What is going thru designers heads? -sta AA line

[Elusi]

<div></div><div><p> </p><blockquote><strong></strong><hr>Noah wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><div> </div><div><strong>Sta path :</strong></div><div><p><strong>Buckler Reversal : if casters/ennemy blocks, parries,ripostes/deflects, inflict 1680-2817dmg on target (if buckler, duration 30sec, recast 30sec) -- CA -- 8 ranks (prolly buged, 2817 seems a lot <img width="16" border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" height="16">)</strong></p><p><strong>Gladiator's Finesse : increase double attack by 7,7% (if buckler) -- passive spell -- 8 ranks</strong></p><p><strong>Gladiator's Revenge : dodge/rispote 1,2% of incoming attacks (if buckler)  -- passive spell -- 8 ranks</strong></p><p><strong>Perseverence : combat ars cost 8% less power, those 8% are returned to the caster's health -- passive spell -- 1 rank</strong></p><p></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><strong></strong><hr><p> </p><p>We're in your world now, and what a screwball world it is. First you give us skills that snare, root, and slow us. Now this. What book are you writing that requires a big bad tank to wield the same shields that the people that are healing them use? You give us tower of stone, which is nice but requires a tower shield. Then you make the decent ones kite shields. Then you give us this. It's become apparent that you dislike us, stop toying around and land the deathblow already.</p></div></div></blockquote></div>

[MyrdalGroenhart]

i think equiped buckler means, any shield, will have to test this out though.Hannu, 59 guardian<div></div>

[Elusi]

<div>From past experience I'm not getting my hopes up.</div>

[Moontayle]

I sent in both Bug Reports and Feedback Forms on this. I even snagged Gallenites ear for a few moments and emailed him the specifics. I *hope* that it's just an oversight but I honestly do not know and I'm loath to try and grab his ear again until things settle down.<div></div>

[aislynn00]

<div></div><p>I tested this while on the Beta server: "buckler" means exactly that--you can't substitute a kite or tower shield.</p>

[MrMartin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div></div><p>I tested this while on the Beta server: "buckler" means exactly that--you can't substitute a kite or tower shield.</p><hr></blockquote>What Guardian in their right mind would ever use a buckler!?I dont feel like loosing 10% avoidance just to get some benefit from an AA.

[aislynn00]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MrMartin wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div></div><p>I tested this while on the Beta server: "buckler" means exactly that--you can't substitute a kite or tower shield.</p><hr></blockquote>What Guardian in their right mind would ever use a buckler!?I dont feel like loosing 10% avoidance just to get some benefit from an AA.<hr></blockquote><p>You lose more than 10% avoidance, I believe, by going from kite/tower shield to buckler, but I'm not able to log in right now and ascertain the actual figures.</p><p>Be that as it may, you are able to regain some of the lost avoidance by maxing out the fourth ability in the Stamina tree: it affords a flat percentage chance of parrying any attack made from the flanks or rear and an equivalent chance of riposting any attack executed from the front. As I recall, you have something like a 1% chance per rank, meaning you could boost the ability to a grand 8% parry/riposte from any angle.</p><p>While I don't appreciate the notion of forcing thematically inappropriate bucklers onto guardians, the situational advantages afforded by the stamina tree are significant enough to make me seriously consider whether to make the stamina tree my second priority after finishing the wisdom tree.  Then again, the only tree I have already given up on entirely is the intelligence one.</p>

[NoNameChosen]

<div>From towershield to buckler you will lose a LOT more then 10%.My first 'real' tier 6 tower shield was the 'Soul-forged shield of paineel' (?) (legendary towershielf from PP:return). Later on, I got the Areneae tower shield from Terrorantula, with like 50 more shieldfactor. This might have been a bit more, but definatly not more then 100. Say for 75 shield factor, I lost 2%! avoidance.</div><div>Going from 1000 shield factor to 300, will make you loose more like 15-20% avoidance.</div><div> </div><div>They better change this AA-ability to towershield, since that is warrior-only, so are the AA's. I bet it was a Priest-playin-developer who made these AA's and dislikes Warriors because we can wear towershields :smileyindifferent:</div>

