Turn the Mob! Please : )

[Karnacc]

<div><div> </div><div><strong>I posted on this on the Ranger boards but I also want to get the opinions of some Tanks on this:</strong></div><div><em>Why is it that every exp group I join I have to send the MT the same message : "Soandso, can you please turn the mobs' back to the group? dont wanna aggro adds trying to get position, and range, behind"? (im a 43 ranger)</em></div><div><em>It baffles me how most tanks dont seem to get it. Why risk the group when simply stepping through the mob and turning around can save a whole lot of trouble. I often have to explain how all my dps is range based and rear/flanking attacks.</em></div><div><div><em>Some tanks will say "OK..will do", and they do it for about 5 - 6 fights then it's back to just running up to the mob and flailing away. I just stand there and fling arrows from the front, getting parried all over the place. I do make all efforts to flank em when I cant get behind but that takes away all the ranged CAs when in a tight dungeon tunnel.</em></div><div><em>I've seen groups get adds alot and wipe when the assassin, or other ranger unknowingly steps back into aggro range of another mob or agrros a roamer. It usually takes me repeating the request in group, for the tank to understand. What is it? Do tanks not play scouts ever? Why is turning a mob not as simple matter of common sense?</em></div><div><em>Im lvl 43 and I have yet to group with a tank in CT or RE or wherever that positioned the mobs before I had to say something.</em></div><div><em>Do anybody else have experiences like this?</em></div><div> </div><div>This is not a selfish request of a ranger, it's good strategy for the benefit of whatever group you're in. I mean, why would you NOT want to maximize your dps output. Im sure assassins and all scouts will agree.</div><div>I know there are lots of tanks that turn the mobs but it has been my experience that most that i've grouped with, dont.  What are your thoughts on this??</div><div> </div></div></div>

[Tybr]

<div></div><p>Heck even I do this...</p><p> </p><p>Still, for us newbies a good reminder.</p>

[TunaBoo]

<div></div>Depends on the zone, sometimes its more effecient for lazy autofollow dps to run to the back. In general you should learn to play your own class, and play it well.. and play with others who know their class. Don't post stupid messages telling others how to play. If you are so good at tanking, make one.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:46 PM</span></p>

[Methose Darkbring]

<div></div><div></div><p>Hate to say tuna is right, some zones when speed pulling for grinds its better for the melees to ajust to us and us not them. I would think any good tank would know the rule of thumb to turn the mob but it doesnt apply to all grind zones...</p><p>Also on another note dps class's also need to be more awar of there suroundings to not agro other stuff, the extra dps doesn't help when your always pulling adds just to use a abilties. So guess it works both ways.....</p><p>Message Edited by Methose Darkbringer on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:31 PM</span></p>

[TunaBoo]

"Hate to say tuna is right"Why does everyone hate to say it, I usually am right.. I am just a jerk. ;p<div></div>

[Karnacc]

<div></div><p>??</p><p>Thats the dumbest thing i ever heard.</p><p>Grind group or not, why would'nt you want to get the mob dead the fastest? Isnt that the purpose of the grind?</p><p>We're talking about a 2 second move here. This doesnt involved a massive effort on anybodys part,  (scout or tank). It's about efficiency and keeping the risk level down.</p><p>It's not a lazy scout, it's a smart scout that wont risk aggroing adds. No good scout is gonna move into aggro range if he sees mobs near, so he will wait, or take what he can.</p><p>I mean come on..what effort does it take to get behind a mob? NONE. This isnt about that, it's about getting the most out of your group.</p><p>Ask your healer if they like healing the assassin while tryin to heal you cuz the assassin agrroed 3 adds unecessarily.</p><p> I dont even care if it's blue or green trash mobs. It's the tanks that do this in areas with yellow and orange ^+ mobs that i'm talking about.</p><p>This is not a knock on anybody, so please dont take offense thinking im tryin to tell you how to play your class. You play it how you want to play it.  This was meant  to simply get tanks opinions on why a lot of tanks do this.</p><p> </p>

[LoreLady]

This is my experiances as a ranger, is that ALOT of tanks out there still do not turn mobs around. Hell, the last tank I was with pushed mobs into corners with there backs facing the wall pulling adds while tanking, pulling and standing at the door expecting everyone to go through.. Lets just say, I dont think I will group with that tank agian.Anyways, the point I am trying to get at. Is that even though everyone thinks they are good, listen to your fellow ranger when we want our mobs turned <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Im not saying that every tank out there is bad, great etc everyone plays the game diffrently. I dont expect a tank to be perfect hold agro all the time always have a group of mobs perfectly aligned for me, giving me gold, all there inventory, there life, there souls. (where was I) - ah yes.Just do your best not to force other people into the unknown, after all we are people who are not strong enough to wear plate, people that wear dresses with pointy hats, people that spend there life with the animals and roll around in the dirt. You tanks out there are big blocks of people capable of taking a uzi to the chest. I/we crumple when the hobo pokes us with the stick.Note to self - dont post when you have been awake for 20 hours straight(No its not cause of EQ)

[Madrocsz]

<div>Im not a guardian, but I play a zerker and here's my response to the original post.</div><div> </div><div>Given, most tanks should flip mobs, for the dps and for obvious reasons. If it doesnt get done Its not always the tanks fault. When your tanking you have to consider many factors, the agro range of mobs, consistancy of pulling and most of all the people you group with and their personal skills and trends. A lot of people have zero attention to detail and by getting behind mobs or running around blindly agro tons of stuff, thats just part of the problem. For example, tank pulls mob to wall so dps can get position and they pay no attention agro other things, the tank then has to move to get agro of the new mobs because when hes backed  up or mob infront its a pain to get targets.</div><div> </div><div>Every grp is differant, until you learn how some people play and how certain grps and zones work for others players in grp keep in mind that it goes both ways. Sure, you want mobs a certain way for it to be easier for you but take into consideration that it may be where it makes the tanks job easier, and no offense, we keep the mobs off you so I would say death vs. a lil added dps is a fair trade.</div><div> </div><div>Madroc</div><div>68 Zerker of Nektulos</div>

[Belce]

<div></div><p>mob>group  is not as good as</p><p>tank>mob>group</p><p>Presenting the back of your target to your group is always the best thing.  Even melee classes that don't benefit for damage from having the back get a benefit from not having to suffer repost damage.  It also allows the group to see in all directions for possible adds.  Also the tank can see mobs that break agro with them easier and be better able to respond to those changes before they have any serious impact on the group. </p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Belce wrote:<div></div><p>mob>group  is not as good as</p><p>tank>mob>group</p><p>Presenting the back of your target to your group is always the best thing.  Even melee classes that don't benefit for damage from having the back get a benefit from not having to suffer repost damage.  It also allows the group to see in all directions for possible adds.  Also the tank can see mobs that break agro with them easier and be better able to respond to those changes before they have any serious impact on the group. </p><hr></blockquote><p>/agree, plus the healer can quickly tell if another group member is getting hit without having to pick it out of the battle-spam.</p><p>Some other tanks I know have a habit of just running up to the next enemy and start hacking away, expecting 5 other players to reposition, which many times leads to trouble.  If we had to be rooted/snared to do our job, I could almost see this as a reasonable compromise.  But we are fully mobile now, so only in rare cases can I see electing not to pass through and turn the mob/mobs.</p><p>The old eq1 folklore was that a mob's AC was always lower from the back, so the real damage-dealers were better off behind it.  I never parsed it for accuracy but it does make sense.</p><p> </p>

