If you can't beat them, join them, why I think you should make a Monk [Archive]

Shizzirri

02-07-2006, 09:17 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vorham wrote:<div></div><p>yes you can solo fine as a brawler</p><p>yes, you can tank as a brawler in exp groups and probably some raids</p><p>the downsides are:</p><p>you will get used to this if you play a brawler for any length of time..</p><p>number 1 -- our group aggro is pretty crappy compared to a plate tanks... you have to work your [Removed for Content] off, switch targets, do all that. Group mobs are extremely stressful for a brawler, you have to be on your toes and try to aggro each mob individually... our group taunts are far too weak to keep them off the AE'rs... and our proc taunts only affect the mob we are attacking at the moment... Bruisers have Savage Blows which is a nice AE taunt if it is up, and if it lands, but you still might lose aggro if you're in a a group with people who have high AE damage.</p><p>number 2 -- you will never get chosen to tank first in groups and raids... and be prepared to hear a lot of "brawlers aren't tanks" along the way. when i say you wont be chosen first, I mean that unless you are the leader of your guild, or somehow are popular beyond belief, or somehow decked out in the uberest fabled beyond your guilds zerks and guardians, or the raid is wiping and you find aggro on you, you will not be tanking epic mobs over the plate types unless your guild is just messing around. And why aren't you? because when the plate tank gets hit for 6k you get hit for 9 or 10k. you can tank epics if in the MT group, with MT buffs, but it is never as nice as a plate tank instead.</p><p>number 3-- leather armor, and brawler weapons, are rare as heck compared to the number of swords and chain/plate that seems to drop. get used to seeing nothing that's an upgrade for you drop.</p><p>If you can put up with these 3 caveats at the high end, welcome to the world of the brawler.</p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Number 1 - you have to do the same thing with guardians, especially when theres mages in the group who AE, one taunt resist on your first couple on the pull can make the fight interesting to say the least.</p><p>Number 2 - your going into the area of where warriors are best, tanking raids, there spells are pretty much meant for it, I mean who uses tower of stoneor sentry watch in a group for example?</p><p>Number 3 - Now this is just flat out funny because every time we raid gates at least two brawler only items drop. My warden alt is almost in a full fabled set of armor because so much leather drops on our raids no one loots it. Gates of anket aken in particular drops a ton of leather for both monks and druids. Its all a matter of luck in terms of drops my rule always was if I play my guardian the no trade fabled druid BP will drop, if I play my warden the no trade fabled BP for plate wearers would drop.</p><p>But let's go over where brawlers shine, on 1-2 mobs in the encounter, on my monk alt (which is 46) I taunt once and focus with dps, and let dragon stance do the rest, you don't have to taunt just do various attacks (like the flurry + lightning fists which I usually use on the 2nd mob) usually can keep that mob on you, while you burn down the other. Oddly though I find monks to be worse with power than guardians. Guardians on one mob just like others have to spam CA's, taunts, etc because we don't have the DPS of a brawler</p>

JudyJudy

02-08-2006, 01:18 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shizzirri wrote:<p>But let's go over where brawlers shine, on 1-2 mobs in the encounter, on my monk alt (which is 46) I taunt once and focus with dps, and let dragon stance do the rest, you don't have to taunt just do various attacks (like the flurry + lightning fists which I usually use on the 2nd mob) usually can keep that mob on you, while you burn down the other. Oddly though I find monks to be worse with power than guardians. Guardians on one mob just like others have to spam CA's, taunts, etc because we don't have the DPS of a brawler</p><hr></blockquote><p><em>You're right Shizzirri, we do shine with our single taunt, dragon stance and dps on the GREEN/BLUE 1-2 mob encounter. However, next time you get a chance, try taunting once and pulling out your dps on an orange heroic - or orange heroic named for that matter. Then let's see how long you keep agro before your group-mate's steal it from you. But even you, Shizzirri, know that it can be done, and done well. I'm sure you've tanked your share of heroics, named and epics; so I'll not dispute your knowledge. But c'mon now - be honest... You and I both know it's certainly not just "click n' flick" like you're making it out to be. </em><em>It's all situational.</em></p><p></p>

Timzil

02-09-2006, 12:31 AM

<div></div><p>With the upcoming nerf in KoS to all mitigation tank gear, legandary and below, the smart bet is on Monks/Bruisers for tanking supremacy in T7. Since avoidance is largely level based, their tanking ability will scale with the content as they level. Plate classes ability, since it's entirely gear based, will decrease as they face T7 content while wearing T6.5 gear. Unless, of course, you're one of the 3 toons on your server who are fortunate enough to be decked in fabled in a timely maner.</p><p>I don't look at it so much as trying to beat them. I do play a Monk now as my tank, and he's worlds more capable than the guardian in all areas that can be measured. It's not even the same game when viewed from either class. Anyway, I look at it as what's the best shot at having fun in this game. I like playing a tank, and I like winning. Monks the only choice really, now and especially when KoS lands.</p><p>Spudge 60 Guardian</p><p>Spadge 52 Monk</p>

Wabit

02-09-2006, 11:45 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Timzilla wrote:<div></div><p>With the upcoming nerf in KoS to all mitigation tank gear, legandary and below, the smart bet is on Monks/Bruisers for tanking supremacy in T7.</p><hr></blockquote>what nerf???

SkarlSpeedbu

02-09-2006, 06:24 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Timzilla wrote:<div></div><p>With the upcoming nerf in KoS to all mitigation tank gear, legandary and below, the smart bet is on Monks/Bruisers for tanking supremacy in T7.</p><hr></blockquote>what nerf???<hr></blockquote>I think he is referring to the fact that rare t7 crafted won't be any better/maybe worse than t6 crafted. This won't apply to the raid bunnys.

Sir_Halbarad

02-09-2006, 08:23 PM

Actually, T7 rare crafted isn't nerfed, it just isn't such a huge upgrade as T6 was over T5.BP/Legs have 402, other slots 375 Mitigation (1 less than t6 rare)There are 3 different armor sets, giving you 3x +23 to one stat (23 STR and 23 INT on all legs for example, Choice of 23 AGI/STA/WIS)you have 47 HP, 47 PowerNo ResistsEquippable at 62<div></div>

Dart

02-10-2006, 11:31 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vorham wrote:<div></div><p>yes you can solo fine as a brawler</p><p>yes, you can tank as a brawler in exp groups and probably some raids</p><p>the downsides are:</p><p>you will get used to this if you play a brawler for any length of time..</p><p>number 1 -- our group aggro is pretty crappy compared to a plate tanks... you have to work your [Removed for Content] off, switch targets, do all that. Group mobs are extremely stressful for a brawler, you have to be on your toes and try to aggro each mob individually... our group taunts are far too weak to keep them off the AE'rs... and our proc taunts only affect the mob we are attacking at the moment... Bruisers have Savage Blows which is a nice AE taunt if it is up, and if it lands, but you still might lose aggro if you're in a a group with people who have high AE damage.</p><p>number 2 -- you will never get chosen to tank first in groups and raids... and be prepared to hear a lot of "brawlers aren't tanks" along the way. when i say you wont be chosen first, I mean that unless you are the leader of your guild, or somehow are popular beyond belief, or somehow decked out in the uberest fabled beyond your guilds zerks and guardians, or the raid is wiping and you find aggro on you, you will not be tanking epic mobs over the plate types unless your guild is just messing around. And why aren't you? because when the plate tank gets hit for 6k you get hit for 9 or 10k. you can tank epics if in the MT group, with MT buffs, but it is never as nice as a plate tank instead.</p><p>number 3-- leather armor, and brawler weapons, are rare as heck compared to the number of swords and chain/plate that seems to drop. get used to seeing nothing that's an upgrade for you drop.</p><p>If you can put up with these 3 caveats at the high end, welcome to the world of the brawler.</p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>coming froma 60 Guardian and a 60 Warlock - The bruiser is a great class and well designed. I will most likely be swithcing my main to bruiser.</p><p>I gladly give up tanking the 2% of end game content to have FD/Mez/Fear/Knock back effect on many of our CA's/Mend/Safe fall/DPS/Group tanking.</p><p>Ill agree on two points: Agro on mutiple mobs is a challenge, I wont be tanking end game contact for Raids.. So what I am having so much more fun with the bruiser than I have with any other class played to date. I have been soloing Heroic mobs since level 10. Went from 0 to 40 in under 3 weeks. Was soloing named in FG from 25 to 35, amassed roughly 30 master spells. My 40 bruiser has already made 5 plat off his broker. I personally had 5 master (Bruisers) drop that I scribed. Throw in a Mace of ... Cant rem the name but procs 266 hp heal, and omg my bruiser is unstopple againts Blue ^^^ heroics.</p><p>Ya I like the class, tank near as good as my guardian did (minus challenge of holding agro on mutiple mobs), work around is to set an MA so I can cycle single target taunts and CA's that build hate on all the mobs. Oh and the kicker, my bruiser can kill [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] as fast as my warlock does, unless its a group of 3 or more VVV mobs. All this power and fun in one class. Ya Bruiser is a decent class /wink </p><p>I cant help but wonder... DID SOE really get this class right, or all of the other classes that I have played so wrong?</p>