[vatorman99]

<blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2">aislynn00 wrote:<p>I tested this while on the Beta server: "buckler" means exactly that--you can't substitute a kite or tower shield.</p><hr></blockquote><div align="left">MrMartin wrote:What Guardian in their right mind would ever use a buckler!?</div>I dont feel like loosing 10% avoidance just to get some benefit from an AA.<hr width="100%" size="2">Very true.  I can't see this being very useful if you have to wield a buckler just to reap the benefits of the STA line.  It should be changed to either any shield, buckler and up, or, just tower shield.  Plus, a guardian wearing a buckler looks pretty wimpy <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[Wilin]

<blockquote><hr>NoNameChosen wrote:<div>They better change this AA-ability to towershield, since that is warrior-only,</div><hr></blockquote>Thus far in KoS, tower shields are not warrior only. The ones that I've seen including crafted ones can be used by pally/sk as well.

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><div>I agree.  Forcing us to wield a buckler to use an ability is counterintuitive and decreases out defensive capabilities.</div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><div>I agree.  Forcing us to wield a buckler to use an ability is counterintuitive and decreases out defensive capabilities.</div><hr></blockquote><p>However it is in keeping with SOEs desire to pin a major negative on many, if not all, of our positive abilities.</p><p>Still no Dev or In-game confirmation that a buclker is required?</p>

[Elusi]

<div>What is the point of an upgrade if you have to downgrade to use it?</div><div> </div><div>Congratulations, you have earned thru time and effort a nice new skill! Now please remove the other stuff you earned thru equal time and effort....</div>

[MrMartin]

<div></div><p>Uhhm, just thought of another stupid thing about using bucklers.</p><p>T6 bucklers all have WIS and INT as stats while tower/kite has STR, STA and AGI.</p><p>That means the STA skillpoints you just got in that AA tree just makes you even out the loss from the towershield. (Almost)</p><p>It's like taxes. When income-taxes go down, gas-taxes go way up. They can never give us anything that just benefits us,they always has to bring us down somewhere else...</p><p>Sick and tired of this. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Meinen]

<div></div>I am really hoping that this isn't true...i have no idea what they were thinking.  I will invest into the sta, but no further than the 1st one.  If my guild hadn't just made me main tank, i would seriously think about lvling my monk.  this is getting ridiculous.   

[sick720]

<div>haha! i am soo glad i left eq2 and went back to eqlive! the eq2 team seem to me to be the biggest bunch of morons to ever work on an mmo. what are they thinking?</div>

[NoNameChosen]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wilin wrote:Thus far in KoS, tower shields are not warrior only. The ones that I've seen including crafted ones can be used by pally/sk as well.<hr></blockquote><p>Sorry, ALL! tower shields are warrior only... That is a towershield. Kiteshields however are Crusader/Warrior. The stats/shieldfactor are mostly similar, there is still a difference between them. Even though the examples below are tier5 and 6, it is and stays the same, tower shields are warrior only. The icons however can be the same for tower/kite shields, same as the graphics, but they are still different.Few examples of towershields:<img src="http://dbms.ogamingmedia.com/eq2items/17212/image/tower.jpg"><img src="http://dbms.ogamingmedia.com/eq2items/14943/image/araneaetower.jpg"><img src="http://dbms.ogamingmedia.com/eq2items/16738/image/Soul-ForgedShieldofPaineel.jpg">Now a few kite shields :<img src="http://dbms.ogamingmedia.com/eq2items/10275/image/runickiteshield.jpg"><img src="http://dbms.ogamingmedia.com/eq2items/11303/image/IridescentKiteShield.JPG"><img src="http://dbms.ogamingmedia.com/eq2items/9774/image/KiteShieldoftheKing.jpg"></p>

[Elusi]

