The best tank

[zav]

<DIV>Now I'm realy tired of people who think berserkers can't be used as tank in a group or a raid.</DIV> <DIV>Guardians aren't better tanks than berserkers! A berserker owns a guardian in duels and doesn't got any problems with tanking the same encounters as guardians.</DIV> <DIV>The only difference I have noticed is that berserkers can solo, and guradians need a friend or two to even think about killing something that ain't green or blue. If anyone have noticed a difference that I missed, please post.</DIV>

[Kyrsten]

<DIV>go back under your bridge, troll</DIV>

[Knesh]

<DIV>OMG invasion of the guardian boards!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If zerkers beat guardians and paladins beat zerkers than paladins also beat guardians. So paladins are uber tankage!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S the reasons SK were not involved in this analogy is because well they are sks they are the rangers of the tanking community!!!!</DIV>

[Xelephe]

<DIV>Dude you are 48th level!  <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player.vm?characterId=319356203" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player.vm?characterId=319356203</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Come back and talk to us when you are 70 and have tanked a few x4 mobs! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Xelephere on <span class=date_text>07-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zavox wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now I'm realy tired of people who think berserkers can't be used as tank in a group or a raid.</DIV> <DIV>Guardians aren't better tanks than berserkers! A berserker owns a guardian in duels and doesn't got any problems with tanking the same encounters as guardians.</DIV> <DIV>The only difference I have noticed is that berserkers can solo, and guradians need a friend or two to even think about killing something that ain't green or blue. If anyone have noticed a difference that I missed, please post.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>atm Iw oudl agree with you guardians need more defensive spells then they do vs a zerker.. zerkers can hold aggro better and do more dps... </P> <P>that being said guardians will have more life and more avoidance then a zerker.. in addition guards have good dps.. around 5-700 in raids.. </P> <P>but yeah I think offensive zerkers are like a 8 and guards are like a 5</P> <P>defensive zerkers are like a 9.8 and guards woudl be a 10</P> <P>I think it shodul be a bigger differnce in the defensive department... also at holding aggro zerkers are a 10 and guards are like an  8</P> <P>so I cant disagree zerkers are a better class atm.</P> <P> </P>

[BoneSmasher]

<P>A berserker owns a guardian in duels and doesn't got any problems with tanking the same encounters as guardians.</P> <P>This is the most useless statement you can make as dueling on the PVE server is so unbalanced as to be rediculous.  Try dueling a warden or fury with your zerker and see yourself die in under 45 secs while they laugh at you with full health.</P> <P>If you want to use this as a comparionson go fight a guardian in PvP and you will see an entirely different secnario.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[deita]

<DIV>we  have 5 zerks in our guild and one guard and all can tank 74x4 mobs with no problems .   the zerks do hold aggro better than the guard but u can usually fix that with  an assasin or a coercer. the down side of a zerk  being a mt  is when things get goin badly  they die.   with a guard when things get going badly  they can use tower of stone and  the healers can catch up usually.</DIV>

[Urglu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> the zerks do hold aggro better than the guard <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not against Orange raid mobs. 

[FightGame]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <P>guardians will have more avoidance then a zerker</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>how so?<BR></P>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <P>guardians will have more avoidance then a zerker</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>how so?<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>our + def buff...  it shows in group or solo setting, but raid buffed there is no difference...</P> <P>guards also hit orange mobs better with our +crush/slash/pierce buff...</P> <P>but all things considered we are even in the raid tanks...  zerkers are superior group tanks...  soloing i'd give that to zerkers hands down...</P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <P>guardians will have more avoidance then a zerker</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>how so?<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>our + def buff...  it shows in group or solo setting, but raid buffed there is no difference...</P> <P>guards also hit orange mobs better with our +crush/slash/pierce buff...</P> <P>but all things considered we are even in the raid tanks...  zerkers are superior group tanks...  soloing i'd give that to zerkers hands down...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>well on raids I think  the +def does matter because waht I hear its a soft cap so it stacks.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> deita wrote:<BR> <DIV>we  have 5 zerks in our guild and one guard and all can tank 74x4 mobs with no problems .   the zerks do hold aggro better than the guard but u can usually fix that with  an assasin or a coercer. the down side of a zerk  being a mt  is when things get goin badly  they die.   with a guard when things get going badly  they can use tower of stone and  the healers can catch up usually.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's it exactly really. I mean, we have brawlers that can tank a 74x4, it's just if something goes horribly wrong your odds of recovering with a Guardian tanking are significantly better than with a different class. The value of tower of stone really can't be understated, and the fact Guardians generate more hate through pure taunts (and thus rely less on being able to hitting the mob, subsequently taking riposte / damage shield damage) is a bonus. When you consider the fact the tank is often stunned or otherwise crippled and thus relying on inflaming defense / protection alone they also edge ahead of Berzerkers.</P> <P>Reinforcement is also a get out of jail free card if you lose aggro, that no other class really has a equivalent to.</P> <P>Couple that with the fact a zerker can excel in a DPS role whilst a Guardian cannot, and it just makes sense for the Guardian to tank. They're not better by a massive, 'oh god we can't raid without a Guardian' kinda way, but they are better.</P>

