Objective comparison of Guards and Zerkers

[Turb]

Hi,I started looking a the differences between guardians and berserkers to learn how they work when playing with them as an off-tank paladin. I probably spent too much time on this... but would welcome any objective comment on what follows.I thought I'd summarise what I found in case it's helpful to others. I have no opinion on which is the 'better' class; it clearly depends on the circumstances, as while they share 75% of their skills, the guard is more defensive while the zerker as you'd expect is more about getting hate from extra DPS, especially area attacks.Hopefully this text will be handy if you're an off-tank a lot like me, are thinking ofrolling a guard or zerker, or maybe of betraying from one to the other!The differences can be split into skills that run through the whole level tree, andthose that start higher up from L21 onwards, as the warriors gain experience.Times in ()s where listed are (duration, recast).*** General skill comparison ***Raw hate tools:G: Hold The Line: 50% hate proc (will gain hate 50% of the time when hit)Z: Bullying Defence: 20% hate and damage procThe guard generates more hate (including the zerker damage effect) but the zerker will be able to put a group of enemies down faster by the reactives. Note that if the tank is warded, they will not be damaged, and not gain hateby reactive procs. Something to consider when grouped with shamen.Both classes also have single and group target taunts that are the same throughout the levels.Stances:G: Offense: Increases melee, decreases DEF, boosts STRZ: Uproar: Increases melee, decreases DEF, gives 10% AoE procThe defensive stances are the same, but guardians boost heat mitigation whilezerkers boost cold mitigation.Group buffs:G: Call to Arms: Boosts combat skillsZ: Bloodthirst: Boosts STRThe guard will thus be able to help group members hit mobs that they mightotherwise not hit so often, while the zerker boosts raw melee damage as well as their own power pool.G: Battle Tactics: Boosts healthZ: Screaming Rage: Boosts HP regenThe guard offers the group more total HP, while the zerker boosts in-combat HPregen. Unless total HP matters for a tough fight where you have a lot of healingpower, these two skills can be seen as similar in effect in a fight.G: Call of Command: Boosts group defenceZ: Battle Lust: Gives group a chance to go berserkThe guard boosts group avoidance, while the zerker boosts melee DPS. While theguard holds aggro, the only important effect is on himself (noone else is being hitby enemies). Single target buff:G: Stand Firm: Boosts self parry, gives friend chance of extra avoidance checkZ: Reckless Aide : Boosts self AGI, gives friend extra chance of avoidance checkThe parry I believe can help the guard get more ripostes in as well as blockingattacks, while the zerker's advantage is purely avoidance.G: Sentinel: Chance to intercept all damage for a target, target takes some damageZ: Intercept: Guaranteed intercept one attack on a target, target takes some damageThe guard gets a chance to absorb damage on an enemy continuously, not just forone attack. Useful to place on group's healer. Debuffs:G: Wound: DoT, and reduces enemy DPSZ: Vicious cut: DoT, and reduces enemy attack speedNo real difference here.G: Concussion: Damage, and reduces enemy spellcasting skillsZ: Surround: Damage, interrupt and reduces enemy focusThe zerker's interrupt probably makes their version more useful.Damage:G: Knee Bash: Damage and interruptZ: Knee break: DamageHere the guard gets the extra interrupt that the zerker gets with Surround overConcussion, leaving both classes with the same number of direct interrupt attacks.G: Slam: Reasonable damage (1 min)Z: Focus Rage: Chance to go berserk, increasing DPS and attack speed Each class has a way to generate more damage, the guard through a reasonableattack on a 1 minute timer, the zerker by a proc giving higher attack speed/DPS. *** Higher level skill comparison ***L21+:G: Allay: Boosts a group member's avoidance and reduces their hate gainZ: Blood Rage: HP regen when struck in melee (lasts 20 secs)Some classes can transfer hate, so the guard needs to coordinate who they put the hate dump on. The HP regen for the zerker fits their theme of HP recovery in combat (along with the warrior level 1 AA skill).L21+:G: Bury: PBAoE damage vs all nearby enemiesZ: Furious Onslaught: PBAoE damage vs all nearby enemies, with short knockdown/stunThe zerker's AoE has an attached stun, while the guard's does not.L26+:G: True Strike: a lowish damage attack (30 secs)Z: Stifled Rage: give up some DPS for +Defence skillThese skills seem to offer the guard a little more damage