<div>Maybe t1-t6 towers are still apropriately tower, but we're all here talking about t7 aren't we?</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/3165/lost4ap.jpg"></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><p>if it looks like a towershield, its a towershield...</p><p>and there was already a crusader only tower shield from DoF (truth instance)...  and the KoS ones that say crusader/warrior should work with ToS...  thats really the true test...</p>

[mochl]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div><p>if it looks like a towershield, its a towershield...</p><p>and there was already a crusader only tower shield from DoF (truth instance)...  and the KoS ones that say crusader/warrior should work with ToS...  thats really the true test...</p><hr></blockquote>Sunderguard works with ToS, as soon as im able to figure out how to manage the hatchlings in Den of the Devourer (can tank the named, just not the Devourer +15 ^^^ adds) ill fill you in on Grizzfazzles Shield.</span></div>

[WarShe]

<div></div><div></div><p>I have to agree a guardian should never downgrade to use a Buckler.</p><p>I used tower shields up until the made kite shields better, I am not even considering this AA line at all because of the Required change.</p><p>Other changes I personaly dont care for are Having to change weapons types to use either a Spear or a Hammer.  What???</p><p>Why am I being punished for being a Guardian that uses a Kite Shield and 1 Handed slash weapons? Whats wrong with my Axe or my Sword that I must change them to make use of the new AA system?</p><p>Also one of the two lines of AA which I wouldnt have to change equipment for is intelegence...</p><p>I am a Guardian what in the world would I do with 4 levels of added intel from AAs just to get to some thing good?</p><p>I understand extra intel may add a very small ammount of damage to Critical hits, but it would not be enough to go with over the extra Strength which I havent tested but am pretty sure would do much more damage over a small period of time in combat.</p><p>So only logical immediatly usefull AA Branch that I will see a difference with right away seems to be the Strength line. </p><p>These are my thoughts and opinions, feel free to disagree.</p><p> </p><p>PS love the Bind Wound, wish I could add more points to it but will live, and Nice use of the skill system from Champions of Norrath...</p><p>Message Edited by WarSheol on <span class="date_text">02-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:10 AM</span></p>

[Wilin]

<blockquote><hr>Elusian wrote:<div>Maybe t1-t6 towers are still apropriately tower, but we're all here talking about t7 aren't we?</div><hr></blockquote>Thanks for the screenshot confirmation of my statement. I was too lazy to go dig one up. As I said, new tower shields can be used by crusaders. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Uumuuanu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>NoNameChosen wrote:<div> </div><div>They better change this AA-ability to towershield, since that is warrior-only, so are the AA's. I bet it was a Priest-playin-developer who made these AA's and dislikes Warriors because we can wear towershields :smileyindifferent:</div><hr></blockquote>Asides from the people who have already pointed out that the T7 can be used beyond the warrior lines,  it SHOULD  be ANY shield that the guardian wears.   Several of the T6 kite shields have great stats (Aegis of Defense comes to mind) and are popular.   That being said, yes, the T7 quested tower is a guardians friend but it should be an option for any shield IMO.

[Elusi]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Uumuuanu wrote:</p><p>Asides from the people who have already pointed out that the T7 can be used beyond the warrior lines,  it SHOULD  be ANY shield that the guardian wears.   Several of the T6 kite shields have great stats (Aegis of Defense comes to mind) and are popular.   That being said, yes, the T7 quested tower is a guardians friend but it should be an option for any shield IMO.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>The kite shields that were popular in t6 were only so because they were easily attainable, and there were no comparable tower shields that were easily attainable. This was an itemization flaw by SOE. I agree that this should be usable with any shield.</p>

