is Plate armor really that much more mitigation?

[Somatic]

I see level 70 Brigs/Assassins (solo--so only self buffs) runnning around all the time with between 3600-4000 mitigation I see level 70 SKs/Guards running around all the time between 3800 - 4200 mitigation.So....all plate = 200ish mitigation advantage?  that seems crappy to me.  The conclusion I gathered from these observations are one of the following.  Which do you agree with?1)  Very good leather armor is very common -- thus Brigs/Assassins have reached their cap.  Guards/SKs have just not gotten all there very good plate yet (rarer?)2)  Mitigation means little between Leather/Heavy Armor.Also I've read in other threads that Brusiers are starting to tank more and more endgame Epic monsters.  The general view in that thread was that Mitigation is meaningless vs Endgame Epics since they are Red.  Debuffs are the only thing that matters was the general overview.This is just my observations and I'm hopefully wrong.  So you endgame 70s could share your mitigation max (self buffed/no group)?Thanks for any input!<div></div>

[Godelure]

Briga has some sort of self mitigation buff (Stance: Ruffian).A Guard with 3800-4200 mitigation is definitely doing something wrong.I'm at 5100-5300 miti solo, depends on raidmob and resi etc.In MT-group I am sitting at 6100-6400 (7xx from Master1 healer grpbuff, 400-500 from crusader pledge).That's with 3 relics, all the +miti claymore rewards and some +miti jewelry.Quote:1) Very good leather armor is very common -- thus Brigs/Assassins have reached their capBrigs/Assas wear chain armor, not leather.2.)Mitigation + max avoidance/parry etc. is everything vs. mobs with 80-95% melee damage.

[Judist]

<P>Brigs/assasins wear chain not leather.</P> <P>As a chain wearing priest (shaman) I would need a full set of fabled armor to reach 4k mit <U>with</U> my priests mitigation buff. And even in full fabled, 4k seems abit to high. I'm sitting around 3.3k with a couple fabled, the best legendary and self buffed.</P> <P>A full set of fabled plate (gathered from the same places as chain) is <U>much</U> higher than chain will ever be.</P> <P>Chain/leather wearers do have a slight advantage when it comes to getting good legendary armor early on in T7 but the mastercrafted plate still beats this in mitigation.</P> <P>Bruisers (who do have more mit that monks) can easilly tank end game <U>instances</U>, but epics? Not quite. While de-buffs do mean everything, they dont allow leather tanks (avoidance tanks) to get away with taking on epics. Just last night our plate tank got hit for 8k <U>after</U> his mitigation check. These sorta hits happen alot. He lived because he could absorb 80% damage. A bruiser/monk would have died instantly.</P> <P>End game epics can reach lvl75 which is orange. And not many epics are lvl75 at that. 5 or 6 if I remember correctly. And for these a plate tank is definitly a requirement.</P><p>Message Edited by BeatinGuts on <span class=date_text>09-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 AM</span>

[Snorm]

<P>From personal experience, a guard in all T6 legendary with the mit AA line, the Adept III defensive stance, the claymore jewelry, and other readilly obtainable non-raid gear (light chitin, aviak feather charm... think I'm forgetting something) sits at just a little over 5k mit self buffed. Even without master buffs, that makes 6.2-6.4k mit in a raid pretty easy to obtain. With a conj, crusader, and healer you can get to about 6.7k in that gear. Your HP and resists suck mostly, when compared to fabled.</P> <P>The about half fabled monks I know are not anywhere close to that. Even the plate healers in full fabled healer-plate (there is a difference <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) seem to top out around 4.5k. I guess they could probably gear just for mit and get up to 5k+ if they really wanted in DT plate, but don't.</P> <P>I can't speak from personal experience, but if you put the best plate and shield in the game on a guard or zerker with the mit AA, I suspect you're looking at about 5.9-6.1k mit self buffed assuming you're gearing just for max mit (which at that point, you don't do in practice). A guard in relic gets to around 5.2-5.5 or so, self buffed, depending on exactly what other gear you have on.</P> <P>Not sure what the high end for chain is, as I've never really cared <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Oh, and brawlers have tanked everything in the game up to and including tarinex. Not sure about chel drek or the matron.</P> <P>Also, there is a world of difference between SK's and guards when it comes to mit. Guards just have a much easier time gearing up for mit. And remember when you see someone running around QH, it's hard to say what they have been up to. When I solo (once in a blue moon), I gear for capped strength and haste, not mit. At that moment, if you sat me beside one of the brigs that just gone done tanking HoF, he will probably look like a better tank stat wise than me.</P> <P>Snorm - 70 Guard</P><p>Message Edited by Snorm on <span class=date_text>09-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:51 AM</span>

[Aandien]

