking about brawlers having avoidance much? Seriously, are you ever playing? Message Edited by selch on 09-30-2006 11:19 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Just so people dont get the wrong idea and think that the numbers you are providing are accurate- My guardian, who is well geared for not having any T7 fabled, is at 4900 mit self buffed with about 57% avoidance. My Bruiser, who is well geared is at 3200 mit and 72% avoidance self buffed. And the avoidance numbers came before he had any fabled gear. You really need to raise your stats or something. Anyway, for me the avoidance difference of 15% is pretty large and the bruiser has a pretty easy time with any non epic mobs. Ventrous, 70 guardian- Guk Arindle, 70 Bruiser- Guk Steadfast, 67 Ranger- Guk

selch

10-02-2006, 04:20 PM

<blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>selch wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><HR>JNewby wrote: also though it was pointed otu that they may avoid less to.. but not sure how that will work exactly.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Can you please tell us here what is your avoidance and mitigation in defensive stance with shield currently?Message Edited by selch on 10-01-2006 09:35 PM <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>Raid-buffed, capped in Defense and Parry, I have a little less than 62% avoidance. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That is with a buckler, mind you, since I, as most warrior MT's, have gone down the Stamina AA line. </DIV><hr></blockquote>God! You really should change your raid setup or your gear. Because my guildie reaching 63% avoidance in duo with his two-box fury without a single fabled.

selch

10-02-2006, 04:27 PM

<blockquote><hr>Erendil wrote:Just so people dont get the wrong idea and think that the numbers you are providing are accurate-My guardian, who is well geared for not having any T7 fabled, is at 4900 mit self buffed with about 57% avoidance.My Bruiser, who is well geared is at 3200 mit and 72% avoidance self buffed. And the avoidance numbers came before he had any fabled gear. You really need to raise your stats or something.Anyway, for me the avoidance difference of 15% is pretty large and the bruiser has a pretty easy time with any non epic mobs.Ventrous, 70 guardian- GukArindle, 70 Bruiser- GukSteadfast, 67 Ranger- Guk<hr></blockquote>You said your Bruiser is well geared and your guardian not. There is difference in that. Even your guard without a fabled can reach 57%, Does your bruiser can reach 57% mitigation? Oh yes, Bruisers having self-mitigation buff for 3 minutes, Monks dont have that kind. So speak of the devil, this is not brawler ability.On the other hand, the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] JNewby telling that 57% guardians do not avoid anything but brawler do? Sure...I'll be happy if I got mitigation as high as "guardian avoidance percentage" THAN we can talk about balance in that state which with new changes, brawler avoidance will also see their diminishing returns.Basically I want to have my avoidance is same percentage than your mitigation, and then my mitigation can be same percentage with your avoidance, I say fair deal.Message Edited by selch on 10-02-2006 05:28 AM

WolfSha

10-02-2006, 05:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fubaerra wrote: Hi everyone, I dont really know the previous post behaviour of both JNewby and Selch, but euh ..is there really a need for such an aggressive tone, Selch? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Unfortunately yes. Selch is a forum troll so it's his job. Have a look round the boards. Every time you find one of his posts theres a good chance he will having a go at someone expressing a view. Here's some quality posts of his from the thread the devs made about this whole issue: "You obviously must be right-to-left reader" "You sound like you still need to learn a lot of things or eBay less... " These two are replies to people expressing their opinion - NOT replying to / having a go at him in any way. And yes, these are the whole posts... no useful opinions or amazing insights have been left out...

selch

10-02-2006, 05:21 PM

Thanks for your insightful opinion and "a useful post" from you. May be you might read the original when you read that. "You still need to learn a lot of things, or eBay less" was to your class-mate who thinks guardians sucks because they loose aggro in groups too much, do you agree?Message Edited by selch on 10-02-2006 06:38 AM

TheSummoned

10-02-2006, 06:32 PM

We do not know how the deminishing returns curve will be, so saying that you won't get hardly any % mitigation after the break point is silly. WHEN we know how the curve will be, then you can talk about a BIG nerf (or lack thereof). <div></div>