while the zerker can gain more defence in exchange for DPS. The skills seem to be tradeoffs towards the other class (balancing flavours).L28+:G: Iron Will: Boosts STAZ: Barrage: an AoE attack vs all enemies in front of zerker (45 secs)The guard gets more HP (if not STA capped), the zerker gets DPS.L32+:G: Entrench: roots guard, reduces attack speed/DPS, but also attack speed/DPS of nearby enemies (13 secs/1 min)Z: Stunning Cry: an encounter AoE attack, with short stun (1 min)The guard can hunker down every so often, but the effect can be broken by damage to enemies. The zerker gains more DPS.L44+:G: Taunting Assault: encounter AoE damage, hate gain (30 secs)Z: Frenzy: Up to 3 attacks, if one misses, the rest do (1 min)This gives the guardian at least one extra direct taunt (AoE) than the zerker has, while the zerker gets a reasonable damage attack, if all three hit. L50+:G: Guardian Sphere: absorb damage that would have hit the group for a period (36 secs/3 mins)Z: Rampage: an encounter damage procAgain, the guard gains a defensive ability where the zerker gets DPS. I think the Sphere includes mitigation, but a large AoE on the group may still be hairy for the guard to take - it may be better to let the group take the hit and group heal, so it may be more useful in situations where there's 'melee chaos' to recover from.L52 (ancient teaching):G: Reinforcement: gain hate and 1 hate position per hit (13 secs/3 mins)Z: Insolent Gibe: generate PBAoE hate and an encounter hate proc when hit (30 secs/3 mins)Reinforcement looks very nice, but relies on you hitting the enemy which you can't do if stunned. The zerker needs to be hit to get more hate with Gibe, so it is probably more useful if you already have hate and want to keep it.L55 (ancient teaching):G: Sentry Watch: saves player from death, gives them some HP, gives guard hate (30 secs/3 mins)Z: Visions of Madness: a heal of around 5% per tick for 30 secs if you would otherwise die (30 mins)Can allow the guard to save especially a healer from going down, while the zerker gets a skill in keeping with their HP regen theme, allowing around 30% of health to be restored if they might otherwise die. L58 (ancient teaching):G: Tower of Stone: allows 3 hits over 10% health to be absorbed (15 secs/2 mins)Z: Open Wounds: boosts attack speed and turns normal attacks to PBAoE vs up to 4 frontal enemies (36 secs/3 mins)Another trade-off of defence vs DPS. The shield skill will damage the shield, so the guard may need to carry a few shields and pay a lot of repair costs, but the damage absorption could be a lifesaver.L65:G: Obliterate: Good damage, and reduces enemy deflection, parry and defence (10sec/1min).Z: Juggernaught: sacrifice mitigation and defence for melee crit and CA damage boost (24 secs/3 mins)The guard can help debuff a target nicely this way. Juggernaught is unlikely to be something a main tank would use, but nice if solo or off-tanking and you need a quick DPS burst.L68:G: Retaliation Strike: damage and dazes target (7 sec/1 min)Z: Demolish: damage and stifles target (6 secs/1 min)Both quite useful.*** Overall comments ***Both classes share the same basic hate generation method of taunts and reactive hate, but as the levels go up, the zerker focuses on boosting hate through more DPS, and also assists their group's DPS and HP regen. The guard gets special defensive skills to protect group member(s), withstand burst damage, and to boost health in general. Their reactive hate is also a stronger one, though it needs to be to match the zerker's hate from their better DPS.The signature differences seem to be Reinforcement and Tower of Stone for the guard, along with more raw HP, while the zerker has that DPS through an array of AoE skills, especially Rampage and Open Wounds, which will put mobs down fasterand generate hate.The guard gets more taunt skills, but since it has been stated that a point of taunt hate is the same as a point of damage, an AoE melee attack is in effect an AoE taunt. One can thus argue that the zerker's bigger number of AoE attacks gives them the ability to generate more hate on multiple mobs. If the tank is stunned though, the guard's stronger reactive taunt has an advantage.The tradeoff for the zerker's additional DPS is less 'tricks' that might save a wipe, but the DPS should be able to generate enough hate for most situations. If you plan to solo a lot, a zerker may be more rewarding, and zerkers may have a better chance at getting a 'DPS' slot in a group with an existing tank, but both are going to make very good meat shields in their own way.<p>Message Edited by Turb0T on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:26 AM</span>