[Ardors]

<p> </p><blockquote><hr>Karnacc wrote:<div><div> </div><div><strong>I posted on this on the Ranger boards but I also want to get the opinions of some Tanks on this:</strong></div><div><em>Why is it that every exp group I join I have to send the MT the same message : "Soandso, can you please turn the mobs' back to the group? dont wanna aggro adds trying to get position, and range, behind"? (im a 43 ranger)</em></div><div><em>It baffles me how most tanks dont seem to get it. Why risk the group when simply stepping through the mob and turning around can save a whole lot of trouble. I often have to explain how all my dps is range based and rear/flanking attacks.</em></div><div><div><em>Some tanks will say "OK..will do", and they do it for about 5 - 6 fights then it's back to just running up to the mob and flailing away. I just stand there and fling arrows from the front, getting parried all over the place. I do make all efforts to flank em when I cant get behind but that takes away all the ranged CAs when in a tight dungeon tunnel.</em></div><div><em>I've seen groups get adds alot and wipe when the assassin, or other ranger unknowingly steps back into aggro range of another mob or agrros a roamer. It usually takes me repeating the request in group, for the tank to understand. What is it? Do tanks not play scouts ever? Why is turning a mob not as simple matter of common sense?</em></div><div><em>Im lvl 43 and I have yet to group with a tank in CT or RE or wherever that positioned the mobs before I had to say something.</em></div><div><em>Do anybody else have experiences like this?</em></div><div> </div><div>This is not a selfish request of a ranger, it's good strategy for the benefit of whatever group you're in. I mean, why would you NOT want to maximize your dps output. Im sure assassins and all scouts will agree.</div><div>I know there are lots of tanks that turn the mobs but it has been my experience that most that i've grouped with, dont.  What are your thoughts on this??</div><div> </div></div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>If your so close to adds that if only by moving behind the mob you will agro them, then your group is too close and will most likely add them anyways... You need to pull mobs back from their spawn points, not fight them beside an other static spawn sitting right there...but its all situational.</p><p>When i tank, I can turn the mob I agree, and I do it most the time anyways, (not just for the scouts, also for other melee to avoid riposte dam, and also when mobs have frontal AEs.) but I gana say, that its just as easy for you to go behind, caus to be frank, when the s-hit hit the fan, it get busy for a tank to control agro and adds, and I know for you, as a ranger, dont have much else to do than assist me and burn the mob down,,,so trow your tank a bone already and move arround a bit would ya..</p><p>And in a multi-mobs fight, I will most definetly turn all the mobs, once again not just for the scouts that are perma rooted and cant move :smileytongue: but because I dont want the mobs to hit me in the back.</p><p>Later</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[ReviloTX]

<div></div><p>In general, I think it's a good idea for the tank to turn the mobs.  I think there are situations where we don't though.  Let me give some examples.</p><p>I two box, and my healer is usually on autofollow.  When he's the only healer in the group and we are fighting yellows or above I need him to be standing still when I pull (so he can cast), so in this case I often I won't turn the mobs.  I do, however, try to leave enough room for the DPS to move in behind the mob without having to worry about aggroing adds.  This is a fairly unique situation though, as it involves the tank two boxing a healer.</p><p>Second situation where I often won't bother to turn the mobs is if I get stunned on the pull.  Most of the time, they dps moves in behind him mashing their high damage attacks from the start before the stun gets cured/wears off.  Obviously at this point I'm not going to bother moving the mob, since they are already behind it.</p><p>Third situation where I often won't turn the mobs is when I'm pulling large groups of mobs, like 4-5 mobs in a heroic group.  No matter what I do, 95% of the time the mobs end up surrounding me anyways.  In this situation I expect the DPS to move around behind the mobs as I target them.  I do try to target them in order though, so they aren't having to jump from one side and back to the other.</p>

[Gungo]

<div></div>depends to alot of mobs in KOS are brawlers so turning them around wont do any improvement in dps. But yes its still good practice to turn the mob.

[apotv]

<div>Yes its a good idea.. I turn the mobs on a regular basis, running forward, pegging w/ arrow <or taunt> backing up, then running forward again tends to have the mob turned around 98% of the time... when its a grp of mobs its a little differnt they tend to surround these days.</div><div> </div><div>But i will also say that if the ranger = just another bit of dps in the grp ie have wizzy/warlock/necro etc... if the mob isnt that serious and is going to fall down fast I can and will be lazy... peg taunt damage taunt.... look at tv, look back taunt damage, look at tv...</div><div> </div><div>If the ranger wants to grab an add and blame it on the tank then its just another case of not wanting to take responcibility for thier own actions... why didnt that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranger look before he leaped? who knows but if you have an ok or better tank the add will be pulled off you and now have a bunch more targets to shoot at, and hopefully you have a good healer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>this is an old argument... its the same one that the mezzers have vs. aoe damage... just because a mob is orange doesnt mean its hard for the grp... just means it will resist more,</div><div> </div><div>and a follow up question.... do you rangers really need to move back that far from the mob? or is that just for effect? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Darcblood]

<div></div><p>I always turn the Mobs, it is always better if your DPS doesn't have to reposition them selves to attack, that is precious time that they could be killing. </p><p>So I agree with the fact that mobs need to be turned, I don't agree with coming to a board and telling an entire Group how to play their class.  It should be assumed that if someone is playing a class over 40 that they probably know how to play it.  That doesn't always count on the SE servers, but is the general rule of thumb.  My philosophy is if a group isnt' working out then find a different group. </p><p>Since I Dual box the healer and the tank I am usually pretty responsive when people make a suggestion, and I expect the same from others to make sure that the group works better as a whole.</p><p>I also always take the pull to here approach.  Then I park my healer and tell everyone in the group to stay within group heal range just in case.  It behooves me to turn the mob then so that everyone stays in range and people don't get caught in the directional AOE's as well.</p><p>my 2cp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[LoreLady]

I personally only grab adds when its on the healer and the tank isent noticing it easier with a wounded ranger in defensive than a cleric getting interupted etc. Other than that there is no reason to grab adds.I had fun teaching 3 tanks how to turn mobs last weekend (NOT), please, I am BEGGING all of the tank community teach ALL your friends how to turn mobs and to always do it. I am personally finding some of the ignorance I see in tanks abit rediculus. And I realize that every class has its morons, but its mistakes that can be corrected with alittle help and practice.