[Knightrid]

<DIV>How many guilds have beaten Chel'drak with anything less than a Guardian tanking? Enough said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heisenberg - 70 Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Dissolution - Nektulos</DIV>

[Kinesthesia]

While I can't agree with the original post, I would be curious about an honest comparison of Berserkers and Guardians, as some who recently betrayed to switch from Berserker to Guardian.  As far as I can tell, the only real difference is in the "specialty" skills you get at 50, 52, ,55, 58, and 65.  Personally, I'm glad I betrayed.  I like the protection capabilities of the Guardian with Guardian / Stone Sphere, Moderate and Sustain.  Tower of Stone is nice of course.  My favorite skill is probably Reinforcement, as I just love pulling things back if I lose them.  I haven't been playing as a Guardian long but I don't think I have yet to use Sentry Watch successfully but hey, someone has to die for that to work =).<div></div>

[vatorman99]

I think both classes are pretty equal in most cases.  It's just that each class has a different set of abilities to accomplish the same task.  I like playing the role of a protector. When things get tough, throw down Stone Sphere along with HtL, and you get a pretty nice combo going.  Or, you can throw down Reinforcement along with one or two AoE's and your back in business.  Basically,  I like playing this class cause it suits my style of play and I would never think about betraying to a Zerker. Period.<div></div>

[Kleev]

<DIV>this thread is pointless anyways..everyone knows conjurors are the best tanks in the game!!:smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Victicu]

<div><blockquote><hr>Knightrider wrote:<div></div> <div>How many guilds have beaten Chel'drak with anything less than a Guardian tanking? Enough said.</div> <div> </div> <div>Heisenberg - 70 Guardian</div> <div>Dissolution - Nektulos</div><hr></blockquote>/shrug we have killed twice .... both times with a zerker tanking ...</div>

[Gastrob]

<P>Well I know this kind of smells like it was troll post but 2 cents here from a Templer:</P> <P>Monks, Zerkers even Swashies can be fine tanks-the trouble-as out lined before- is that if things go south they are probably dead.  The nice thing about a Gaurdian is if things start to go bad they  won't immeadiatly die. In my experience,  you usually have an opportunity or two to bring them back to health and save the encounter.</P> <P>Waves at the plate tanks and rides into the sunset......</P> <P>Grimmsdahl, Level 68 Templer, Nek server</P><p>Message Edited by Gastroboy on <span class=date_text>07-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Knightrider wrote:<BR> <DIV>How many guilds have beaten Chel'drak with anything less than a Guardian tanking? Enough said.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Two.  :p

[FallenFeather]

Zerkers works, guardians are better.

[Vormulac]

<P>so zerkers can beat guardians in duels...feel free to duel me anytime. </P> <P> </P> <P>Vormulac Unsleep</P> <P>Guild Leader <A href="http://shatteredmoon.org" target=_blank>Shattered Moon</A></P> <P>Neriakithicor</P>

[Scyen]

<DIV>it really depend on gear i think ..</DIV> <DIV>with ok gear i can solo a 67+++ melee mob </DIV>

[JNewby]

<P>I beat a zerker in a duel the other day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>in fact I have dueled 3 and won 2 times <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>I can beat guardians and zerkers in duels, that doesn't make troubs the best tank.</DIV>

[Memmoch]

<div></div>How fondly do I remember the days of "Zerker's are just as good as guadians!" debates hehe.  I'm probably in the TOP 3% of these boards when it comes to knowledge of the Berserker and Guardian classes and how well each tanks in a raid situation.  I'm sure of it actually, reason being I've leveled a Berserker up to lvl 60, then switched to the PVP server and leveled up a Guardian to 66 (currently).  I've also Raid tanked every tier with both except for T7, numerous times and had plenty of time to get the required gear of a raid tank for both.  This is what I have found:T5 and below the Berserker and the Guardian are equal in Raid tank situations.  Berserkers are better at single group encounters (mobs die faster due to their increased DPS).  T6+ (level 58+) Guardians have without a doubt a clear advantage over the Berserker in Raid tanking situations and are about equal for single group encounters.  Between all of our protection lines (now that it is finally fixed and takes our mitigation into consideration) and our 2 buffs that give other people a extra chance at dodging (one of which also decreases their hate) and our ToS line, and our straight up defense buffs guardian's win.  Add in the simple truth that because we get so many HP buffs we're able to concentrate more on our avoidance while still maintaining awsome HPS we win in those 2 departments as well.  Currently in raiding gear at lvl 66 my guardian is at roughly 59% mitigation (over 4.5k) and 62% avoidance.  On my Berserker I was never able to achieve these kinds of numbers solo.Guardians are the better tank, they bring too much "needed" items to the table for raid situations.  Kind of sadden's me though (course I'd not have it any other way) as I really loved my Berserker and had a blast proving to people that Zerkers COULD Raid tank epicx4's hehe.  Just Guardian's deal with spike dmg and long term dmg way better...<div></div>