[kap]

I'm only 22 as my berserker but I've been playing the character over a month with my xp turned off. There are a few CAs missing from your list that a berserker has. Spell line that grants the target player another chance at avoiding damage. (You listed this under self buffs, but you really need another group member for this to be in effect) G : increases parry of the player, I think this is at all times as long as the skill is set on another player Z : increases agi of the player I would think parry would be the better choice as agi gives only a small change in avoidance. Offensive stance G : I'm not too sure specifically how it works Z : allows a berserker to have a chance at dealing extra encounter damage. Can be quite significant. At 22 my berserker with MI in it can deal 100-140 damage per proc. What's great about this is that their AoE CA can also proc this (only once per CA that I've seen so far). Offensive debuff G : not sure if they have one Z : allows the berserker to debuff one target's offensive power. Not overpowering but if placed on a named character it can help the healer out. One other thing your post has partially wrong G: Concussion: Reduces enemy power Z: Surround: Reduces enemy focus Or here; though against a caster mob the focus debuff may be more useful. As a berserker I save this power to use as an Interrupt. I find that much more valueable than reducing the enemy's focus. I don't think I've ever seen one of them fizzle or be interrupted from their casting unless you use a specific power to do it. Thus berserkers have the potential for 3 interrupts, one is a taunt, one is a shield bash, one is this power to reduce their focus. <div></div>

[vatorman99]

<div></div>Good comparisons, thanks for the info.I believe Concussion no longer reduces power, but melee damage on the target.  It was changed recently I believe.  The guard's offensive stance adds some strength, crushing/piercing/slashing and decreases defense.  Not sure on the exacts though, I'm at work right now <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by vatorman99 on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:39 PM</span>

[Kine]

That is a nice run down on skill comparisons. I think at the end of the day, both guardians and zerkers make great tanks. I think guardians have a slight advantage as a raid tank in part IMO due to tower of stone...that really can make a tough pull survivable. Berserkers definately have a soloing advantage and also an advantage in getting groups. They can fill the tanking role, but also when pickup groups are looking for dps they will often take a zerker while they pass on guardians.We each bring something different with respect to utility when not MTing. In groups, again the zerkers bring DPS. Guards are really a safety net with respect to utility. When things go to hell with add groups and agro bouncing, reinforcement + besiege can stabilize the situation quickly. Stone sphere is also a lifesaver when it looks like a group wipe is iminent...it can give the healers just enough time to get things under control again. I dont get to use sentry watch all that often, but more than once it has saved the day.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<DIV><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/bufs96/EQ2_000010.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/bufs96/EQ2_000011.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/bufs96/EQ2_000012.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/bufs96/EQ2_000013.jpg"></DIV>

[Xelephe]

<DIV>Great  comparison Argyle!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lol... Wabit!</DIV>

[Wabit]

ehh its everyhitn i have on my hotbars cept interced and rescue...  but those don't matter they are the same for all tanks...  and yes the 3 ad3 are killing me wanting to get upgraded...  i was i def stance solo when i took the SS's...  my stats are on the top bar...

[Kule]

Always keep in mind that 1 DMG = 1 Threat point.Also, there are always things that we cannot really measure, for instance: Zerks HTL line dmg proc can also proc once on top of that, IIRC. (amounting to more hate, perhaps)Furthermore, you forgot some key points, either in typing or analysis. (Such as Open Wounds not just being haste, but turning auto attack into an PBAoE attack on each primary weapon swing.)I like these kind of write-ups as they are a resource each and every time one is posted. Thanks for that.Quick question: What type of research was this? Objective or subjective? Or merely speculative through word of mouth and spell links?<div></div>

[Huna]

Vision of Madness is a heal over time when you get to 0% health.  5% when you die, then 5% over 20 or 30 seconds, can't remember for sure. Once used up, you have to wait 30 minutes to cast it.  A lot more limited than just saying a 30% heal, you never use it if you don't hit 0% health.  it is definitely useful when soloing and grouping, worthless in raiding.

