Looking for help, advice, and information from seasoned tanks

[Killebr]

<DIV>Hey all, looking for any input that you have.  I recently started up a guardian to retire my 56 monk so that I can tank with my guild.  I'm leader of a very small guild on guk mostly consisting of real life friends.  We all quit for awhile and I returned a month or 2 earlier so my then 40 monk quickly out leveled their brand new charactes.  I tank obviously well when mentored due to great gear for my level plus all my extra CAs and AAs.  But, anyway, I decided to just level up a real tank because a plate tank will be a lot easier for anything outside of exp, especially since our main healer is a templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, there's the background, sorry for rambling.  Here are my questions:<BR><BR>1.) AAs.  I've read most of the posts and discussions about the AA lines.  I don't remember them all offhand but I'm between a few.  There is one master technique at the end of one of the lines that basically gives you a ton of bonus for any time that you are under 50%.  I don't like activated abilities for AAs, passive are much better (I'd prefer not to throw another buff into the mess I already have.)  Is this ability worth it?  Also, I'm hesitant to use the STA (I think) line w/ the Buckler bonuses.  I really don't like the idea of using a buckler.  All the stats and numbers I've seen show how a buckler+STA line more than makes up for losing a real shield.  But what about a real shield + another line for added defense and offense?  I'm looking for the best AA make up for a tank that just wants to tank.  I can solo on my monk.  We have plenty of dps.  I just need to tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.)  Specialized traits.  First, do I go for +2.5% of max health or in-combat power regen?  On my monk, all I heard was power regen.  But, even though I burn through power quickly, my CAs aren't as important to me as they were on my monk.  As long as I keep agro, I'm good.  Putting out 150% more dps, while great for soloing, means almost nothing for groups.  The extra dps I put out is about 10% of a scouts and ultimately makes little difference.  It seems like the extra health would be better than 1-2 extra CAs each combat.<BR>Second part of traits, any recommendations for master 2's?  Right now I'm 26.  I'm keeping pretty much every CA I have at adept 3 or master 1 so it's not making a HUGE difference.  Input would be helpful though.<BR><BR>I'm very good at pulling, keeping agro, and 'leading' a group or raid.  I've played my monk a lot and tanked almost every group and I played EQ1 for years and years.  <BR><BR>But any advice on gear, spells, and AAs would be very helpful.  Or any general helpful hints for playing  guardian.  One big difference I've noticed is I have a ton of buffs compared to my monk.  Is there any strategy during combat for certain buffs?  I heard some buffs can be used effectively in combat for gaining agro.  The only incombat buffs I've done really is the 30s duration party buff that increases defensive skills and occasionally the 'hunker down' line of spells for sticky situations.<BR><BR>Sorry for the long post and thanks again for any help.</DIV>

[Tyrion]

<P>Following information is based on the assumption you won't be raiding:</P> <P>1) One thing to keep in mind with tanking is that it's both taking damage AND holding aggro, so the more damage dealt, the easier it is to keep the giant dragon focused on you. While I subscribe wholeheartedly to the Stamina AA line (so freaking good), if you really don't want to use a buckler, consider Strength and Wisdom lines. I believe Wisdom line is a must regardless of how you play just because of the extra mitigation, and strength line gives you more hate, more criticals, and well, more strength.</P> <P>2) Always +2.5% health, and always +4 stamina. Life, life and more life is all I can say. Life is one of the few things you can always rely on. And in regards to master 2s, always choose taunts and aggro-oriented attacks. Big difference between a master 2 taunt and an adept 3 one. Oh, and always go for the highest mitigation items possible. At higher levels, there's trade offs between stats and mitigation, but at your level, do everything you can to aquire rare/dropped legendary armour.</P> <P>From what you've said, I doubt you'll have many problems. Your group and self mitigation buffs are good for adds and named mobs, but do NOT generate aggro like they used to. Just handle adds with a quick taunt or AoE.</P> <P>Most importantly of all, just have fun and enjoy your Guardian.</P>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<DIV>Some answers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. AA</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I went for STR and WIS line myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4-4-8-8 on both lines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10% Hate increase, huge mitigation boost along with increased crit chance and dps boost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am very happy with it so far but I have to admit I never tried out the STA line - mostly because of the lack of good bucklers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the role you describe for your Guardian the above AA setup might be better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Traits</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last time I checked, the health and power regen were out of combat only - therefore worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I always went for Max HP, either through HP or STA traits. The only thing you might want to consider is choose an AGI trait sometimes since AGI will be harder to raise than STA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Buffs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are two 30s buffs you can use while grp tanking, one is the command line (blue) the other the Wall of... line (yellow).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Use them one after the other, starting with the command line (faster refresh).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Depending on what you fight, you can choose between offensive and defensive stance. If your equipment is comparably well, you can try tanking white cons and lower in offensive stance. Against yellows you should definitely use your def. stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Spells / CA's Upgrading</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First the Taunts, then the stances, then the buffs, then high damage CA's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this helps.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sir_Halbarad on <span class=date_text>07-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 AM</span>