Raahl

10-02-2006, 07:04 PM

<DIV>I'm just overly skeptical about any large changes that Sony does to make the game better. Too often they go way overboard at the expense of one or more classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This announcement makes me really uncomfortable. Will it be a good change or a bad change, who knows? But from Sony's track record of not getting it right the first time, I'm leaning towards it being a bad change. </DIV>

Gungo

10-02-2006, 08:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote: also though it was pointed otu that they may avoid less to.. but not sure how that will work exactly.. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Can you please tell us here what is your avoidance and mitigation in defensive stance with shield currently? Message Edited by selch on 10-01-2006 09:35 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Raid-buffed, capped in Defense and Parry, I have a little less than 62% avoidance. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is with a buckler, mind you, since I, as most warrior MT's, have gone down the Stamina AA line. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That may or may not need to change if they fix avodiance. Since our guard using a 1382?/1402 protection tower shield, max parry/max defense/max agi can hit ~70% avoid. Its to early to tell whats going to happen.

Khrunk

10-02-2006, 10:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>well hopefully we can all find some happiness in these changes. </BLOCKQUOTE> Message Edited by brutalsnail on 10-02-2006 11:17 AM ohh and please dont come onto this post to flame others and bait people to flaming, thats quite rude and not the intent of this thread. thanks.Message Edited by brutalsnail on 10-02-2006 11:51 AM

WolfSha

10-02-2006, 10:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: Thanks for your insightful opinion and "a useful post" from you. May be you might read the original when you read that. "You still need to learn a lot of things, or eBay less" was to your class-mate who thinks guardians sucks because they loose aggro in groups too much, do you agree? Message Edited by selch on 10-02-2006 06:38 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I did read it yes, tho it seems that perhaps you didn't properly before you replied. What he actually said was that with mage damage going up are guards and shadow knights going to get a hate increase to balance this. We'll have to see how much caster DPS goes up by, but it could be a concern, yes. To all tanking classes, but especally guards and SK's who are the weakest in terms of agro holding. If we - and i by "we" i mean all tanking classes, plate and leather - find we can't hold agro from the post-buff mages then that would suck a bit. I don't have a problem with agro at the moment, but I'd like to think that this was going to continue to be the case when mages are going to do more damageMessage Edited by WolfShark on 10-02-2006 11:59 AM

selch

10-02-2006, 11:30 PM

Even I agree to you a point, Aggro management is like every one agreed, is not just tanks work. If a mage fires up Ice Nova before tank engaged and group wipe, that's not tanks fault. Currently, aggro management in all tank classes is fairly fine to a degree, heck, I can even tell my aggro management is fine with only 2 taunts and with my dps on target-tabbing. Mage damage will not boost that much of feared, yes, there might be cases where mages goes over top degrees, then mage should back up. This will be learned through experiences in quick time. However, sometimes I wish tanks' STR value effecting taunt values as well, that way, as mage goes higher, tanks can go higher too.

WolfSha

10-03-2006, 12:38 AM

Lol, yes would be very handy. The stupid thing is that they're buffing mage damage at all - why? All mages could do a LOT more than they do now in groups if only someone could hold onto the agro. A good mage will be just short of taking agro at all times (requires practice with each tank obviously), but any wizard or warlock can overnuke and take agro so i'm not sure what they expect to gain out of that side of the change - it'll just be DPS they can use with a lot of tanks. Probably be more useful to give them better de-agro - then their damge would really go up, but this is probably the wrong board :smileytongue: As for whether plate tanks are being mega nerfed or not, we'll just have to wait and see how shart the curve is. good to see bruisers getting a helping hand, i just hope they don't swing the balance too far the other way - both types of tank should be good without either being gimped.

Sir_Halbarad

10-03-2006, 04:00 AM

Ah, so nice to see some of the old Pre LU 13 hysteria back <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Let me shout once please:GUARDS!YOU HAVE SURVIVED LU13! DEVS HAVE LEARNED!YOU WILL NOT BE NERFED!BRAWLERS WONT OUTTANK YOU!BREATHE CALM AND STEADILY!Peace <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

Erendil

10-03-2006, 04:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sir_Halbarad wrote: Ah, so nice to see some of the old Post LU 13 hysteria back <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Just had to make that correction. I took the wait and see approach with LU13, only to have my tank gutted......I REALLY hope it doesnt happen again. Ventrous- 70 Guardian, Guk Arindle- 70 Bruiser, Guk Steadfast- 67 Ranger, Guk

vatorman99

10-03-2006, 04:42 PM

These changes affect all classes, because it's the dynamics of the game that are changing. I think some of us may, and I say may, feel a pinch when the changes go live, but we will quickly recover. Remember they are adjusting the mobs to fall in line with these new changes, so we may have to take a wait a see approach on this.Personally, I like the fact that our squishies won't get one shotted every time they get a little too close to the big bad meanie. :smileytongue:<div></div>

Anterra

10-03-2006, 09:05 PM

Keep things civil please.