[Turb]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I've updated the text based on your comments.I can't find the zerker skill you mention that decreases an enemy's power?I started looking at the differences to help understand better what each class can do, and needs to do, to help off-tank better myself. It then turned into a fuller list of differences. I don't have any view as to which I'd prefer to play, just hope it's useful to some people <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Cheers,

[kap]

Skill is called mangle at lower levels, inflicts damage and decreases slashing, crushing and piercing of target by X (2.0 for adept I version of the level 11 CA) <div></div>

[Turb]

Ah, thanks. That's the same type of effect as the guardian Crumble line, which is why I didn't explicitly list it. Mangle is direct damage while Crumble is DoT.I'll update again with a couple of the points I missed from above.

[Domiuk]

<DIV>40p sever m1 cost me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still cannot believe I paid that for a master.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still it is a good CA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The real differance in the 2 classes is in the ae's , zerkers are just much better on groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However that groups of mobs is a big enough issue to matter is fairly rare, or at least in my experience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The spear multiple autoattack AA must be absolutely awesome on a zerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a long while I was a bit unhappy with my guardian after lu13 but I am more than happy with the current state.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and I got My Underworld legplates last night , thanks very much to whomever on here suggested them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rorrak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Domiuk wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and I got My Underworld legplates last night , thanks very much to whomever on here suggested them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It was probably me....I love those things for soloing.  Congrats and enjoy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>- Rorrak<BR></P>

[Domiuk]

<DIV>A thanks again !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lol and it wasnt so easy to get with 6 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6 is still a challenge and a half on darathar too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />     I did 709,000 dmg, of a total 784,000 Hps.   12 mins to kill him sad eh <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[kap]

One other thing that's important is that with LU24 and the social agro changes, AoE has to be separated into encounter and true AoE. With the offensive stance for berserker's it's really just AoE encounter. There should be AoE CAs later on but I'm not sure which side they fall on. <div></div>

[Kule]

I'm sorry, maybe I didn't watch this aggro change too close; I'm not sure what you mean, associating it with AoE attacks?There has always been two kinds of AoE. One is encounter locked as you said, and the other is not. Blue backgrounds mean they are not encounter locked. (They will hit everything within a certain range and degree of angle.)Better known as Point Blank Area of Effect. (or PBAoE)<div></div>

[Kule]

<div></div><font color="#ffffff">One more saltine as food for thought:</font><font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ffffff">Warriors have</font><font color="#ffffff"> </font><font color="#ffffff">Dragoon's Reflexes at the end of the agility achievement line. </font><font color="#ffffff">Dragoon's Reflexes is a 12 second self buff that allows you to parry all physical attacks. Great for raid saves and a tank pass off. Only problem is it stifles you and potentially an aggro issue. When a Berserker casts this he can't do anything for 12 seconds; He can't even gain hate off of our HTL since he technically never takes a hit. Insolent Gibe can't help here, being as it is 50% upon actually taking damage. Open wounds would help some, but in very tight situations PBAoE </font><font color="#ffffff">is </font><font color="#ffffff">usually </font><font color="#ffffff">your worst enemy.Correct me if it only works on CA's, but I believe a Guardian can use </font><font color="#cc00ff"><font color="#ffffff">Dragoon's Reflexes with Reinforcement  (13 Second duration) and be able to maintain aggro with auto attack.EDIT: Also, you guys should keep in mind that even though 1 point of DMG = 1 point of threat, a taunt will never be subject to reposte. You'd be surprised...</font></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Kuleon on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:49 PM</span>

[kap]