[Killebr]

Thanks very much for the replies and the info does help a lot.  <BR><BR>I will say that the STA line intrigues me and if I happen across a nice buckler in high T6 or T7, I will probably respec my AAs and try it out.  While leveling up, I think I'm going to go STR and WIS for now.  I started with WIS first for no real reason other than my resists are really bad hehe.<BR><BR>I do believe that it increases in-combat power and health regen but it's not hugely significant.  Having a Manastone or some potions will completely offset those.  I've done +sta and 2.5% health so far.  <BR><BR>Again, thanks for all the advice.

[FightGame]

<P>The choices (atleat for me as an iksar zerker) were:</P> <P> </P> <P>+2.5% total health</P> <P>+2.5% total power</P> <P>+5 per tick (6 seconds) to in-combat health regen</P> <P>+5 per tick (6 seconds) to in-combat power regen</P> <P> </P> <P>And I got to pick between these twice.  Initially I choose the in-combat power regen.  Since T6 when I started tanking raids, I respec'd and chose the +2.5% total health, both times.  I sure miss the +10/tick of in-combat power regen, but I'm sure the 5% more total health, and learning to conserve power, has helped with the raids.</P>

[BoneSmasher]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by BoneSmasher on <span class=date_text>07-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[BoneSmasher]

<p>Message Edited by BoneSmasher on <span class=date_text>07-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[BoneSmasher]

<DIV>I went Str / Wis for the hate gain and added mitigation.  Also, remember that STR determines your power pool.  Guardians get the highest HP / Lowest Power pool of all tanks.  If you are tanking for groups / raids and that is why you make a Guardian, then power is more important than a couple of hundred hitpoints.  Having enough power to get off one more taunt or rescue is why better than having extra hit points that can barely cover 1/4 to 1/2 of a single mob hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation is king at raid level.  And makes up for the difference in hit points.  If you have 500 extra hit points that helps on one attack.  If you can mitigate an extra 200 - 300 damage every time you get hit, you effectvely added a couple of thousand hit points on the back end that you are not losing anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every ounce of hate gain you can add, with AA, Inflaming Defense at Adept 3 or Master, All tuants Master 2 or at least Adept 3, then you are better off.  Even though 1 point of damage is equal to 1 point of taunt in the equation, gaurds get more points from taunts than damage simply because we don't have the DPS to overcome the power of our taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For instance:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protection Master II              971 - 1187 20  second recast AOE tuant</DIV> <DIV>Confront Adept 3                  985 - 1205 8 second recast</DIV> <DIV>Vindictive Strike Adept 3      858 - 1048 hate + 114 - 191 Dmg 10 second recast</DIV> <DIV>Goading Assault Adept 3     803 Hate to Encounter + 196 - 326 Dmg</DIV> <DIV>Inflaming Defence A 3          418 hate every time any mob hits you</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In one minute you can generate 3000 hate + 7000 hate + 6500 Hate & Dmg + 2000 hate & Dmg and assume you get hit 10 times for another 4100 hate.  That adds up to : 22,600 * 1.10 (10% hate gain from AA) = 24.600 hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obliterate Adept 3               675 - 1125 Dmg 60 second recast</DIV> <DIV>Flay adept 3                         773 - 1289 Dmg 60 second recast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of our CAs combined that you can fire in one minute would add about 6000 dmg (hate if 1 to 1 ratio), providing that they all hit.  I parse about a 92 % hit percentage.  You cannot parse taunts, but I don't see a lot of resists.  From experience I would say I get an equal amount of "hits"  on taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid buffed I have a little over 11,000 hit points and 5500+ mitigation with 58% avoidance even though I am still gearing up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I put all of my points into the stamina line that might add 1500 hit points raid buffed.  Since the mobs hit for up to 13000 dmg which I am mitgatiing down to 6500 dmg (on these huge hits), I would rather have the extra mitigation any day over extra hitpoints.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For raiding at least, mitgation, resists, and power pool are king in my opinion.  If you try to gear and build stats in that direction, it jsut makes group tanking a lot easier anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope that helps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Killebr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BoneSmasher wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope that helps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Very much, thank you.  Great advice.  I'm a seasoned EQ1 player and in that game extra hp >>>>> extra AC (armor class / mitigation.)  I'm beginning to realize that in this game, HP, to an extent, is not that important.  <BR><BR>If you have 8000 hp with 50% mitigation, you can effectively receive 16000 damage (if mitigation was zero, 16000 damage would be inflicted) before you die.<BR><BR>If you have 5000 hp with 80% mitigation, you can effectively receive 25000 damage before you die.<BR><BR>Technically, a tank with 3200 hp and 80% mitigation would survive equally as long as a tank with 8000hp and 50% mitigation assuming all other factors are the same.<BR><BR>In EQ1, it was no where near this obvious.  I had never considered the numbers this way.<BR><BR>What stat, if any, has a result on mitigation?  I know AGI affects avoidance, but do any stats besides strait defense effect total mitigation?  Does Intelligence do anything for guards?<BR><BR>Thanks again<BR>