Erendil

10-04-2006, 01:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erendil wrote: Just so people dont get the wrong idea and think that the numbers you are providing are accurate- My guardian, who is well geared for not having any T7 fabled, is at 4900 mit self buffed with about 57% avoidance. My Bruiser, who is well geared is at 3200 mit and 72% avoidance self buffed. And the avoidance numbers came before he had any fabled gear. You really need to raise your stats or something. Anyway, for me the avoidance difference of 15% is pretty large and the bruiser has a pretty easy time with any non epic mobs. Ventrous, 70 guardian- Guk Arindle, 70 Bruiser- Guk Steadfast, 67 Ranger- Guk <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> You said your Bruiser is well geared and your guardian not. There is difference in that. Even your guard without a fabled can reach 57%, Does your bruiser can reach 57% mitigation? Oh yes, Bruisers having self-mitigation buff for 3 minutes, Monks dont have that kind. So speak of the devil, this is not brawler ability. On the other hand, the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] JNewby telling that 57% guardians do not avoid anything but brawler do? Sure... I'll be happy if I got mitigation as high as "guardian avoidance percentage" THAN we can talk about balance in that state which with new changes, brawler avoidance will also see their diminishing returns. Basically I want to have my avoidance is same percentage than your mitigation, and then my mitigation can be same percentage with your avoidance, I say fair deal. Message Edited by selch on 10-02-2006 05:28 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> If brawlers had mitigation equal to the avoidance of a guardian, we would be insanely overpowered. Guardians dont have abilities that boost their mitigation by a massive number for 3 minutes, and they have no haste or dps buffs. They dont have a heal. They cant cure stuns or roots or fears or other negative spell effects. They dont have the dps of a brawler. All of those skills are skills that allow us to solo more effectively than guardians. What kind of soloing would we do if we had mitigation = to a guards avoidance? My point is that this idea is over the top. I agree that our avoidance can use some work against epics, but every other aspect of avoidance tanking has never been a problem for me. Guards are not amazingly overpowered compared to us, lets not go there. Ventrous 70 Guardian, Guk Arindle 70 Bruiser, Guk Steadfast 67 Ranger, Guk

selch

10-04-2006, 02:29 AM

As monks we don't have that kind of abilities like Bruisers, we can't buff our mitigation, we can't heal ourself like bruisers. Point is Bruisers already way better than a monk. 48% heal in 1.5 minute vs. 35% in 3 minutes etc. Mitigation buffs and such.Well, may be Bruisers would require adjusting.Message Edited by selch on 10-03-2006 03:31 PM

Sir_Halbarad

10-04-2006, 02:50 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Erendil wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sir_Halbarad wrote:Ah, so nice to see some of the old Post LU 13 hysteria back <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr> </blockquote> Just had to make that correction. I took the wait and see approach with LU13, only to have my tank gutted......I REALLY hope it doesnt happen again. Ventrous- 70 Guardian, GukArindle- 70 Bruiser, GukSteadfast- 67 Ranger, Guk<hr></blockquote>Nope, I meant the pre LU 13 hysteria <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Not the post LU 13 depression <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The hysteria when Gaige and his loyal followers came here and hate was everywhere on 10 simultaneous 20 page long threads <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

Gaige

10-04-2006, 04:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sir_Halbarad wrote: BRAWLERS WONT OUTTANK YOU! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>We'll be good enough.