<blockquote><hr>Kuleon wrote:I'm sorry, maybe I didn't watch this aggro change too close; I'm not sure what you mean, associating it with AoE attacks?There has always been two kinds of AoE. One is encounter locked as you said, and the other is not. Blue backgrounds mean they are not encounter locked. (They will hit everything within a certain range and degree of angle.)Better known as Point Blank Area of Effect. (or PBAoE)<div></div><hr></blockquote>The AoE in the offensive stance is encounter locked. With the changes in social agro, and supposing that your group ends up on the average picking up one extra encounter along with the pull, this means that the AoE advantage for berserkers (at L22 it's only this and the unlocked one) is reduced in that it doesn't affect everything that's pulled. Before you would be able to pull one encounter at a time, thus the AoE (encounter locked) affects everything being fought.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kuleon wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffffff><BR>Correct me if it only works on CA's, but I believe a Guardian can use </FONT><FONT color=#cc00ff><FONT color=#ffffff>Dragoon's Reflexes with Reinforcement  (13 Second duration) and be able to maintain aggro with auto attack.<BR><BR></FONT></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>the recovery time is 12 secs...  that means no autoattck during that time...  so its pita for agro for guards too...

[Kule]

Ah, thanks for clarifying bud, sometimes I can't connect the dots. You bring up a good point, to which there is no arguing with.Although, IIRC the Guardian offensive stance is not PBAoE either. That being the case, a Zerks offensive stance was never and advantage to Guards.I know there was a change to proximity/social aggro but it didn't seem like much of a change to me. I've not been getting any more mobs than I was before the update.<div></div>

[Kule]

Thanks Wabit, I wasn't sure about that skill. I didn't get that achievement.12 Second duration and 12 second recovery, wow. There would be no point in canceling if things go crazy then.<div></div>

[kap]

I just noticed that guardians also have another interrupt in their knee bash attack. If it's on a comparable recast timer as the berserker version then guardians have a slight edge. I think the kick attack for berserkers is on a 10s recast while the surround attack is on a 20s recast. <div></div>

[Kule]

The Zerk equivalent for Knee Bash doesn't interrupt, although it does a smidge more DMG and costs a tad less power.<div></div>

[kap]

I think I tend to leave out words too much. The extra interrupt for berserkers is on a 20s timer found in surround, the kick for berserker is on a 10s timer. The extra interrupt for guardians is on a 10s timer found in their kick, assuming it's on an equivalent timer as the berserker kick it'll be on a 10s timer. While their debuff is on a 20s timer. (I'm assuming that these are the equivalent CAs with the same recast timers) <div></div>

[Turb]

Yep, the zerk Surround line is 20 sec timer, while Knee Bash is 10 secs for guards.So guards get a more frequent interrupt cycle there.

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kuleon wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffffff>One more saltine as food for thought:</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Warriors have</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Dragoon's Reflexes at the end of the agility achievement line. </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Dragoon's Reflexes is a 12 second self buff that allows you to parry all physical attacks. Great for raid saves and a tank pass off. Only problem is it stifles you and potentially an aggro issue. When a Berserker casts this he can't do anything for 12 seconds; He can't even gain hate off of our HTL since he technically never takes a hit. Insolent Gibe can't help here, being as it is 50% upon actually taking damage. Open wounds would help some, but in very tight situations PBAoE </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>is </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>usually </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>your worst enemy.<BR><BR>Correct me if it only works on CA's, but I believe a Guardian can use </FONT><FONT color=#cc00ff><FONT color=#ffffff>Dragoon's Reflexes with Reinforcement  (13 Second duration) and be able to maintain aggro with auto attack.<BR><BR>EDIT: Also, you guys should keep in mind that even though 1 point of DMG = 1 point of threat, a taunt will never be subject to reposte. You'd be surprised...<BR></FONT></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Kuleon on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:49 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>hehe yeah u are wrong because guardians cant autoattack eitehr when using that CA... all u can do is hope u dont lose aggro <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kule]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Turb0T wrote:Yep, the zerk Surround line is 20 sec timer, while Knee Bash is 10 secs for guards.So guards get a more frequent interrupt cycle there.<hr></blockquote>Yes, in place of the Plant line, Zerks get an AoE that is a stun.<span> Also, the Zerk equivalent of the Besiege is an identical PBAoE (Bloodbath) that has a knockdown attached.</span>SOE seems to have been very methodical in their balancing, eh? <span>:smileytongue:Sorry for not always referring to the skill lines as the original spells, as any and all research I have done has been on spells and variables present at 70.Cheers for a decent thread.</span><span><span></span></span><a href="../view_profile?user.id=258295" target="_blank"><span></span></a></div>

