a bit disturbing?

[JNewby]

<DIV>I am wondering all you other guardians.. waht is it that makes guards a better tank over zerkers? if they are at all.. we both have the same defensive buffs temporary ones... I believe actually zerkers get one mroe then we do... also they get a spell that allows them to avoid death... and in turn we get a 600 life buff and 50 some stamina buff and ToS... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it a bit disturbing and am wondering what makes us much more defensive of tanks as compared to them? now I realise as of now guards are doing amazing dmg... maybe not zerker dmg but very good so maybe it is balanced... but it jsut seems to me that really guards are the same as zerkers jsut a few trade offs ie </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>gaurds: ToS and life buff</DIV> <DIV>zerkers: visions of madness and extra mit buff?? also they have health regen.. whatever atht is worth</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess I just dont see how we are acutally better defensive tanks then them in anyway, any ideas?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bathory72]

<div></div>berserkers got the same mitigation buffs like guardians.berserkers: vision of madness (recast time 30 min) and a health regen (not so good)guardians: tower of stone, defense buff, health buff and a stamina buff.do you really think berserkers are better defensive tanks because of one spell (vom)?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Bathory72 on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 PM</span>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bathory72 wrote:<BR> berserkers got the same mitigation buffs like guardians.<BR><BR>berserkers: vision of madness (recast time 30 min) and a health regen (not so good)<BR>guardians: tower of stone, defense buff, health buff and a stamina buff.<BR><BR>do you really think berserkers are better defensive tanks because of one spell (vom)?<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Bathory72 on <SPAN class=date_text>06-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:46 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>well vom is pretty uber.. but the sta and def buff arent so useful as in raids my sta is like 650 and def is like 480 way past the cap... so those 2 spells dont really do anything</P> <P>tos I use maybe once per raid.. its not a bad spell it is good.. but I owuld rahter have vom anyday of the week..</P> <P>so does health + tos = vom + health regen  maybe it does</P> <P>but the fact is we are suppost to be more defensive... even if you were to argue that guards tos and health buffi s better... it is very marginal.. and that is erally my point... I just dont see how we are the more defensive class</P> <P> </P>

[Huna]

<DIV>VoM is hardly uber. I've tried it on raids, and if they hit you hard enough to kill you, when you come back you have like 6% hps, so you are immediately hit again and die.  In regular grouping it's pretty nice, and has saved my butt several times.  Now if it brought you back to life, and you had a temporary invulnerability while it healed you back up a little bit, that would be excellent.  It's been established that guardians are the most defensive tanks.  I'm not sure about the ToS skill but I've read quite a few posts talking about the cost of having it repaired after raids, so it must be pretty useful.</DIV>

[Huna]

<DIV>Oh yeah, one more thing, a hp buff is much better than hp regen on a raid.  Our hp regen isn't very useful on raids, but the extra hps is always useful.</DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hunadi wrote:<BR> <DIV>Oh yeah, one more thing, a hp buff is much better than hp regen on a raid.  Our hp regen isn't very useful on raids, but the extra hps is always useful.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>well I know when a monk casts aqlturism on me on raids.. which is the same thing as far as I know as vom I come back every time jsut fine... </P> <P>but yeah I granted you taht our hp buff is better then health regen... my question was does that warrent being called the most defensive tank... cause honestly there is no diff between us cept (health regen, vom) and us (Health buff and ToS)</P> <P>and btw Tos is a spell that absorbs 3 hits and does about 10% to a tower sheild.. a nice spell sure but it imo is equal to vom actually I think I would rather have vom given how well teh brawler one works for me.. </P> <P>my basic point is I jsut dont see where guards are more defensive.. sure it can be said but it doesnt erally work out that way..</P>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Um altriusm is not the same thing as vom. Altruism Fake deaths you until you stand up which means you can be fully healed before you stand up and regain agro since fake death does not wipe agro. furthermore guards get tos, guardians sphere, and reinforcement? (the hate proc anceint spell). As well as your defensive hate proc adds more overall hate. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:24 PM</span>

[Ep]

Vom is great, it is on a 30min timer from since when it was cast, and when it went off, so it's pretty limiting.honestly, just ToS in my mind is what makes a guard 1% tanking edge vs a zerker, i mean is there anything else really that gives such an edge?<div></div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Epyx wrote:<BR>Vom is great, it is on a 30min timer from since when it was cast, and when it went off, so it's pretty limiting.<BR><BR>honestly, just ToS in my mind is what makes a guard 1% tanking edge vs a zerker, i mean is there anything else really that gives such an edge?<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>hah maybe about 450 more dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> tos isnt all that hot being that it ruins yer gear... on raids I use it once or 2 times... and i have to switch out shields so it takes awhile and i am ususly dead or not in truble anymore haha... </P> <P>its a god spell sure esp since I got about 10 piles of legendary towersheillds now ahha but I dont htink 2 spells ie tos and life buff well ok those give maybe  a 1% edge but heh 1% is kinda weak... considering zerkers do have counter spells which may not be as good ie vom and health regen... but all the same def buffs they have</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Um altriusm is not the same thing as vom. Altruism Fake deaths you until you stand up which means you can be fully healed before you stand up and regain agro since fake death does not wipe agro. furthermore guards get tos, guardians sphere, and reinforcement? (the hate proc anceint spell). As well as your defensive hate proc adds more overall hate. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>06-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:24 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>guard sphere is anot a defensive spell it soaks dmg of group ie insta death on raids... reinforcement is a tuant... which zerkers make up way more with thier supiroer dps... and zerkers also get a hate proc as well as guards... I can concede tos may be bettter then vom so like I stated it is our better tos vs vom and our beter health buff vs heatlh regfen that makes us the "defensive tank"</P> <P>I think maybe they shoudl call zerkers and guards about the same cause I dont see to mcuh of a diff, which is fine I suppose I mean same architype guards do fine dps  no complaints there jsut what we get mostly over a zerker are those dumb dmg soaks whoich noone needs especially on riads <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Um altriusm is not the same thing as vom. Altruism Fake deaths you until you stand up which means you can be fully healed before you stand up and regain agro since fake death does not wipe agro. furthermore guards get tos, guardians sphere, and reinforcement? (the hate proc anceint spell). As well as your defensive hate proc adds more overall hate. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>06-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:24 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>guard sphere is anot a defensive spell it soaks dmg of group ie insta death on raids... reinforcement is a tuant... which zerkers make up way more with thier supiroer dps... and zerkers also get a hate proc as well as guards... I can concede tos may be bettter then vom so like I stated it is our better tos vs vom and our beter health buff vs heatlh regfen that makes us the "defensive tank"</P> <P>I think maybe they shoudl call zerkers and guards about the same cause I dont see to mcuh of a diff, which is fine I suppose I mean same architype guards do fine dps  no complaints there jsut what we get mostly over a zerker are those dumb dmg soaks whoich noone needs especially on riads <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am not going to get into semantics but do the math the dam+hate x 25% proc rate vs the 50% hate proc rate makes the guard proc substantially better. Reinforcements adds hate positions which is substantially better then pure damage and guad sphere works well depending on the mob, i am not saying it doesn have its limits, but not every mob has aoe's. Guards single target dps is not terribly far off from bezerkers anymore. As several parses have shown. Although no fighter class can touch a zerk aoe dps.