Crim001

02-11-2006, 05:47 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darton wrote:<div></div><p>I cant help but wonder... DID SOE really get this class right, or all of the other classes that I have played so wrong?</p><hr></blockquote>I have a feeling that the bruisers have "god" shining on them right now.....

firewolf

02-11-2006, 09:24 AM

Try tanking 4++ heroic yellow and above group encounter with your bruiser/monk. Keeping agro is one problem. Also once you get hit, you usually gets hit for close to max damage. As the number of mobs in an encounter increases so does the chances of getting hit. That is what bruiser/monk gives up for better dps on single target and better soloing abilities. Bruiser/Monk cannot be considered as a better tank with weakness in holding agro on group encounters. Most of the dungeons have a lot of 4-8 heroic group encounters. When you have 2 different encounters to deal with at the same time, good luck on holding agro if you are a bruiser/monk. The lack of AE taunt will be severely missed.<div></div>

Timzil

02-11-2006, 11:24 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>firewolf wrote:Try tanking 4++ heroic yellow and above group encounter with your bruiser/monk. Keeping agro is one problem. Also once you get hit, you usually gets hit for close to max damage. As the number of mobs in an encounter increases so does the chances of getting hit. That is what bruiser/monk gives up for better dps on single target and better soloing abilities. Bruiser/Monk cannot be considered as a better tank with weakness in holding agro on group encounters. Most of the dungeons have a lot of 4-8 heroic group encounters. When you have 2 different encounters to deal with at the same time, good luck on holding agro if you are a bruiser/monk. The lack of AE taunt will be severely missed.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't have any real agro issues playing the Monk. For one, I only pull one group at a time. Seems kinda silly to me to engage multiple groups. For that odd time when I'm not paying attention or I just don't give a crap, it only takes a taunt or a couple taps from my staff to lock down the add group. Really though, big whoop if a mage takes a hit or two from 1/3rd or 2/5ths of a group encounter. I haven't lost a groupmate yet. Course my healer is always on the ball, and the DPS I hunt with know how to play as well. This whole agro thing is way over played by all tank types. It just ain't that big of a deal in my experience. At any rate, like so many other parts of an encounter solution, agro control is a group task. It's not the sole responsibility of the guy up front.</p><p>When my Monk gets hit, he doesn't get hit for near max ever. Self buffed my mitigation is 38.9 percent at level 54. Just grouping with a Warden and a Conjuror it's at 49.7 percent. Then I still have the short term mit buffs to pop. Not that I ever need them. Not to mention I have a 4K ward against spell damage. Then there's always Mend for that spike that by some miracle gets through. Honestly I haven't used Mend but maybe 3 times in the last 4 levels. Props to my healer again, but there's also something to be said about the Monk class there too.</p><p>Just got done with a small group in Stormfeathers Roost. Monk, Conjuror and Warden. We're all level 54, and the mobs there go 55 to 58. We owned it easily. No contest really. My Guardian wasn't able to duo/trio there until the mobs conned blue, and even then it was hairy on the names.</p><p>I mostly duo/trio with my wife and a box. When we brought our guardian/templar up and saw a yellow con named heroic, I'd say let's come back in two or three levels. When our Monk/Warden team see that yellow con, I just say "incomming." Guardian class is obsolete in every way for non-raid grouping. I'm sure as a raid tool they work fine. Just stand there and mitigate while 3 healers spam you and 20 people kill your target. I'm also sure that for everything else they can get the job done given some support from groupmates, but a monk will get it done faster and have more impact on the encounter than just standing there. If there's any disadvantage to playing a Monk, I haven't discovered it yet.</p><p>Spudge 60 Guardian, Spadge 54 Monk</p>

Crim001

02-13-2006, 09:58 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Timzilla wrote:<p>I don't have any real agro issues playing the Monk. For one, I only pull one group at a time. Seems kinda silly to me to engage multiple groups. For that odd time when I'm not paying attention or I just don't give a crap, it only takes a taunt or a couple taps from my staff to lock down the add group. Really though, big whoop if a mage takes a hit or two from 1/3rd or 2/5ths of a group encounter. I haven't lost a groupmate yet. Course my healer is always on the ball, and the DPS I hunt with know how to play as well. This whole agro thing is way over played by all tank types. It just ain't that big of a deal in my experience. At any rate, like so many other parts of an encounter solution, agro control is a group task. It's not the sole responsibility of the guy up front.</p><p>When my Monk gets hit, he doesn't get hit for near max ever. Self buffed my mitigation is 38.9 percent at level 54. Just grouping with a Warden and a Conjuror it's at 49.7 percent. Then I still have the short term mit buffs to pop. Not that I ever need them. Not to mention I have a 4K ward against spell damage. Then there's always Mend for that spike that by some miracle gets through. Honestly I haven't used Mend but maybe 3 times in the last 4 levels. Props to my healer again, but there's also something to be said about the Monk class there too.</p><p>Just got done with a small group in Stormfeathers Roost. Monk, Conjuror and Warden. We're all level 54, and the mobs there go 55 to 58. We owned it easily. No contest really. My Guardian wasn't able to duo/trio there until the mobs conned blue, and even then it was hairy on the names.</p><p>I mostly duo/trio with my wife and a box. When we brought our guardian/templar up and saw a yellow con named heroic, I'd say let's come back in two or three levels. When our Monk/Warden team see that yellow con, I just say "incomming." Guardian class is obsolete in every way for non-raid grouping. I'm sure as a raid tool they work fine. Just stand there and mitigate while 3 healers spam you and 20 people kill your target. I'm also sure that for everything else they can get the job done given some support from groupmates, but a monk will get it done faster and have more impact on the encounter than just standing there. If there's any disadvantage to playing a Monk, I haven't discovered it yet.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I believe this is the holy grail guards have been looking for <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Perhaps if you hit 60 we can get some parses.....</p><p>As for hitting 49.7 mitg.....thats around as much mitg as I had with mixed ebon and cobalt armor at the same level.</p>

emeraldrock jr

02-13-2006, 07:00 PM

<div></div><div>Why was this posted in the guardian forums...?</div>

mastersard

02-14-2006, 08:21 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>emeraldrock jr wrote:<div></div><div>Why was this posted in the guardian forums...?</div><hr></blockquote><p>It's a post from a Guardian who has realised why monks are superior to Guardians in all ways other that Raid MTs.</p><p>The post previous to yours is a very good assesment of Monk vs Guard. A 54 Monk (in a trio group) can tank Heroic content level 55-58 that a Gaurdian can't tank until closer to 60? And this is normal?</p>

Gaige

02-15-2006, 12:18 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>emeraldrock jr wrote:<div></div><div>Why was this posted in the guardian forums...?</div><hr></blockquote><p>Well, because since the beginning of time guardians have felt the need to blame brawlers (especially monks) for changes that happen to thier class.</p><p>/shrug</p>

Wabit

02-15-2006, 12:40 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><p>Well, because since the beginning of time guardians have felt the need to blame brawlers (especially monks) for changes that happen to thier class.</p><p>/shrug</p><hr></blockquote><p>i always wondered when time began... now i know LU13 :smileysad: ...</p><p>as for why the post is here... dunno, i just skimmed it...</p>

Timzil

02-15-2006, 12:52 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>emeraldrock jr wrote:<div></div><div>Why was this posted in the guardian forums...?</div><hr></blockquote><p>Well, because since the beginning of time guardians have felt the need to blame brawlers (especially monks) for changes that happen to thier class.</p><p>/shrug</p><hr></blockquote><p>Close but no cigar. It's only been since Monks caused the changes that we've been blaiming them. From the beginning of time up till then, we were happy just standing there.</p><p>I'm happy again now. We Monks just just plain out rock, don't we Gaige? Our trio made 55. We celebrated by trioing the whole CQ quest start to finish. I have to confess the Majdul and SS encounters weren't gimmes at 55. They were actually pretty close calls. I'm sure it wouldn't have been nearly as close as a Guardian.</p><p>Spudge 60 Guardian / Spadge 56 Monk</p>