[dukefirema]

<div></div><a target="_blank" href="http://objection.4camp.net/go.php?n=414308%20">http://objection.4camp.net/go.php?n=414308</a>bleh i play a guardian and i was dieing to try out that objection thingy.<div></div>

[JNewby]

<P>I still wish they woudl get rid of those dumb dmg soaks abnd give guardians a different defining abilty that I would actually use <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not to mention upgrade past adpt 1 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Ramglob]

Level 70 SK....My opinion on ranking the Tanks1.  Guardian....don't mean to make anyone mad.  I have grouped with a good Guardian and it is unbelievable.  In all fairness I have only grouped with a tanking zerker on a few occassions.  In comparison though the Guardian is a tanking machine.2.  Zerker3.  Pally4.  Bruiser5.  Monk6.  Brig..........well it might as well be........ SK.  I know I will get flamed especially being an SK but I just find that I have an extremem difficulty holding agro.  AND YES..... I know all the tricks.  I tank well against group mobs but blow against single mobs.....especially with High DPS laying their ears back.<div></div>

[Crownov]

<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Hey! I think the reason Guardians have an edge over Zerks tanking is that they are the defensive variant of the warrior class, Zerks are by FAR the better soloers, and zerk aoe dps could be useful with multi-mob aggro but, Guards do have an extra taunt, and the temporary defense buffs are lifesavers! When a group gets those accidental adds, or if its a bad pull, the Guardians ability to be practically invulnerable for a period (with those three or four temp defense moves, not including tower of stone, as well as the encounter slowing ability) they are geared well for the emergency tank moments!  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">also Guardians get about 35 stinking intercept moves foremost perhaps is the Guardian sphere u get at 50 and upgrade at 70  so if you ARE having issues with aggro with all of your taunts, you can still semi cover your cloth wearers with abilities!</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">I think its similar to the reason why I would say templars are better healers than inquisitors. inquis's get more in the way of damage spells and such but, to be honest, when im in a group, i dont want my healer doing damage! I want them healin! and templars are sort of geared towards that all-out healer mentality.  Templars, like guardians.. are some rough soloing though :oS     </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Another great thing about zerks at the upper level especially is that you can pick one up in a group as a useful DPS, whereas with my guardian.. if I'm not tankin... I'm out of work!</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">So on my fantasy EQ group, i think id take a Guardian over a Zerk, but zerks are a great class and picking between warrior classes is like splitting hairs they both rule.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </P>

[MightyWarri]

<DIV>Well, i have a Level 9 Human Paladin and a Level 8 Barbarian Berserker and i have solo'ed 2x2 encounter groups and i have won easily as a Paladin due to its good healing spells and JUST managed to win as a Berserker cause of their lack of healing spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am probably just terrible at this game, since i started only a few days ago, but so far, i have yet to see a single class that can accually solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like on my Paladin Character, i am level 9 as i said above and i am stuck on a Level 10 quest where i gotta destroy these 3 machines and each one is guarded by 3 level 10 goblins and i just can't win against them, i can't use the AE attack cause there are like tons of other creatures in range of it....so i die each time.....so, if a Class with healing spells can't solo, i don't see how others can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But as i said, i am new to this game, perhaps i just need to practice more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have tried Wood Elf Ranger, but you only get like 1 arrow off and its right to melee and i get killed. lol</DIV>