[Crim001]

<P>Reinforcement, IMO, is one of the best aggro saves that I have seen, especially in a group-mob situation. Throw on reinforcement, use Taunting assualt, follow up with Tremor and you pretty much will have aggro back.</P> <P>But to respond to Gungo and JNewby....why are you arguing over whose hate spell works better?</P>

[Ep]

I thought the main question was, what would make a guard tank better than a zerker.I don't really know where aggro and dps and hp regens come into play.Sure sure, it's all about sustained aggro/ +hate whatever... but i guess the question as i saw it was, what would make a guardian take blows better than a zerker.And the simple answer really is ToS, nothing else makes a difference tanking wise.Sure aggro/hate would seem to make a difference in how we "tank" since it makes the mob attack us, which then makes us use our special absorb mob hits... but really have a coercer/dirge and you really don't loose aggro, sure on trash mobs soe warlock or monk will over aggro on a group mob, everyone wants to make it high on the parser =p But when it comes to the boss mob inc, they know to "tone it down to managable lvls" or when they aggro and the frontal aoe hits... anyway barring that boring little gist, besides "soe's vision" of how a guardian is supposed to protect group ppl and a zerker is supposed to into a fury rage and somehow self-revive to come back the same day and do more dmg... The only thing that lets a guard tank  1% marginally better than a zerker is ToS, we're really 2 sides of a double headed coin.<div></div>

[aislynn00]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Epyx wrote:<BR><BR>Sure aggro/hate would seem to make a difference in how we "tank" since it makes the mob attack us, which then makes us use our special absorb mob hits... but really have a coercer/dirge and you really don't loose aggro</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Try tanking the Doom Ravager (part of the doom trio) in Laboratory of Lord Vyemm or, say, Sunchild in Court of Al'Afaz.  You <EM>will</EM> lose aggro when the mob messes with its hate table, and in such situations, Reinforcement is <EM>the</EM> best aggro recovery tool in the game--a tool which berserkers don't get. </P> <P>Also, if you lose aggro to someone in your group during such fights, try Sentry Watch after LU24 goes live.  If someone in your group dies while SW is up, you move up one position on that mob's hate list while the person's life is saved.  It will also help generate initial aggro if that is an issue:  Put an assassin, wizard, or any other class with very hard-hitting abilities in your group, have her use her highest damage attack/spell right after you pull and put up SW, let her die, then smile as you gain many thousand points of hate the moment SW kicks in and saves her life.  </P> <P>Sentry Watch: Another immensely useful tool in the guardian's arsenal--another tool which berserkers don't get.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Epyx wrote:<BR><BR>The only thing that lets a guard tank  1% marginally better than a zerker is ToS, we're really 2 sides of a double headed coin.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What about Plant?  I should say that an AE root with a 22% attack speed and 22% DPS debuff component is worthy of being mentioned.  Berserkers don't get Plant or anything like it, of course.</P> <P>And as for the Guardian Sphere line, I use it time and again on raids, no matter whether the mob AE's or not.  Usually, the only person in my group who sometimes gets hit by an AE is the dirge, and he knows how to dodge out of range, so I can count on one hand the number of times he has been hit by an AE while GS was up.</P> <P>Guardian Sphere:  Yet another life-saver ability which berserkers don't have.</P> <P>Bottom line, guardians and berserkers aren't the same, at all.  We share a few key abilities, most importantly our short-term mitigation buffs, which means both classes are great vs physical damage, but beyond that, the berserker is primarily about aggro maintenance and (AE) damage output while guardians excel in aggro <EM>recovery</EM> combined with peerless survivability when everthing threatens to fall apart.</P>

[black_cap]