zormik

10-04-2006, 06:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aaric wrote: I predict Zerkers will feel the nerf bat. Guard +Def buffs will mean something..and zerkers will not have a distinct advantage over crusaders in damage absorption/survivability outside of hps, just more dps. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> As a zerker i'm fearing that exact thing. But it's not because of the guard + def buff because a zerk has that too, it'll have to do with stats. Now the warriors easily cap stamina and strength out in raidsituations. With the changes we'll see the guardians go all the way for stamina since there aggro comes for a big part from taunts. With a zerker it's totally different, he NEEDS str to be able to hold aggro since his niche is dps. He'll need the dps to hold aggro way more then a guardian does. So imo a guardian will be even more the nr.1 MT then he is now because a lot of zerkers will give up and choose for the dps direction. A guardian for a big part just continue to focus on getting himself as defensive as possible (at least way more then a zerker) ... This is what i'm thinking and on top of that, expect rogues to be competetive tanks as well... This is all guessing for now but i'm afraid it might go into that direction... The same thing will go for crusaders. They will have to choose a direction too because they have even more stats to look after...

Kule

10-04-2006, 06:37 PM

<div></div><div>As far as the Warrior +DEF buffs, Zerks have a timed version which also has detrimental effects. I think the previous poster was referring to the Guard always on group buff. EDIT: I wanted to add also, that it's my opinion, after we get a couple new pieces of gear from the expansion, both warrior classes in the MT position will once again be easily cap STR and STA. If not, the difference between the stat will be small, due to the new mechanics..</div>Message Edited by Kuleon on 10-04-2006 10:39 AM

Super Du

10-04-2006, 08:27 PM

Ha ha i was wondering how they were going to battle out cap's without raising level. this is just a show of how lazy developers are, they do have to keep people interested so they can pay bills and only way they can do that "god forbid create something new" give people insentive to progress. OMGZ how in the world can u progress your character OMG OMG OMG ohhh I KNOW new and imporoved gear... but what good will it do if all your stats are already as big as they can be... hmm lets see... YEA you got it... lets nerf everything that is already in game, that way the new stuff we put in will be actually desirable and people stay tuned. So far they simply raised a tier on every expansion rendering everything useless pretty much forcing players to restock their entire gear set. But if they do so now, then all the mobs they have already created will become greenie trash doable with 2 groups and of course once u do um, u never wanna see um again. Since not that many people have actually killed all what kos and marr has to offer they can still milk some interest off those places. ... sooo the answer is to keep the level, and of course nerf already existing gear, clearing way for new expansion... accounts won't get canceled for another 6 month and we get to rack up some additional cash from expansion... wheee problem solved, back to the golf club. so don't be silly look at the expansion as a gateway nerf to everything you already own nothing less, i'm sure they'll have some fun with existing spells creating master 2s and 3s or some junk like that, or maybe have same spells only New and improved versions... har har, whatever it takes to stretch your playhours.

Mentin

10-04-2006, 10:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Super Du wrote: Ha ha i was wondering how they were going to battle out cap's without raising level. this is just a show of how lazy developers are, they do have to keep people interested so they can pay bills and only way they can do that "god forbid create something new" give people insentive to progress. OMGZ how in the world can u progress your character OMG OMG OMG ohhh I KNOW new and imporoved gear... but what good will it do if all your stats are already as big as they can be... hmm lets see... YEA you got it... lets nerf everything that is already in game, that way the new stuff we put in will be actually desirable and people stay tuned. So far they simply raised a tier on every expansion rendering everything useless pretty much forcing players to restock their entire gear set. But if they do so now, then all the mobs they have already created will become greenie trash doable with 2 groups and of course once u do um, u never wanna see um again. Since not that many people have actually killed all what kos and marr has to offer they can still milk some interest off those places. ... sooo the answer is to keep the level, and of course nerf already existing gear, clearing way for new expansion... accounts won't get canceled for another 6 month and we get to rack up some additional cash from expansion... wheee problem solved, back to the golf club. so don't be silly look at the expansion as a gateway nerf to everything you already own nothing less, i'm sure they'll have some fun with existing spells creating master 2s and 3s or some junk like that, or maybe have same spells only New and improved versions... har har, whatever it takes to stretch your playhours. <HR> Basically what you are saying is Sony is setting new objectives to reach for in order to give us a lot more hours of fun play. This really is what they do with any expansion, so nothing new there. The fact that Sony do this to make money really should not be a surprise to anyone <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></BLOCKQUOTE>