[Nemesi]

then the designers need to spend a lot more time developing the models for mob's backsides since that is all a majority of players need to see.i think its a poor implementation of game combat that more or less makes it that desirable to have an entire group or raid minus one swinging away at the mob's booty.<div></div>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>The first time I got stunned and smashed down for huge damage while the mob hit my back becasue I was 'running through the encounter' I decided all the dps could move behind. I usually try and pull the group or mob through the group so they have easy access to their back but in the end, if I'm the tank, my back is dangerous territory for mobs to be and I will not give it to them to make your life easier.</p><p>Your the one that needs to be behind so get behind.</p>

[KiseroHT]

<div>yes this is a good practice i must agree - on the xp grind i usually do this. when i first started positioning mobs i would get our swash and ranger to make a gap and i would pull the mob(s) through that gap and park the mob(s) backside right in front of them. that works for starters but once u start to do this it becomes very second nature and your group tactics can evolve further. of course like many have stated this is situational.</div>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>I usually pull through or to the side of the group. I like to the sides as some mobs like to take swipes at group mates as they run past and the casters whine when they lose half their health. These are the ones I have to proximity pull since they are social and next to others. If I get to group taunt them or do damage on it if it's a single then I just run back past my group however I am pointed.</p><p>I always do this with my back to the group and my front to the mobs. I will ask the group to move up when I start getting beat up backing up to the group.</p>

[Darcblood]

<div>I am usually faster than the mobs.  So I have the group park next my healer in a 1/2 circle.  When I run back I stand in the middle of the circle and wait until it gets to me, then I charge it and hit my melee auto attack to spin my self.  Works 98% of the time, sometimes pathing just won't allow it.  It USUALLY works on groups of mobs too.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Fippe]

<span></span>As a derect answer to OP:s topic... Don't start fighting untill the mob is possitioned if you have a tank kind enough to care about your possitional attacks.On a second note (after spending hour after hour in HoF trying to get BotB updates), if a mob got AE it's not a good idea to turn it since you will be forcinghealers to get in AE range to be close enough for heals.<div></div>

[Kikena]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:"Hate to say tuna is right"Why does everyone hate to say it, I usually am right.. I am just a jerk. ;p<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>HAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!</p><p>Amen to that bro. When reading your posts on tanking/guardian technique you are definitely on point. (pun action)</p>

[Berek_IronAxe]

<div></div>Almost always turn the mob away from group - there are some circumstances were it is not feasible but not alot of them.  This also allows adds to you instead of the Squishy Members of the Party.  The Aggro Generator of Inflaming Defense takes over and you do not have to switch your attention off of your target.  I have several alts that are not tanks, amazed at the number do not turn.

[Tybr]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:<div></div>Depends on the zone, sometimes its more effecient for lazy autofollow dps to run to the back. In general you should learn to play your own class, and play it well.. and play with others who know their class. Don't post stupid messages telling others how to play. If you are so good at tanking, make one.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:46 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Seem I have alot learn...sooo... much to know...

[aislynn00]

<div></div><p>First of all, it is not the responsibility of the tank to position the mob with its back to the group.  It is the responsibility of the scout to position himself according to the mob and tank. </p><p>Why?  Because it is <em>far</em> easier--and safer, for that matter--for a scout to move around the mob than it is for the tank to position a group of mobs while being stunned or knocked back/down or having to move to catch adds with Plant, and so on.  The tank should pull the mobs so far back that the scouts have room to do their job without getting adds.  Turning the mob, though, is an entirely different thing.</p><p>I personally am a nice guy and like to help everyone do their job, so I turn the mob whenever it isn't risky or inconvenient, but that is a bonus you get when hunting with me, not something which should be expected as the default.  Your job isn't just plucking arrows; your job also involves reacting to your environment, same as everyone else, tanks included.  That involves adjusting your position whenever required.</p><p>Of course, if you want to increase the likelihood of your tank helping out with positioning mobs conveniently for you damage dealers, then take these bits of advice:</p><p>   o Do not root, ever, while the tank is standing. </p><p>A rooted mob aggroes whoever is highest on the hate list <em>while within melee range</em>.  So, if the tank tries to reposition a rooted mob, he immediately loses aggro if anyone remains within melee range.  That usually means a scout.</p><p>   o Do not stun, ever, while the tank is pulling.</p><p>Few things are as annoying as one mob seemingly stuck 20 feet away from the rest of the encounter you just pulled.  You do realize that our group taunts have a max range?  If I have to tank mobs 20 - 30 feet apart, I have to stand in the middle of the encounter in order to catch everything with my group taunt, meaning no positioning.</p><p>   o If you are a priest and see a debuff on your tank, in particular a trauma debuff, then <em>cure it</em>.  Not after 5 or 10 seconds or after you refresh any non-critical heals; cure it <em>now</em>.</p><p>That is undoubtedly my greatest pet peeve when hunting with other priests than my wife.  Don't you guys understand what roots, stuns, stifles, mez'es, and fear effects do to a tank?  An immobilized tank can't move mobs away from potential adds roaming in the vicinity.  A stifled tank can't taunt.  A mez'ed tank loses aggro immediately.</p><p>And don't get me started on debuffs.  On raids in particular, but also in tougher single-group zones, such as Halls of Fate, mobs have access to devastating debuffs.  -3000 mitigation, anyone?  -1000 to a handful of resists already targeted by the mob?  500 power drain per tick (keep in mind, a power-drained tank can't taunt)?  Cure those damned debuffs whenever you see them.  It will make your life, and that of the tank, <em>so</em> much easier.</p>

[SpiralDown]

Tanks are meant to be in front of the mob and in harms way and position the mob for the grp to do what needs to be done and to worry about adds.  In fact, tanks are really only utility, very vital but still utility none the less, for the dps to do what is suppose to be done... kill the mob.  The game focuses around killing the mob, if the game focused around the tank we'd all need more than one in a grp, but we don't, we  just need one, need 3-4 dps however.   DPS out numbers the tank, so why shouldn't one person take 5 steps to help out the majority of the grp. Any arguement against turning the mob is just ego.  Always hearing, "Dont tell me how to play MY class."  Well, the tank, healers and dps are all looking at different things so each could give perspective to the others.  When I was still a squirt in my lower lvl days, a tank told me, "dont use your high dmg attack first, you're always taking aggro." (He did put it nicer) I listened and became better after it.So any tanks left with the notion that scouts are just being lazy, lets see how they do when dps doesn't help them out, just open up with nukes and fire away, pushing your dmg as high as it can go without bothering to use deaggro.  Or dont try to off tank when the healer gets hate.  Dont bother with crowd control...  Not simply turning the mob is like saying we arent all in the same grp, and arent worried about helping each other out.<div></div>

[Gumber]

<div></div><p>Best XP and most fun for me is pulling 8 blue mobs in Sactum and let all go crazy with AEs, the Ranger chooses one with his back to him. :smileytongue:</p><p>Ress the warlock if nessecary, repeat. :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[LoreLady]

I am sorry, but it is the tanks job to turn the mob. Not the melee's job to get behind the mob and then start bashing, using ranged backstabs etc (as as a ranger they do exist). If the mob is turned, and a roamer comes behind the tank the tank has initial agro. And can easilly throw his/her AE taunt on or in many cases if its a single mob the tank wont have to worrya bout it as long as no one casts an AE. If a mob comes from behind, the tank can immediatly see it. Tanks have a much higher mitigation, avoidance than anyone else (obviesly), and what seems fine for you guys tears us apart.

