Hold the Line and Reinforcement questions

[Turb]

Hi,I've been looking at the differences between zerk and guard for the equivalents of these skills, and have a couple of questions...1) Hold the Line has a 50% proc chance for greater hate gain than the zerker equivalent (which is a 20% proc for less hate and some damage). So why are zerkers considered better at aggro generation against multiple mobs? Doesn't that 50% hate proc help guards?2) Reinforcement looks very nice, a kind of mini-Rescue on a shorter timer. The 1 position hate climb should server most needs, but the zerker Insolent Gibe is their equivalent, it generates a lot of hate to the encounter and has a 50% proc for 30 secs to get more hate. What makes reinforcement better? Is it the immediacy and guaranteed 1 position climb? Might the raw hate gain not be better in some situations?Just curious on objective opinions... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thanks!

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Turb0T wrote:<BR>Hi,<BR><BR>I've been looking at the differences between zerk and guard for the equivalents of these skills, and have a couple of questions...<BR><BR>1) Hold the Line has a 50% proc chance for greater hate gain than the zerker equivalent (which is a 20% proc for less hate and some damage). So why are zerkers considered better at aggro generation against multiple mobs? Doesn't that 50% hate proc help guards?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes it does, and that's why we're still extremely good on multi-mob encounters compared to brawlers and crusaders. Zerkers, though, have more area of effect attacks (and Gibe as you mention) and thus their defensive proc has to be looked at in light of the fact they can also AE their auto-attack and will be berserk 100% of the time with lots of mobs beating on them. The difference isn't huge though.</FONT><BR><BR>2) Reinforcement looks very nice, a kind of mini-Rescue on a shorter timer. The 1 position hate climb should server most needs, but the zerker Insolent Gibe is their equivalent, it generates a lot of hate to the encounter and has a 50% proc for 30 secs to get more hate. What makes reinforcement better? Is it the immediacy and guaranteed 1 position climb? Might the raw hate gain not be better in some situations?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Reinforcement is a guarantee of hate. If a wizard has just shot 10k up in the hate list, reinforcement gets it back in 1 hit. Reinforcement taunts off anyone, even a zerker going full out and taunting. You can have a mob that a raid has been beating on for 5 minutes whilst you off-tanked something, then stroll over and have aggro in 5 seconds. It's better then rescue because in the 12 seconds it lasts you're gaining 1 hate position per hit which is easily 23 positions, the most you'll ever need. Moreover, if you're fighting multiple encounters, Reinforcement and an AE attack like Besiege or Dragoon Spin bumps you up the hate list for everything you hit. Gibe's weakness is that it requires the Berserker to be hit to proc the aggro - but if he's lost aggro he's not gonna be getting hit.</FONT><BR><BR>Just curious on objective opinions... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Thanks!<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>Message Edited by TuinalOfTheNexus on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:14 AM</span>

[Wabit]

<P>reinforcement is the best snap agro tool in the game, its not as useful for maintaining agro as it is for getting it back (/hail Tarinax)...  if you're already #1 on the hate list you're not getting the best part of the effect...  we've had better luck with 2 guards on Tnax than a guard and a zerker (4 reinforcerments and 2 rescues = dead dragon if the fight lasts that long)...</P> <P>HtL is pita...  its got an inherant weakness to it (besides the many resists)...  it actully requires something to hit you and do damage...  it won't proc threw wards or when you are missed...  i havent done the numbers for t7 yet, but back in t6 i did the math for a couple of raids HtL gave me roughly ~11 hate per sec (hps) for an entire gates raid, on the contested dragon it was a whopping 4 hps...</P> <P>its hard to compare agro generation without looking at each classes entire repatoir (sp?) of abilities...  guards and zerkers 30 secs def buffs are the same, 2 of our taunts are the same, our AAs are the same, and our def is basicaly the same...  where zerkers pull ahead on AE agro is their AE dps and procs associated with it...</P> <P>take MO for instance, zerkers have a much easier time getting agro on the adds than a guard does...  when the 3rd wave hits its you can end up trying to hold agro on like 15 seperate encounters...  we've done it with both a zerker and a guard OT at different times, with compareable player skill and CAs the zerker had a much easier time (gonna try a paly amendsing a wizzy next time i think)...</P>

[Turb]

OK, thanks for the great insights, very useful.I'm curious as I'm playing a brawler and crusader at the moment, and want to understand how the warrior hate 'specials' work for when I'm tanking or offtanking with these classes. I hadn't realised that wards disqualify hits from proccing hate (it's a 'hit', but no damage taken as you say). Or that reinforcement is 1 position per hit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The pally 'equivalent' to Reinforcement is Sigil of Heroism, which can grab a good chunk of hate for 15 secs every two mins; at Adept III I'm getting 32% transfer of current hate from group members. So that might snap me back to the top in a group setting, and help keep me there for the 15 secs it lasts, but it simply won't have the same effect as Reinforcement for getting aggro back in a raid. Coupled with Amends it is very nice though. And I have come across pallies higher than me that didn't know it existed(!).Anyway, cheers again for the comments,Ni!

[Anariale]

<DIV>Im not so sure about the Ward thing.  For everything else, whenever a Ward takes damage it counts as if the player is "taking damage".</DIV>

[Vormulac]

<P>reinforcment + buckler line, double attack maxed = a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ton of hate, both our wizards have ice nova master 1 and one with fusion master 1, they can spam them as they come up and not pull agro. Same with my swashies with one hander lines and assassins they just burn till its dead. If i wasnt so against this line 2 months ago Tarinax would have died then and not a few weeks ago.</P> <P> </P> <P>Vormulac Unsleep</P> <P>Guild Leader <A href="http://shatteredmoon.org" target=_blank>Shattered Moon</A></P> <P>Neriakithicor</P>