[Uumuuanu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Elusian wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Uumuuanu wrote:</p><p>Asides from the people who have already pointed out that the T7 can be used beyond the warrior lines,  it SHOULD  be ANY shield that the guardian wears.   Several of the T6 kite shields have great stats (Aegis of Defense comes to mind) and are popular.   That being said, yes, the T7 quested tower is a guardians friend but it should be an option for any shield IMO.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>The kite shields that were popular in t6 were only so because they were easily attainable, and there were no comparable tower shields that were easily attainable. This was an itemization flaw by SOE. I agree that this should be usable with any shield.</p><hr></blockquote><p>So true,  off the top of my head I can't think of any nice T6 tower shield that had stats comparible to the T6 kites (which yes were a dime a dozen, I have 2 of some of them).  I can't wait for the grazzle tower shield (as soon as I am not having bugs eat me like candy).</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Ay]

<div>I thought that 'buckler' had to of meant any shield. I came here just to check. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is going on here!!!!!?!?!   A buckler is not only a loss of avoidance but "Protection".. i'd NEVER use a buckler.. what in the .....</div><div> </div><div>SOMEONE FIX THIS!</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[aislynn00]

<div>I really think people ought to calm down and look at the actual facts instead of throwing tantrums.  Wanting to enjoy the tremendous benefits of the stamina line while still wielding the best shield in the game isn't balanced, at all. </div><div> </div><div>If tower/kite shields worked with the stamina line, the benefits of half the abilities in said line would have to be nerfed.  Have you actually looked at the DPS increase that double attack ability affords?  Unless you want to go all the way for the final strength line AA and spend most of your time below 50% HP, it blows everything else in any of the lines right out of the water.</div><div> </div><div>And what about the 360 degrees avoidance ability?  Did you guys just so happen to miss that the ability does not one but <em>two</em> things: 1% riposte/parry per level as well as <em>1% bonus to block per level</em>? </div><div> </div><div>Let's play around with a few rough numbers.</div><div> </div><div>I got a treasured tier 7 buckler the first night I hunted in KoS.  It wasn't anything special except for its nice protection value, but I have kept it around since then for AA testing purposes. </div><div> </div><div>Then we have that legendary tower shield with kick-[Removed for Content] protection rating which can be quested in the Bonemire.</div><div> </div><div>The two shields aren't of the same quality level, obviously, and one a great deal harder to come by than the other, but that only serves to illustrate my point even more clearly:</div><div> </div><div><strong>Buckler</strong></div><div>Protection: ~600</div><div>Block %: ~10%</div><div> </div><div><strong>Tower Shield</strong></div><div>Protection: ~1200</div><div>Block %: ~20%</div><div> </div><div>Now let's add in the AA block bonus:</div><div> </div><div><strong>Buckler</strong></div><div>Block %: ~10% + 8% = ~18%</div><div> </div><div><div><strong>Tower Shield</strong></div><div>Block %: ~20%</div><div> </div></div><div>Doesn't look so bad now, I'd say, with the buckler a mere 2% behind the tier 7 legendary tower shield.  But wait, we aren't done yet; there is still the 8% chance of riposting/parrying attacks:</div><div> </div><div><strong>Buckler</strong></div><div>Avoidance % w/o Base and Standard Parry *: 100% - (100% - 18%) x (100% - 8%) = ~24.6%</div><div> </div><div><strong>Tower Shield</strong></div><div>Avoidance % w/o Base and Standard Parry *: ~20%</div><div> </div><div>* Note: I'm ignoring standard parry and base avoidance since they would be the same for both shields.</div><div> </div><div>So, we end up with an approximate 4.6% greater chance of avoiding damage when using a buckler with the stamina line avoidance AA.  How about that.</div><div> </div><div>Now consider the possibility of finding a better buckler out there.  Keep in mind, we were comparing a treasured drop off a Sanctum of Scale named which can be single-grouped easily at 60th with a legendary quested shield which probably requires a 67th level group to acquire.</div><div> </div><div>And finally, let's look at what you get on top of that 4.6% avoidance edge: </div><div> </div><ul><li>8% of the time, you will actually riposte and not just block an attack, thus earning more hate for yourself.</li><li>When you are attacked from the back or flank, your tower shield doesn't block anything whatsoever.  With your buckler and stamina AA ability, conversely, you would be parrying 8% of all attacks.</li><li>Arguably one of the two best single-target DPS abilities of the warrior AA tree becomes available to you.</li></ul>