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>SpiralDown wrote: Any arguement against turning the mob is just ego.<font color="#ffff00">Rubbish.</font>  Always hearing, "Dont tell me how to play MY class."<font color="#ffff00">That one is, but there are others.</font> Not simply turning the mob is like saying we arent all in the same grp, and arent worried about helping each other out.<font color="#ffff00">No it isn't.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Despite being a guardian I don't do much tanking.When I do I do try to turn the mob, but it isn't my top priority.Top is helping the group out by making sure I am the one with aggro.Second is watching for possible adds, and avoiding them which can restrict where I pull to.Then for positioning I might help the DPSers by turning the mob,  or help the healers by putting my back to a wall, so that scout mobs don't get to backstab me. It depends on the situation.I have a swashie alt so I do understand both sides of this.</span><div></div>

[Darcblood]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div></div><p>First of all, it is not the responsibility of the tank to position the mob with its back to the group.  It is the responsibility of the scout to position himself according to the mob and tank. </p><p>Why?  Because it is <em>far</em> easier--and safer, for that matter--for a scout to move around the mob than it is for the tank to position a group of mobs while being stunned or knocked back/down or having to move to catch adds with Plant, and so on.  The tank should pull the mobs so far back that the scouts have room to do their job without getting adds.  Turning the mob, though, is an entirely different thing.</p><p>I personally am a nice guy and like to help everyone do their job, so I turn the mob whenever it isn't risky or inconvenient, but that is a bonus you get when hunting with me, not something which should be expected as the default.  Your job isn't just plucking arrows; your job also involves reacting to your environment, same as everyone else, tanks included.  That involves adjusting your position whenever required.</p><p>Of course, if you want to increase the likelihood of your tank helping out with positioning mobs conveniently for you damage dealers, then take these bits of advice:</p><p>   o Do not root, ever, while the tank is standing. </p><p>A rooted mob aggroes whoever is highest on the hate list <em>while within melee range</em>.  So, if the tank tries to reposition a rooted mob, he immediately loses aggro if anyone remains within melee range.  That usually means a scout.</p><p>   o Do not stun, ever, while the tank is pulling.</p><p>Few things are as annoying as one mob seemingly stuck 20 feet away from the rest of the encounter you just pulled.  You do realize that our group taunts have a max range?  If I have to tank mobs 20 - 30 feet apart, I have to stand in the middle of the encounter in order to catch everything with my group taunt, meaning no positioning.</p><p>   o If you are a priest and see a debuff on your tank, in particular a trauma debuff, then <em>cure it</em>.  Not after 5 or 10 seconds or after you refresh any non-critical heals; cure it <em>now</em>.</p><p>That is undoubtedly my greatest pet peeve when hunting with other priests than my wife.  Don't you guys understand what roots, stuns, stifles, mez'es, and fear effects do to a tank?  An immobilized tank can't move mobs away from potential adds roaming in the vicinity.  A stifled tank can't taunt.  A mez'ed tank loses aggro immediately.</p><p>And don't get me started on debuffs.  On raids in particular, but also in tougher single-group zones, such as Halls of Fate, mobs have access to devastating debuffs.  -3000 mitigation, anyone?  -1000 to a handful of resists already targeted by the mob?  500 power drain per tick (keep in mind, a power-drained tank can't taunt)?  Cure those damned debuffs whenever you see them.  It will make your life, and that of the tank, <em>so</em> much easier.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Ok bubba, I agree with alot of your requests here.  But how can you in good conscience demand all of these and not have the simple courtesey to want to turn the mob.  Especially when it's for the greater good of the group.  Every Tank in my guild knows that you always turn the mob, we don't pull it and say go position your selves...  We get everyone in position (whether its a single group or a raid it applies to most things) and the tank pulls it and turns it.  That's basic tanking 101.  I may not be the best or the highest but I have never and I mean never had people complain about my tanking.  There is more than just the tank in the group and if every one works together effeciently mobs drop faster, which means more time dedicated to kills instead of regenning power.  I went home last night (yes I'm posting at work SHHHH) and parsed this with my friends, I pulled about 30 mobs 15 turning and 15 not.  The ones I didn't turn on average took about 10 seconds longer to kill.  Doesn't sound like much but when the fights are going 20 seconds when turned and 30 when not.  That's 50% more time because of not turning.  When I can take literally .5sec and turn it my self.  Seems like a waste to me.  It is the responsibility of the tank to learn how to do this.  There are always going to be times when you will not be able to turn the mobs, pathing now a days really sucks.  But it is your responsibility as a tank to learn quickly whether turning is feasible where you are fightin or not. </p><p>This game is about having fun.  I personally have more fun when I win fights, I have more fun when everyone in my group is having fun.  As a tank I am the point man for what ever group I am in and take that seriously. </p>

[aislynn00]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>darcd78 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div></div><p>I personally am a nice guy and like to help everyone do their job, so <font color="#ff9900">I turn the mob whenever it isn't risky or inconvenient</font>, but that is a bonus you get when hunting with me, not something which should be expected as the default. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Ok bubba, I agree with alot of your requests here.  But how can you in good conscience demand all of these and not have the simple courtesey to want to turn the mob. </p><hr></blockquote><p>As I pretty clearly stated, I do turn the mob, so claiming that I'm unwilling to do so seems odd to me.</p><p>What I also said is, it isn't my <em>responsibility</em>.  You and I are going above and beyond the call of duty, as it were, when we do the <em>scouts'</em> job by automatically presenting the mob's back to them.  But then, I don't personally mind doing a bit of extra work to get better performance out of the group, especially when scouts thank me for it at the end of a hunt.</p>