[FightGame]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crownover wrote:<BR> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Hey! I think the reason Guardians have an edge over Zerks tanking is that they are the defensive variant of the warrior class, Zerks are by FAR the better soloers, and zerk aoe dps could be useful with multi-mob aggro but, Guards do have an extra taunt, and the temporary defense buffs are lifesavers! When a group gets those accidental adds, or if its a bad pull, the Guardians ability to be practically invulnerable for a period (with those three or four temp defense moves, not including tower of stone, as well as the encounter slowing ability) they are geared well for the emergency tank moments!  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">also Guardians get about 35 stinking intercept moves foremost perhaps is the Guardian sphere u get at 50 and upgrade at 70  so if you ARE having issues with aggro with all of your taunts, you can still semi cover your cloth wearers with abilities!</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Another great thing about zerks at the upper level especially is that you can pick one up in a group as a useful DPS, whereas with my guardian.. if I'm not tankin... I'm out of work!</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>IMO, and many will agree, that the extra damage that a zerker can do, will hold better aggro, than having 1 extra taunt.  Not saying zerkers have better aggro control, just saying that the guard having 1 extra taunt (if this is true) really makes NO difference.</P> <P>Temporary defensive buffs are the same for both classes.  Zerkers also get the encounter slow, all exactly the same.</P> <P>35 intercept moves? wow!</P> <P>Ya, the common complaint gaurdians have when they aren't tanking, is that they can't do anything else.  It really boils down to how well you're geared, how good your spells are, and how well you know your character, because I've seen some gaurds parse better than some decently geared "DPS" classes.  Most times it comes down to how good you are, combined with knowing people.  If you were to attend a pickup raid, where nobody knew how good you were, then yea, by default, the leaders will probably pick a different class (assuming MT position is filled).  But if the leaders knew how bad some of those other people are playing those classes and/or knew how good you were, then they wouldn't pick them.  And if you're not DPS'ing, and worrying about taunting and holding aggro, that gives you more time to use all 35 of those other abilities!  IMO, for those that like to have a paladin in the MT group, for mit and avoidance and whatever, having a guard in there is just as good.  Assuming the MT isn't a guard, they will get the HP buff, better avoidance buff, and can use the temporary group defensive buff and either stack it with the MT's or take turns with the MT for an almost "always on" mitigation buff.</P> <P> </P> <P>I agree with the part about the difference being about a split hair.  The one thing the guards get, that is the main difference, is tos.  They have slightly higher HP due to the buff, but zerkers have in combat health regen, which at level 70 with adept 3/master in each, can get to about 150 HP per tick, so this is about even, and shouldn't make or break the group/raid, one way or the other.<BR> </P><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class=date_text>08-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:38 PM</span>

[Mini]

<P>As far as DPS is cocerned, I do about 600 in a group setting, 800-850 in raids.  Don't count on us for just tanking, folks.  As MT sometimes my DPS dips as I'm using other abilities, but if I'm in an all out DPS bash I can create a formidable mount of havoc.</P>

[premiere]

<P>OMG Dumb dmg soaks?</P> <P> </P> <P>Stone sphere has to be the most uber tanking buff i mean add Stone Sphere + Command + Wall of Force thats like 1 min 36 seconds if used back to back of pure defensive badassiveness.   </P> <P>Let me go into a bit of detail.  </P> <P>Stone Sphere ok so you look at the spell and think bah a [Removed for Content] spell that makes me take dmg from grp members but look towards the bottom.  36 Seconds of a 25% chance to stoneskin WOOTERS.  So be smart and dont let grp members be hit use it on inc in case any do get hit and the stoneskins help healers stabilize.</P> <P>Command comes next mid fight because your still building aggro so you need that offense to stay high but you need the mitigation to give those healers some slack. </P> <P>Wall of force not my favorite spell because of the negatives to haste and run speed however very practicle for a long fight near end gives u a lot of miti and gives healers another break by this time u shouldnt be worried as much about losing aggro.  </P> <P>We may not have the hp regen zerkers do and we may not be able to attain the dps nor ae capabilities but we [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure can defensively kick some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  </P><p>Message Edited by premiere on <span class=date_text>08-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span>

[Wabit]

<P>raid setting all 3 of those are situational at best...  the 30 sec buffs do nothing when you're al ready mita capped, unless its an orange mob, even then they don't relly do a whole lot...  in a group setting i'm easily over the mita cap vs even cons (not may yellow around)...</P> <P>stonesphere is a kill me CA, the only times when the stoneskin would be useful the mobs have and AE think eyes in DT, curor, cheldrak, ect...  the effect doesn't last the whole 36 secs, it stops when the proc is used 6 times...  so situational at best...</P> <P>of those 3 only one (stonesphere) is something zerkers don't have...  rampage > stonesphere...</P> <P>and as we all know planeshifted conjy pet > all</P> <P>edited the number of procs</P><p>Message Edited by Wabit on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:48 PM</span>

[Wilin]

Berzerkers make great tanks. I don't think anyone is debating that. It's when people start wanting to qualify berzerkers tanking vs. guardian tanking that things start getting sticky. They each have a slightly different way of doing the same thing. But, the only thing that really matters is how well can you handle damage spikes? In most situations, the MT is not going to die from the DPS (AVERAGE damage per second) of the mobs. They will die from the spikes in damage, ie. when the hammerfist hits you for 12K while 2 other mobs are swinging at you. That is the crux of the evaluation when considering who is a better tank. I know how guardians do in those situations. Some of it is mitigated by abilities, and some of it is luck. Do berzerkers have anything besides luck on their side though? I don't know. Maybe they do. Just some food for thought...