very nicely put, I agree100%. <div></div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Epyx wrote:<BR><BR>Sure aggro/hate would seem to make a difference in how we "tank" since it makes the mob attack us, which then makes us use our special absorb mob hits... but really have a coercer/dirge and you really don't loose aggro</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Try tanking the Doom Ravager (part of the doom trio) in Laboratory of Lord Vyemm or, say, Sunchild in Court of Al'Afaz.  You <EM>will</EM> lose aggro when the mob messes with its hate table, and in such situations, Reinforcement is <EM>the</EM> best aggro recovery tool in the game--a tool which berserkers don't get. </P> <P>Also, if you lose aggro to someone in your group during such fights, try Sentry Watch after LU24 goes live.  If someone in your group dies while SW is up, you move up one position on that mob's hate list while the person's life is saved.  It will also help generate initial aggro if that is an issue:  Put an assassin, wizard, or any other class with very hard-hitting abilities in your group, have her use her highest damage attack/spell right after you pull and put up SW, let her die, then smile as you gain many thousand points of hate the moment SW kicks in and saves her life.  </P> <P>Sentry Watch: Another immensely useful tool in the guardian's arsenal--another tool which berserkers don't get.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Epyx wrote:<BR><BR>The only thing that lets a guard tank  1% marginally better than a zerker is ToS, we're really 2 sides of a double headed coin.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What about Plant?  I should say that an AE root with a 22% attack speed and 22% DPS debuff component is worthy of being mentioned.  Berserkers don't get Plant or anything like it, of course.</P> <P>And as for the Guardian Sphere line, I use it time and again on raids, no matter whether the mob AE's or not.  Usually, the only person in my group who sometimes gets hit by an AE is the dirge, and he knows how to dodge out of range, so I can count on one hand the number of times he has been hit by an AE while GS was up.</P> <P>Guardian Sphere:  Yet another life-saver ability which berserkers don't have.</P> <P>Bottom line, guardians and berserkers aren't the same, at all.  We share a few key abilities, most importantly our short-term mitigation buffs, which means both classes are great vs physical damage, but beyond that, the berserker is primarily about aggro maintenance and (AE) damage output while guardians excel in aggro <EM>recovery</EM> combined with peerless survivability when everthing threatens to fall apart.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I dont know what raids you do but taking unmitigated dmg x6 is insta gib with guard sphere... moreover if they removed the dmg soak on guardian sphere then the spell would rock...</P> <P>we have rienforcemnt yes however 1 point of dmg = 1 point of hate so doing more dps = more hate</P> <P>plant is a nice debuff kinda strange dont think of guards as debuffers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>but as far as defense I am guesing that tos is the answer, regardless of the 5 tower shields I ogtta lug aorund <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>the best surviablity spell I ahve is the tsunami I got from aa's that is the best spell we have for raids hands down.. it has saved me proabaly like 2 times per raid.. at minimum tos doesnt last long enough to really save and it takes to long to cast being I have to change out shields...</P> <P>and about the trio and getting back aggro they lose aggro but come right back with 1 tuant.. or it just kills the wizzy or whatever hit it and comes back.. <BR></P>

[Sirlutt]

reinforcement rocks... its rescue on a 3 min timer.. i use it alot... by far one of the best abilities we get along side TOS.try reinforcement + your true AE, or your AE damage tant,, very nice,the intercept lines will be alot moreuseful after LU24 .. right now they are either suicide, or at best really hit and miss... if the stone skin for Guard Sphere doesnt kick off, your dead.. lol<div></div>

[Ep]

i've tanked the trio, and like a poster said, it's just a matter of running back your casters(your never lucky that it'll mem wipe and aggro a close melee, you always seem to have to run heh) and taunting once or twice. besides he mem wipes 3x or so b4 he's down, only so many times you can cast reinforcement.and like said b4 1dps=1aggro if my taunts are burnt up, then i'll open up my big can oit still doesn't help what i thought the original arguement was about, what makes the difference in a guard and zerker, in absorbing hits. And i still stand by that only ToS makes the difference<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Epyx wrote:i've tanked the trio, and like a poster said, it's just a matter of running back your casters(your never lucky that it'll mem wipe and aggro a close melee, you always seem to have to run heh) and taunting once or twice. besides he mem wipes 3x or so b4 he's down, only so many times you can cast reinforcement.and like said b4 1dps=1aggro if my taunts are burnt up, then i'll open up my big can oit still doesn't help what i thought the original arguement was about, what makes the difference in a guard and zerker, in absorbing hits. And i still stand by that only ToS makes the difference<div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats great for mem wipes.. those are easy .. harder is an over zealous caster or brawler or scout getting agro .. that stuff isnt a simple taunt to recover most of the time.. thats when reinforcement is a raid saver .. with a 3 min recast its usuable once or twice a fight at least.While its true 1 Damage  = 1 Agro who knows how much DPS its going to take to put you back up to the top of the hate list .. reinforcement jumps you a level each hit, regardless of how much damage you do.  DPS is great for adding to sustained agro, and even as a Guard when i have the power regen I am pumping my damage abilities aswell.. but reinforcement is fantastic for that oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] moment that shouldnt have happened.. but did.TOS is great too.  As far as AA stuff goes I'm not wasting 20 points to get that 12 sec 100% parry .. i dont think its worth that.  If the only way you can complete an encouter is using that, then the strat needs to be rethinked and we must be missing something.  I'd raather the 314 mit + 10% agro </div>

[Gungo]