[Kule]

<div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kuleon wrote: <div></div><font color="#ffffff">Correct me if it only works on CA's, but I believe a Guardian can use </font><font color="#cc00ff"><font color="#ffffff">Dragoon's Reflexes with Reinforcement  (13 Second duration) and be able to maintain aggro with auto attack.</font></font><hr> </blockquote>hehe yeah u are wrong because guardians cant autoattack eitehr when using that CA... all u can do is hope u dont lose aggro <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Yea, you're 100% correct. Thanks for the clarification, sorry about that.Maybe it's not a coincidence that Dragoon's Reflexes is on the same recast timer as rescue! <span>:smileytongue:</span><span></span>I guess that's when the Guard hate decreaser potentially comes in handy. <span>:smileyhappy:</span></div>

[Turb]

Have updated the notes based on AoE comments and stun/interrupt comments.Also noticed that the guard's intercept is a chance to intercept all damage on a teammate, the zerker's is a guaranteed intercept on one attack.

[Allowin]

with the buff maddening defesnse, you cant automaticly say that its a better buff vs the zerker buff. you have to actualy be hit before the buff procs a reactive hate.so in raids its pretty much worthless. 70-80% of the time your going to have wards stacked on top of you. if your not taking damage, or the damage is being absorbed by the wards....that = no chance for mad def to proc.and that leaves you with its advantage during groups. unless you choose to have a druid/cleric in your group, you can pretty much count that buff worthless also. as again it will not proc a taunt if you dont take damage. as i have found in my personal experience, having a shammy in group seems to make grouping easier. to me, they add the right amount of buffs to make a group kill faster. but thats just my 2cpbottom line is you cant count that buff as a huge difference in hate generation between the classes from taunts. <div></div>

[Turb]

OK, interesting, but do we know if the proc is firing on a hit (pre ward effect) or actual damage. It says on hit... does it show in a parse?That would be very useful to know...

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Turb0T wrote:<BR>OK, interesting, but do we know if the proc is firing on a hit (pre ward effect) or actual damage. It says on hit... does it show in a parse?<BR><BR>That would be very useful to know...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>read the description...  when target is damaged it has 50% chance to proc...  </P> <P>since taunts don't show unless they are resisted you have to get a highly mental resistant or immune mob...  the math works out to ~50% of the time your damaged on an inital hit HtL will be resisted...</P> <P>also after 50 lvls of useing the ability you know the animation for when it procs...  with wards you don't get near as many of those as you will with a druid healing...</P> <P>guards also have the highest avoidance of the plate tanks, vs white and lower cons we aren't getting hit like ever...</P> <P>the question is if the zerker damage component get resisted much...  even at M1 guard HtL gets a lot of resists...</P>

[Turb]

Ah, my bad, thanks Wabit.Will make me rethink a little how I heal with my defiler with a guard (or zerker) as MT.Why do guards have the higher avoidance? They have the group +DEF but zerkers get a +DEF self-buff, and the guard can self-buff parry while the zerker can self-boost AGI. Both have +DEF in defensive stance.Or are the buff numbers simply bigger for guards? Thanks.

[Wabit]

<DIV>i'm capped on def solo, zerkers aren't...  with the same gear...  and parry > agi</DIV>

[Kule]

<div><blockquote><hr>Turb0T wrote:Ah, my bad, thanks Wabit.Will make me rethink a little how I heal with my defiler with a guard (or zerker) as MT.Why do guards have the higher avoidance? They have the group +DEF but zerkers get a +DEF self-buff, and the guard can self-buff parry while the zerker can self-boost AGI. Both have +DEF in defensive stance.Or are the buff numbers simply bigger for guards? Thanks.<hr></blockquote>Zerks do not have a self target Defense (the skill) buff.Our stance and one timed buff is all we have to enhance the Defense skill.</div>

[Turb]

OK, I was looking at Stifled Rage line, which says:Decreases attack speed and DPS of caster by 12.6%Increases defence of caster by 10.6Duration 30 secs, recast 30 secs.That should allow it to be permanently up?Also, the DEF boost is higher than Call of Command line, which the guard can buff the whole group with, but if only the caster (tank) has aggro, the Stifled Rage line looks (slightly) better? At least until you hit the DEF cap.?