missionarymarr

10-05-2006, 10:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: Even I agree to you a point, Aggro management is like every one agreed, is not just tanks work. If a mage fires up Ice Nova before tank engaged and group wipe, that's not tanks fault. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I don't agree with this. Personally I feel aggro should be just the tank's responiblity and they should be given the abilities to handle aggro properly. The way they have it though to often it can lead to a situation where someone has to hold back on doing damage so the tank can hold aggro. Personally I feel this goes against what grouping is supposed to accomplish. When you group it is suppose to be so everyone can be better. I would love to see them make it so that after the tank has pulled and taunted everything could then use all their damage abilities and the tank as long as he is doing his job will keep aggro. Then you will get the bonuses you are suppose to from grouping.

Thehuffermsu

10-05-2006, 10:52 AM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> missionarymarr wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: Even I agree to you a point, Aggro management is like every one agreed, is not just tanks work. If a mage fires up Ice Nova before tank engaged and group wipe, that's not tanks fault. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I don't agree with this. Personally I feel aggro should be just the tank's responiblity and they should be given the abilities to handle aggro properly. The way they have it though to often it can lead to a situation where someone has to hold back on doing damage so the tank can hold aggro. Personally I feel this goes against what grouping is supposed to accomplish. When you group it is suppose to be so everyone can be better. I would love to see them make it so that after the tank has pulled and taunted everything could then use all their damage abilities and the tank as long as he is doing his job will keep aggro. Then you will get the bonuses you are suppose to from grouping. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> that would kinda kill the fun, if no one can ever possibly rip even going full out then you've for one made the tank job very boreing and 2 made the dps class boreing as well no risk in trying to squeeze out that last bit of dps without ripping. Would also dumb things down. you don't have to be a smart mage anymore who knows how to control his aggro, could just hit everything in the world.</DIV>

Erendil

10-05-2006, 03:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: As monks we don't have that kind of abilities like Bruisers, we can't buff our mitigation, we can't heal ourself like bruisers. Point is Bruisers already way better than a monk. 48% heal in 1.5 minute vs. 35% in 3 minutes etc. Mitigation buffs and such. Well, may be Bruisers would require adjusting. Message Edited by selch on 10-03-2006 03:31 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> FYI bruiser heal is 35-42%, FYI Bruisers dont get 100% haste. I'm sorry that you think your buffs are worhtless....self hate sucks.

selch

10-05-2006, 06:48 PM

<blockquote><hr>Erendil wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><HR>selch wrote: As monks we don't have that kind of abilities like Bruisers, we can't buff our mitigation, we can't heal ourself like bruisers. Point is Bruisers already way better than a monk. 48% heal in 1.5 minute vs. 35% in 3 minutes etc. Mitigation buffs and such. Well, may be Bruisers would require adjusting.Message Edited by selch on 10-03-2006 03:31 PM <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> FYI bruiser heal is 35-42%, FYI Bruisers dont get 100% haste. I'm sorry that you think your buffs are worhtless....self hate sucks. <hr></blockquote>And how does 100% haste in offensive stance has to do with "tanking" wise? I mean +1400 mitigation buff vs. haste, 1.5 minute healing vs 3 minutes more inferior healing... How does 100% haste compared in Tanking for godsake?Yeah, you want to DPS, go ahead, Bruiser will still own 100% haste monk on that too.

Jackula

10-05-2006, 09:23 PM

<div></div><div></div>The Guardian forum is so cool that now the monks and the bruisers are coming here to duke it out :/ .Isn't it kind of early to be bashing/defending your class/someone elses class regarding changes that aren't even on test yet? Are you upset with how things are now or are you just padding your post counts?I admit I have my apprehensions when SoE says they want to adjust something like this, but it's not in their best interests to make the game worse. I'm more curious on your thoughts about stat caps regarding the generating of hate between the archtype classes. I think bigger stat caps will make it harder for classes that rely on more stats. A wizard will still mostly be worrying about getting his INT to the new cap and likely to forgo that at the cost of all else. I don't think a paladin for example will have that same luxury if they want to do there job as equally well as that wizard does his. I wonder if we'll see bigger dps ranges on parses?I'd rather hear things like that than "My fighter is better than your fighter" comments.<div></div>Message Edited by countjackula on 10-05-2006 11:51 AM