[FightGame]

<P>Luck?  Are you serious?  Do you really think any class has more "Luck" than another?  I guess if the inquisitor's were the luckiest of them all, they could tank better than zerkers and guard together? [Removed for Content]</P> <P>Most of the time (like 99.9%), I'd say the regen of the zerker is equal to the hp buff of the guard.  The only time (0.1%) the hp buff would be better is, if the dragon happens to land a blow that is more than the zerk's hp, but less than a guards.  For example, raid buffed, I sit at a little over 12,000 (as a zerker).  Not sure exactly how much the guard gets with thier buff at this level.  For example let's say it's 800, so an equally geared guardian, assuming they chose the same 5% max health both times in the character traits, and everything else, would sit at 12,800.  If the dragon hits over 12,800 -  zerk or guard would die.  Only if it happen to hit between 12,001 and 12,799, assuming both were at max health when this hit landed (rare occasion), would the guard live for atleast another second.</P> <P> </P> <P>As I stated above I think the extra DPS zerker gets is atleast equal to the (maybe) extra taunt that the guard gets.</P> <P>All defensive buffs are the same.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=3>So, it pretty much comes down to guard having TOS.</FONT>  </P> <P><FONT size=2>(unless someone can prove this whole LUCK theory - and if they can, it's probably worth more than any of these abilities we're talking about lol)</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class=date_text>08-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:13 PM</span>

[Wilin]

<blockquote><hr>FightGame wrote:<P>Luck?  Are you serious?  Do you really think any class has more "Luck" than another?  I guess if the inquisitor's were the luckiest of them all, they could tank better than zerkers and guard together? [Removed for Content]</P><hr></blockquote>It's not a luck theory that varies by class. It's a luck theory that is assumed constant for all people. I was stating that it is one component in survivability and both guardians and zerkers have it. Please re-read the post objectively and don't take any comment about luck seriously in the future. It's an unproven theory that was was included just for fun. Have some fun in life. Anyway, Luck(or random chaotic nature of the cosmos or whatever you want to call it) plays a part in surviving spike damage. (Are we having fun yet?) If you take 2 hammer fists right after a debilitate goes off and your ToS isn't up, your luck is poor. If you take a hammerfist right after your healers have cycled heals on you and then get hit by 2 other mobs a quarter second later. Your luck is poor. This luck thing is fun and everyone has it. Yay!<blockquote><hr>FightGame wrote:<P><FONT size=3>So, it pretty much comes down to guard having TOS.</FONT>  </P><hr></blockquote>Ok, maybe it does just come down to TOS. I can pretty well agree with that. I think the different ways of taunting are roughly equivalent. (DPS vs better/more taunts) I don't know much about zerkers. If it is just TOS, Guards have it. Zerkers don't. Draw your own conclusions.

[premiere]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote: <P>stonesphere is a kill me CA, the only times when the stoneskin would be useful the mobs have and AE think eyes in DT, curor, cheldrak, ect...  the effect doesn't last the whole 36 secs, it stops when the proc is used 4 times... <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Im afraid that this incorrect.  The duration of the spell is 36 seconds it can receive up to 6 sources of dmg but it definately does not have a limited number of procs.  I have tested this thoroughly and have seen it proc stoneskin up to 8 times in one usage.  I have SS available upon request. </P> <P>Needless to say the spell is a great spell very useful in a tight situation where you would need the extra protection.  Id say I use it more for myself then for grp.  Although I have used it in both situations. </P>

[Anariale]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> premiere wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote: <P>stonesphere is a kill me CA, the only times when the stoneskin would be useful the mobs have and AE think eyes in DT, curor, cheldrak, ect...  the effect doesn't last the whole 36 secs, it stops when the proc is used 4 times... <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Im afraid that this incorrect.  The duration of the spell is 36 seconds it can receive up to 6 sources of dmg but it definately does not have a limited number of procs.  I have tested this thoroughly and have seen it proc stoneskin up to 8 times in one usage.  I have SS available upon request. </P> <P>Needless to say the spell is a great spell very useful in a tight situation where you would need the extra protection.  Id say I use it more for myself then for grp.  Although I have used it in both situations. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Sorry, youre wrong.</DIV> <DIV>Stonesphere can intercept an unlimited number of attacks for the duration.  You can only proc 6 stoneskins for the duration (which can be off hits directed at the Guardian, not necessarily just an intercept).  If you have a SS with more stoneskins, it either came from a Templar, Dirge or Tower of Stone being used at the same time.  Even so, to me, Stonesphere is anything but a "kill me" CA.  Its basically the 2nd "I win" button Guardians get... just behind Tower of Stone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the 30 second buffs being "useless" because you're "mitigation capped"... whatever.</DIV> <DIV><BR>W</DIV><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:06 PM</span>

[Wabit]