[Dimgl]

<div>I agree wholeheartedly with aislynn00. I have been wondering if I am the only one who has been looking at the STA line and thinking it was fantastic even with a limitation to bucklers. I plan on using a trident and a buckler if I can and teaming up the AGI and STA lines. The only concern I have is how the double attack proc chance scales, and how it functions. If it scales up to 100% chance then it still won't proc every time excluding weapons of 3.0 or greater auto-attack speed. (Tridents are the slowest 1hers clocking in at 2.8, and also happen to be a spear.) If the second attack of a double attack can proc things like fury stance (I'm a zerker) or dragoon's cyclone then it may be possible to set up some wicked combos for great dps while sacrificing no tanking ability, assuming you invest in the shield block and riposte/parry as well. Without that assumption, the argument loses ground fast.</div><div> </div><div>For those demanding a tower shield, how balanced of an ability do you think +8% shield block and +8% riposte (front) and parry (sides/back) would be with a tower shield? Flat out +16% frontal avoidance? I agree that a buckler is going to look stupid, and the penalty is too severe on Guardians who require a tower shield for an ability though, Tower of Stone needs to be reconsidered in light of AAs, or vice versa.</div>

[Excedium]

<div>Or stick with the Legendary Tower shield screw the sta line and get the other AAs where most work with any set up. Every other AA line works with any weapon and or shield combination (minus the one in each tree where it requires a specific weapon). Why would we choose an AA line that will only work if we have a buckler equipped at all times? Not to mention it would  cost 49 points to get it slightly better then a tower shield with no AAs. Does that makes sense? Im really trying to like the line but buckler only limitation makes the points spent in it a waste when we could use the other lines which would be passive with whatever we use.</div>

[Aar]

IMO, the line is definately designed for the soloing tank...increased dps, and no need to hunt down elusive tower shields.But, if I were going to do that, I'd be a berserker <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   ToS is just too usefull to give up as a guardian, and while the buckler abilities are nice, its defense that's going to be the bread and butter of Guardians.  And, I think you can get better defensive AA's by going down the other aa paths combined with a tower shield.<div></div>

[Elusi]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div>I really think [etc]<hr></div></blockquote><p> </p><p>This would be all fine and dandy if you didn't leave out the fact that if you decide to go with a normal shield you then have every other stat line to choose from. So yeah, with the sta line you can get the buckler to compare to a tower. Why would you want to spend points to do that when you can just use the tower in the first place, and then top it off with a nice strength line? You can try to defend the sta line with numbers all you want, common sense tells us it's the stupid choice.</p><p>Message Edited by Elusian on <span class="date_text">02-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:13 AM</span></p>

[R]

<div></div>The skill that improves block/riposte level is only about 4-4.5% at lvl 8, I forget which.. That's how it was in beta at least.

[Ay]

<div>exactly elusian. The sta line does nothing but cancel itself out.. i'd stick with tower and hit another line. its really dumb that i'm forced to even make a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] decision though.</div>

[aislynn00]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>saphka wrote:<div></div>The skill that improves block/riposte level is only about 4-4.5% at lvl 8, I forget which.. That's how it was in beta at least.<hr></blockquote><p>If that is the case, then I would agree, the stamina line isn't worth it.  However, if the increase is 8%, as I have heretofore assumed, then the stamina line goes well beyond merely compensating for not using a tower shield; it makes buckler plus stamina line superior to tower shield plus any other line.</p><p>Apart from that, to those who were talking about having to give up Tower of Stone in order to equip a buckler, I would suggest experimenting with swapping in a tower shield via your hot bar.  That is what I, and thousands of others who don't want to damage our primary shield, have been doing for months.</p>