superdave

10-06-2006, 06:33 PM

i see this change to be good and noone knows how it will effect game play. Why be negative about it. I honestly just worry more about high end mobs not being scaled down and doing the same damage it does now. To be honest as brawler in full fabled 3.5k depends highest i get is 3.9k mit. No where near 6k+ guardians can get. I feel guardian's in general are very defensive to things like this after lu 13. i do agree with gaige we will be able to tank fine as brawlers. It will be good enough. We will all see. Really how is this thread helping anyone its really not informative and crying is just as old as dirt.

Khrunk

10-10-2006, 07:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> superdave wrote: i see this change to be good and noone knows how it will effect game play. Why be negative about it. I honestly just worry more about high end mobs not being scaled down and doing the same damage it does now. To be honest as brawler in full fabled 3.5k depends highest i get is 3.9k mit. No where near 6k+ guardians can get. I feel guardian's in general are very defensive to things like this after lu 13. i do agree with gaige we will be able to tank fine as brawlers. It will be good enough. We will all see. Really how is this thread helping anyone its really not informative and crying is just as old as dirt. <HR> its putting ideas, thoughts, and concerns that people have with the new changes going into effect with echoes. we all know devs read the boards so i think putting some helpful things would be good. they want feedback on their ideas so why not give feedback on this. personally i want all tanks to be able to tank the same stuff, i dont want to see this thing get way over done and not have the tools to fight the mobs, because they arent scaled right to the mit and avoidance. all i would like to still see a usefulness for me in a raid. though now that i have played my guard more in raid situations, while not mt i see their is utility that i can have, to be wanted. the idea of this thread was to throw these things up while they are fixing the problems and to congraulate the leather wearers on their soon to be ability to tank the endgame stuff. it certainly is not for my tank class owns your tank class. and nerf you cause i cant do this. the crying is pointless i do agree with but what can you do ya know? seems someone always has class envy and wants to destroy another. but bashing this thread for said reason is pointless as well. there are some legitment concerns here in this thread you just need to read past the bickering. so please do that before critizing and do put in some concerns of your own as well. cause this will be a huge change indeed.</BLOCKQUOTE>

DarkMirrax

10-24-2006, 09:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erendil wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote: As monks we don't have that kind of abilities like Bruisers, we can't buff our mitigation, we can't heal ourself like bruisers. Point is Bruisers already way better than a monk. 48% heal in 1.5 minute vs. 35% in 3 minutes etc. Mitigation buffs and such. Well, may be Bruisers would require adjusting. Message Edited by selch on 10-03-200603:31 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> FYI bruiser heal is 35-42%, FYI Bruisers dont get 100% haste. I'm sorry that you think your buffs are worhtless....self hate sucks. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> And how does 100% haste in offensive stance has to do with "tanking" wise? I mean +1400 mitigation buff vs. haste, 1.5 minute healing vs 3 minutes more inferior healing... How does 100% haste compared in Tanking for godsake? /Yup not a vaild point to bring up in tanking debate , 100 % haste compared to 24 % dps is always the same argument let it drop already theres no point , everyone knows on auto attack a monk will do more damage in comparison to a brusier but burst wise we kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Yeah, you want to DPS, go ahead, Bruiser will still own 100% haste monk on that too. /Not really depends on a lot of things but then even a dirge under the right conditions can out dps brawlers so whats the point ? its not about who does more dps both monks and brusiers are comparible the debate is tanking and in regards to tanking brusier are superior to monks the self miti buff we have + hate proc + savage blows = More control. </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> All i want to see out of the changes is the bar raised for both brusiers/monks/guards putting them all on a more even level and giving other *tanks* a chance to raid , im hoping in EoF that you have a bit of diversity for tanks i.e a brawler needed to tank one epic as it lowers miti on the tank hence actually needing to be avoidance tanked and vice versa. Theres plenty of content to suit all tank types p.s Nurf the Zerks !! :smileywink: oh and brusier mite be able to tank it as good as but lets hope they get the taunts to hold it oO <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Message Edited by DarkMirrax on 10-24-2006 06:18 PM