[Wabit]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Turb0T wrote:<BR>OK, I was looking at Stifled Rage line, which says:<BR><BR>Decreases attack speed and DPS of caster by 12.6%<BR>Increases defence of caster by 10.6<BR>Duration 30 secs, recast 30 secs.<BR><BR>That should allow it to be permanently up?<BR><BR>Also, the DEF boost is higher than Call of Command line, which the guard can buff the whole group with, but if only the caster (tank) has aggro, the Stifled Rage line looks (slightly) better? At least until you hit the DEF cap.<BR><BR>?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>any guard that has masters of his def stance and group def buff will already be over 420 mark...  comparing a mita buff with a def buff apples to oranges...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Command = Mayhem...  Wall of Force = Wall of Ferocity...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and like most of our short term buffs its 30 up 30 down if i'm not mistaken...</DIV>

[Kule]

Theoretically it's always on, but unfortunately, in application it's impossible.Factor in stifles/stuns/interrupts and bad timing/tight timing and it's not nearly always on.I'm sure all that can go without saying though. It is interesting how much more DEF it is though, like you pointed out.24 for Call of Armament (guard lvl 66 M1) and 33 for Suppressed Rage (zerk lvl 68 M1)<b>Which brings me to my bi-annual, totally out of the blue and completely incoherent Cadd blabber:</b><font size="1">( The following opinion is not actually the writers opinion, but merely the result of magical pudding and throwing scrabble letters to form words. )</font><b></b>Looks like another one of those, middle of the road, "give what you have a lot of, and you'll get more of what you don't" type of CA's that SOE made so that counter-classes can mitigate perceived gaps between ability.To tell you the truth, the Berserker and Guardian class could be rolled up into one with <u><b>VERY LITTLE</b></u> change, but socialism begs for controversy and longing to be unique. Too bad no group I've ever been in would have had to change their game play because I was one or the other...Now with the freedom to change between classes (with penalties albeit, SOE likes time sinks) why not focus more on the berserker being what it is in every single video game, table top game, pen and paper game,comic book, movie, cartoon, tv. show, novel, oh an.. general mythology. OK, maybe they are different between franchises.. and I know, the real berserker's never actually wore horns but.. SOE really chose a bad way to go with berserker's following launch. They didn't want to segregate the the subclasses within the archetypes too much, because they suck at creating an environment to foster individuality. Not to mention they aren't the greatest with balancing. Don't get me wrong, great game, <i>but bad management</i>. Oh and.. I know a lot of yall like the changes they have done to the game, and I respect that, I'm not bad mouthing your taste..I just wish every game out there, wouldn't try to please everybody. We wind up the same in a game, over and over, especially when no revolutionary game play is present.<i>Evolution is good, but remember SOE.. without revolution you're only making things shinier.</i>Find your courage Sony Online Entertainment, and stop replacing game mechanics with boring time sinks because your not keeping your long time players. <i>Innovate</i>.Bed time.<div></div>

[Turb]

<blockquote><hr>Kuleon wrote:Looks like another one of those, middle of the road, "give what you have a lot of, and you'll get more of what you don't" type of CA's that SOE made so that counter-classes can mitigate perceived gaps between ability.<hr></blockquote>Yes, it does look that way... zerker has DPS flavour, but can give it up for (quite a lot of) DEF.Might not be something people realise, hence (I hope) the usefulness of a more objective comparison of abilities.