Krooner

02-15-2006, 01:09 AM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>emeraldrock jr wrote:<div></div><div>Why was this posted in the guardian forums...?</div><hr></blockquote><p>Well, because since the beginning of time guardians have felt the need to blame brawlers (especially monks) for changes that happen to thier class.</p><p>/shrug</p><hr></blockquote><p>Your timeline is a little off.</p><p>Its should be:</p><p>In the beginning Guardians were happy... But the brawlers were unhappy because they couldnt do everything... then the nerfs came.</p><p> </p><p>There Ya go... fixed it 4 YA no $ charge.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:10 PM</span></p>

Gaige

02-15-2006, 01:10 AM

<div></div><div></div>You guys should look up the word delusional.<p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:36 PM</span></p>

Krooner

02-15-2006, 01:24 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>You guys should look up the word dillusional.<hr></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p>Its <em>delusional</em></p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://www.reference.com/search?q=delusional">http://www.reference.com/search?q=delusional</a></p><p> </p><p>THere you go Gaige. Once again no charge for the edjamacational post</p><p> </p>

mastersard

02-15-2006, 01:25 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>You guys should look up the word dillusional.<hr></blockquote><p>Look at your post count. How can you not claim personal responsibility for a large portion of LU13?</p><p>You pushed the snowball down the hill, you're responsible for the avalanche, chief.</p>

Gaige

02-15-2006, 01:35 AM

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>mastersardis wrote:<p>Look at your post count. <font color="#ffff00">How can you not claim personal responsibility for a large portion of LU13?</font></p><p>You pushed the snowball down the hill, you're responsible for the avalanche, chief.</p><hr></blockquote>My name isn't red and I don't work in San Diego, that's how.

Junaru

02-15-2006, 01:44 AM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>You guys should look up the word dillusional.<hr></blockquote><p>Look at your post count. How can you not claim personal responsibility for a large portion of LU13?</p><p>You pushed the snowball down the hill, you're responsible for the avalanche, chief.</p><hr></blockquote>If you feel the need to blame Gaige for the changes in LU13 thats fine but remember one thing. LU13 didn't kill your DPS, Nerf your aggro or break your class in any way. LU13 simply made all tanks, tank.Blame SOE for your lack of DPS and utility not LU13 or Gaige. Alot of your tend to point the finger to quickly for your class problems without really thinking about what is wrong and why.</span></div>

Krooner

02-15-2006, 01:58 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>You guys should look up the word dillusional.<hr></blockquote><p>Look at your post count. How can you not claim personal responsibility for a large portion of LU13?</p><p>You pushed the snowball down the hill, you're responsible for the avalanche, chief.</p><hr></blockquote>If you feel the need to blame Gaige for the changes in LU13 thats fine but remember one thing. LU13 didn't kill your DPS, Nerf your aggro or break your class in any way. LU13 simply made all tanks, tank.Blame SOE for your lack of DPS and utility not LU13 or Gaige. Alot of your tend to point the finger to quickly for your class problems without really thinking about what is wrong and why.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Junaru You have made some good post... but you have this one slightly wrong.</p><p>LU13 did tons of downgrades to the guardian class and nothing noticeable to other fighters. Its not that they made them better its that they made guardians worse. And No Im not talking about the buff stacking. I know that was never intended to work that way. Im talking about removing all the guardians secondary effects off of taunts and making the mana drain useless as well as several other changes. No I dont think Gaige was directly responsible for those changes.... but he sure didnt help matters any. The Devs went way too far with guardian changes off of LU13. WEather then want to come out and say it doesnt matter because they have slowly started giving back , be it ever so slowly, things that guardians need to take their place in the line of tanking. </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:58 PM</span></p>

Gaige

02-15-2006, 02:08 AM

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<p>guardians need to take their place in the line of tanking. </p><hr></blockquote>Guardians already have their place in the "line of tanking". Guardian issues, if any, revolve around dps and utility.

Briz

02-15-2006, 02:11 AM

I blame Gaige for everything.He even made my girlfriend and I break up. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you!<img src="http://tmmdesign.com/media/khan.jpg"><b><font size="7" color="#ff0000">GAIGE!!!!!!</font></b><div></div>

Krooner

02-15-2006, 02:14 AM

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<p>guardians need to take their place in the line of tanking. </p><hr></blockquote><strong>Guardians already have their place in the "line of tanking".</strong> Guardian issues, if any, revolve around dps and utility.<hr></blockquote><p>Thats YOUR opinion and not the prevelent opinion of many guardians. Tanking Roles are secured by</p><p>Skills, utility, DPS, player skill and others.</p><p>According to SOE they balanced tanking by redefining spells mitigation and avoidance. In reality all they did was nerf guardians to make other feel better about what they had. You cant balance fighters if you dont balance every aspect. </p><p> </p>

SkarlSpeedbu

02-15-2006, 02:15 AM

<div></div><p>I guess we can fight hyperbole with hyperbole. It was the<strong> guardians</strong>, that nerfed the guardians, their incessant bragging, constant details of "fighting nekkid" and big tales of taking on everything duo with a templar. It was the <strong>guardians</strong> that refused to let go of the idea that they should be the best fighters even though there were other classes that were fighters also. It was the <strong>old school EQ1 peeps</strong> that just refused and refused to think of this as a new game, instead of the old tired EQ1 that we all moved away from.</p><p>Fighter equality, or rough equality, was SOE's idea, or stupid idea, as you want to call it. It was not Gaige's idea. He just asked for what SOE said from Beta. It is so easy to place blame on one person, jeez people are so predictable, but it just AIN"T SO.</p><p>Hey, like or dislike Gaige for being a blowhard, know-it-all, favored child or whatever you want to call him. He has some good points, and some of his points that are out in left field, just like everybody else's ideas sometimes..../gasp even me!</p><p>He ain't a bad guy, you all are just blaming him unrealistically.</p><p>The only issue I have with Gaige, is he could be a bit more objective, and discuss where Monks are overpowered over the guardians. But I will let his own conscious be his guide. I play a 60 guard and very very soon to be 60 monk, both equally equiped in rare t6 and adept IIIs, and I KNOW what the differences are. But hey, I don't feel like become some group's demon on these boards, or at least not anymore of a demon than I am already.</p><p> </p>

Krooner

02-15-2006, 02:24 AM

<div>I never blamed Gaige for guardian woes. I said he didnt help pre13.</div><div>As for :</div><div> </div><div>Skarlspeedbump wrote:</div><div><p><strong>The only issue I have with Gaige, is he could be a bit more objective, and discuss where Monks are overpowered over the guardians</strong>. But I will let his own conscious be his guide. I play a 60 guard and very very soon to be 60 monk, both equally equiped in rare t6 and adept IIIs, and I KNOW what the differences are. But hey, I don't feel like become some group's demon on these boards, or at least not anymore of a demon than I am already.</p><p> </p><p>Hes pretty much done this concerning certain bralwer changes about to come out.</p><p>once again Im not laying blame anywhere specific. But some people have been errant accessories</p></div>

Gaige

02-15-2006, 02:27 AM

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<p>You cant balance fighters if you dont balance every aspect. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Which I'm fully aware of. Which is why I said guardians need some new utility and some dps adjustments.</p><p>Don't kid yourself though, in high end raid tanking (Pedestal of Sky) guardians are pretty much the only choice in my opinion.</p><p>Elsewhere throughout the game tanking is balanced though.</p><p>Guardians mostly miss the things they had that were amazingly broken:</p><p>Holding aggro through reactives and becoming unhittable due to defensive buffs.</p><p>Guardians still have the edge in HPs (although not by much) and they do have an edge in high end raid tanking (though also not by much, except for a few specific encounters).</p><p>You're blind if you do not believe that the tanking game is better post LU13. That or you were spoiled by the <em>broken</em> mechanics that were available prior to the combat changes.</p>