[BoneSmasher]

<P>If you ever want to test how mitigation works, go to HoF and get debilitated so that your mitigation is dropped to 1.  lol  NASTY!!!</P> <P>Armor  and items with +crushing +piercing + slash affect mitigation.  None of the primary stats affect it in any way.  It is totally equipment based.  Sheild factor also plays a part in yor mitigation.</P> <P>For Teir 6, mastercrafted cobalt is hard to beat.  Better than T5 fabled.  That was one of the big issues that made it look like guardians took a big nerfing in LU 13.  In reality since gaurdians are so gear dependant, the huge scew up SONY did on the armor quality for that teir that coincided with DoF, really made the difference. They admitted later that they had done this.  That coupled with the broken intercept line made guardians nearly unplayable until you could get into full cobalt for any T6 content.</P> <P>T7 legendary is better than T6 fabled in my opinion.  But T7 crafted is not better than T6 fabled.</P> <P>In each teir below T6, mastercrafted rare armor is the way to go unless you can get fabled.</P> <P>Don't be seduced by gear with fancy stuff like haste or stats if it has lower mitigation than what you are wearing.  Always pick gear with the highest mitigation unless it is only a few points in exchange for better stats.  50 points of migations is > than adding 25 STA on a peice of gear for instance.</P> <P>Haste is meaningless to guardians anyway since it only affects auto attack speed.  Our auto attack damage is so low that it is laughable.  As long as I don't run completely out of power, I find that soloing with a very good one hander and shield is better for me than a 2-hander or dual wield.  Also, remember that the weapon itself does not modify your CA damage in any way.  You get the same CA damage from a duel wield weapon that you get from a big strong 2 hander.  The base damage of the weapon is not additive from what I have seen.</P> <P>The CA does in damage what is in the stats on the CA, period.  So, for me, the best one hander I can get with the best shield I can get is better than some awesome 2 handers I have.  But hey, the 2 handers do look cool.  </P> <P>Lower tiers, pristine imbued, rare crafted weapons are about the best you can do short of fabled weapons.  Same for shields.</P> <P>According to posts by SONY devs, 2 handers, 1 handers and duel wield will proc at the same overall rate.  So having 2 imbued duel wield weapons would proc 3 times in a fight or a one hander would proc 3 times in the same fight and a 2 hander would proc 3 times in the same fight.  So having the duel wield will not net you 6 procs in that fight.  That is what SONY says anyway.  The perception may seem different but I doubt the game coders are that far off.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>   </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by BoneSmasher on <span class=date_text>07-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:24 PM</span>

[Domiuk]

