Contemplating betrayal to Guardian

[Laereneth]

<DIV>I have an upper end zerker and was concidering the idea of betraying to switch to a guardian.  Before I did this, I had a question to make sure I had the correct understanding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know there is a little dps difference between the two and I could accept that.  My main goal is to be the best tank for a group that I can be.  So, my question is, doesn't guardians have a slight edge on the defensive department between the two?  My understanding is that is the trade off between the two side of the coin.  Zerk has a little more dps, the guard a little more defenisve.  Is this correct?  My other question would be the agro management between the two.  Is it going to be about the same?  Or does one have an easier time of agro control than the other?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks in advance for your time!  I would hate to make the change to find out I misunderstood the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Laer</DIV>

[Thehuffermsu]

<DIV>your lose a pretty good bit of dps slight harder time with aggro however more hp and more tools to help mit dmg stoneskin tower and stone and such.</DIV>

[juz]

For a group, I think the Guardian is great on agro because he can deagro the highest DPS of the group. For raids, that ability is not that good.Guardian will just stay alive longer. Zerker maintains agro better but if the Guardian looses it, he can get it back easier.

[Laereneth]

<DIV>Yeah, I'm priamrily looking from a group setting point of view.  Our guild already has a well setup raid tank, so I won't be doing any of that....normally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Laer</DIV>

[Godelure]

I'd say don't' give up all your ad3/M1 skills to be a guard, if you just want to tank group content.I'm sharing the raidMT role (me the female dwarf guard <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) with a really good Zerker and we both are able to tank nearly everything up to DT. So there isn't too much difference but I'd say a Zerker is a lot better in keeping AE aggro inside one encounter and with adds.So if you are grouped with some trigger happy AE-DDs like a warlock or an elementalist as a guard you have to work a lot harder, keep switching targets, use plant+reinforcement+besiege combos etc.With nearly identical equipment the DPS of a Zerker will be a good portion higher than the guards, especially (again) on larger encounters.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

Zerker's better for group content imo. Tanks 99% as effectively, and the group kills trash faster when the zerk goes all out offensive (and you're always clearing trash way more often than killing named). Very little reason to play a Guardian unless you're a raid tank. So little, in fact, that the nerf bat is hanging over zerkers, although until it hits they're a much better choice for soloing, levelling + single group content.

[Kule]

Zerk for groups. Don't waste a group slot for a meat shield, put a DPSer in there that has meat shield tools.<div></div>

[Laereneth]

<P>I'd like to revist this topic.  Now from a raid MT perspective, would the change be benificial?</P> <P>Laer</P>

[Flor]

I finished the betrayal quest a few days ago. I used to be a zerker and succesfully tanked every mob there was up to date. When this expansion hit tho, i realized being a zerker will not be a good option as a MT.This expansion is all about mittigating the damage now with the new caps. Sure it was fine back then when mittigation wasnt a problem and we only had to worry about agro. But now, i had to change to guardian because well, guards have a lot more tools to stay alive than zerkers have.Not to mention zerkers get ZERO new AA tankign orientated while guards get everything.After i betrayed and played around a lil bit i can tell you im VERY happy with my decision..and it only cost me 150 pp to get all masters but 3 i belive.

[Laereneth]

<DIV>So you are the MT for your guild?  And you have found that the guard setup is working better for you?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you notice a difference in agro control?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In what way do you find the survivability better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry for all the questions, but I really appreciate your input!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Laer</DIV>

[RDBIII]

<P>I was a 70 zerk and found it very hard to survive adds of herioc level, could dps the hell out of them but templar wife could hardly keep up with spike damage i was taking.  So i betrayed to guard and we have both noticed a huge difference in my damage, it is more controlled and very little spike damage, plus I love all the abilitites that the zerk never had!</P> <P>It was way worth it to us we usually play in a group of 3 with me botting a conjy.  So DPS is not a concern, survival is and it is so much easier now.  Plus the whole group aggro thing is crap imho for zerkers.  I would lose aggro as a zerk and could never get it back.  Now if I lose aggro i can get it back in a snap.</P> <P>For us the difference was night and day!</P>