Krooner

02-15-2006, 02:36 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<p>You cant balance fighters if you dont balance every aspect. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Which I'm fully aware of. Which is why I said guardians need some new utility and some dps adjustments.</p><p>Don't kid yourself though, in high end raid tanking (Pedestal of Sky) guardians are pretty much the only choice in my opinion.</p><p>Elsewhere throughout the game tanking is balanced though.</p><p>Guardians mostly miss the things they had that were amazingly broken:</p><p>Holding aggro through reactives and becoming unhittable due to defensive buffs.</p><p>Guardians still have the edge in HPs (although not by much) and they do have an edge in high end raid tanking (though also not by much, except for a few specific encounters).</p><p>You're blind if you do not believe that the tanking game is better post LU13. That or you were spoiled by the <em>broken</em> mechanics that were available prior to the combat changes.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Good post till here:</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Guardians mostly miss the things they had that were amazingly broken:</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">Thats another opinion statement. What I missed on my guardian post LU13 was the ability to styfle casters so we could solo them... the ability to hunker down and drain a enemies power. We couldnt just harmtouch them or dare I say it.. Devistating fist them. We had to hunker down.. do a "rope a dope" and then come out swinging when they were winded. That was fine with me.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">Do I like the fact that other fighters are enjoying more tanking in game YUP sure do. Are things better post LU13 as far as taking goes.. for other classes it is.</font></p><p>Its plain and simple logic.</p><p>If all fighters are equal ot nearly equal to guardians in tanking yet ahead of them in everything else. then things are not equal.</p><p>Even if whats needed is a tweek of DPS or a few utility until those are in place then things are NOT equal.</p><p> </p>

Junaru

02-15-2006, 03:11 AM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<p>You cant balance fighters if you dont balance every aspect. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Which I'm fully aware of. Which is why I said guardians need some new utility and some dps adjustments.</p><p>Don't kid yourself though, in high end raid tanking (Pedestal of Sky) guardians are pretty much the only choice in my opinion.</p><p>Elsewhere throughout the game tanking is balanced though.</p><p>Guardians mostly miss the things they had that were amazingly broken:</p><p>Holding aggro through reactives and becoming unhittable due to defensive buffs.</p><p>Guardians still have the edge in HPs (although not by much) and they do have an edge in high end raid tanking (though also not by much, except for a few specific encounters).</p><p>You're blind if you do not believe that the tanking game is better post LU13. That or you were spoiled by the <em>broken</em> mechanics that were available prior to the combat changes.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Good post till here:</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Guardians mostly miss the things they had that were amazingly broken:</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">Thats another opinion statement. What I missed on my guardian post LU13 was the ability to styfle casters so we could solo them... the ability to hunker down and drain a enemies power. We couldnt just harmtouch them or dare I say it.. Devistating fist them. We had to hunker down.. do a "rope a dope" and then come out swinging when they were winded. That was fine with me.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">Do I like the fact that other fighters are enjoying more tanking in game YUP sure do. Are things better post LU13 as far as taking goes.. for other classes it is.</font></p><p>Its plain and simple logic.</p><p>If all fighters are equal ot nearly equal to guardians in tanking yet ahead of them in everything else. then things are not equal.</p><p>Even if whats needed is a tweek of DPS or a few utility until those are in place then things are NOT equal.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>While Gaige, myself along with alot of other Brawlers agree with you on this, saying Brawler (mainly Monks IE: Gaige) are the reason for Guardians lack of DPS and utility is so wrong it's not even funny. Other fighters just asked to do what they were meant to do, tank. I'm sorry Guardians didn't get the love in LU13 but at the same time pre-LU13 wasn't fair to the other fighter classes in game and changes needed to be made. Maybe SOE took it too far with Guardians but again other fighters didn't ask for that. They asked to be able to tank.I'd love to see Guardians get a DPS boost. I think some Guardians just want too much at the same time.<span></span></span></div>

Krooner

02-15-2006, 03:19 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><span><blockquote> </blockquote></span></blockquote><blockquote><p><span>Junaru wrote:</span></p><p><span> </p><div><font color="#ffff00">While Gaige, myself along with alot of other Brawlers agree with you on this, saying Brawler (mainly Monks IE: Gaige)</font> are the reason for Guardians lack of DPS and utility is so wrong it's not even funny. <font color="#66ff00">Other fighters just asked to do what they were meant to do, tank</font>. I'm sorry Guardians didn't get the love in LU13 but at the same time pre-LU13 wasn't fair to the other fighter classes in game and changes needed to be made. <font color="#ff0000">Maybe SOE took it too far with Guardians</font> but again other fighters didn't ask for that. They asked to be able to tank.I'd love to see Guardians get a DPS boost. I think some Guardians just want too much at the same time.<span></span></div></span><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ffff00">You and gaige no.. But there were plenty of poeple who did cry for a guardian nerf... go to the archives and see for yourself.</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">I have aboslutly no problem with that. BUT its my contention that they didnt really do anything FOR the other classes its that they TOOK from guardians. Once again no not buff stacking its all the other stuff. The cut to avoidance the cut to Mit the cut to taunt effects and still others. They didnt help the other classes by boosting them they just gutted guardians.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0033">YEP they sure did.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0033"></font> </p><p><font color="#ffffff">Sorry for the color sceaming but I was in a hurry.</font></p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:20 PM</span></p>

Chronicle

02-15-2006, 04:11 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>Don't kid yourself though, in high end raid tanking (Pedestal of Sky) guardians are pretty much the only choice in my opinion.</p></blockquote><p></p><hr></blockquote><blockquote dir="ltr"><p><font color="#ffcc00">Being 'the only choice' in high end raid taking is meaningless to the vast majority of guardians. Most of us just want to be able to do our job in a group situation and be able to solo halfway decently.</font></p><p><font color="#ffcc00">Maybe if I was all loaded up with Masters and Fabled I could.. but the fact of the matter is your average guardian wearing your average gear can't do their job in an average group. I play with the same group of people every night. Every one of them is lower level than me except for the Inquisitor. Nearly every fight I lose aggro to someone inspite if spamming CA's and using my taunts every time they pop. Being able to take a beating is pointless when all the mobs are hitting someone else.</font></p><p><font color="#ffcc00">And we don't get any cool stuff to make up for anything. We can't heal, FD, ward, evac or anything else neat like that.</font></p><p><font color="#ffcc00"></font> </p><p><font color="#ffcc00">The *real* test of a class' usefulness is this - If your group already has one would you actually want another? Monk, heck ya! Guardian, probably not...</font></p></blockquote>

Gaige

02-15-2006, 04:20 AM

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Chronicle wrote:<p><font color="#ffcc00">The *real* test of a class' usefulness is this - If your group already has one would you actually want another? Monk, heck ya! Guardian, probably not...</font></p><hr></blockquote>Then all healers aren't useful, neither are most casters or the bards. Two of any of those (same class) is overkill.

mastersard

02-15-2006, 04:22 AM

<div></div><p>Bottom line: Without the non-guardian fighter community's outpouring of "equal tank" and requests for Guardians to be brought down to other fighter's level, no LU13 would have happened.</p><p>If Guardians are responsible for Guardians getting nerfed, based on the bragging posts and tanking nekked posts, as it was stated above, then what will Brawlers say when the nerf bat swings their way? Less than a week ago, the very person we blame for our demise was bragging about soloing Named Heroics a level or 2 above him(60+).</p><p>That is the balance he wanted, which is NOT true balance. Equal tanks, plus all the other stuff. </p><p>Now the rest of the fighter community wants the stuff you've got. Hell, spread it out more evenly. We want DPS, safe fall, invis, stuns, knockdowns, stifles, mez, heal, feighn death, group feighn death, 8k hits, self haste, group haste. I'll even trade my extra taunts(resisted) and my ToS(broken shields) and my broken Intercede/Protect (Dead Guardian).</p>

Crim001

02-15-2006, 04:53 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><p>I guess we can fight hyperbole with hyperbole. It was the<strong> guardians</strong>, that nerfed the guardians, their incessant bragging, constant details of "fighting nekkid" and big tales of taking on everything duo with a templar. It was the <strong>guardians</strong> that refused to let go of the idea that they should be the best fighters even though there were other classes that were fighters also. It was the <strong>old school EQ1 peeps</strong> that just refused and refused to think of this as a new game, instead of the old tired EQ1 that we all moved away from.</p><p>Fighter equality, or rough equality, was SOE's idea, or stupid idea, as you want to call it. It was not Gaige's idea. He just asked for what SOE said from Beta. It is so easy to place blame on one person, jeez people are so predictable, but it just AIN"T SO.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Ok, then lets fight hyperbole with Gaige mentality. I don't know any guards that have a red name or work in San Diego.</p><p>If bragging nerfed guards, then shouldn't those posts on the monk and bruiser forums telling of the EPICS and heroics they've taken down be a reason for nerf too? Yes, they will claim, it's only because I had uber gear and spells, then shouldn't a guard with uber gear and spells be able to do the same thing? Also, the EQ 1 peeps didn't do anything as far as I'm concerned.....if so, then what was it? If they refused to think of this as a new game, then they shouldn't be completely wrong since this is just a semi-extension of EQ 1, just changed around a bit.</p><p>And I'm pretty sure we all know that Gaige doesn't work at SoE. But he sure as hell didn't try to soften the blow we got from the nerf bat until it was too late. So....think about it....SoE could have just fixed the buff stacking issues and made everyone happy.....or they could nerf guards into being obselete in a great portion of the game to appease the fanbois...</p><p>Let the flames and nitpicking begin....</p>

Crim001

02-15-2006, 07:37 AM

LokiHellsson

02-15-2006, 09:39 AM

I've been running a Bruiser. It's definitely fun.But I forget, at what level do Bruisers and Monks get the ability to root up to 8 Epic mobs and slow their attack speed and dps by 20%?And which level do Brawlers get to absorb all the damage for their group with a decent chance to proc a "ward" that nullifies that damage?