<P>i don't use stonesphere much...  it wiped us a few times when i had a conjy in the MT group (sacrfice hurts)...  it can read more than 6 but that comes from a multi attack CA usually (ToS does the same thing)...</P> <P>i'm finding sentuy watch to be useful more than stonesphere...  maybe i'd notice the difference more if we hadn't killed everything like 30 times...</P> <P>last night i went threw labs in off stance for all but 3 encounters (doom trio, corsolander, and the mob before it) used ToS twice (once on a pull, the other so i wouldn't get dead if the one dude exploded)...  i've tanked HoS 2H (when i got my spiffy hammer with the hate poc)...  so my opinions can be skewed at times, but i still think stonesphere is situational at best, LoA you can make the best use from it, DT not so much...</P>

[BetaMaster]

<DIV>Back when intercepts weren't working correctly, yes Stonesphere was a kill me skill because it didn't use our mit, it used the other player's mit... bad idea... Now that it is fixed it is an amazing ability, BUT!!! still must be used with caution.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have stonesphere up and a 4kdmg aoe goes off, your group can take that no problem... but if your taking that aoe dmg 6 times, you are going to die really fast.  So it can still be a kill me CA, but i would not call it that in general.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are two things that I use it for... the chance for stonesphere on mobs that don't aoe for a ton!, and to help me with aggro on multiple encounters... intercepting damage from another person builds aggro, and having stonesphere on after a big pull is very helpful to get the mobs on you so that inflaming defense can start doing its job and all the mobs are in range if you want to do a reinforced beseige.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for zerk vs guard... Zerkers are better at gaining aggro, Guards are better at staying alive... so if you have a guard that knows how to keep aggro, you're golden... same as having a zerker who knows how to stay alive........ BUT!!! keeping aggro has a limit to it, long as u have aggro, u don't necessarily need a bonus... for some things, HUGE abilities to stay alive are needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree completely that spike damage is the main reason for tanks dieing, which is why I have been sitting at around 14000-14500hp on raids recently with near capped mit... You can't go all out mit, u can't go all out hp, you need a balance.  for orange mobs, shoot for 7000+ range, i hit around 6200-6400, then with my temporary mit boosts it goes up to the cap... Temp buffs are HUGE!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Abomidable - Mistmoore</DIV> <DIV>~Lords of the Triple Moons</DIV>

[Wilin]

Yay, we're up to 2 "I win" tanking abilities. Do zerkers have any?

[FightGame]

There's been hundreds of these threads since this game started.  What matters most, is the person behind the controls.  Next comes luck! err maybe that comes first.  Next is gear and upgraded spells, which is tied with having a great group/raid, with people (healers specifically) being good behind their controls, and also with upgraded gear/spells.  This topic has been beaten to death.  Fact is, is that zerkers and guardians are both tanking everything in the game successfully, and sporting a buckler while doing it.  So if you want to count points, fine.  In your world, where only what you think matters, you are the best.  Meanwhile theres many zerkers out there doing exactly what you are doing, but better (atleast according to them and their raid, lol).  Since good players, zerkers and guards both, are being successful, do you really think that once a group or raid completes something, they are gonna sit back and say..."hmm maybe if we had the OTHER tank class, things would be soo much better" (even though they were successful?), or maybe one of the healers could say "hmmm, maybe if we had guard and he used tos that one time, I would not have had to spam 3 heals in a row".  I doubt it.  Be a good player, get good gear, and play with good people.  And being a zerker or a guard will get the job done, and that's all that matters.  I think everyone can agree with this.  And everyone knows that zerks and guards both are tanking everything in game successfully, so, again, it don't really matter.       the end. <P>Message Edited by FightGame on <SPAN class=date_text>08-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:37 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:38 PM</span>

[Belce]

Stop making sense Fightgame!

[Schube]

<DIV>Eh, time for my two cents <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Like most have said, its all about the person behind the keys.  A smart guardian will use Stone Sphere when he's the only person taking damage or the group is just taking minor damage, vs. a stupid guardian who was tanking The Guardian of Leadership in MoA x4, gotten him down to 20%, popped Stone Sphere, took the entire ae for his group without the stone skin effect, got one shotted due to it, and proceeded to wipe the raid all by himself.  I will never forget getting the tell from my friend on the raid asking me to come rescue them from this tank who will remain unnamed.  But yea, good story, peace out!</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Knesh wrote:<BR> <DIV>OMG invasion of the guardian boards!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If zerkers beat guardians and paladins beat zerkers than paladins also beat guardians. So paladins are uber tankage!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S the reasons SK were not involved in this analogy is because well they are sks they are the rangers of the tanking community!!!!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hey, watch it. WIth that analogy, add the fact that SK's POWN Pallies and therefore are the best tanks <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Belce]