[Darcblood]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>darcd78 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div></div><p>I personally am a nice guy and like to help everyone do their job, so <font color="#ff9900">I turn the mob whenever it isn't risky or inconvenient</font>, <font color="#66ff00">but that is a bonus you get when hunting with me, not something which should be expected as the default. </font></p><hr></blockquote><p>Ok bubba, I agree with alot of your requests here.  But how can you in good conscience demand all of these and not have the simple courtesey to <font color="#ffff00">want</font> to turn the mob. </p><hr></blockquote><p>As I pretty clearly stated, I do turn the mob, so claiming that I'm unwilling to do so seems odd to me.</p><p>What I also said is, it isn't my <em>responsibility</em>.  You and I are going above and beyond the call of duty, as it were, when we do the <em>scouts'</em> job by automatically presenting the mob's back to them.  But then, I don't personally mind doing a bit of extra work to get better performance out of the group, especially when scouts thank me for it at the end of a hunt.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Because of the sentence in green.  The key word in my sentence is in yellow "<font color="#ffff00">Want</font>".  You state that it's a bonus and that it's not your responsibility, so that just appeared as double talk to me.  Kind of an I do it but I don't want to so don't expect it.  If that's not how you meant it sorry that was unclear to me. </p><p>Our opinions differ and that's cool, I fully think that it is my responsibility as well as a lot of other tanks that I know.  It's always nice to be appreciated and thanked for doing that stuff but I don't need it to make me feel like it was worth it.  I look at the amount of xp that I got and know it was.  Maybe I am more humble(not the word I'm looking for but close enough) of a tank in that I feel like I need to be doing the things that you think are optional to you, but I think that it is my job to present the mobs butt so they can kick it.  I also play a healer, and assassin and a couple of mage types.  I know what it is like from many of the other classes and I have a good idea of how to optimize them, so I put it to use as often as humanly possible.</p><p>Don't take offense, I am not saying that you aren't a good tank or anything.  I just feel that the responsibility of the tank includes this stuff. </p>

[JeffBship]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Karnacc wrote:<div><div> </div><div><strong>I posted on this on the Ranger boards but I also want to get the opinions of some Tanks on this:</strong></div><div><em>Why is it that every exp group I join I have to send the MT the same message : "Soandso, can you please turn the mobs' back to the group? dont wanna aggro adds trying to get position, and range, behind"? (im a 43 ranger)</em></div><div><em>It baffles me how most tanks dont seem to get it. Why risk the group when simply stepping through the mob and turning around can save a whole lot of trouble. I often have to explain how all my dps is range based and rear/flanking attacks.</em></div><div><div><em>Some tanks will say "OK..will do", and they do it for about 5 - 6 fights then it's back to just running up to the mob and flailing away. I just stand there and fling arrows from the front, getting parried all over the place. I do make all efforts to flank em when I cant get behind but that takes away all the ranged CAs when in a tight dungeon tunnel.</em></div><div><em>I've seen groups get adds alot and wipe when the assassin, or other ranger unknowingly steps back into aggro range of another mob or agrros a roamer. It usually takes me repeating the request in group, for the tank to understand. What is it? Do tanks not play scouts ever? Why is turning a mob not as simple matter of common sense?</em></div><div><em>Im lvl 43 and I have yet to group with a tank in CT or RE or wherever that positioned the mobs before I had to say something.</em></div><div><em>Do anybody else have experiences like this?</em></div><div> </div><div>This is not a selfish request of a ranger, it's good strategy for the benefit of whatever group you're in. I mean, why would you NOT want to maximize your dps output. Im sure assassins and all scouts will agree.</div><div>I know there are lots of tanks that turn the mobs but it has been my experience that most that i've grouped with, dont.  What are your thoughts on this??</div><div> </div></div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I used to turn the mobs pretty much every pull, but I quit doing that for the most part around LU13 or so.</p><p>Several reasons.  First, they changed the AI for mobs and made them smarter.  The mobs now like to spread out in a circle around me...this alone makes it near impossible.  Even if you get one in the right spot, as soon as it's down you have the same old problem.  Second, they added tons of stuns.  So when the tank spends the first 5-10 seconds stunned, by the time I could move the rest of the group has already chosen their positions and if I try to move it just makes them have to move all over again.  Third...almost invariably if you turn them you spend a few seconds with your back to them, and if that is the point where you get stunned then bad things happen.  Fourth, the new AI seems to be that any caster mobs like to stop at max cast range and cast a spell or two and then move into melee range. So you can't really turn them until they come in and again by this time the scouts have already positioned themselves.</p><p>What seems to work well, assuming there is room, is to pull and let the mobs come to me invariably in a circle around me.  I pick the healer or mage type to kill first and the scouts move behind it.  When it drops, I go to the next one so the scouts just strafe/turn (making a semi circle) and they're behind the next one.  I do try to always go in the same direction (clockwise) so they get to anticipate things.</p><p> </p><p>Someone might say that not turning the mobs means you have a bad tank.  I would say that someone aint a great player themselves if they put things in black and white like that.  Only good solution is to communicate with each other and find a method that works best for all.  Every group is different.  I think that's what makes most pickup groups totally bite...the fact that most people have expectations about how things should go and don't adapt to the individual group.  (and that is not a dig on rangers...I have one too and I've seen my share of terrible tanks too.  Idiocy is an equal opportunity affliction <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  )</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by JeffBship on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:51 PM</span></p>

[Sir_Halbarad]

If you pull them out of the path of wanderers / range of static spawns, all is well.The responsibility to watch for adds is on every member of the group, not just the tank.Fighting in tight quarters (dungeon / lots of wanderers) means you have to watch for aggro. Your Tank can only pull it *that* far.Of course, turning it is always the best option, especially when playing with pet classes.But remember there often just isn't enough room for it, especially with the wild mob positioning.<div></div>

[apotv]

<div></div><div>"Tanks are meant to be in front of the mob and in harms way and position the mob for the grp to do what needs to be done and to worry about adds"</div><div> </div><div>what if worrying about adds means not turning the mob because you will get adds?  Or are the complaining about the lack or unturned mobs only thinking about single target encounters in wide open fields with no aggro around?  If the dps isnt thinking about aggro either they will move behind the mob, and draw aggro.  sometime I let the scout <ranger> die simply because they did that.  I never, i should say rarely ever have a problem with any other dps class.  Its just desire for massive damage, not working with the grp to turn the area into a safer enviroment for the entire group.  yes the target will die a touch slower if sometimes you have to fight close in, but it will die and that is in fact the goal.</div><div> </div><div>"why shouldn't one person take 5 steps to help out the majority of the grp."</div><div> </div><div>because sometimes that 5 steps puts you in a path for something more ugly.</div><div> </div><div>"Any arguement against turning the mob is just ego."</div><div> </div><div>I have a big ego, and can think of several places where I will not walk the extra distance to turn the mob because of adds, or a pathing occurance which just makes turning a mob stupid.  I dont know how many people realize this but on a lot of mobs the further you walk away to reposition a mob the more likely you will lose aggro, and you wont get it back until you get closer.</div><div> </div><div>"Dont tell me how to play MY class."</div><div> </div><div>A friend of mine recently rolled a tank, he's a high lvl wizzy 65 i think atm.  And he discovered that playing as a tank he was able to become better DPS because he now knows what the heck it is that tanks do, and why 99% of the whining from other classes are unneeded or just misunderstandings.  That doesnt mean that there arnt tanks out there that suck.  I have a healer and a wizzy and am constantly baffled by what some tanks say.  "taunts dont do damage" is my favorite. </div><div> </div><div>Not simply turning the mob is like saying we arent all in the same grp, and arent worried about helping each other out.</div><div> </div><div>Yes and no.  If its a 1 target encounter there is almost no reason why they should not be turned.  If its a grp of 3 75% of the time I'll get them turned on initial pull, the other 25% they will surround me, you can try to reposition but sometimes you will lose aggro trying to do that, so.... unless its a good grp i dont bother.  then there is the grp of 10.... screw that... I'll do my best, I trust my healer to keep me standing, dps do what your good at.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>edited to add that I agree turning mobs is the best idea.  I practice it regularly and agree w/ the OP but there are times where I just dont because honestly some mobs no matter how though they want to look are just sheep in wolves clothing and will not only be dead, but very dead very quick</div><p>Message Edited by apotvin on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:20 PM</span></p>