Salgo

02-15-2006, 09:58 AM

<div></div><div><font size="2"></font><hr></div><div><font size="2">LokiHelsson wrote:But I forget, at what level do Bruisers and Monks get the ability to root up to 8 Epic mobs and slow their attack speed and dps by 20%?And which level do Brawlers get to absorb all the damage for their group with a decent chance to proc a "ward" that nullifies that damage?</font></div><div><hr></div><p>The same level we Guards get our Mez spells and heals I think. :smileyvery-happy: Oh and your dps lol</p><p> </p>

Sir_Halbarad

02-15-2006, 03:32 PM

<div></div><span>Plant and Guardian Sphere are nice, but very situational (named/raid tanking), skills.And don't make up for the fear, stun, stifle etc CA's Bruisers have combined with all the other nifty toys.The Guardian situation at the moment is:+ We tank Raid Content as well as other Fighter classes. Maybe with a slight advantage. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, SOE.+ We tank Group Content much worse than other Figher classes. Paladins, both Brawler classes, Zerkers just make far superior Group Tanks.+ We <strike>solo</strike>.Now that we have seen that all Fighters can tank equally well, it is time for SOE to reevaluate Guards. That we need help is undisputed - heck, even Gaige agrees <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We lack in dps and utility OR tanking advantage.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sir_Halbarad on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:33 AM</span></p>

Rah

02-15-2006, 09:00 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<span><div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>You guys should look up the word dillusional.<hr></blockquote><p>Look at your post count. How can you not claim personal responsibility for a large portion of LU13?</p><p>You pushed the snowball down the hill, you're responsible for the avalanche, chief.</p><hr></blockquote><div>If you feel the need to blame Gaige for the changes in LU13 thats fine but remember one thing. LU13 didn't kill your DPS, Nerf your aggro or break your class in any way. LU13 simply made all tanks, tank.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66ff00">LU20 will not break your class in any way shape or form it will just adjust your overpowered DPS to mine since you tank as well as I do anyway, even then i suspect tht your DPS will still be overpowered. All fighters can tank as well then all fighters should be able to DPS as well the sliding scale being equal to the tanking advantage one class has over another. I really have hopes that its effect will be as tramatic for your class as the guttin of my class via LU13 was for me. HP, mitigattion and avoidance slid to provide balance now slide the DPS to make it equal for fighters.</font></div><div><font color="#66ff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#66ff00">I play a bruiser and a guardian and I am fully aware of how big the gap is between the two, if you dont believe me just go into any zone that drops masters on random mobs or names that you can MEZ/FD through and look at the number of twink brawlers that are running amok,soling heroic content and farming what they get. Posting about soloing named heroics and then backpedaling when its brought to this forums attention. Smacks of the Guardians tanking Naked comment mentioned earlier doesnt it? </font></div><font color="#66ff00"></font></span></blockquote><blockquote><p><span><font color="#66ff00">I can and do blame Gaige for direction this game went in how the mechanics of tanking work. Gaige intent was not to balance anything it was to be able to tank as well as the guardians that were meant to do nothing but tank, no other bells and whitles just tank. Gaige was the rally point for the tank parity of LU13 and that is why he is often berated. He was picked up by a hardcore raiding guild from EQ1 that was present and had in my view a significant impact on how the game is developed from beta to were we stand now. The tactics they used, the flaws in the games buff stacking generated the only guardians should be selected as a tank and Gaige declared Jihad! </font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00">This is the only class forum that all other fighter classes reguarly haunt with one thing in mind, make sure the Guradians in now way mention anything that will remotley prove that the tanking issue is in fact not resolved. Just mention guardian specific gear or anything that has to do with taunt generation not being equal and watch what the reaction is. </font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00">Now we find ourselves in the most ancient of EQ arguments. How should the game be designed, its focus on the "I eat your raid content two weeks after realease" (TM FoH) or the more casual group that really feel the impact more? </font></span><span><font color="#66ff00">I am of the opinion that what I post is in no way equally considered over the raid eating classes, the thing is that we have Guardians here that are raiding the same content with less frequency and probably more challenging for them making statements to the contrary, I wont name them but we all know who they are. </font></span><span><font color="#66ff00"></font>Blame SOE for your lack of DPS and utility not LU13 or Gaige. Alot of your tend to point the finger to quickly for your class problems without really thinking about what is wrong and why.</span></p><span></span></blockquote><blockquote><span><p><font color="#66ff00">Finger pointing started by other classes coming here first if it is used as a method to make valid points that are currently a problem for our class then dont read them, if you decide to then dont categorize them as finger pointing. The method of change that has to date got some repsonse from the developers was established by other fighters not guardians, dont get [Removed for Content] if its used in reverse. </font></p><p></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Rahge</p>

Junaru

02-15-2006, 10:00 PM

Once again you guys are rolling Monks and Brusiers into the same class. The thread posted on the Brusier forum isn't what Monks can do. Again Mez and Fear let a Brusier solo those mobs. Monks have neither. As for Gaige soloing heroics, have you seen his gear? He has the highest hps of any mnk I have seen. How can you roll your average Monk in with one of the best geared Monk in game? I have more Master I then any Monk I know. 85%+ of my usable CA's are Master I and I have only soloed a blue herloic once and that was using FD to split them. It took all my power and health along with my heal to do it. Don't fool yourselves into thinking Monks go around soloing herloic mobs all day long."<span><font color="#66ff00">LU20 will not break your class in any way shape or form it will just adjust your overpowered DPS to mine since you tank as well as I do anyway, even then i suspect tht your DPS will still be overpowered. All fighters can tank as well then all fighters should be able to DPS as well the sliding scale being equal to the tanking advantage one class has over another. I really have hopes that its effect will be as tramatic for your class as the guttin of my class via LU13 was for me. HP, mitigattion and avoidance slid to provide balance now slide the DPS to make it equal for fighters."<font color="#ffffff">This isn't completely true. My Monk can tank solo mobs as well and better then a Guardian. But for group mobs I don't hold a candle to your ability to lock down all the mobs. I simple can NOT have an AoE class in my group if I'm MT. By the time I target and gain enough aggro on each mob they would be dead. So in an sense Monks do tank as well but not fo every situation.Also my DPS is the reason I can hold aggro. If Monks didn't have DPS they wouldn't be able to tank solo mobs as well either. So this IS the reason Monks have such a high DPS."</font></font></span><span><font color="#66ff00">I play a bruiser and a guardian and I am fully aware of how big the gap is between the two, if you dont believe me just go into any zone that drops masters on random mobs or names that you can MEZ/FD through and look at the number of twink brawlers that are running amok,soling heroic content and farming what they get. Posting about soloing named heroics and then backpedaling when its brought to this forums attention. Smacks of the Guardians tanking Naked comment mentioned earlier doesnt it?"<font color="#ffffff">Again Monks aren't Brusiers (How many times does this need to be repeated?) so if someone makes a statement that a Monk does this and Monks can do that, please make sure you understand the difference between the two classes. I doubt you want me going around telling everyone Guardians do killer DPS against group mobs with their AoE attacks (IE: Zerks)."</font></font></span><span><font color="#66ff00">I can and do blame Gaige for direction this game went in how the mechanics of tanking work. Gaige intent was not to balance anything it was to be able to tank as well as the guardians that were meant to do nothing but tank, no other bells and whitles just tank. Gaige was the rally point for the tank parity of LU13 and that is why he is often berated. He was picked up by a hardcore raiding guild from EQ1 that was present and had in my view a significant impact on how the game is developed from beta to were we stand now. The tactics they used, the flaws in the games buff stacking generated the only guardians should be selected as a tank and Gaige declared Jihad! "<font color="#ffffff">Well after reading that it sounds more like your have bigger problems then just EQ2 balancing. Have you taken your meds today? <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Just kidding.I think your blame your problems on someone else. Have you thought about the fact that IF Guardians had stepped up to the plate and said "Hey it's not really fair that we tank better then anyone else and need to help other fighters out" that maybe you would have had more control and say into what changes were made? Or is it just easier to blame someone else for everything?"</font></font></span><span><font color="#66ff00">Finger pointing started by other classes coming here first if it is used as a method to make valid points that are currently a problem for our class then dont read them, if you decide to then dont categorize them as finger pointing. The method of change that has to date got some repsonse from the developers was established by other fighters not guardians, dont get [Removed for Content] if its used in reverse. "<font color="#ffffff">No one came here blaming Guardians for other fighters lack of tanking ability. They simply stated the truth, that Guardians at the time tanking better then any other fighter class and it was unfair for people who picked another fighters thinking they would be able to tank. We didn't claim it was Guardians fault we couldn't tank. You on the other hand are firmly blaming other classes.I find it odd that there are Monks here saying "Ok how do we fix Guardians." yet before LU13 there weren't any Guardians saying "How do we help other fighters". And I still believe if you were willing to except the changes and help other fighters that you wouldn't be in this situation right now. If you had offer up help and give REAL options to help other fighters maybe SOE wouldn't have hit Guardians as bad. Maybe they would have understood the game as a Guardian a little better.Sometimes helping other classes helps you.</font></font></span><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"></font></font></span><div></div>