I think that one of the reasons why guardians make great raid MT's is because people who want to do that and have experience doing that job looked at the class and saw it as a best choice for them. Therefore you have a greater percentage of quality MT players within this group. There are many reasons for choosing a particuliar class and this really only applies to some that play this class or even other fighter classes, but it does play a role. Think of the situation, you have a person who has played a few of these games before and has experience as a raid MT, they look at the selections, read Sony's all fighters can tank thing and do so nodding in a knowing way "hmmm, what is close to what I played before..."How many of us have grouped with other fighter types that are higher lvl and heard them say, "You tank, you do it better, hold agro better, etc." Guardian class tends to attract people that want to tank that encounter, have tanked a bunch of times before and know the job. Please note, just like other classes, there is no question asked, "Are you an idiot?" if so maybe this class isn't for you... before you can select it.So, the reason why guardians do well is due to them being the popular choice amongst those with previous raid/mt experience, which further reinforces the suggestion that the quality the player brings is most important.Still not convinvced? What are the reasons for someone wanting to play a healer class instead of a tank? What is going through the mind of someone that wants to solo well? How about someone that thinks, "To be certain, we should nuke it from orbit." And consider that people like to play classes similiar to what they have played before, to have similiar group roles as before.This effect is also further compounded by the fact that other people, playing different classes also bring their past experience to bear and look at the different fighters and ask, "Which is most like the one that did the job for me before?" Its easy to see why guardians do well as MT's because the people that want to be MT are predisposed to choose that class, the other players are predisposed to support that choice as well.Its the players behind the keyboards that plays a telling role in how good a MT they/them can be.<p>Message Edited by Belce on <span class=date_text>08-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:29 AM</span>

[Kule]