[Crim001]

<div></div><p>Well to the OP.....</p><p>When I try to turn the mob, often if there is a scout in the group, they tend to see me turn and decide to "follow" me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>Then there is the thing I dread the most in groups.....the group that follows you on the pull. So every now and then I won't turn the mob so they get hit by an AE to get the message if they ignore me.</p><p>Overall, most of the scouts I've played with have apparently gotten used to this and run around on their own...I blame you for my laziness!!</p>

[Hoopak]

<div></div><div></div>Most of the time when i can, and it is situational, I will pull the mob through the group so i know where they are and this in turn positions the group to the back and brings the mob back to where you just cleared to minimize the wanderers. Again this is situational and depends on your group. I have turned a mob only to realize that the scout has already started positioning himself around the mob and now we are both in front of the mob again. All depends on your group. in a pick up group i dont know the scouts (users) ability and people come and go fairly quikly sometimes so it will never be consistent.  Just remember that comunication is key but not everyone can communicate in a world wide game. Sometimes you just will wipe and you have to pick yourself up and shake it off.<p>Message Edited by Hoopak on <span class="date_text">03-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:29 AM</span></p>

[Rockpitt]

<div></div>I do whatever the group wants me to do. In the past when I announce the pull, the assasin/ranger types go running past the mob before he gets to me. They don't give me a chance to turn it for the group. I ask "do you want me to turn it" and the typical response is "doesn't matter to me." It's happened so many times I don't usually turn it anymore unless a) someone asks or b) I know the mob has an aoe. No complaints so far. Another thing that got me lazy about turning was the trigger happy bow users shooting too fast (like on the pull). I'm poppin' off taunts so fast to keep the aggro sometimes that I don't think about turning. It's interesting I don't usually run into this scenerio with casters. Must be the slow cast times. This topic has me thinkin' though. I think I'll go back to doing my job and automatically turning for the majority of the group. I'll let the assasin/rangers do they're thing until they figure out there are five other people with them.

[Sacrificial Lamb]

<div></div><div>Edit Double post ............</div><p>Message Edited by Sacrificial Lamb on <span class="date_text">03-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:49 PM</span></p>

[a6eaq]

<div></div><p>Personally I turn the mob whenever possible.  I feel it is part of the tanks job to do so if it needs to be done.  Afterall, if we have agro and the mobs back is up against a wall, there are many DPS class attacks that will not be usable. </p><p>Sure it is tough in close quarters like dungeons to always properly postion the mobs, but we should do our best to keep the mob faced away from the rest of the group/raid.  Life is much easier for everyone when we are able to keep the mob turned away from our groupmates. </p><p>Group mobs tend to fan out around the tank and we must ensure that we force the mob to reposition itself itself if need be. </p><p>This is a game afterall and we all play it a little differently.  To each his own.  If you don't like playing with a tank that doesn't turn your mobs then quit the group and find a group that works with your play style.  Problem solved.</p>

[Sacrificial Lamb]

<div></div><div>I have been reading over this thread and decided to jump up on the soap box myself.</div><div>What follows will be the recommended method of MT pulling and mob “turning”. Since this forum is viewed by people with little to no knowledge of guardian-ship to those who ... um ... know it all, I am in hopes that this bit of learned information will aid those of the former category.</div><div> </div><div>Dynamics of a mob pull….</div><div> </div><div>• Plant Group in a designated area to pull to.• MT runs out and attacks targeted mob with ranged attack at max distance possible.      o Reactives, Wards, and Regens will prove to be a great asset when applied to MT just prior to the pull cycle.• MT runs backwards to killing zone, using both taunts on the way back to maximize agro.      o Note: its important to keep facing mob and running backwards to avoid being stunned during your flight .. er … retreat.      o Running backwards can take a learning curve in 3rd person but the benefits will more than make up for the effort.• MT steps into the groups killing area and waits for the mob to reach melee distance and start their attack.• MT then steps THROUGH the mob(s) while hitting the melee auto attack button (this turns MT automatically) and thereby positions MT on the opposite site of the mob(s).      o Note: waiting the split second for the mobs to start their attack has a tendency to keep them in place.      o Stepping though the middle of a multi-mob group will greatly increase the odds of forcing  them gather in a cluster.• MT & group begin their typical attack routine.• Rinse and Repeat</div><div> </div><div>Disclaimer: There may be certain situations such as: bad pathing, epic mob AoE, etc… where “turning” may prove less effective, but with practice this will be minimized. That being said, it has been my experience that this method of mob management (turing the mob) by the MT is by far the most effective way to optimize group efficiency and agro. It is such a core component of the Tanking experience, it must be shared with all those who are not aware of of this method. Heck I even use this method with my necro both in solo and group (where my pet is MTing). In regards to those who are aware of it and choose not to employ its use, it is your character and you should play it however you want.  I definately don't share your opinion however.</div><div> </div><div>This, by no means, excludes the rest of the group from needing to perform their duties efficiently. I don't know of any MT alive who can keep agro if the rest of the group is running to and fro, warlocks chain nuking, assasins slicing with the big one-two combo right at the start of the battle without agro reducing, dogs and cats sleeping together ... MASS HISTERIA!</div><div> </div><div>Well you get the idea.</div><div> </div><div>Lastly I want thank Karnacc for the post. It is clear by the thread you have generated that the issue could use some attention. It is my belief, that what may be "common knowledge" to some is an unheard of revelation to others. Most often I find this among those who have soloed for many levels. Group dynamics can be a rude awakening. </div><div> </div><div>Sac</div><div> </div><div> "The oxen are slow ... But the earth is patient"  Lyrikos Tunare Server</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[ffour16]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:<div></div><p>The old eq1 folklore was that a mob's AC was always lower from the back, so the real damage-dealers were better off behind it.  I never parsed it for accuracy but it does make sense.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>This is true.  Unless they've changed it (and my experiences would disagree with it if they claim to have changed it) all classes and mobs except brawlers and brawler-based mobs take a penalty to mitigation, dodge, parry, riposte, etc. when the attacks are attempted from behind.</p><p>Just because a tank doesn't do this doesn't mean he sucks, he might just be uninformed or not understand how truly great a penalty it is to the group to not turn mobs:</p><p>- Get good enough at 'herding' mobs and you can position them all to your front = minimize the dmg you take (healer saves mana and group can recover faster and handle adds better, more xp) and maximize the ripostes you do to them (you generate more agro)- Place the group of mobs in a row with their backs turned to the group and melee classes don't have to take so much time adjusting when you change targets = mobs die faster, healer saves mana, faster recovery and can handle more adds, more xp- You're the tank and mostly responsible for any adds in a fight.  You decide on the battlefield, and by turning the mobs you can better control where your group is fighting.  Fewer adds during a fight = more healer mana, faster recovery time, more xp- Mobs not facing the melee types can't parry or riposte, and cone AoE won't hit the group = mobs die faster and do less damage to the group, more healer mana, less recovery time, can handle adds better, more xp</p><p>Basically there are very rare occasions when you won't want to turn a mob, and by not doing so in most cases you're placing your group at a disadvantage.</p>