Gaige

02-15-2006, 10:34 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Rahge wrote:<p><span><font color="#66ff00">Finger pointing started by other classes coming here first if it is used as a method to make valid points that are currently a problem for our class then dont read them, if you decide to then dont categorize them as finger pointing.</font></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Do you want to know where the whole thing started? It started in the guardian envy thread in this forum. A thread started by a guardian making fun of the other fighters for wanting to tank. Bragging about how superior guardians were and always would be and how if anyone wanted to tank they'd do the intelligent thing and "roll a guardian".</p><p>You guys have no one but yourselves to blame.</p><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p>

mastersard

02-15-2006, 10:47 PM

<div></div><p>More selective quotes? You're all smoke and mirrors. Why dont you try and refute the very valid points he made in that post? Oh, i know...</p><p> </p><p>Because you cant.</p>

Gaige

02-15-2006, 10:50 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>More selective quotes? You're all smoke and mirrors. Why dont you try and refute the very valid points he made in that post? Oh, i know...</p><hr></blockquote>Its been done by me and others since release. This subject has bene rehashed over and over and has continued for the last 7 LU's in a row. I grow tired of repeating myself.

mastersard

02-15-2006, 11:00 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>More selective quotes? You're all smoke and mirrors. Why dont you try and refute the very valid points he made in that post? Oh, i know...</p><hr></blockquote>Its been done by me and others since release. This subject has bene rehashed over and over and has continued for the last 7 LU's in a row. I grow tired of repeating myself.<hr></blockquote>Then go away. Seems simple to me.

SkarlSpeedbu

02-15-2006, 11:04 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crim001 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><p>I guess we can fight hyperbole with hyperbole. It was the<strong> guardians</strong>, that nerfed the guardians, their incessant bragging, constant details of "fighting nekkid" and big tales of taking on everything duo with a templar. It was the <strong>guardians</strong> that refused to let go of the idea that they should be the best fighters even though there were other classes that were fighters also. It was the <strong>old school EQ1 peeps</strong> that just refused and refused to think of this as a new game, instead of the old tired EQ1 that we all moved away from.</p><p>Fighter equality, or rough equality, was SOE's idea, or stupid idea, as you want to call it. It was not Gaige's idea. He just asked for what SOE said from Beta. It is so easy to place blame on one person, jeez people are so predictable, but it just AIN"T SO.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Ok, then lets fight hyperbole with Gaige mentality. I don't know any guards that have a red name or work in San Diego.</p><p>If bragging nerfed guards, then shouldn't those posts on the monk and bruiser forums telling of the EPICS and heroics they've taken down be a reason for nerf too? Yes, they will claim, it's only because I had uber gear and spells, then shouldn't a guard with uber gear and spells be able to do the same thing? Also, the EQ 1 peeps didn't do anything as far as I'm concerned.....if so, then what was it? If they refused to think of this as a new game, then they shouldn't be completely wrong since this is just a semi-extension of EQ 1, just changed around a bit.</p><p>And I'm pretty sure we all know that Gaige doesn't work at SoE. But he sure as hell didn't try to soften the blow we got from the nerf bat until it was too late. So....think about it....SoE could have just fixed the buff stacking issues and made everyone happy.....or they could nerf guards into being obselete in a great portion of the game to appease the fanbois...</p><p>Let the flames and nitpicking begin....</p><hr></blockquote>As a person being as objective as possible, I cannot ague with your points either <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If we establish that these generalizations have any facts behind them, and some would argue, that all stereotypes and generalizations are based on at least a small part of a fact or set of facts.

SkarlSpeedbu

02-15-2006, 11:10 PM

Junaru

02-15-2006, 11:11 PM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>More selective quotes? You're all smoke and mirrors. Why dont you try and refute the very valid points he made in that post? Oh, i know...</p><hr></blockquote>Its been done by me and others since release. This subject has bene rehashed over and over and has continued for the last 7 LU's in a row. I grow tired of repeating myself.<hr></blockquote>Then go away. Seems simple to me.<hr></blockquote>You do realise that Gaige agrees that Guardians need "some" help right? So you want someone who is on your side about needing "some" help to leave. Someone who everyone seems to think has his hand on the strings of SOE dev team puppet team. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>That makes sense to me. <span>:smileysad:</span></span></div>

SkarlSpeedbu

02-15-2006, 11:18 PM

<div></div>I agree. We should be reciting the message in unity...."we need more dps" over and over, in unity. Or at least in unity take on a specific goal "We need damage taken off our tower of stone line." Heck I would be hard pressed to talk with any monk that would not agree, "hey that is F'd up." But we won't, because I feel some guards want to leave it up to the devs /cringe to think up some new ability for us. I say we ask for more DPS. But we will continue to get the "we should be superior tank" threads every week, forever.