[TanRaistlyn]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>saphka wrote:<div></div>The skill that improves block/riposte level is only about 4-4.5% at lvl 8, I forget which.. That's how it was in beta at least.<hr></blockquote><p>If that is the case, then I would agree, the stamina line isn't worth it.  However, if the increase is 8%, as I have heretofore assumed, then the stamina line goes well beyond merely compensating for not using a tower shield; it makes buckler plus stamina line superior to tower shield plus any other line.</p><p>Apart from that, to those who were talking about having to give up Tower of Stone in order to equip a buckler, I would suggest experimenting with swapping in a tower shield via your hot bar.  That is what I, and thousands of others who don't want to damage our primary shield, have been doing for months.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Your numbers in your first post are way way way way way off.  Maxed out lines give u like 5percent to parry/riposte.  The difference from a <strong>T6 Tower(legendary) to a T7 buckler(legendary)</strong> is about 23 percent avoidance<strong>.</strong>  This line is completely and utterly worthless other then the double attack skill you can get for additional dps.  But if your after dps Id recommend the Agi line as you get a Aoe Auto attack AND a extra big damage PBAOE attack, and still get to keep your ubah tower sheilds, not to mention a 12 second invulnerability from the wisdom line which is unparralleled for a guardian.</p><p>This line would not be overpowered with the small percentages you get to parry and riposte even if they allowed it with a tower sheild.  Giving you skills to cancel one another out, seems completely worthless.  From a purely role playing standpoint why would I train up in one skill only to have it rendered useless by another???  Tower of stone is the single best defining skill pre 60 for a tanking guardian, why cancel it out by adding this insanity.</p><p>Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:24 AM</span></p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>TanRaistlyn wrote:</p><p>...why cancel it out by adding this insanity.</p><p>Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:24 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Because, once upon a time, Guardians were the very best tanks in the game.  Now, we are relegated to being the [Removed for Content] children of the fighter archtype.

[infernus006]

Just so you know, we tanking Berserkers are majorly PO'ed about this too.  It just doesn't make any sense for the STA line for Warriors to require a buckler no matter how you try to look at it.  Even if your avoidance does turn out to be slightly better with the bucker with those AA's it's still not worth it.  If they need to nerf the abilities to make them more balanced while using a tower sheild then that's what they need to do.  Because I really do want the extra HP and the final ability of the STA line but I don't think that I am willing to waste 8 points on 2 abilities that I will never use just to get it.  As a Zerker I don't even have a CA that requires the use of a tower sheild like you Guards do and I am still not willing to use bucker for anything.  I don't know about you, but I don't feel like being mistaken for a Cleric.  I had already planned to max out the WIS path (which is nice except for the hammer requirement but I am willing to live with that) and one other path which was going to be the STA line.  Unless they change it then I guess I will go with either the AGI or STR line instead now.  And that sucks because I don't like the final abilities in either one of those paths nearly as much as the STA one.  And the INT line is out of the question for me.  Once again, if the abilities are too powerful to be used with a tower sheild then by all means, nerf the abilities so they can be used with a tower shield because that's the only way that I will ever be able to use them.<div></div>

[aislynn00]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TanRaistlyn wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>saphka wrote:<div></div>The skill that improves block/riposte level is only about 4-4.5% at lvl 8, I forget which.. That's how it was in beta at least.<hr></blockquote><p>If that is the case, then I would agree, the stamina line isn't worth it.  However, if the increase is 8%, as I have heretofore assumed, then the stamina line goes well beyond merely compensating for not using a tower shield; it makes buckler plus stamina line superior to tower shield plus any other line.</p><p>Apart from that, to those who were talking about having to give up Tower of Stone in order to equip a buckler, I would suggest experimenting with swapping in a tower shield via your hot bar.  That is what I, and thousands of others who don't want to damage our primary shield, have been doing for months.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Your numbers in your first post are way way way way way off.  Maxed out lines give u like 5percent to parry/riposte.  The difference from a <strong>T6 Tower(legendary) to a T7 buckler(legendary)</strong> is about 23 percent avoidance<strong>.</strong></p><hr></blockquote><p>My approximated numbers aren't "way, way off".  Having ascertained this by looking at the persona window of my own guardian, I find that they are, in fact, slightly favoring tower shields.I have no idea about the protection value of a tier 7 buckler, of course, but that information really is irrelevant: if its protection value is significantly lower than that of a tier 7 treasured drop, why bother using it in any analysis.</p>