<div></div><div></div><font color="#ffffff" size="1">Why all the hate? Do you really think good can come out of this?</font><font color="#ffffff" size="1"></font><font color="#ffffff" size="1"></font><font color="#ffffff" size="1">   Let me introduce myself, I am a guardian that used to be a berserker. I went to 70 as a berserker and I enjoyed it incredibly. I never had a problem keeping up in groups, never wished I had something I didn't, and was a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good tank. I left the game for a while recently, and upon returning I wanted to switch it up and see if I could have more fun in the game. I decided to betray my main to guardian and make a DPS character in case I miss the DPS too much. My warlock is now 30 and having a blast, but the real story that pertains to this subject is with my main, Cadd:</font><font color="#ffffff" size="1"></font><font color="#ffffff" size="1"></font><font color="#ffffff" size="1">   The moment I betrayed I flushed time down the drain; I lost many, many masters. I knew this was the consequence to betraying, and I was ready to start over from the bottom of spell upgrades. I now have all adept3's of CA's used at 70. The only master I have obtained thus far is our STA buff, from Nek3. I chose the encounter AE Taunt for my master2 choice. I did the same as a berserker.</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ffffff" size="1">  Now, here are some general observations:</font><font color="#ffffff" size="1">- Guardians </font><font color="#ffffff" size="1"><i>do not</i></font><font color="#ffffff" size="1"> inheritly have more mitigation that Berserkers. That is a fact, don't let anybody else tell you otherwise. (+486 physical MIT from defense stance and ~314 from 8 point into </font><font color="#ffffff" size="1">Unshakable in the WIS line of warrior AA)</font><font color="#ffffff" size="1">- When you factor in timed buffs, nearly same story. { Berserker: 653 to slashing and piercing, 816 to crushing for 30 seconds on a 1.5 min. timer. { Guardian: 863 to slashing and piercing, 653 to crushing. { </font><font color="#ffffff" size="1">1104 MIT for 30 seconds on a one min. timer for both with potential hate loss.- Berserkers gain 1856 to Cold in defensive. { Guardians gain 1856 to Heat in defensive. { You can easily cap+ certain resists with fairly cheap gear.- Guardians add +66 STA to group. { Berserkers add +122 STR to group. { Almost every raid MT I have talked to sits at about 700-800 average STR prior to switching out for other stats or resists.- Berserkers adds +8200 HP regen to the throughout a 10 min fight. { Guardians adds a 677 additional cushion for burst DMG to the group every time they are fully healed.- Both have a Hold the Line always on self buff. Here are some stats on 100 chances on taking melee DMG) { Guardians potentially generates 23900 threat on any mob that damages him, spell or melee. (Same rate as the same as Insolent Gibe) { Berserkers potentially generates ~14480 threat on any mob that damages him with melee. (Including the DMG associated) (Can not proc on spell DMG) { Berserkers is subject to riposte on the DMG component of his HTL buff.- Berserkers have Insolent Gibe out of encounter taunt + reactive hate @ 50% upon taking DMG. { Guardians have Reinforcement 261 threat increase and hate position raised one position on each mob he hits, each time he hits.- Berserkers can counter attack 3 melee hits for potentially 300+ every 30 seconds, being subject to riposte. (Inherent melee counterattack) { Guardians can absorb 100% of DMG on three attacks that would have dealth more than 10% health. (Meaning it will not proc on trivial DMG but on bursts)</font><font color="#ffffff" size="1">- Berserkers are from New York City. { Guardians are from Compton, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</font><font color="#ffffff" size="1">- Guardians have thee 6 avoidance/interception CA's, 3 always on buffs. (+14.4 parry through one, and </font><font color="#ffffff" size="1">decrease a group members hate by 38% through another)</font><font size="1"></font><font color="#ffffff" size="1"> { Berserkers has 2. (+75 AGI through one) { I have only ever seen one piece of gear that increased parry.</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ffffff" size="1">Theres the things that pertain to Main Tanking a raid. Berserkers are better for XP groups because of DPS. That's it, no if's and's or but's about it. When it comes to raids, Guardians have the edge. If your doing some crazy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like trio'ing epics, a Guardian would be better for being able to sustain more raw DMG due to STA and HP buffs, avoid more DMG due to the DEF/Parry buff, intercept more DMG do to having many more CA's that do it, and take 3 large hits totally out of the equation.The berserkers HP regen is negated by riposte alone. I think it's a big enough amount [reposte] to matter when your main job is to mitigate DMG such as high end raid targets. Now if your tanking something that just requires you to keep the mobs on you, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], get any tank that is played by a player with ability.The guardians HP cushion can not be denied, as it is one of the most important stats a tank needs.<i>I'm open to debate</i> but the bottom line is they are the same except Guardians are more defensive and Berserkers are more offensive. </font><font color="#ffffff" size="1">When your main job is to mitigate DMG, such as high end raid targets, you cannot deny Guardians have an edge. It doesn't matter if people think it's small or enormous. Now, if your tanking something that just requires you to keep the mobs on you, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], get any tank that is played by a player that can play worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</font><blockquote><hr><font size="1">zavox wrote:</font><div><font size="1">Now I'm realy tired of people who think berserkers can't be used as tank in a group or a rai</font><font color="#339900" size="1"><font color="#ffffff">d</font><font color="#33cc00">Who are you talking about? Your raid leader? Then tell him you want to tank. Or find a new guild.</font></font><font size="1"></font></div><div><font size="1">Guardians aren't better tanks than berserkers!</font><font color="#33cc00" size="1">No they aren't, if that's the end of the sentence.</font><font size="1"><font color="#ffffff">A berserker owns a guardian in duels and doesn't got any problems with tanking the same encounters as guardians.<font color="#33cc00">I'm sorry but duels have nothing to do with tanking ability. Can you beat an Inquisitor with FT40? No? YOU CAN'T TANK, Z()MgZ!</font></font></font></div><div><font size="1">The only difference I have noticed is that berserkers can solo, and guradians need a friend or two to even think about killing something that ain't green or blue. If anyone have noticed a difference that I missed, please post.</font></div><font color="#33cc00" size="1">Maybe it's a matter of a player being ready to solo? Both classes have access to the Warrior AA paths, and the buckler line will double DPS for either class.</font><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffffff" size="1">(All statistical observations made in this post are theoretical, using Master 1 values)Like I said many times before, it's the player behind the avatar that matters the most, but you ask a question in which I have asked myself many times, and had an answer for ya.Cheers, and play better or speak up to who you play with.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Kuleon on <span class=date_text>08-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:03 AM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<P>Excellent write up Cadd. Now, if you could look as good as I do tanking you would truly be the primo tank <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Hey, it's not easy being sexy in pink <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P> </P>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kuleon wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffffff size=1><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=1>- Berserkers are from New York City.<BR> { Guardians are from Compton, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<BR><BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>[Removed for Content], nuff said there...  guards > zerkers (unless you're into Broadway)</P>

[brett211]

<P>To what Belce said,</P> <P>That is exactly why I picked a Guard. I'm new to this game and loving it, and upon character selection I wanted the class to be the best tank available, because it is my favorite role in a MMORPG. Lvl 16, doing BB groups, and no let downs whatsoever :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Artem]

<blockquote><hr>Knightrider wrote:<DIV>How many guilds have beaten Chel'drak with anything less than a Guardian tanking? Enough said.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Heisenberg - 70 Guardian</DIV><DIV>Dissolution - Nektulos</DIV><hr></blockquote>Actually The Tribunal on butcherblock has beat cheldrak with a zerker tanking about, 6 times now and not to mention we have 1 pulled him several times an we were in top 5 WW to kill him.Guardians only plus side over a zerker is ToS and thier HP buff. Other then that they are esentially the same<p><p>Message Edited by Artemis on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:07 PM</span>