Wow a lot of balance flames

[Snikey]

<DIV> <DIV>The sad thing is all this hot debating is for end game. Did people forget that LU-13 hurt guards so much at mid and low levels? Yes end game was broken, and will always need rebalancing with new content. But guardians soloability / small group ability was hit HUGH especially at lower levels levels. It isn't just a Tanking vs DPS issue as everyone makes it out to be. There does needs to be a defining difference between being a fighter and a scout, and that is tanking. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are other ways to balance it without changing the combat machanics the Devs state to be balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How about a self-only damage shield that blocks all healing spells coming from others? (soloability)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You could also make a single-group-only, self-only-buff offensive stance that scales to the number of group members. (small / duo grouping)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not looking to be uber or break the game. But it just never made sense that I should dread solo'ing / duo'ing more as a guardian than as another fighter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS is my aggro is not an excuse, taunts do not hurt a mob.</DIV></DIV>

[Gungo]

They are mostly started by estrnking too. Hey i agree with ya i think they should add a lil haste to your offensive stance. Soem people jsu tliek to go around yelling to nerf every other class.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<P>Well...</P> <P>I've been playing my (now 32) guardian in varsoon, and I've really no complaints about the class when tanking. I was easily keeping aggro on multiple yellow ^^^ encounters and taking pretty minimal damage doing it. Call of command and wall of flesh stack very effectively to get me to 80% mitigation, and coupled with the slow and dps reduction effects on wound and entrench I can take damage extremely well. Never had a problem holding aggro either, since goading defense seems kinda uber. </P> <P>I know my DPS is never gonna be T1, but I really see the degree to which I can tank being worth the loss compared to other tank classes. I'm sure this will change as I go up in level, but even with my experience as a 70 healer, guardians do make extremely good tanks, and simply suffer from being kinda useless when they're not tanking. It's a tough question to say whether you'd rather see their tanking ability nerfed and dps increased to match other fighters, or left as is.</P>

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>AWESOME!!!! CONSTRUCTIVE POSTS!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/agree</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dynamicman out...</DIV>

[Berek_IronAxe]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snikey wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>The sad thing is all this hot debating is for end game. Did people forget that LU-13 hurt guards so much at mid and low levels? Yes end game was broken, and will always need rebalancing with new content. But guardians soloability / small group ability was hit HUGH especially at lower levels levels. It isn't just a Tanking vs DPS issue as everyone makes it out to be. There does needs to be a defining difference between being a fighter and a scout, and that is tanking. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are other ways to balance it without changing the combat machanics the Devs state to be balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How about a self-only damage shield that blocks all healing spells coming from others? (soloability)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You could also make a single-group-only, self-only-buff offensive stance that scales to the number of group members. (small / duo grouping)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not looking to be uber or break the game. But it just never made sense that I should dread solo'ing / duo'ing more as a guardian than as another fighter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS is my aggro is not an excuse, taunts do not hurt a mob.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Guardians are not DPS -Never have and Never will.  We are Aggro Management.  I have run my guardain (Over a year) from before LU13 to present - Soloing is painful with a guardian and slow.  </P> <P>If you are looking for a DPS tank I would recommend a Zerker or Monk class- you will never like the DPS output on your Guardian.</P> <P>Now there is somethings you can do to increase your DPS and make Soloing a little easier.</P> <P>-STR gear and alot of it.  </P> <P>-Dual Wields or A BIG 2 hander w/Proc.</P> <P>-AA Line - Bind Wounds ( great heal and good combat buff),  STR AA line ( Critical Increases and Hate increase)</P> <P>-Adept3/Master all your CA's</P> <P>This is not a knock at you just letting you know- this thread is around all the time.  All the guardians that have been around for a while will say the same we are MT/Raid Tank maybe a MA - that is our role.  We really do not have a role out side of that.  I can give you some hope in the fact the STR line will increase your DPS and make soloing a little less painful. </P> <P>Good Luck and Good Hunting.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Kelkirra]

<P>I am truly happy to see someone that understands their class. The ideas that you have for possible changes and the direction to take the toon in to get the most DPS possible is incrediable. I wish that certian guardians held your opinion of their class as you here do. Kudos, I wish the best of luck to you all with your endevor with SoE.</P> <P>Naldir Veglarn</P> <P>69 Seasoned SK for the New Outriders of Mistmoore</P>

[Rah]

<DIV>I agree with Berriks reccomendations</DIV><p>Message Edited by Rahge on <span class=date_text>04-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:38 PM</span>

[Wabit]