<DIV>As a guard, my standard tanking gear puts me at 5340 mitigation (solo).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our bruiser, in their tanking gear (when we are doing princes) has 3987 mitigation (solo)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our brigand, if they wear tanking gear is at 5100 mitigation (solo, they have sta AA line).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers/monks can just barely achieve the mitigation cap with priest + conj + knight (thats 1500 mitigation in buffs).  Bruisers can go beyond the cap with their 30 second buff.  Doing that though isn't the most ideal tank group..but it can be done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brigands, if they are sta AA specced, likely have more mitigation than all plate tanks except guardians -- and unshakable is the only reason guards have more mitigation than brigands who are specced that way.</DIV>

[Rah]

<DIV>deleted<BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Rahge on <span class=date_text>09-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 AM</span>

[Rah]

<DIV>1)  Very good leather armor is very common -- thus Brigs/Assassins have reached their cap.  Guards/SKs have just not gotten all there very good plate yet (rarer?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Whats common is the avoidance due to agility combined with buffs for mit that allow this to occur</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ff00>Brigs and Assasins wear chain. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Awakened Scalelord, Claymore and Relic are a time consuming endavor and when they do drop you either have to be lucky or fortunate enough for the participating members to agree that boositng your tanks mitigation is a benefit to the effort as a whole. If that isnt a consideration then prepare to get ill from raid zone x hoping for that great roll.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00> </FONT></DIV> <DIV>2)  Mitigation means little between Leather/Heavy Armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Disagree</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>The current ftom issue amongst our pajama bretheren is that the gap is to large and not fair ( when compared to epic and some specific heroic content). I am of the opinion that the x% of mobs that fall into that category need to be tanked then get a plate class to do it, however my view are well documented here and not worth reviewing.</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Just my 2 cents</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </P> <P>Rahge</P> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Rahge on <SPAN class=date_text>09-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:53 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rahge on <span class=date_text>09-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 AM</span>

[TanRaistlyn]

Nice thing a raid buffed Guardian can enjoy is easily 6.5k mitigation + >13k HP + 65-70perc. avoidance - crusaders dont get as much HP or Avoid - brawlers in full tanking fabled cap around 4k miti in MT grps - your comparisons are severely skewed.

[Sir_Halbarad]

<div>I always tried to not answer posts in the quotes... but well... it is in <font color="#6633ff">blue</font><blockquote><hr>Somatic wrote:I see level 70 Brigs/Assassins (solo--so only self buffs) runnning around all the time with between 3600-4000 mitigation I see level 70 SKs/Guards running around all the time between 3800 - 4200 mitigation.<font color="#6633ff">A Level 70 Guard in 3800-4200 mitigation is definitely not group tanking. It is very easy to get to 5k+ mitigation in defensive stance.</font>So....all plate = 200ish mitigation advantage?  that seems crappy to me. <font color="#6633ff">I</font><font color="#6633ff"><font color="#6633ff">t'</font>s 100 mitigation per piece vs. chain and roughly 200 per piece vs. leather (on comparable equipment). On a full set, that should be 700 more vs. chain and 1400 more vs. leather.</font> The conclusion I gathered from these observations are one of the following.  Which do you agree with?1)  Very good leather armor is very common -- thus Brigs/Assassins have reached their cap.  Guards/SKs have just not gotten all there very good plate yet (rarer?)<font color="#6633ff">Scouts use chain, not leather (stated before I think). Getting a decent (starter) set of plate is a bit of work, yes. But it isn't rarer. And you get very rewarding benefits from a full legendary plate set (or better).</font><font color="#6633ff"></font>2)  Mitigation means little between Leather/Heavy Armor.<font color="#6633ff">Mitigation is a fixed amount. If you have a leather piece with 300 mitigation, it is the same as a plate piece with 300 mitigation. But when a plate tank and a leather tank or a chain scout have comparable equipment, the plate tank should have the clear edge on mitigation. Which is the idea behind heavier armor <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font>Also I've read in other threads that Brusiers are starting to tank more and more endgame Epic monsters.  The general view in that thread was that Mitigation is meaningless vs Endgame Epics since they are Red.  Debuffs are the only thing that matters was the general overview.<font color="#6633ff">You could say the same about avoidance. Avoidance vs. yellow raid mobs is hard to notice, orange are hitting even better <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> From what I read and heard, every raid guild tries a new mob with a plate tank and beats him the first time with a plate tank. (with exceptions I guess)</font><font color="#6633ff"></font><font color="#6633ff">But when all are decked out and you are raiding for your 2nd set of fabled, I guess, the experiments start. And yes, Debuffs are the essential key. Wasn't there a post somewhere from a guild reporting they tanked something noteworthy with a wizard?</font><font color="#6633ff"></font><font color="#6633ff">Don't confuse high end raiding with "Let's give all we have to finally beat this mob!" raiding. If you are really fighting with a mob, my guess is that the plate tank is the choice.</font>This is just my observations and I'm hopefully wrong.  So you endgame 70s could share your mitigation max (self buffed/no group)?<font color="#6633ff">I am far from endgame, only have 3 relic pieces, the mitigation jewelry from claymore questline and M1 defensive stance and I am sitting at 5.4k without 30s buffs.</font>Thanks for any input!<font color="#6633ff">I hope it wasn't all wrong <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><div></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>TanRaistlyn wrote:<div></div>Nice thing a raid buffed Guardian can enjoy is easily 6.5k mitigation + >13k HP + 65-70perc. avoidance - crusaders dont get as much HP or Avoid - brawlers in full tanking fabled cap around 4k miti in MT grps - your comparisons are severely skewed.<hr></blockquote>Crusaders can actually do 8k HP self buffed with their AA lines with plenty of headroom in STA from priest buffs.  In theory this means they can have more HP than a guardian.  But Crusaders have no mitigation buffs, so they are even more gear dependant.  Avoidance isn't as important.  For most fights I'd take a tank with 200 more HP and ignore whatever the avoidance #s are.</div>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>khufure wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>TanRaistlyn wrote:<div></div>Nice thing a raid buffed Guardian can enjoy is easily 6.5k mitigation + >13k HP + 65-70perc. avoidance - crusaders dont get as much HP or Avoid - brawlers in full tanking fabled cap around 4k miti in MT grps - your comparisons are severely skewed.<hr></blockquote>Crusaders can actually do 8k HP self buffed with their AA lines with plenty of headroom in STA from priest buffs.  In theory this means they can have more HP than a guardian.  But Crusaders have no mitigation buffs, so they are even more gear dependant.  Avoidance isn't as important.  For most fights I'd take a tank with 200 more HP and ignore whatever the avoidance #s are.</div><hr></blockquote>Even I can do 8k self buffed with my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty gear <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />In the end, when in the MT group, your STA is maxed... 1.5xmax eventually. STA doesnt matter.Pallies have a self hp buff... for how much? 300-400?Guards have a grp hp buff... 450-550.The rest is equipment.</div><p>Message Edited by Sir_Halbarad on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:33 PM</span>