<P>BTW 1 hate= 1 Dam but reinforcement raises you 1 HATE POSITION. meaning it could be thousands or hundreds or another 2 points of hate. Its raises your hate position which is why its the best agro spell in game considering it works on every hit hence the aoe combo.</P> <P>Guardians sphere is very useful with a guard who knows how to use it. If you refuse to use it. Then i don't know what to say. In lu 24 it will also mitgate the damage taken but unless you know when and how to use it. There will be no difference. </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:41 PM</span>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Epyx wrote:<BR>i've tanked the trio, and like a poster said, it's just a matter of running back your casters(your never lucky that it'll mem wipe and aggro a close melee, you always seem to have to run heh) and taunting once or twice. besides he mem wipes 3x or so b4 he's down, only so many times you can cast reinforcement.<BR><BR>and like said b4 1dps=1aggro if my taunts are burnt up, then i'll open up my big can o<BR><BR>it still doesn't help what i thought the original arguement was about, what makes the difference in a guard and zerker, in absorbing hits. And i still stand by that only ToS makes the difference<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thats great for mem wipes.. those are easy .. harder is an over zealous caster or brawler or scout getting agro .. that stuff isnt a simple taunt to recover most of the time.. thats when reinforcement is a raid saver .. with a 3 min recast its usuable once or twice a fight at least.<BR><BR>While its true 1 Damage  = 1 Agro who knows how much DPS its going to take to put you back up to the top of the hate list .. reinforcement jumps you a level each hit, regardless of how much damage you do.  DPS is great for adding to sustained agro, and even as a Guard when i have the power regen I am pumping my damage abilities aswell.. but reinforcement is fantastic for that oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] moment that shouldnt have happened.. but did.<BR><BR>TOS is great too.  As far as AA stuff goes I'm not wasting 20 points to get that 12 sec 100% parry .. i dont think its worth that.  If the only way you can complete an encouter is using that, then the strat needs to be rethinked and we must be missing something.  I'd raather the 314 mit + 10% agro <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>well the 12 sec parry buff is priceless.. and while you go down taht line you can get a dps buff.. which in effect buffs your hate... I see it as a waste to buff your hate when hate is jsut dmg that doesnt hurt the mob <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I woudl much rahter get the 19% dps buff and do mroe dmg while gaining more hate... TOS is not a life safer ie if u are about to die and healer is down on a riaid or some such thing it more then not will not last long enoguh.. but that parry buff will well until the mobs casts a magic aoe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>rienforcement is nice.. but I dont use it as often as I can due to I save it for when  or if I lose aggro.. as if I have hate the increase of threat positions doesnt help to much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>but I supose I understand that TOS is what guards get over zerkers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> as far as taking hits.. </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>BTW 1 hate= 1 Dam but reinforcement raises you 1 HATE POSITION. meaning it could be thousands or hundreds or another 2 points of hate. Its raises your hate position which is why its the best agro spell in game considering it works on every hit hence the aoe combo.</P> <P>Guardians sphere is very useful with a guard who knows how to use it. If you refuse to use it. Then i don't know what to say. In lu 24 it will also mitgate the damage taken but unless you know when and how to use it. There will be no difference. </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>06-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>guard sphere is nto useful at all.. basically cause in groups mobs are to easy and it doesnt matter really.. in raids... if someone takes aggro while its on or an aoe goes off you die... as the MT and that is def not so useful... there really isnt a skill to using it... I wishI woudl have been able to get the  app1 version of this skill so it woudl have less chance to kill me :") either way I still have the app 4 version now heh.. you havea bruiser? I dont understand why u say this is a raelly useful spell.. it really just isnt.. the dmg soak is ncie.. if it werent for taking the dnmg from others.

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>ToS is the only thing that makes Guards > Zerkers and its a minor thing at that.</P> <P>Stone sphere as it now stands Gungo is completley idiotic...even taking unmitigated damage from green mobs is insanely dangerous when using it...atm it serves almost no use unless ur an OT and you feel like sacrificing yourself so the healer doesnt die.</P>

[phlebas]

<P>Not everyone in the game is either in an xp group or raiding.  I have used Guardain sphere a number of times to save group wipes when exploring new areas, its a usefull skill if you have a decent healer, its hasnt killed me yet.  Its just best used in the right situation like all of our skills.</P> <P> </P> <P>lvl 60 guard</P> <P>lvl 67 dirge</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>ToS is the only thing that makes Guards > Zerkers and its a minor thing at that.</P> <P>Stone sphere as it now stands Gungo is completley idiotic...even taking unmitigated damage from green mobs is insanely dangerous when using it...atm it serves almost no use unless ur an OT and you feel like sacrificing yourself so the healer doesnt die.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually not every raid mob has an full aoe.  And i rarely ever see the MT group pull agro. If your guards do loose agro at all its usually someone in dps groups. In that for instance lets say the final mob in Lycuem, no true dam aoe. Only a fear aoe unless you prevent it. Guard sphere would prevent a few hits with its stone proc. Like i said before for guards who know how to use it. It can be a good spell and will further be safer to use after LU24. But if you don't know when or how to use it now. You never will.

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>phlebas wrote:<div></div> <p>Not everyone in the game is either in an xp group or raiding.  I have used Guardain sphere a number of times to save group wipes when exploring new areas, its a usefull skill if you have a decent healer, its hasnt killed me yet.  Its just best used in the right situation like all of our skills.</p> <p>lvl 60 guard</p> <p>lvl 67 dirge</p><hr></blockquote>Its also really useful solo .. For me though its still TOS and Reinforcement that set us apart.  We also get 1 more AE Taunt + Damage which it can be said helps mitigate the gap in AE damage between the classes.  Also I beleive our buff thats taunts when we get his is 50% and Zerkers is 25% and works on their offensive strikes I believe.  its also AE for them I think. (could be wrong havent played my zerker in a while).</div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>ToS is the only thing that makes Guards > Zerkers and its a minor thing at that.</P> <P>Stone sphere as it now stands Gungo is completley idiotic...even taking unmitigated damage from green mobs is insanely dangerous when using it...atm it serves almost no use unless ur an OT and you feel like sacrificing yourself so the healer doesnt die.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually not every raid mob has an full aoe.  And i rarely ever see the MT group pull agro. If your guards do loose agro at all its usually someone in dps groups. In that for instance lets say the final mob in Lycuem, no true dam aoe. Only a fear aoe unless you prevent it. Guard sphere would prevent a few hits with its stone proc. Like i said before for guards who know how to use it. It can be a good spell and will further be safer to use after LU24. But if you don't know when or how to use it now. You never will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>it matters little the risk is not worth it.. first off the people in mt group dont have ot pull aggro there are aoes and if not even aoes.. ther are barrages.. in additon stone skin only procs once off of it.. so not that great again... while there are times it coudl be used the benefits do not warrent the risk... if someone pulls aggro or something else happens if say someone in mt group gets to close and gets hit with barrage.. etc it really has ntohing to do with knowledge its nto that complex.. its reallly just nto a good ability</P> <P><BR> </P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>ToS is the only thing that makes Guards > Zerkers and its a minor thing at that.</P> <P>Stone sphere as it now stands Gungo is completley idiotic...even taking unmitigated damage from green mobs is insanely dangerous when using it...atm it serves almost no use unless ur an OT and you feel like sacrificing yourself so the healer doesnt die.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually not every raid mob has an full aoe.  And i rarely ever see the MT group pull agro. If your guards do loose agro at all its usually someone in dps groups. In that for instance lets say the final mob in Lycuem, no true dam aoe. Only a fear aoe unless you prevent it. Guard sphere would prevent a few hits with its stone proc. Like i said before for guards who know how to use it. It can be a good spell and will further be safer to use after LU24. But if you don't know when or how to use it now. You never will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dont understand what an AOE has to do with stone sphere.  And last mob in Lyceum DOES have a normal frontal AOE during one of its stances.  Stone skin proc is on a 25percent chance, granted if you can use it to protect YOURSELF and only YOURSELF during that time that is great...BUT if you read updates CORRECTLY, or spoke with a guardian on test right now, you will know that the stone skin proc WILL NO LONGER go off on damage you take, just on damage intercepted from others.  So the "uses" you THINK you know about it will be taken away then.</P> <P>I know my class inside and out, by my own deffinition and most likely anyone else on my server who knows me will agree.    </P>