Rah

02-15-2006, 11:19 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Junaru wrote:Once again you guys are rolling Monks and Brusiers into the same class. The thread posted on the Brusier forum isn't what Monks can do. Again Mez and Fear let a Brusier solo those mobs. Monks have neither. As for Gaige soloing heroics, have you seen his gear? He has the highest hps of any mnk I have seen. How can you roll your average Monk in with one of the best geared Monk in game? I have more Master I then any Monk I know. 85%+ of my usable CA's are Master I and I have only soloed a blue herloic once and that was using FD to split them. It took all my power and health along with my heal to do it. Don't fool yourselves into thinking Monks go around soloing herloic mobs all day long."<span><font color="#66ff00">LU20 will not break your class in any way shape or form it will just adjust your overpowered DPS to mine since you tank as well as I do anyway, even then i suspect tht your DPS will still be overpowered. All fighters can tank as well then all fighters should be able to DPS as well the sliding scale being equal to the tanking advantage one class has over another. I really have hopes that its effect will be as tramatic for your class as the guttin of my class via LU13 was for me. HP, mitigattion and avoidance slid to provide balance now slide the DPS to make it equal for fighters."<font color="#ffffff">This isn't completely true. My Monk can tank solo mobs as well and better then a Guardian. But for group mobs I don't hold a candle to your ability to lock down all the mobs. I simple can NOT have an AoE class in my group if I'm MT. By the time I target and gain enough aggro on each mob they would be dead. So in an sense Monks do tank as well but not fo every situation.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">That is a fuction of what the group chooses to do when you tank not a function of if you can tank a group of mobs and the players you are grouped with are not working with you PERIOD Therefore it is completley true. You said it twice let me reiterate it in case anyone missed it <font color="#ffff00">"My Monk can tank solo mobs as well and better then a Guardian"</font><font color="#ffffff"> <font color="#ff0000">and</font> </font></font></font></font><font color="#ffff00">"Monks do tank as well ".</font></span></p><span><font color="#ffff00"></font></span><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><p>Also my DPS is the reason I can hold aggro. If Monks didn't have DPS they wouldn't be able to tank solo mobs as well either. So this IS the reason Monks have such a high DPS.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">So if the crux of the problem is DPS as your hate generation then lets lower all DPS to a resonable damage gap and add to those same nerfed DPS skills a threat number that will still allow you to LOCK single target aggro by threat alone shall we? Once we get that nailed down then we can run some auto attack DPS in like gear and make sure that there isnt any amazing GAP there either.</font>"</span><span><font color="#66ff00">I play a bruiser and a guardian and I am fully aware of how big the gap is between the two, if you dont believe me just go into any zone that drops masters on random mobs or names that you can MEZ/FD through and look at the number of twink brawlers that are running amok,soling heroic content and farming what they get. Posting about soloing named heroics and then backpedaling when its brought to this forums attention. Smacks of the Guardians tanking Naked comment mentioned earlier doesnt it?"<font color="#ffffff">Again Monks aren't Brusiers (How many times does this need to be repeated?) so if someone makes a statement that a Monk does this and Monks can do that, please make sure you understand the difference between the two classes. I doubt you want me going around telling everyone Guardians do killer DPS against group mobs with their AoE attacks (IE: Zerks).</font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">And yet the same issue applies to monks as it does to brawlers in the terms we are discussing. Dont see alot of twink Plate classes soloing heroic content, sorry that domain is the BRAWLER classes alone. As far as going around telling people this or that, I dont, I post it here in my class forum to address my class issues. If you feel the need to let every player around you know about what I said so be it. </font>"</font></font></span><span><font color="#66ff00">I can and do blame Gaige for direction this game went in how the mechanics of tanking work. Gaige intent was not to balance anything it was to be able to tank as well as the guardians that were meant to do nothing but tank, no other bells and whitles just tank. Gaige was the rally point for the tank parity of LU13 and that is why he is often berated. He was picked up by a hardcore raiding guild from EQ1 that was present and had in my view a significant impact on how the game is developed from beta to were we stand now. The tactics they used, the flaws in the games buff stacking generated the only guardians should be selected as a tank and Gaige declared Jihad! "<font color="#ffffff">Well after reading that it sounds more like your have bigger problems then just EQ2 balancing. Have you taken your meds today? <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Just kidding.I think your blame your problems on someone else. Have you thought about the fact that IF Guardians had stepped up to the plate and said "Hey it's not really fair that we tank better then anyone else and need to help other fighters out" that maybe you would have had more control and say into what changes were made? Or is it just easier to blame someone else for everything?</font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Or is it just easier for you to ignorre the possibility that what i say has some truth to it. Peronal attacks on my mental balance are a great way to respond to what was an honest answer to your post. Thanks for your concern. I am fine.</font>"</font></font></span><span><font color="#66ff00">Finger pointing started by other classes coming here first if it is used as a method to make valid points that are currently a problem for our class then dont read them, if you decide to then dont categorize them as finger pointing. The method of change that has to date got some repsonse from the developers was established by other fighters not guardians, dont get [Removed for Content] if its used in reverse. "<font color="#ffffff">No one came here blaming Guardians for other fighters lack of tanking ability. They simply stated the truth, that Guardians at the time tanking better then any other fighter class and it was unfair for people who picked another fighters thinking they would be able to tank. We didn't claim it was Guardians fault we couldn't tank. You on the other hand are firmly blaming other classes.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Thats right your DPS is overpowered. </font>I find it odd that there are Monks here saying "Ok how do we fix Guardians." yet before LU13 there weren't any Guardians saying "How do we help other fighters". And I still believe if you were willing to except the changes and help other fighters that you wouldn't be in this situation right now. If you had offer up help and give REAL options to help other fighters maybe SOE wouldn't have hit Guardians as bad. Maybe they would have understood the game as a Guardian a little better.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ff0000">Your the one generalizing here, I have never posted in a forum about a class that I ahvent played. While you and many others (although not all) often do. If you scroll back youll notice that the poster was a guardian who is now playing a monk and in my case a guardian who plays a bruiser. What level is your guardian again?</font></span></p><span><font color="#ff0000"></font></span><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><p>Sometimes helping other classes helps you.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Thanks for the charity, so what do you think of my DPS reduction and threat increase to solve the problem?</font></span><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"></font></font></span></p></font></font></font></font><hr>Rahge</blockquote><p>Message Edited by Rahge on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:35 AM</span></p>

Wasuna

02-15-2006, 11:30 PM

<div></div><p>Tanking naked we due to the way buffs stacked before LU13. This had nothing to do with Guardians because hey.. we were naked so it could have been ANYBODY. We were just the hands down best tank in the game DUE TO BUFF STACKING and therefore we were always the ones tanking and tried it out. I believe it was Noah that first brought this to the forum.</p><p>I have no problem with the buff stacking being adjusted but I have major problems with them making all other fighters equal tanks and making me 10% of what all of them are when I'm not tanking.</p>

SkarlSpeedbu

02-15-2006, 11:33 PM

<div><font color="#ff0000">I am fine now you and the person your defending can send e-mails to each other about when your going to see Broke Back mountain, cant wait for the reviews!</font></div><p><font color="#ff0000"></font> </p><p><font color="#ffffff">Rahge, I am embarrassed for you, for posting this. You are getting your feelings too involved in this bro, take a breather from the thread. As a Psychologist, and no I don't play one on TV, obsessing that one person is the culprit here is not sound logic.</font></p><p>I am sure you have guardian's interest in your heart, but this wont help us as guardians at all.</p><div></div>

Rah

02-15-2006, 11:35 PM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Your right had nothing to do with the topic my apologies, kind like asking if I am on my meds right.</p><p> </p><p>Rahge</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Rahge on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:37 AM</span></p>

SkarlSpeedbu

02-15-2006, 11:37 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<div></div><p>Tanking naked we due to the way buffs stacked before LU13. This had nothing to do with Guardians because hey.. we were naked so it could have been ANYBODY. We were just the hands down best tank in the game DUE TO BUFF STACKING and therefore we were always the ones tanking and tried it out. I believe it was Noah that first brought this to the forum.</p><p>I have no problem with the buff stacking being adjusted but I have major problems with them making all other fighters equal tanks and making me 10% of what all of them are when I'm not tanking.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Gotcha, so when the monks are making similar claims, we can all just rest assured that they are just the best tanks in the game. No problem. "tanking better than plate tanks in our Pajamas since LU-13" I may put that on my monk's character description heh.</p><p>Eh, I guess it is your point of view I guess. But lets take a devs point of view reading it. What would you think as a dev if you read it? </p>

Junaru

02-15-2006, 11:53 PM

<p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">That is a fuction of what the group chooses to do when you tank not a function of if you can tank a group of mobs and the players you are grouped with are not working with you PERIOD Therefore it is completley true. You said it twice let me reiterate it in case anyone missed it <font color="#ffff00">"My Monk can tank solo mobs as well and better then a Guardian"</font><font color="#ffffff"> <font color="#ff0000">and</font> </font></font></font></font><font color="#ffff00">"Monks do tank as well ".</font></span></p><p>I'm not saying the group should adapt to having a Monk as a Tank. I'm saying that we don't tank the same. If you really believe a Monk can tank group mobs better then a Guardian you are crazy. Give that a good percent of mobs come in groups it's pretty easy to see that Guardians tank better as a whole. Let me rephraze that to be less finger pointing, Warriors tank as a whole better then Brawlers.</p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">So if the crux of the problem is DPS as your hate generation then lets lower all DPS to a resonable damage gap and add to those same nerfed DPS skills a threat number that will still allow you to LOCK single target aggro by threat alone shall we? Once we get that nailed down then we can run some auto attack DPS in like gear and make sure that there isnt any amazing GAP there either.</font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">You think I'm going to worry about getting my DPS knocked down? You want that, sure. Not realy sure how that helps a Guardian solo but what the hay you really don't seem to care about that. I'm pretty sure most Guardians want to be able to solo or have more utility but like you said the answer to all Guardians problems is to knock the DPS of Monks down.</font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">And yet the same issue applies to monks as it does to brawlers in the terms we are discussing. Dont see alot of twink Plate classes soloing heroic content, sorry that domain is the BRAWLER classes alone. As far as going around telling people this or that, I dont, I post it here in my class forum to address my class issues. If you feel the need to let every player around you know about what I said so be it.</font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">No it doesn't. You have a Brusier so you know understand why and how they are able to solo those mobs. I'm a Monk and I know how. Without Fear and Mez it CAN NOT be done. Brusiers will stun a named mob and spam their CA's then mez the mob. Wait for their CA's to come back then stun and smap their CA's then fear the mob. Repeat till dead. Now tell me how a Monk could do that? And for the record I see zerks soloing heroic mobs all the time and Pally's also.</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Or is it just easier for you to ignorre the possibility that what i say has some truth to it.</font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">The truth? What that Gaige and other Monks killed the Guardian class? If you believe that then I'm not going to try and change your mind.</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Peronal attacks on my mental balance are a great way to respond to what was an honest answer to your post. Thanks for your concern. I am fine now you and the person your defending can send e-mails to each other about when your going to see Broke Back mountain, cant wait for the reviews!</font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">I guess smilies and the words just kidding don't show up on your screen. If thats the case there is no sense in saying I'm sorry cause I doubt that will show up either.</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Thats right your DPS is overpowered.<font color="#ffffff">WRONG. Again you just don't see the real problem. My DPS isn't overpowering, Guardian DPS is lacking. But this is coming from a guy who thinking nerfing the Monk DPS is the way to fix Guardians.</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Your the one generalizing here, I have never posted in a forum about a class that I ahvent played. While you and many others (although not all) often do. If you scroll back youll notice that the poster was a guardian who is now playing a monk and in my case a guardian who plays a bruiser. What level is your guardian again?</font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">I don't play a Guardian. But I'm not sure what is scarier. The fact that a Monk knows more about the problems of your class or the fact that you leveled up a Guardian and are clueless to their problems.</font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Thanks for the charity,</font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p>I'm not here for you and it's not charity. Unlike you I'm here because I think it's unfair that Guardians can't solo well. But hey each time I post and get people like you making me explain myself all the time I wonder if I should bother.<span></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">so what do you think of my DPS reduction and threat increase to solve the problem?</font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">No but unlike you I have given ideas as to how to fix the Guardian class. Maybe if you did a search on the guardian board you would know that I have from day one been giving suggestions and talking to other Guardians on the best ways to increase your DPS without making you overpowering and a target of another nerf.</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p><div></div>