[MastikFantastik]

I personally  agree with most f what is said here about the tank having the easiest time to turn the mobs for max effect with minimal risk compared to shifting a group/raid around for the mob. However there are times (usually raid) that tunring the mob isn't an option really.  Some of the mobs aoes have such a range that the healers need to be at max range healing the guard to avoid being hit. If the guardian turns the mob the aoes will hit the healers. And if the healers have to run around to re position for that the guardian will be most liekely dead before they can.Now I realize this is a rare enough case and usually limited to raids.  But there are times that you can't just up and turn the mob(s) because of ranges, aoes, adds etc...However for the most part it is easier for the tank to step through the mob, and turn it. (multiple mobs pose slight problems to this but not bad)<div></div>

[Darcblood]

<div>I completely agree that there will be situations that people are not going to be able to turn the mobs.  But IMHO tanks should make it a practice to do so unless it's not possible. </div><div> </div><div>There have been lots of good posts here for both reasons to do it and not to do it.  I really like sacrificial Lamb's post with a small guide to "turning".</div><div> </div><div>I hope that some people were helped by this.</div><div> </div><div>**there were no guardian's hurt in the making of this post**</div><div> </div><div>PIE ROCKS!!!!</div>

[EasternKing]

<div></div><p>Well the ONLY time ill turn a mob is if its a single mob on its own ......</p><p>Any other time i expect the group to repostion itself around me where i finally end up with the mobs ...why you ask ?</p><p>ill tell you why plate tanks have a 90degree or so arc on there front where they get full benefit from avoidence and block parry / riposte..... so if i got a group of ^^^ heroics or several groups of heroics its my job to get them all positioned on my front NOT to try turning them so lazy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] scouts dont have to move.</p><p>Fighting for the majority part in T7 is with high level heroics / epics in places where ts very easy to get adds a tanks job is to make sure he is controlling aggro  on the group / watch for potential adds ....make sure that mobs arent eating group members ...just like its easier for a scout / dps /tank to hit a mob from a flank / rear position its exactely the same for the mobs.</p><p> in a wide open zone where u pulling single mobs back to the group yes its easy and lazy on the tanks part to not turn a mob ...anyplace esle Hof / PoA / SoS / Lab etc etc it isnt,  the tanks job is to make sure hes not getting hit form the flank or rear ....several times in a fight a mob will move that means the tanks has to move ...expecting the tank to be constantly trying to get it with its back to the dps as well is just plain and simple stupidity... a fight is a fluid situation not a static one unless its a singel mob / named / epic then yes by all means expect  to have to adjust YOUR position and make sure your aware where the adds are so you dont pull them when your trying to get a flank / rear position.</p>

[OriginalIrongno]

<div>ROFL wow this topic got to 3 pages to long....</div><div> </div><div>Just turn the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mob its called basic tanking school from EQ1, its simple to do and for goodness sakes makes sense, if an add add's to the group from behind you (if you tank first person learn to position a camera, if you wanna be good.) then you can first of all raise the chance for it to aggro you first potentially causing hold the line to proc raising your hate, raise the death rate of the mob currently engaged..</div><div> </div><div>Hell I even go so far as to appoint an MA in my groups when ever possible, its someone you have to trust to make good judgement. He engages rest follow suit and you chain pull like a possed banchi.</div><div> </div><div>Then again I did have 3 years prior experence in MMORPG's having played EQ1 and been a chain puller/tank there... </div><div> </div><div>This shouldn't even be a topic if you are a good tank you should know this skill and work at it, if you are lazy and don't wanna work at it don't push the stupidity of your idea up here.</div><div> </div><div>Tuna go play a necro, you have NFC what you are talken about or you play first person, which is great and realistic!! lets watch some arms flail <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</div><div> </div><div>Nothing but a sorry bunch of whiners here some days, I didn't even bother reading the 2nd page because this topic became way to long already and my now unnecessary post has been added to this dribble.  You wanna level and plow faster, take the few seconds to position a mob.  Saves time, saves DPS and saves you in the long run.  END OF STORY and they lived happily ever after...</div>

[Drulak]

<div></div><p>This topic is only 3 pages long because everyone is agreeing with OP in Practice , but some are disputing the Theory.</p><p>I always turn mobs , unless doing so will draw me more aggro ,  In that situation i will try and pull mob through group.</p><p>What our fellow adventureres have to realise , is if them running behind the mob will get aggro , THEN us running behind the mob will get aggro too.</p><p>Its all about environment -  Turn mobs -  YES Absolutely , <font color="#ff0000">if you can!!!!</font></p><p>PS you will probably find that most of the tanks you group with that do turn , played EQ1 and ones that don't didn't.  I really do not think its the tanks job to turn , but a nicety which has carried over from EQ1 , so we all do it automatically.</p>

[Darcblood]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Drulak wrote:<div></div><p>Its all about environment -  Turn mobs -  YES Absolutely , <font color="#ff0000">if you can!!!!</font></p><hr></blockquote>Amen...  Preach on...

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>OriginalIrongnome wrote:<div> (if you tank first person learn to position a camera, if you wanna be good.)</div><hr></blockquote>I tank and do almost everything first person, because I get fewer crashes that way.When the bug with the ATI graphics driver is fixed then I'll go back to using third person as I did on my old system (which used to run out of memory and crash).</span><div></div>

[JudyJudy]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Drulak wrote:<p>Its all about environment -  Turn mobs -  YES Absolutely , <font color="#ff0000">if you can!!!!</font></p><hr></blockquote><p><em>Absolutely!  The surrounding environment can make a huge impact on pathing and placement of the mobs while tanking:  stairs, spatial availabilities, mob AI and add probability are just a few to consider.  Any good tank and/or tanks will consider these aspects and many others, when in xp groups or raid encounters</em></p><p> </p><p></p><hr>Drulak wrote:<blockquote><p>I really do not think its the tanks job to turn...</p><hr></blockquote><p><em>Now this I disagree with, and I'll tell you why - It's our primary concern as a tank to consider the safety and success of the group and/or raid.  It's just as much our job to turn the mob in situations that deem it necessary as it is not to turn it based on the factors I've previously listed.</em></p><p><em>Like it or not, It is our job.  It's up to YOU to make the decision when to do it and when not too, then explain to the group and/or raid why you're positioning the mobs</em> <em>the way you are.</em></p><p><em>This is key for success and will reflect well on your tanking ability.</em></p>