[aislynn00]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>ToS is the only thing that makes Guards > Zerkers and its a minor thing at that.</P> <P>Stone sphere as it now stands Gungo is completley idiotic...even taking unmitigated damage from green mobs is insanely dangerous when using it...atm it serves almost no use unless ur an OT and you feel like sacrificing yourself so the healer doesnt die.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually not every raid mob has an full aoe.  And i rarely ever see the MT group pull agro. If your guards do loose agro at all its usually someone in dps groups. In that for instance lets say the final mob in Lycuem, no true dam aoe. Only a fear aoe unless you prevent it. Guard sphere would prevent a few hits with its stone proc. Like i said before for guards who know how to use it. It can be a good spell and will further be safer to use after LU24. But if you don't know when or how to use it now. You never will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dont understand what an AOE has to do with stone sphere.  And last mob in Lyceum DOES have a normal frontal AOE during one of its stances.  Stone skin proc is on a 25percent chance, granted if you can use it to protect YOURSELF and only YOURSELF during that time that is great...BUT if you read updates CORRECTLY, or spoke with a guardian on test right now, you will know that the stone skin proc WILL NO LONGER go off on damage you take, just on damage intercepted from others.  So the "uses" you THINK you know about it will be taken away then.</P> <P>I know my class inside and out, by my own deffinition and most likely anyone else on my server who knows me will agree.    </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Right now, on the live servers, Stone Sphere procs stone skins off any kind of damage you take.  Whether it will be changed in the LU today, I don't know, but I'll deal with that when it is actually on the live server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the notion that Stone Sphere is useless and/or too dangerous to be an advantage, that is simply nonsense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what your MT group usually looks like, but mine is comprised of a templar, a mystic (we don't have a defiler), a warden, a conjuror, a dirge, and a guardian.  In that group, only two people should be hit by AE's as long as aggro stays where it belongs: the guardian and the dirge.  Our dirge knows how to dodge a timeable AE, so he isn't hit at all during most epic battles.  When he stands a fair chance of being struck by an AE, I simply don't use SS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, what part of that is hard to grasp?  Only the guardian is hit, so SS doesn't transfer any unmitigated damage.  Bottom line: during most fights, whenever I take damage and the buff is up, I get a 25% chance of procing a stone skin effect, and that without any real risk to myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you haven't been using SS during raids, then you haven't been playing your class to its fullest potential.  As simple as that.</DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Right now, on the live servers, Stone Sphere procs stone skins off any kind of damage you take.  Whether it will be changed in the LU today, I don't know, but I'll deal with that when it is actually on the live server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the notion that Stone Sphere is useless and/or too dangerous to be an advantage, that is simply nonsense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what your MT group usually looks like, but mine is comprised of a templar, a mystic (we don't have a defiler), a warden, a conjuror, a dirge, and a guardian.  In that group, only two people should be hit by AE's as long as aggro stays where it belongs: the guardian and the dirge.  Our dirge knows how to dodge a timeable AE, so he isn't hit at all during most epic battles.  When he stands a fair chance of being struck by an AE, I simply don't use SS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, what part of that is hard to grasp?  Only the guardian is hit, so SS doesn't transfer any unmitigated damage.  Bottom line: during most fights, whenever I take damage and the buff is up, I get a 25% chance of procing a stone skin effect, and that without any real risk to myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you haven't been using SS during raids, then you haven't been playing your class to its fullest potential.  As simple as that.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im trying to be nice here, not trying to flame you, but I checked your guilds roster out and you dont have enough to form 2 grps for end game content.  I have tanked almost every encounter in the game, I know my class inside and out, and like any Guardian who has done so, I can assure you that Stone Sphere is not a useable tool in 99percent of raid encounters or situations.  If for some ungodly reason your Dirge misses a timer and get hits by an aoe, you take an unmitigated amount of damage, which is almost 100percent guarenteed to 1shot you to death.  When you are responsible for tanking a raid like this you cannot take a chance like that, even if its a small chance.  If you die most cases your raid wipes.</P> <P>When mitigation is taken into account on intercepts post LU24 this skill will begin to have value in grp sitations, it will never have a proper place while MTing raids tho, altho it will at least become situational.<BR></P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Right now, on the live servers, Stone Sphere procs stone skins off any kind of damage you take.  Whether it will be changed in the LU today, I don't know, but I'll deal with that when it is actually on the live server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the notion that Stone Sphere is useless and/or too dangerous to be an advantage, that is simply nonsense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what your MT group usually looks like, but mine is comprised of a templar, a mystic (we don't have a defiler), a warden, a conjuror, a dirge, and a guardian.  In that group, only two people should be hit by AE's as long as aggro stays where it belongs: the guardian and the dirge.  Our dirge knows how to dodge a timeable AE, so he isn't hit at all during most epic battles.  When he stands a fair chance of being struck by an AE, I simply don't use SS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, what part of that is hard to grasp?  Only the guardian is hit, so SS doesn't transfer any unmitigated damage.  Bottom line: during most fights, whenever I take damage and the buff is up, I get a 25% chance of procing a stone skin effect, and that without any real risk to myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you haven't been using SS during raids, then you haven't been playing your class to its fullest potential.  As simple as that.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im trying to be nice here, not trying to flame you, but I checked your guilds roster out and you dont have enough to form 2 grps for end game content.  I have tanked almost every encounter in the game, I know my class inside and out, and like any Guardian who has done so, I can assure you that Stone Sphere is not a useable tool in 99percent of raid encounters or situations.  If for some ungodly reason your Dirge misses a timer and get hits by an aoe, you take an unmitigated amount of damage, which is almost 100percent guarenteed to 1shot you to death.  When you are responsible for tanking a raid like this you cannot take a chance like that, even if its a small chance.  If you die most cases your raid wipes.</P> <P>When mitigation is taken into account on intercepts post LU24 this skill will begin to have value in grp sitations, it will never have a proper place while MTing raids tho, altho it will at least become situational.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yep I agree.. was my point  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and now they are making it so it doesnt proc off dmg I take it is even more worthless 