[Axor]

<div>i think its not that bad .. its not the raid tank choice, but i understand the dev point on this.</div><div> </div><div>first of all Gladiators used to use bucklers ( even bucklers were used with 2hders. )</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://www.gladiator.at/008/hoplomachus-n.jpg"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.gladiator.at/008/hoplomachus-n.jpg"></a></div><div> </div><div>Or Round shields with 1hders</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://www.maniadekit.com.br/images/Fotos/FHY5423.jpg"></div><div> </div><div>So talking about role ... is nothing strange to see a fighter without a tower shield.</div><div> </div><div>Is obvius that if you focus on defending yourself you cant be a good damage dealer, why ? try to swing a sword with a door of one of your lockets =P its kinda hard.</div><div> </div><div>Well forgeting the role... back to game :</div><div> </div><div>I dont like that line either, but is still on the line guardians always been, .. to do damage sacrifice your defensive.</div><div> </div><div>I wont consider it .. since im a raid tank but for an adventurer guy .. well i dont like it but whatever <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[WarShe]

<div>Just wondering, is are most of you considering doing the Strength line first since it has no weapon/shield requirment change?</div><div> </div><div>I have not yet decided between Str branch or the intel one which I wouldnt see an immidiate good use to my AA.</div>

[Lyrus]

Str line requires an axe for the first one.<div></div>

[Skratttt]

<div></div><p>The whole buckler part is intentional.......</p><p>Look at the Rogue Fencer line and see...they are required to have the offhand EMPTY (no shield) with a 1h weapon....Basically it gives them a reason to go 1h weapon</p><p>AA's are suposed to be a SMALL boost....not gamebreaking thats why after maxing the line u got Improovements over using a tower shield but not too much</p>

[Elusi]

<div></div><div></div><div>When you consider that bucklers have healer stats, it is not an improvement. Remember, there are bucklers and round shields. Round shields do not work either.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>And by the way, those pics above look more like brawlers then warriors.</div><p>Message Edited by Elusian on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:43 AM</span></p>

[Allurana]

<div></div><p>I just earned the first Tier 3 AA ability in the Stamina line last night.  I can confirm that it is truly buckler only.</p><p>It would be nice if they would at least allow round shield (my shiny brass shield now hangs in my house) or even kite shields.  I can understand not wanting towershields to not be used a little bit but come on.  Guardians have it pretty tough already in the whole "class balance" argument that letting us use some better shields for this line would make up for it a little bit.</p><p>The only thing I have to comfort me right now is that when I hit level 60 the player made bucklers finally have STA on them.  And from what I understand of the new tradeskill revamp they are phasing in over the next couple of LU's that they will be changing the stats on the lower tiers to fall in-line with the Tier 7 stats currently.  That should mean that playermade bucklers from the lower tiers will begin to have STA as well.</p><p>While I find the new buckler ability "neat" and I look forward to experimenting with it, it just seems kind of silly that my buckler has INT and WIS and no melee style attributes to it.</p><p>I took a serious hit to my mitigation and my hit points to try out this ability, I am hopeful I am not too disappointed.  I was just about at 6800hp with my pocket templar in tow before equipping the buckler last night (this is at level 54) and now I am around 6600ish. (imbued ironwood buckler)  I think I lost about 7% mitigation.  BTW....I was dual wielding imbued cobalt weapons before equipping the buckler so it wasn't from losing a tower shield or anything.</p><p>I will give this new ability an honest try.  It looks like it will be pretty cool but if I notice that I am fairing worse overall with it I wil be switching back.</p><p>As a mini-spoiler, the tier 3 ability is activated.  It is instant cast with NO power use.  It is a 30 second duration buff that I believe will fall off after one hit (I have to confirm this part yet).  The recast time is 30 seconds from the moment the original cast resolves.  So essentially you can keep it up constantly.  Like I mentioned I have to look into the buff removal after one successful proc.  The buff icon said "1 charge" which makes me believe it will fall off after one hit.</p><p>After I test it a bit I will do some feedback to Sony, but from what I can see at this point based on my assumptions.  The only tweak I would ask Sony would be to either let us use a little better shields if not any shield OR don't make the buff fall off after 1 hit.  I think it is appropriate to make us keep refreshing it every 30 seconds but I have been watching my damage screen a lot lately and noticed that most appropriately conned fights don't involve a lot of blocks, parry, or repostes which would mean this would not be all that unbalancing in regular fighting.  There are a lot of those events when fighting grays which would mean the guardian would tear through the grays very fast which is only appropriate anyway. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Thanks for considering these thoughts,</p><p>Allurana, 54 Guardian</p><p>Ms. Qeynos 2004, 2005 and 2006</p><p>Guild Founder and Leader of Smell The Roses</p><p>Blackburrow</p>