<P>with AA's you can make your guard into whatever you want...  pure tank specs (yep we got em)</P> <P>t1 dps well nope, but i disagree with the DW/2H for dps...  if you truely want to max your guards dps sta 4/4/8/8 is the way to go...  buckler + nice 1H at 100% double attack...  then wis 4/4/8/8 for the ~20 dps increase and the ~320 mita...  i had alot of fun with this build, great for group/solo...  but i wanted the hate increase more for raid tanking (WTB a [Removed for Content] dirge)...  even if i'm not tanking my sword and board (right hand of high priest) is more dps than my 2H (vukar'ohk)...  i haven't DW in forever so no comment there...</P> <P>as for haste, i don't think thats the answer unless its like 50% or more...  with 23% the difference in dps really isn't that great (25-50 more dps)...  i'd like a 15% chance to proc some kind of damage added to the off stance...</P> <P>at lvl 70 i think the tank classes balanced themselves out at the highend game...  warriors raid tank better than brawlers (don't think Gaige will disagree there), and brawlers solo better than guards...  but a raid fabled guard can solo prety good, and a raid fabled brawler can raid tank pretty good (with right MT group)...  the balance issue lies more at the nonraiding guards lvl...  we are a very gear dependant class, the better our gear the better we are, brawlers aren't as gear dependant and have some get outta jail free cards (solo utility)...  while guard have group utility (thats currently broken) but for the most part even when it was working had little use or need...</P> <P>the hard part with trying to balance the guardian class is we take buffs so well...  what i mean is we need less help from other classes to be effective at the high end game, def and sta we have when the other tank classes dont, our warrior AA for mita which other classes dont have...  ToS can be usefull, and seems that alot are really liking the tsunami in agi line...</P> <P>at lvl 60 before AAs i think the raid tanking gap was very small between guards, zerkers, and palys, monks are for pulls, and we had our bruiser tank terror a couple times...  now the gap has become wider where guards and zerkers are close, paly has fallen off some ([Removed for Content] a horse AA???)...  but we have used guard, zerker, SK for MT in t7 (can't find a good paly), monk are for pulls, and our bruiser has tanked some of the lesser things (spires, x2 bonemire)...  so everyone CAN tank epics to some degree...  its just easier with me tanking...</P> <P>the balanced tanking is what unbalanced the guards in t6 cause we couldn't solo for poop...  now that the tanking isn't as balanced at top end guards are again balanced within the game...</P> <P>i was one of the more vocal about our class being gimped in t6, i even backed it up with parses in some of the posts...  now i'm pretty content with how the fighters are balanced, just a couple small things like look at our off stance, and fix our utility...</P>

[BigPig The Destroy]

:robottongue:

[Berek_IronAxe]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR> <P>with AA's you can make your guard into whatever you want...  pure tank specs (yep we got em)</P> <P>t1 dps well nope, but i disagree with the DW/2H for dps...  if you truely want to max your guards dps sta 4/4/8/8 is the way to go...  buckler + nice 1H at 100% double attack...  then wis 4/4/8/8 for the ~20 dps increase and the ~320 mita...  i had alot of fun with this build, great for group/solo...  but i wanted the hate increase more for raid tanking (WTB a [Removed for Content] dirge)...  even if i'm not tanking my sword and board (right hand of high priest) is more dps than my 2H (vukar'ohk)...  i haven't DW in forever so no comment there...</P> <P>as for haste, i don't think thats the answer unless its like 50% or more...  with 23% the difference in dps really isn't that great (25-50 more dps)...  i'd like a 15% chance to proc some kind of damage added to the off stance...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I will bow to your wisdom on this one.  I have not touched the STA line for the fact of the Buckler only restriction...my opinion no self respecting Guard would use a Buckler especially with the Tower of Stone line ( As much as I hate seeing good equipment destroyed by a CA).  </P> <P>I do not use DW either( I have a set I carry but in all honesty I dont even think they are attuned yet -lol)   Seems I swap between my 2hd Axe (just cause a 2 hd looks cool across the back of my Dwarf)  and my Xegonite Axe and Tower shield.</P> <P>The rest I agree with you 100%.  </P> <P>I am currently running down the STR ( Hate Increase on the 3rd teir) and looked at the WIS line as my second but if they make changes to the STA line it will be a no brainer.  </P>

[MrDiz]

Im still not a big fan of guardians as tanks unless its a raid. Even with a full and balanced group a guardian may be a great tank, but they are often a little slow on account of using all their power pretty fast.Guardians are still number 1 raid tank for serious raiding guilds, and basically id say that was the niche now. For most other situations id take a zerk or pally instead.