[aislynn00]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Right now, on the live servers, Stone Sphere procs stone skins off any kind of damage you take.  Whether it will be changed in the LU today, I don't know, but I'll deal with that when it is actually on the live server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the notion that Stone Sphere is useless and/or too dangerous to be an advantage, that is simply nonsense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what your MT group usually looks like, but mine is comprised of a templar, a mystic (we don't have a defiler), a warden, a conjuror, a dirge, and a guardian.  In that group, only two people should be hit by AE's as long as aggro stays where it belongs: the guardian and the dirge.  Our dirge knows how to dodge a timeable AE, so he isn't hit at all during most epic battles.  When he stands a fair chance of being struck by an AE, I simply don't use SS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, what part of that is hard to grasp?  Only the guardian is hit, so SS doesn't transfer any unmitigated damage.  Bottom line: during most fights, whenever I take damage and the buff is up, I get a 25% chance of procing a stone skin effect, and that without any real risk to myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you haven't been using SS during raids, then you haven't been playing your class to its fullest potential.  As simple as that.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im trying to be nice here, not trying to flame you, but I checked your guilds roster out and you dont have enough to form 2 grps for end game content.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Why, thank you for trying to be nice and not flame me.  Too bad you failed and came across as a rude [Removed for Content].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am MT and leader of a raid alliance consistently able to field three to four groups on our three weekly raids, enough for us to take on Laboratory of Lord Vyemm, Lyceum of Abhorrence, and Halls of the Seeing, among other things.  While we don't have Deathtoll access yet, that still covers most tier 7 epic(x4) content, not to mention all the content we have beaten in tier 5 and tier 6, more than enough for me to be able to speak about raid tanking in general.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I have tanked almost every encounter in the game, I know my class inside and out, and like any Guardian who has done so, I can assure you that Stone Sphere is not a useable tool in 99percent of raid encounters or situations.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <DIV>Considering I am able to use Stone Sphere on tier 7 raids while you apparently manage to kill yourself whenever you resort to it, I would seem to know my class better than you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and as for your claim as to the way Stone Sphere was ostensibly changed on the test server, yesterday proved that statement fallacious, too.  Stone Sphere currently works on the live servers the way it has worked since the stone skin proc was added many months ago: namely, one stone skin goes up with a 25% probability every time you take damage, no matter the source.</DIV><p>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:15 AM</span>

[Sirlutt]

its still an un neccessary risk to use it in most situations in a Raid.  I was using it last night in a single group though and it seemed to work ok.. its not a class defining skill though.. 99% of Raid guards dont even have it on their hot bars .. maybe they arent as leet as you and dont know their class that well .. but what ever the reason they seem to be able to tank the couple of zones you posted, and alot more without it.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>ToS is the only thing that makes Guards > Zerkers and its a minor thing at that.</P> <P>Stone sphere as it now stands Gungo is completley idiotic...even taking unmitigated damage from green mobs is insanely dangerous when using it...atm it serves almost no use unless ur an OT and you feel like sacrificing yourself so the healer doesnt die.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually not every raid mob has an full aoe.  And i rarely ever see the MT group pull agro. If your guards do loose agro at all its usually someone in dps groups. In that for instance lets say the final mob in Lycuem, no true dam aoe. Only a fear aoe unless you prevent it. Guard sphere would prevent a few hits with its stone proc. Like i said before for guards who know how to use it. It can be a good spell and will further be safer to use after LU24. But if you don't know when or how to use it now. You never will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dont understand what an AOE has to do with stone sphere.  And last mob in Lyceum DOES have a normal frontal AOE during one of its stances.  Stone skin proc is on a 25percent chance, granted if you can use it to protect YOURSELF and only YOURSELF during that time that is great...BUT if you read updates CORRECTLY, or spoke with a guardian on test right now, you will know that the stone skin proc WILL NO LONGER go off on damage you take, just on damage intercepted from others.  So the "uses" you THINK you know about it will be taken away then.</P> <P>I know my class inside and out, by my own deffinition and most likely anyone else on my server who knows me will agree.    </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It still proc's off damage you take after LU24. And frontal Aoe's if played well have no barring on the RAID. My point was stone sphere use to absorb attacks made on the guard. The only real pain in using Stone sphere is when the MT group would get hit by a FULL AoE. I gave an example of a raid mob that stone sphere is extemely helpful to use on. Liek i said prior it is a good spell if you know how to use it. </P> <P>EDIT: Just realised it still absorbs damage you take after LU24, you were wrong. Btw TanRaist The final mob in lyceum is the perfect example of a mob that stone sphere is usable. The frontal aoe should only hit the gaurd unless your agro is totally [Removed for Content]'d. No one else in that raid should get hit by an Aoe. And when he switches to his 25% stance with high dps. Using Stone sphere then helps prevent the MT from getting double atk killed. My point is there is raids where stone sphere is a valuable raid tool. We can agree to disagree if you like but i have used stone sphere successfully used on raids.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>06-15-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:19 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:20 AM</span>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Right now, on the live servers, Stone Sphere procs stone skins off any kind of damage you take.  Whether it will be changed in the LU today, I don't know, but I'll deal with that when it is actually on the live server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the notion that Stone Sphere is useless and/or too dangerous to be an advantage, that is simply nonsense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what your MT group usually looks like, but mine is comprised of a templar, a mystic (we don't have a defiler), a warden, a conjuror, a dirge, and a guardian.  In that group, only two people should be hit by AE's as long as aggro stays where it belongs: the guardian and the dirge.  Our dirge knows how to dodge a timeable AE, so he isn't hit at all during most epic battles.  When he stands a fair chance of being struck by an AE, I simply don't use SS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, what part of that is hard to grasp?  Only the guardian is hit, so SS doesn't transfer any unmitigated damage.  Bottom line: during most fights, whenever I take damage and the buff is up, I get a 25% chance of procing a stone skin effect, and that without any real risk to myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you haven't been using SS during raids, then you haven't been playing your class to its fullest potential.  As simple as that.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im trying to be nice here, not trying to flame you, but I checked your guilds roster out and you dont have enough to form 2 grps for end game content.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Why, thank you for trying to be nice and not flame me.  Too bad you failed and came across as a rude [Removed for Content].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am MT and leader of a raid alliance consistently able to field three to four groups on our three weekly raids, enough for us to take on Laboratory of Lord Vyemm, Lyceum of Abhorrence, and Halls of the Seeing, among other things.  While we don't have Deathtoll access yet, that still covers most tier 7 epic(x4) content, not to mention all the content we have beaten in tier 5 and tier 6, more than enough for me to be able to speak about raid tanking in general.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I have tanked almost every encounter in the game, I know my class inside and out, and like any Guardian who has done so, I can assure you that Stone Sphere is not a useable tool in 99percent of raid encounters or situations.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <DIV>Considering I am able to use Stone Sphere on tier 7 raids while you apparently manage to kill yourself whenever you resort to it, I would seem to know my class better than you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and as for your claim as to the way Stone Sphere was ostensibly changed on the test server, yesterday proved that statement fallacious, too.  Stone Sphere currently works on the live servers the way it has worked since the stone skin proc was added many months ago: namely, one stone skin goes up with a 25% probability every time you take damage, no matter the source.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <SPAN class=date_text>06-15-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>bah u are arrogant.. cause u ue a spell that has a good chance to kill you and you dont die form it makes you better? I still hate to tell you but when it is up there alot of things u dont control that could kill you... regardless I am glad that it self procs now... anyhow I dont manage to kill myself I am just not willling to take that risk for 1 dmg soak...