<DIV>"Our auto attack damage is so low that it is laughable"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That kinda depends on gear, AA and group makeup.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I promise you it can get very good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I sit at 40% haste and 26% DPS solo with rings a lot of the time im procced another 26% dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My MT Group Dirge gives me another 37% DPS, The defiler another 16% Haste.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So much of my time I am in the 80-90s for both Haste and DPS and that autoattack dmg is considerable and it costs 0 power to maintain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bit sad this will at some point come to an end as at the moment I suspect I am as powerful (for relative level) as I ever will be in the game , good armour almost entirely mastered and my dps is good enough that I feel like I changed class at some point in the last few months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[FightGame]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Killebrew wrote:<BR> <BR>What stat, if any, has a result on mitigation?  I know AGI affects avoidance, but do any stats besides strait defense effect total mitigation?  Does Intelligence do anything for guards?<BR><BR>Thanks again<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Defense does NOT affect mitigation.  Defense affects your base avoidance (part of total avoidance)...just like agility.  Other parts of your total avoidance are block (comes from shield protection number), parry, and deflection (which plate classes get none).  I've found that +1 defense equals about 6.6 agility.  Intelligence does nothing, except allows you to do more magic based damage.  If you have no ability that does magic damage, Intelligence does nothing.  The only thing that affects mitigation, is mitigation itself, or some type of gear that has + to vs. piercing, slashing, or crushing.  1 piercing + 1 slashing + 1 crushing = 1 mitigation.  For example if you had some equipment with 500 mitigation, and it also had +140 to slashing, this would equal 500 + (140/3) = 547 total mitigation.</DIV>

[FightGame]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BoneSmasher wrote:<BR> <P>T7 legendary is better than T6 fabled in my opinion.  But T7 crafted is not better than T6 fabled.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Some t7 crafted may be better than t6 fabled, depends on what level you are, what level the gear is, and how many levels away the t6 fabled is.  For example, if you are level 61, and you were comparing some level 58 fabled to level 61 crafted, then yes, the fabled will be better.  But if you are level 61 and comparing some level 51 fabled to level 60 crafted, then probably not.  Don't go by the mitigation number itself.  Mouse over the mitigation and check the percentages - that's what matters.  Once the gear is so many levels below you (haven't figured out the cut-off point yet), you take a hit to it's mitigation - not the raw number, but the percent.  The raw number will be the same, but the percent will change as you out grow it.  I've done many tests that prove this.  Last test I did was comparing some level 67 and 68 fabled gear I have.  Don't remember all the numbers, but the level 68 had 20 more mitigation, and equalled about 0.5% mitigation.  Then equipped the curius of djinn (fabled level 5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, which was 20 mitigation lower than the level 67.  If level didn't matter, you'd expect to see another 0.5% lower, but it was 1.8% lower.  So those 10 levels difference was like losing 72 mitigation instead of stated 20.<BR><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:58 PM</span>

[Wabit]

<DIV>if you have t6 fabled don't bother with the t7 rare crafted armor...  the stats blow and the money/time invested in gathering the rares is better spent camping the dragons in PoA, doing den, BSS, and HoF for upgrades there...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why bother with the replacing gear thats gonna be replaced again shortly???  first time we killed vyemm i was still mostly in t6 fabled (not even the good fabled cause i was buffing resists)...</DIV>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<P>With taunts, it often makes more sense to buy Protection M1 (which is dirt cheap), then take either Beseige or Flay at M2. Then if you get lucky and loot either of these much rarer abilities at M1, consider a respec. In fact, it can be ideal to take the M2 of the AE attack at 54, since it uses less power and does approx. the same damage as Adept III Beseige, then M2 Flay at 64, because it's a helluva rare M1 drop.</P> <P>As far as AA, sta 4 4 8 4 8 and wis 4 4 5 8 is pretty hard to beat. 77% double attack, 10% decreased power use, free (although tiny) heals, 440 mit, and 15% dps mod isn't bad. Plus you get belly smash thrown in which is very handy to precede Flay with (1200 mitigation debuff followed by 1000-1600 crushing attack = ouch).</P> <P>Many Guardians do aim to really max mitigation and avoidance at the expense of all else; I can see their logic but imo no encounter in the game exists really that's hard enough to justify crippling your DPS (and thus hate generation) for this goal. In particular, everything is tankable with a buckler, and really no tower shield exists bar perhaps the claymore reward that would justify giving up the double attack permanently for. For me, the only reason I haul tower shields around is to swap in for Tower of Stone. One other advantage is that the buckler double attack also applies to your bow, giving you roughly a 2k nuke on a 7 second timer with no power cost. You can often pull an add off a group member just by sticking an arrow in it, and hitting for more than a taunt would.</P>