[Laereneth]

<P>What tools does the guard have that allows them to get agro back so quickly compared to the zerk?  </P> <P>Also, how are you seeing the combat changes effect the added defensive tools the guard receives?  I noticed that 5K is the break point for mitigation.  The difference between 5K and 6K mitigation is only about 3% more damage mitigated.  Does the guard get better avoidance (base, parry, etc)?</P> <P>Thanks again for the input!!</P> <P>Laer</P>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Laereneth wrote:<div></div> <p>What tools does the guard have that allows them to get agro back so quickly compared to the zerk? </p><hr size="2" width="100%">Reinforcement - Ancient Spell you get at 52. While active, you increase your hate position by 1 with every hit (auto attack and CA). <hr size="2" width="100%">Also, how are you seeing the combat changes effect the added defensive tools the guard receives?  I noticed that 5K is the break point for mitigation.  The difference between 5K and 6K mitigation is only about 3% more damage mitigated.  Does the guard get better avoidance (base, parry, etc)? <p>Thanks again for the input!!</p> <p>Laer</p><hr></blockquote>Our Defensive Stance has + Defense and we have a grp buff with + Defense. And we have an offensive skill buff (+slash, crush, pierce) that allows us to hit stuff when in defensive mode. Our Grp Target Avoidance Buff gives us +Parry.Not sure what the other Fighters get with their Defensive Stance and Grp Target Avoidance Buff. </div>

[uux]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sir_Halbarad wrote:<div>Our Defensive Stance has + Defense and we have a grp buff with + Defense. And we have an offensive skill buff (+slash, crush, pierce) that allows us to hit stuff when in defensive mode. Our Grp Target Avoidance Buff gives us +Parry.Not sure what the other Fighters get with their Defensive Stance and Grp Target Avoidance Buff. </div><hr></blockquote>Zerkers' defensive stance has +defense.  The group target avoidance buff is +agi (probably close in overall avoidance for the caster).  There is also a short duration (30s) +defense self buff with offensive penalties.  The permanent +defense group buff the guardian has puts them ahead in regards to avoidance.  The zerker gets offense oriented buffs instead.</div>

[potatotr0ll]

from what I hear, Guardians can buff slashing/crushing/piercing skills to themselves.  Zerkers are having a major pain hitting anything in Defensive stance.  So they can't hit anything to keep aggro.  Alot of Zerker's aggro gain was a combo of taunts and not-so-bad DPS for a tank.  Now they can't hit anything, and the tuants just aren't doing the trick.  Our new AA lines sucks for tanking.  Its all faster reuse timers.  No def stuff.<div></div>

[Laereneth]

<P>I have one more question on this topic.  What agro tools does a guardian have?  I've seen a couple posts stating that they can snap back agro fairly quickly.  What tools allow this?</P> <P>I know every tank has a single taunt, group taunt and some form of taunt proc (Brawlers proc when they hit, Warriors proc when they get hit, etc.) but what other tools are there?  I also know Zerks get one taunting attack and insolent gibe (PBAoE taunt) which is extremely useful.  Do Guards get something that offsets this?</P> <P>Thanks in advance for your time!</P> <P>Laer</P>

[steveatk]

<P>Guardian also gets a taunting attack, and an additional encounter taunt and reinforcement which gives 13 seconds of magnetism <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> While the buff is up, every melee hit will raise the Guardian up by one hate position which is WAY better than a taunt (assuming he can maintain the agro when he is at the top of the list). Reinforcement is kind of like an uber Rescue but with a significantly shorter recast time (which can be reduces even more via AAs)</P> <P> </P>

[Laereneth]

<P>Thank you for your feedback!</P> <P>Laer</P>