[DarkMasterMan]

    Ok, berserker here, just posting my 2 cents, as always, yes, you do have reinforcement, but we have insolent gibe, its approximately 1k hate, and an additional 400 50% of the time were hit(for the encounter!). For any aoe encounter HOLDING aggro, a berserker is better, now, regaining it, guardian of course with reinforcement + tremor. And the guardians hate defensive is better you said? Well, honestly, 20% berserker vs 50% guardian, ok, but the zerkers does slashing damage aswell so it actually gives more hate, with a lesser % to proc. About equal IMHO. Berserkers get a 3rd defensive temp over guardians, that gives us 30+ defense for 30 seconds, then, its down for 30 seconds, and back up. We also have a 30 second 3 counter attack buff which gives us very nice hate, considering it hits higher level raid mobs np. Guardians may give group hp, but berserkers give group dps/haste procs, aswell as str, now, agreed, the str is useless. So, the dps/haste allows the berserker to build more aggro on the raid mob. We also have open wounds, 52% haste, 100% primary weapons auto attack aoe. This allows us to absolutely rock aoe aggro, over a guardian. Using destruction, combined with open wounds its almost as if I were using rescue, because of the massive damage generated, I almost always pull aggro. Ok, I'm over it, 2 cents in. -Froglok Berserker <div></div>

[DarkMasterMan]

Oh, that, and I just thought I'd correct what someone posted above, that our hate stance thing procs on our attacks, and its aoe? Thats completely incorrect, it procs just as the guardians, except its a 20% chance when were hit, and it inflicts additional damage. This damage/hate is only added to the mob that initially hit us, not aoe. <div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>DarkMasterMan wrote:Oh, that, and I just thought I'd correct what someone posted above, that our hate stance thing procs on our attacks, and its aoe? Thats completely incorrect, it procs just as the guardians, except its a 20% chance when were hit, and it inflicts additional damage. This damage/hate is only added to the mob that initially hit us, not aoe. <div></div><hr></blockquote>yes my bad i was thinking of the Bruiser hate stance .. which procs on hits, but isnt AOE.  Thanks for clearing that up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[TanRaistlyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Right now, on the live servers, Stone Sphere procs stone skins off any kind of damage you take.  Whether it will be changed in the LU today, I don't know, but I'll deal with that when it is actually on the live server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the notion that Stone Sphere is useless and/or too dangerous to be an advantage, that is simply nonsense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what your MT group usually looks like, but mine is comprised of a templar, a mystic (we don't have a defiler), a warden, a conjuror, a dirge, and a guardian.  In that group, only two people should be hit by AE's as long as aggro stays where it belongs: the guardian and the dirge.  Our dirge knows how to dodge a timeable AE, so he isn't hit at all during most epic battles.  When he stands a fair chance of being struck by an AE, I simply don't use SS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, what part of that is hard to grasp?  Only the guardian is hit, so SS doesn't transfer any unmitigated damage.  Bottom line: during most fights, whenever I take damage and the buff is up, I get a 25% chance of procing a stone skin effect, and that without any real risk to myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you haven't been using SS during raids, then you haven't been playing your class to its fullest potential.  As simple as that.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im trying to be nice here, not trying to flame you, but I checked your guilds roster out and you dont have enough to form 2 grps for end game content.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Why, thank you for trying to be nice and not flame me.  Too bad you failed and came across as a rude [Removed for Content].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am MT and leader of a raid alliance consistently able to field three to four groups on our three weekly raids, enough for us to take on Laboratory of Lord Vyemm, Lyceum of Abhorrence, and Halls of the Seeing, among other things.  While we don't have Deathtoll access yet, that still covers most tier 7 epic(x4) content, not to mention all the content we have beaten in tier 5 and tier 6, more than enough for me to be able to speak about raid tanking in general.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I have tanked almost every encounter in the game, I know my class inside and out, and like any Guardian who has done so, I can assure you that Stone Sphere is not a useable tool in 99percent of raid encounters or situations.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <DIV>Considering I am able to use Stone Sphere on tier 7 raids while you apparently manage to kill yourself whenever you resort to it, I would seem to know my class better than you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and as for your claim as to the way Stone Sphere was ostensibly changed on the test server, yesterday proved that statement fallacious, too.  Stone Sphere currently works on the live servers the way it has worked since the stone skin proc was added many months ago: namely, one stone skin goes up with a 25% probability every time you take damage, no matter the source.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <SPAN class=date_text>06-15-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>bah u are arrogant.. cause u ue a spell that has a good chance to kill you and you dont die form it makes you better? I still hate to tell you but when it is up there alot of things u dont control that could kill you... regardless I am glad that it self procs now... anyhow I dont manage to kill myself I am just not willling to take that risk for 1 dmg soak...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Have you beaten Vyemn, Venekor, Talendor in your "alliance"??</P> <P>Im going to steal a line that a Disso member used when referring to you - </P> <P>Ixnay wrote :</P> <P>"It is very rare that a persons name actually reflects who they are, but you win the newby award in this thread hands down"<BR></P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>And Gungo, it was on Test at some point changed, if its back to normal perhaps they changed it back /shrug I havent checked there in last 2 weeks.  </P> <P>COULD Stone Sphere be used on a raid?  Yes it COULD.  </P> <P>99percent of raids in "end game" content make it useless, or at the very least the cons far outweigh the benefits.</P> <P>Personally my guild never had a problem beating Lyceums boss, and I never had to resort to using it, BUT it still can wipe the raid fairly easily if any number of things happen...MT grp member gets to close kicking a flower, someone lags forward a little and gets hit by the aoe, the mob repositions quickly and a dirge or pally or someone gets hit...it just takes one small error and one single unmitigated hit to 1-shot you and wipe the raid.  99percent of the time its not worth risking.  </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>And Gungo, it was on Test at some point changed, if its back to normal perhaps they changed it back /shrug I havent checked there in last 2 weeks.  </P> <P>COULD Stone Sphere be used on a raid?  Yes it COULD.  </P> <P>99percent of raids in "end game" content make it useless, or at the very least the cons far outweigh the benefits.</P> <P>Personally my guild never had a problem beating Lyceums boss, and I never had to resort to using it, BUT it still can wipe the raid fairly easily if any number of things happen...MT grp member gets to close kicking a flower, someone lags forward a little and gets hit by the aoe, the mob repositions quickly and a dirge or pally or someone gets hit...it just takes one small error and one single unmitigated hit to 1-shot you and wipe the raid.  99percent of the time its not worth risking.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>true, but we have never had a problem w the flowers. Either way if the MT group got hit by the frontal aoe you would prolly end up wiping anyway. Either or like i said it s quite usable in that raid or any raid w/o a full aoe especially after the change to make it mitigate. BTW the changes to interecept are awesome my opinion if all your fighters don't use this skill when your mt hitsred you ar emisisng out. AN dif your fighters in guild do not like using this skill because of to much dmage. Then use a lower tier verion and absorb 75% or 50% or 25% of the damage. This will also help prevent the MT from gettig killed if he gets hit w a spike. <BR>

[TanRaistlyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>true, but we have never had a problem w the flowers. Either way if the MT group got hit by the frontal aoe you would prolly end up wiping anyway. Either or like i said it s quite usable in that raid or any raid w/o a full aoe especially after the change to make it mitigate. BTW the changes to interecept are awesome my opinion if all your fighters don't use this skill when your mt hitsred you ar emisisng out. AN dif your fighters in guild do not like using this skill because of to much dmage. Then use a lower tier verion and absorb 75% or 50% or 25% of the damage. This will also help prevent the MT from gettig killed if he gets hit w a spike. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I meant just 1 person in the MT grp, but I agree the change to intercede lines is now so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] awesome I expect a nerf soon...I put 6 fighters in the fight against Tarinax on Sunday for fun, and it was so easy they just took the hits off of whomever was targeted after the wipe until one of the two MTs got agro back, and then helped take the hits from the tanks...went flawless and its the first time we beat him without even losing a single member of the raid.  (course new CC abilities helped too)

[Gungo]

<P>i dunno i dont think its overpowering. We still take the same 100% damage sometimes mroe depending how much mitgation the other fighters have. And it gives fighters what they always wanted something else to do on raids other then waste raid space. I would rather they leave the intercepts as it stands and increase the NPC's. Heck i am still waiting to see when the EQ2 devs will implement more barrage type NPC's. Thus requiring 2 tanks.</P> <P>With the new adventure pack and me switching to a new guild i havent had the time to test Sentry watch and sustain on my Guard. So hopefully they work just as well as the intercepts.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 PM</span>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Why switching to a new guild?</P> <P>And I hope they dont nerf intercede cuz its I think its awesome as well.</P> <P>And like every T7 mob needs more then 1 tank...HoS mobs 1shot tanks randomly thanks to debilitate, (no matter how fast your cures are, seems youll always die at least once) Tarinax memwipes every 15seconds, Cruor ports you and kills you, Goo dragon splits, First named in DT memwipes too(altho hes such a joke doesnt really count) Gore can port the tank into epic adds for quick death, Princes requires 3 tanks, etc. etc.</P> <P>I think SOE is really trying hard to make more then 1 fighter on a raid valuable and I personally think they doing a bang up job.  And if you wanna betray to a monk Gungo Ill tag you in my guild. :smileyvery-happy:</P>