[Allurana]

<div></div><div>Here is an update on the STA line abilities:</div><div> </div><div>Last night I earned my 8th AA point and put it into Buckler Reversal to bring it up to level 3.</div><div> </div><div>The buckler reversal ability is (at this point) buckler only and is a 1 charge buff that you can apply instantly in or out of combat for no power cost.  It will activate just like it's description tells.</div><div> </div><div>I have found through continued use of this ability since I first earned it that it is actually very useful.  I am not a parser so I only have general gut impressions of it.</div><div> </div><div>As a Guardian, I am typically out of power most the time.  For some reason, SOE still believes that Guardians should only be allowed to have enough power to fight one mob at a time.  Any encounter or situation where you have more than 1 mob to fight, I am typically out of power for mob 2, 3, 4, etc.... the entire remaining fight with an occasional low power damage hit here and there when the power regenerates in fight.</div><div> </div><div>With this new ability, I am able to load in an extra 200 to 300ish damage hit per 30 seconds for free.  This has been a huge help to me.  I very rarely have had the situation where the buff expires without triggering while engaged.</div><div> </div><div>I am only 2 points away from getting my double attack increase and looking very forward to it.  In the beginning, I was pretty convinced that I would not be spending the 4 last points of AA into the remaining ranks of buckler reversal but now I can honestly say that I am "undecided".  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I am no longer firmly against and willing to evaluate it once I have reach the bottom of the stamina line and need to make choices as to a new line or filling in the STA one.</div><div> </div><div>One last item that I would love for SOE to put some attention to that I am a little worried about currently.  The final ability in the STA currently does NOTHING as described in the examine text.  I am hoping it is just a display bug or minor error at this point.  The structure of the text in the description says one thing and the effects description at the bottom say a different thing and actually will have zero effect.  Please SOE look into this as soon as you can.  I am progressing very quickly (quickly for me at least) toward this ability and really look forward to it doing something. hehe.</div><div> </div><div>Allurana, 55 Guardian</div><div>Blackburrow</div>

[Elusi]

<div>The only decent shield I've found that should work, does not work.</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/2155/eq20000605qj.jpg"><a target="_blank" href="http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/2155/eq20000605qj.jpg"></a></div>

[Sir_Halbarad]

It doesn't!?Dang, that shield made me consider working on sta line <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Not because it will be that good at lvl 70, but it showed SOE put Tank Bucklers in game.We should feedback this since piests = buckler only.<div></div>

[aislynn00]

<div>Hm... That was the very buckler I based my evaluation on.  If no bucklers with the improved protection factor work, the stamina line won't be worth it after all.</div>

[Chog]

<div></div><div>Bulwark of the Brave is definatly miss leading.  I definatly wish SOE would place the shield type in the description somewhere.  Used to be if a Priest could wield the shield it was classified as a buckler, now...</div>