[elrob]

<P>I have enjoyed reading this post, Being a level 70 Zerker.... i got alot of great information about the Guardian and it helps me for 2 other importart reasons;</P> <P>1) What who can do and get the most from both classes when in the same group</P> <P>2) Slightly understand what might be going though other players, who have grouped with guardians for the MT and are expecting the same from Zerkers since we are from the same class (til SOE made where u can just be any subclass at level 1)</P> <P>However, from what I have read there are some misconceptions on a few things of Zerkers and skills, and I would like to clairafy them;</P> <P>1) our Intercept is not a constant skill, it last for only 90secs and has a 90 sec recast (could be wrong about time on recast)</P> <P>2) Zerkers do have self only defense buff, Supressed Rage (is the last of its line...for now) which is a 30 sec duration with a 45 sec recast</P> <P>3) Command = Mayhem.......  Wall of Force = Wall of Ferocity......... sure........, but they both are short term buffs the 1st with 30 sec duration and a 90 sec recast and the latter with a 90 sec duration and 90 sec recast.</P> <P>4) Most of the Zerker buffs, both group and self are STR, Haste / DPS, in combat HP regen,............we also have a short duration with a short recast time Parry increas and Reposte all frontal attacks that hit buff, and a constant Buff that for every hit we take there is a ~20% (depending if app / adp / M) chance to do damage to all frontal targets / encounters and it will also increase the hate by 200+ (again depening if app / adp / M) per proc, its called Taunting Defense, which leads me into taunts.........</P> <P>5) Taunts, Zerkers taunts arent really that many..........we have the solo target taunt that also interupts targets, we have grouped or linked encounter taunt, an attack that is taunt also, Taunting Defense (mentioned above) that can be always on if chose to be so, and we have 1 last taunt that I dont think any other class has and thats Insolent Gibe.......which is an AoE (15m) which increase hate by 1K plus to EVERYTHING and will even affect non-aggro mobs....just like any AoE you have to know when and where to use it...........IMO....Zerkers really hold aggro better in Offensive Stance</P> <P>From talking to my friends and guildies (present and past) who are guardians, the difference between Zerkers and Guardians are really as follows;</P> <P>Guardians have much better MIT & HP's and will do better job for those big single mob fights and have taunts that will hold great on single mob targets, and Zerkers have much better DPS and can tank Multi mob fights better than anyone by hold the aggro on all or most the mobs and doing large amounts of damage all or most.</P> <P>IMO, depending what AA line a Zerker goes (somewhat), Zerkers are better in Offinsive Stance and should be in that stance most of the time even if the MT (provided it isnt a very tough mob or you have bad healers) and thats how they were designed to be played.</P> <P>all in all both are great as tanks and both require alot of really knowing how to play the character to be good all around, and <U>even more so</U> for the following;</P> <P>Zerkers- in defensive stance</P> <P>Guardians- in offensive stance</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Burlap, 70 Berserker, 50 AA pts</P> <P>Permafrost server</P>

[zormik]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR> <DIV>i'm capped on def solo, zerkers aren't...  with the same gear...  and parry > agi</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am capped on defensive solo too btw (without buffs).</P> <P>The difference between a zerk and a guardian in overall avoidance is very marginal.  Not even worth mentioning it...<BR></P>

[zormik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> elrob wrote:<BR> <P>From talking to my friends and guildies (present and past) who are guardians, the difference between Zerkers and Guardians are really as follows;</P> <P>Guardians have much better MIT & HP's and will do better job for those big single mob fights and have taunts that will hold great on single mob targets, and Zerkers have much better DPS and can tank Multi mob fights better than anyone by hold the aggro on all or most the mobs and doing large amounts of damage all or most.</P> <P>IMO, depending what AA line a Zerker goes (somewhat), Zerkers are better in Offinsive Stance and should be in that stance most of the time even if the MT (provided it isnt a very tough mob or you have bad healers) and thats how they were designed to be played.</P> <P>all in all both are great as tanks and both require alot of really knowing how to play the character to be good all around, and <U>even more so</U> for the following;</P> <P>Zerkers- in defensive stance</P> <P>Guardians- in offensive stance</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Burlap, 70 Berserker, 50 AA pts</P> <P>Permafrost server</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmmz i don't agree with this.</P> <P>First of all guardian mit = zerker mit, guardian hp > zerker hp.</P> <P>In defensive stance or offensive stance a zerker in general will have better aggro except against orange epics where the better hateproc of the guardian really kicks in and the zerker will have trouble hitting the mob...</P> <P>So zerker in general has better aggro and a guardian has better defense (not by that much but they do)</P> <P>They both are the best tanks in the game and they both can tank any content you throw at them...</P>