[oldusrf]

<P><EM>A Guard with 3800-4200 mitigation is definitely doing something wrong.</EM></P> <P>Please don't be mean to us soloersm, we are not doing anything wrong we just play by ourselves.</P>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> oldusrf wrote:<BR> <P><EM>A Guard with 3800-4200 mitigation is definitely doing something wrong.</EM></P> <P>Please don't be mean to us soloersm, we are not doing anything wrong we just play by ourselves.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Sorry, didn't want to be mean <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But if you are doing at least group tanking / instance running / Claymore Questing... then your aim should be to have 5k - because that is comparatively easy to get.</DIV>

[Jeffmaster]

guards have more hp...even if in your case mitig is close

[zormik]

<DIV>The difference is we can still function as good when we're tanking then when we're not tanking (warriors).  We even get bonusses for getting hit.  Scouts will not be able to use their full potential like we do while they are tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On top of that.  Tanks get to 5500 mit solo with no buffs, while having 7K+ hp.  No scout comes close to that.  I can agree that scouts are able to tank heroic content and even epic content.  But they won't be able to do it as good as we warriors ...</DIV>

[MrMartin]

<P>Getting to 5k-5.5k mit does of course never hurt, but it's not required to be a good tank.</P> <P>Im sitting at 4.6k mit selfbuffed and 5.5-5.6k in an MT group and I have successfully tanked up to The Corsolander in Labs so far. (Gonna kill him tomorrow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)<BR>I have tanked every T7 instance except for Niazara and do it relativly easy.</P> <P>Only differance is that you use your mit-buffs a bit more often. (I have both as M1)</P> <P>I have the quested class hat, a few pieces of Awakened Scalelord armor, fabled relic greaves, Doomrage Gauntlets, Cuirass of Protection and a pair of crappy lvl 60 guild-raid boots. (See link in my Signature)<BR>I don't have the Claymore stuff yet but working on it.</P> <P>Gear is not everything, it takes some skill to be a good tank too. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by MrMartin on <span class=date_text>10-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 AM</span>

[Domiuk]

<DIV>"Gear is not everything, it takes some skill to be a good tank too."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While this is true gear really does help <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think its worth noting that when we are talking about numbers like 5k+ self buffed that guilds beat zones like labs and lyceam with far far less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Despite what people say getting to 5k is only really realistic if you get most of the claymore line or have very good luck on fabled drops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simple fact is claymore jewellry is some of the best mitigation gear out there and the fact thats all classes can use it is where chain wearers for instance get a chance to catch up a little.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even so at top end 5500+ mitigation is obtainable and im sure theres a few 6k guardians about, Chain wearers are a fairly long way from these sort of numbers.</DIV>