[Kikena]

<div>Great discussion. Nice summation by JudyJudy and a few others on this thread.</div><div> </div><div>Experience will dictate the actions of the point tank, whatever the sub-class.</div><div> </div><div>Communication is the overall guide-line.</div><div> </div><div>Even with the best of tanks, some days or encounters will seem worse than others. We're all (mostly) human IRL. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Working together in grp or raid with great communications skills will result in a positive experience, even if that means finding a replacement tank or swapping tanks.</div><div> </div><div>Communicate with respect.</div><div> </div><div>Some may feel that when on an XP run, "I don't have time to teach a tank how to do it's job".</div><div> </div><div>Taking the few moments in the beginning of a run or event to iron out a few details might make the difference over the course of the event, whatever that is.</div>

[infernus006]

When I tank I always try to turn the mobs as best I can and I would say that 99% of the time I have no trouble doing it.  There are cases where I might get stunned in mid pull or because of possibly getting adds or falling off a ledge I won't be able to do it as well but those are relatively rare cases.  I do it because I know that people like it and they want me to do it so I do it without being asked.  And I get lots of compliments on my tanking abilities and one of the biggest ones I get is because I always turn the mobs.  It really makes a difference in the group's performance and their perception of you as a tank so if you want a good rep then just do it.<div></div>

[Ares The Dark]

<div>Ok, I have to admit that I have not read all the posts here and I am just jumping in to say my part.</div><div> </div><div>I am a 65 Guardian and I turn mobs! I have been turning mobs for my group since level 20. I turn mobs for my group so well, it is 2nd nature now. I turn mobs and I am not really aware that I do it. People like for me to tank because I turn mobs and I do it well.</div><div> </div><div>Fact is, turning mobs for you group is so very simple and easy to do, I sometimes wonder why more tanks do not do it. Why does a tank pull and expect 5 people to repostions thier toons to get behind mobs? If the tank would only stop to think that turning mobs is so easy, and it shows others that you know what you are doing.</div><div> </div><div>How does a tank turn mobs? Let's say you group is all standing really close together and the mobs you need to kill are in front of you. The tank should stand close to his group, and pull mobs with bow or taunt. Let the mobs come close to the group. Once the mobs get really close to the group, the tank takes 3 steps forward, while the rest of the group stays put. How hard is that? You have to hold down the move forward key for 3 secs!</div><div> </div><div>I turn mobs so well, that some people I group with add me to thier friends list just becuase I turn mobs for them! So if all you tanks out there refuse to learn a very simple move, and expect 5 peopel in your group to move behind mobs becuase you are too lazy to learn a 3 sec move, I feel for you. Because you are missing one of the finer aspects of the game as a tank. You are missing one the things that sets you apart from the people who play tanks and thing that all they need to do is taunt mobs.</div><div> </div><div>I learned how to turn mobs from a 16 year old kid! I was playing a templar at the time and I saw this kid turning mobs. It was a great experince! Espically when doing dungoen crawls. Our group would mobs down the halls togther, the tank would pull the mobs right on top of us, take three steps forward, and BAM, the mobs back was to the group and the group never ONCE had to run around behind the mob. So when I rolled my Guardian I was using this move very early on.</div><div> </div><div>If you want a tank that turns mobs, ALL THE TIME, please look me up if you play on Oasis.</div><div> </div><div>Ruhl - 65 Guardian</div><div>Eventinne - 60 Templar</div><div>Teil - 22 Dirge</div>

[Hoaboseim]

<div></div><div><p>When i tank, I can turn the mob I agree, and I do it most the time anyways, (not just for the scouts, also for other melee to avoid riposte dam, and also when mobs have frontal AEs.) but I gana say, <strong>that its just as easy for you to go behind</strong>, caus to be frank, when the s-hit hit the fan, it get busy for a tank to control agro and adds, and I know for you, as a ranger, dont have much else to do than assist me and burn the mob down,,,so trow your tank a bone already and move arround a bit would ya..</p><p>---------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>Ok.. that's not right.  You have to .. stay with me here.. be at range to use ranged CA's/autoattack.  Just like, for example, you have to be in melee range to melee.  A ranger just can't step through the mob, they have to get past a minimum distance to ust their bows.  So it's generally easier for a RANGEr to back up into an area they have just cleared than to charge past the tank, almost never a safe thing to do -- into a room they are clearing. </p><p>It's going to be hard to make the argument that turning the mob is less desirable than having scout types charge past the tank...  Sure, there's always going to be exceptions but lets not argue the exceptions as though they were the rule.  Smart tanks normally turn the mobs to the benefit of all and bad tanks probably do worse things than not turn the mobs.  OP has a good tip for those tanks that care to listen to it.</p><p> </p><p>... as for the sarcasm well that's just gravy.</p><p>**Edit... After reading all the posts it just occurred to me.. Doesn't this discussion seem like it should be on the WOW boards?  I'm very scared now. </p></div><p>Message Edited by Hoaboseim on <span class="date_text">03-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:30 AM</span></p>

[DarkMirrax]

<blockquote><hr>Karnacc wrote:<div><div> </div><div><strong>I posted on this on the Ranger boards but I also want to get the opinions of some Tanks on this:</strong></div><div><em>Why is it that every exp group I join I have to send the MT the same message : "Soandso, can you please turn the mobs' back to the group? dont wanna aggro adds trying to get position, and range, behind"? (im a 43 ranger)</em></div><div><em>It baffles me how most tanks dont seem to get it. Why risk the group when simply stepping through the mob and turning around can save a whole lot of trouble. I often have to explain how all my dps is range based and rear/flanking attacks.</em></div><div><div><em>Some tanks will say "OK..will do", and they do it for about 5 - 6 fights then it's back to just running up to the mob and flailing away. I just stand there and fling arrows from the front, getting parried all over the place. I do make all efforts to flank em when I cant get behind but that takes away all the ranged CAs when in a tight dungeon tunnel.</em></div><div><em>I've seen groups get adds alot and wipe when the assassin, or other ranger unknowingly steps back into aggro range of another mob or agrros a roamer. It usually takes me repeating the request in group, for the tank to understand. What is it? Do tanks not play scouts ever? Why is turning a mob not as simple matter of common sense?</em></div><div><em>Im lvl 43 and I have yet to group with a tank in CT or RE or wherever that positioned the mobs before I had to say something.</em></div><div><em>Do anybody else have experiences like this?</em></div><div> </div><div>This is not a selfish request of a ranger, it's good strategy for the benefit of whatever group you're in. I mean, why would you NOT want to maximize your dps output. Im sure assassins and all scouts will agree.</div><div>I know there are lots of tanks that turn the mobs but it has been my experience that most that i've grouped with, dont.  What are your thoughts on this??</div><div> </div></div></div><hr></blockquote>Well stop grouping with crappy plate tanks and let a real tank show u how its done :smileyvery-happy: