Hold the Line CA line, not Logical

[RipFlex]

<div></div><div>Okay I made 1st level Guardian, and in 6 hours made him at 16th level (And people say the game still hard ?????).  Anyways, I read one of the Hold the Line buff I think it was, and it confused me... being a common sense type of Man and rely on basic logic to understand most things... Hold the Line functions in a counter-productive manner.  I think it is described as Hate is generated from the Monter that HITS you?  Let's see, the Guardian NEEDS a shield to utilized any of his  Shield CAs, and adds AVOIDANCE, right?  And the Guardian actually has a Decent AVOIDANCE as well as Excellent Mitigation, am I right?   And is it correct normally Guardians get the best Shield possible and numerically achieve the highest Mitigation AND as much avoidance to be very effective to avoid strikes and mitigate any damage that Might get through?  But yet this Skill, probably an important one that allows the Guardian to hold Agro, wants you to get hit to be effective?  So it's either dump the Shield and Dual-weild weapons for more DPS and get the lowest Avoidance possible to achieve effective Agro ???  Duh??  Or achieve best Mit/Avoidance possible and take that chance to lose Agro?</div><div> </div><div>Shouldn't this skill be like the Monks target Hate generator, as in 50% Chance HATE is generated from the Monster that Attacks you, or something of that nature?  That way you can try to achieve best Mit/Avoidance possible without lessening your Agro management and Use the Shield as a Guardian should want to?</div><div> </div><div>P.S. Sorry for sloppy post, dead tired and the idea just creeped into my head...</div><div> </div><div>Comments?</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by RipFlex on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:02 AM</span></p>

[Kesslaar]

<div></div><p>I regret to advise you appear to be totally correct on the insanity of the reverse working of this line. </p><p>If I remember right, the next bit of the discussion is HtL and the effect of damage wards...if they mobs cant hit you what does that do to your hate generation?</p><p>Are we better off telling our healers to let the mob hit us and tanking in Offensive stance to lower our overall mitigation while maximising our power pool for taunting? </p><p>For high mitigation and avoidance to be useful with this buff it would seem that some sort of mixed Frustration hate needs to be generated, the mobs can't hit us so they get angrier and try harder, when they do hit us we smile and laugh at them so they get angrier and try harder... </p><p> </p><p>Also the good news is that until LU19 the HtL line had a stuffed up movement snare that actually got worse as u improved the spell lines..I think at Adept III of "Inflaming defence" movement was slowed something like 107% or more. LU19 removed the snare, whether they put it back in a "fix" is unknown.</p><p>Not sure if  I made sense, tired also..</p>

[Banditman]

I wouldn't sweat it.  You're GOING to get hit.  Worse, you're GOING to get stunned.And even when you are stunned and silenced, you're still generating aggro because of HTL.HTL, pre-LU13 was a complete root.  When you cast it, you were STUCK.  However, it worked in reverse.  It proc'ed hate when YOU hit the mob.What happened is that during the balancing for LU13, Guardians were being hit and stunned more often and unable to attack and proc the hate portion of HTL.  Therefore, in order to better help Guardians generate hate, HTL was reversed so that even when stunned, Guards were able to generate hate.You're not a Brawler, you're SUPPOSED to get hit.  That's ok, it's normal.  Every time you do, you have a chance to proc hate.You *do* have other taunts incidentally.

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>When your in a group and people land debuffs on the mob it will hit you even less. Therefore even less chance to get agro from HTL. It's a broken concept just like our protection utility.</p><p>The best time to get agro with HTL is when your pulling and get smacked around a couple of times before you get set and the mobs get debuffed. Now that you can move with HTL up that is actually a bit better. Some testing was done by a level 60 Guardian and his results showed something like a 40% resist rate on HTL for yellows. You can look for it on this forum, it shouldn't be to far down the list.</p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>Sad thing is, their are now 2 threads dedicated to this topic, this one started by a Guardian, and another started by a Mystic.  Beyond that, their are countless posts in other threads pointing out the flaws in HTL.</p><p>And yet, no Dev response.</p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:HTL, pre-LU13 was a complete root.  When you cast it, you were STUCK.  However, it worked in reverse.  It proc'ed hate when YOU hit the mob.What happened is that during the balancing for LU13, Guardians were being hit and stunned more often and unable to attack and proc the hate portion of HTL.  Therefore, in order to better help Guardians generate hate, HTL was reversed so that even when stunned, Guards were able to generate hate.<hr></blockquote><p>huh???  its been a few months now but HtL has always been proc when hit...</p><p>*edit* oh my name is purple now and i have a guardian title...  [Removed for Content] does that mean???</p><p>Message Edited by Wabit on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:02 PM</span></p>

[Junaru]

Well sadly Monks hate proc is counter productive also. We get a 50% chance to proc hate with each main hand attack that lands, yet when we are tanking in defence stance we lose crushing, peircing, slashing to the point it's hard to hit mobs.I think it's SOE way of messing with our heads.<div></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:Well sadly Monks hate proc is counter productive also. We get a 50% chance to proc hate with each main hand attack that lands, yet when we are tanking in defence stance we lose crushing, peircing, slashing to the point it's hard to hit mobs.I think it's SOE way of messing with our heads.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>50%?  I thought it was 25%...?</p><p>Anyway, Def Stance is counter-productive for almost all tank classes.  Monk hate proc shines against lower con mobs, because you hit them more.  Ours takes a hit against lower con because they hit us less.</p><p>The flip side is, yours is less potent against higher con mobs, because you cant hit them as much.  We, however, get hit more by higher con mobs, but they tend to resist us much, much more.</p><p>HTL seems to be most suited for even-con encounters where the mob is not slowed, we dont have great buffs, we dual weild, in offense stance, the mob isn't debuffed, and we dont have a ward based healer.  If all those things are true, it works great.</p>

[Doctor G]

<div></div><p>HTL gets an upgrade every 14 lvls or so correct?</p><p> </p>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>*edit* oh my name is purple now and i have a guardian title...  [Removed for Content] does that mean???</p><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>means you just got nerf'd.. might as well stop posting now man.. unless your posting in a thread where your the MP with 23 other people, your posting days are over..</span></div>

[RipFlex]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:Well sadly Monks hate proc is counter productive also. We get a 50% chance to proc hate with each main hand attack that lands, yet when we are tanking in defence stance we lose crushing, peircing, slashing to the point it's hard to hit mobs.I think it's SOE way of messing with our heads.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>50%?  I thought it was 25%...?</p><p>Anyway, Def Stance is counter-productive for almost all tank classes.  Monk hate proc shines against lower con mobs, because you hit them more.  Ours takes a hit against lower con because they hit us less.</p><p>The flip side is, yours is less potent against higher con mobs, because you cant hit them as much.  We, however, get hit more by higher con mobs, but they tend to resist us much, much more.</p><p>HTL seems to be most suited for even-con encounters where the mob is not slowed, we dont have great buffs, we dual weild, in offense stance, the mob isn't debuffed, and we dont have a ward based healer.  If all those things are true, it works great.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes the Monks it's 50% chance to generate hate from target (a Solo hate regenerator) and if we use our defensive stance we lower our slash/crush/piercing up to 20 points, mines AD3 it's at 17 points = 3 levels lower and a bit worse, but I enjoy 24 points in Defense, Parry and some Mitigations.  If it's oranges I just use Black Widow stance.</p><p>But yes some these lines can be counter productive either by your own class or from other classes like wards and mezzing mobs.  But to what a previous poster said HtL not our only taunt, but if SONY places a enfance on HtL as our dire needed way to hold agro and lower the hate regen on our basic taunts... then it is important... if HtL just a added bonus or just adds a little more Haste and our other taunt lines are at the front stange in our agro management... then I'm fine with it.</p><p>As a Monk my tanking makes other pull their hair out, I HAVE to switch targets on a pulled group to feed more hate since Monks only have single target taunting and hate generator and a loooooong (20sec) 1 Group taught not up to par with any other Tanks and gets resisted strangely often at Master II...  but that's just the way it is... I use an MA when I can.</p><p>Sadly I feel all tanks are struggling with this in different ways?  Most of this will be better if Taunts were not resisted period... I group taunt as my monk see 2 resisted and I have a High DPSing group... time to panick... target switching mode go go go....</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by RipFlex on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:09 PM</span></p>

[Zinth]

The easy fix to hold the line is make it proc when attacke and just reduce the rate to balance it out. Then ward can be used on guards.<div></div>

[Shizzirri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>HTL seems to be most suited for even-con encounters where the mob is not slowed, we dont have great buffs, we dual weild, in offense stance, the mob isn't debuffed, and we dont have a ward based healer.  If all those things are true, it works great.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Ya that's what I do, usually use a 2 hander though instead of DW, of course all the DW ripos would make HTL proc more im sure.</p><p>Also "forget" to cast call of defense that helps a lot also (either that or just leave it at app 1).</p><p>Exp groups def isn't needed on a guard unless your killling named probably.</p>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:Well sadly Monks hate proc is counter productive also. We get a 50% chance to proc hate with each main hand attack that lands, yet when we are tanking in defence stance we lose crushing, peircing, slashing to the point it's hard to hit mobs.I think it's SOE way of messing with our heads.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>50%?  I thought it was 25%...?</p><p>Anyway, Def Stance is counter-productive for almost all tank classes.  Monk hate proc shines against lower con mobs, because you hit them more.  Ours takes a hit against lower con because they hit us less.</p><p>The flip side is, yours is less potent against higher con mobs, because you cant hit them as much.  We, however, get hit more by higher con mobs, but they tend to resist us much, much more.</p><p>HTL seems to be most suited for even-con encounters where the mob is not slowed, we dont have great buffs, we dual weild, in offense stance, the mob isn't debuffed, and we dont have a ward based healer.  If all those things are true, it works great.</p><hr></blockquote>Monks are 50% for a little hate, Brusiers are 25% for a larger hate. In the end the numbers are pretty much the same.</span></div>

[Vandileir]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:Well sadly Monks hate proc is counter productive also. We get a 50% chance to proc hate with each main hand attack that lands, yet when we are tanking in defence stance we lose crushing, peircing, slashing to the point it's hard to hit mobs.I think it's SOE way of messing with our heads.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I would just like to note that Monks get a "Balanced Stance" that increases both offensive and defensive capabilities with NO penalty what so ever. They get this in addition to a defensive stance, and offensive stance, and a penalty less hate proc buff (and yes, it is 50%)</p><p>I almost never use my defensive stance on my monk unless I am fighting orange mobs or very yellow nameds mobs</p><p>Guardians get one or the other in terms of stances. And prior to this update (which may have been a mistake even, ugh...) our HTL crippled us in a root, or later on a heavy heavy snare. Master II maddening defense was like 139% snare or something.</p><p>Message Edited by Vandileir on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:03 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Vandileir on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:03 PM</span></p>

[mastersard]

<div></div>So let me get this right:  Monks get a "balanced stance" to increase offense and defence, and then can use their true "Offensive stance" to boost DPS output even more?

[MoonglumHMV]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div>So let me get this right:  Monks get a "balanced stance" to increase offense and defence, and then can use their true "Offensive stance" to boost DPS output even more?<hr></blockquote><p>Yes and here are the 3 stats at Master 1 level (as per the EQ2 Item Database):</p><p>Offensive - Halcyon Blessing - inc attack speed 36%, inc crushing & ranged 35, & decrease def by 14.7</p><p>Defensive - Coiling Serpent - inc defense & deflection by 28, inc mit vs all physical dam by 464, inc mit vs mental by 1856, dec slash/pierce/crushing by 17.4</p><p>Balanced - Black Widow Stance - inc attack speed by 19.4, inc deflection/crushing/ranged by 13.9, inc mitigation vs all physical damage by 232, inc mit vs mental by 928</p><p>Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:07 PM</span></p>

[RipFlex]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div>So let me get this right:  Monks get a "balanced stance" to increase offense and defence, and then can use their true "Offensive stance" to boost DPS output even more?<hr></blockquote><p>No, we can only use 1 of the 3 "true" stances, the Balance stance is a stance... dunno where this was a non-true one whateverthat means... all it is is that you get around half the offense and half defense beneifits of both stances without penalties, crippling, rooting, stunning crap effects like some other fighter arch-types seem to have.</p><p> </p>

[MoonglumHMV]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>RipFlex wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div>So let me get this right:  Monks get a "balanced stance" to increase offense and defence, and then can use their true "Offensive stance" to boost DPS output even more?<hr></blockquote><p>No, we can only use 1 of the 3 "true" stances, the Balance stance is a stance... dunno where this was a non-true one whateverthat means... all it is is that you get around half the offense and half defense beneifits of both stances without penalties, crippling, rooting, stunning crap effects like some other fighter arch-types seem to have.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Thanks for catching that...I didn't read the original post correctly, I just glanced over the part about being able to use multiple stances.