Wasuna

02-16-2006, 12:01 AM

<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<div></div><p>Tanking naked we due to the way buffs stacked before LU13. This had nothing to do with Guardians because hey.. we were naked so it could have been ANYBODY. We were just the hands down best tank in the game DUE TO BUFF STACKING and therefore we were always the ones tanking and tried it out. I believe it was Noah that first brought this to the forum.</p><p>I have no problem with the buff stacking being adjusted but I have major problems with them making all other fighters equal tanks and making me 10% of what all of them are when I'm not tanking.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Gotcha, so when the monks are making similar claims, we can all just rest assured that they are just the best tanks in the game. No problem. "tanking better than plate tanks in our Pajamas since LU-13" I may put that on my monk's character description heh.</p><p>Eh, I guess it is your point of view I guess. But lets take a devs point of view reading it. What would you think as a dev if you read it? </p><hr></blockquote><p>The difference is that Guardians tanked naked is speical arranged groups for the most effective buff strategy possible. Once all those buffs got to Adept 3 and Master level they took over the game.</p><p>The brawlers are now posting about soling things that show their utility, DPS and tanking ability. They only have their own resources that allow them to do these feats.</p><p>A Developer can look at it however they want to look at it. In the end it is their job to ensure that they understand the cause and effect of what allowed people to tank naked and they did. I assume they investigated and buff stacking and specifically the way defense worked was modified in LU13. Dev's looked at it and figured it out no mater what was posted here.</p>

Wasuna

02-16-2006, 12:08 AM

<div></div>Also, as much as I hate it and hate violence, Sun Tzu is truth for humans. Lao Tzu is what I wish we all were. In the end, humans are animals and our wants, desires and instincts will always overcome our intelect in a few and that is enough to create discord and conflict. Our intelect has to understand that and prepare for the inevietable. It's a curse that can not be cured. Those that have no desire for violance are the people that will have it broght down upon them. It's shown all throuh history and history is a foggy window that shows us our future.

SkarlSpeedbu

02-16-2006, 12:19 AM

<div>Wasuna wrote....</div><div> </div><div>A Developer can look at it however they want to look at it. In the end it is their job to ensure that they understand the cause and effect of what allowed people to tank naked and they did. I assume they investigated and buff stacking and specifically the way defense worked was modified in LU13. Dev's looked at it and figured it out no mater what was posted here.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>This is a good point. How much do they really know about the game? How many really play regularly? and how many for example have played 3 or more classes to 60? or obtained their first prismatics? This is our hobby, this is their job. If they see some of the stuff in here, and say for example, they really aren't as skilled as many of the peeps that post in here, do you think that is why when they make changes that they actually go too far or break other things in the process? Are they the rabid fans that try to understand the every utter nuance of the game that we are? Maybe the dev saw a tanking nakid comment, just for example and came to a faulty conclusion. Heck, as the old saying goes, a cobbler's shoes are always worn out, and a mechanic's truck is always broke down <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway, I'm sure all this info is super confidential. But, /cough they sure do like using raiding guilds to test things /cough. Which leads us down the primrose path of protecting one's position in a company, when a 22 year old kid flipping burgers may have a better grasp of in game content than a master degree heh.</div><div> </div><div>Jeez, if they paid me to play, I would have every dang toon to 60, and probably would need a good sun tan LOL.</div>

SkarlSpeedbu

02-16-2006, 12:20 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<div></div>Also, as much as I hate it and hate violence, Sun Tzu is truth for humans. Lao Tzu is what I wish we all were. In the end, humans are animals and our wants, desires and instincts will always overcome our intelect in a few and that is enough to create discord and conflict. Our intelect has to understand that and prepare for the inevietable. It's a curse that can not be cured. Those that have no desire for violance are the people that will have it broght down upon them. It's shown all throuh history and history is a foggy window that shows us our future.<hr></blockquote>Hey, we all have our delusions, preach on if you believe in the naturalistic fallacy. I am not to quick to give up on human kind yet....even though it frustrates me.

Mordicus

02-16-2006, 01:01 AM

No one rolls a guard for dps lol, while your handing out DPS can i have Return to Battle, Steely Conviction, Tower of Stone and Call of Defense? If you dont like tanking raids and you want solo dps reroll, youre playing the wrong class, end of story. *Mordicus has left the building*.<div></div>

SkarlSpeedbu

02-16-2006, 01:07 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uccellin19 wrote:No one rolls a guard for dps lol, while your handing out DPS can i have Return to Battle, Steely Conviction, Tower of Stone and Call of Defense? If you dont like tanking raids and you want solo dps reroll, youre playing the wrong class, end of story. *Mordicus has left the building*.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Ohhh, how quickly the tables turn, huh my fellow guards? I remember a few guardian posts bellowing this same argument.</p><p>Thank you uccellin for the "look in the mirror".</p>

Krooner

02-16-2006, 01:08 AM

<blockquote><hr>uccellin19 wrote:No one rolls a guard for dps lol, while your handing out DPS can i have Return to Battle, Steely Conviction, Tower of Stone and Call of Defense? If you dont like tanking raids and you want solo dps reroll, youre playing the wrong class, end of story. *Mordicus has left the building*.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>And another NON Guardian who cant take his own advice.</p><p>IF you wanted to tank EPICS then you should have rolled a plate tank</p>

Lachlan

02-16-2006, 01:21 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Rahge wrote:<p><span><font color="#66ff00">Finger pointing started by other classes coming here first if it is used as a method to make valid points that are currently a problem for our class then dont read them, if you decide to then dont categorize them as finger pointing.</font></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Do you want to know where the whole thing started? It started in the guardian envy thread in this forum. A thread started by a guardian making fun of the other fighters for wanting to tank. Bragging about how superior guardians were and always would be and how if anyone wanted to tank they'd do the intelligent thing and "roll a guardian".</p><p>You guys have no one but yourselves to blame.</p><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Wow, just wow. One vituperative monk on a mission. I Started a Guardian on day one, along with a Shaman (a sad misadventure) I read the forums and there was no more or less chest pounding and bragging about Guardians in their own forum than most other classes that were not clearly broken at the begining; A totally fallacious arguement.</p><p>It's also a ridiculous notion that these forums hold that <em>much</em> sway with the devs. Yes they read them, sure they take some ideas out of here into test if it makes sense but at the end of the day, they have a test server, betas and all the rest for a reason, they just don't refit classes based on Forum feedback. </p><p>I put it to you that the MARKETING department has more influence on how classes advance and play than the forums have or ever will. Just follow the $$money$$. Here's a hint, it doesn't lead back to ones who's mouths flap like an unlatched door in the wind.</p>

mastersard

02-16-2006, 01:30 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lachlan wrote:<div></div><p>I put it to you that the MARKETING department has more influence on how classes advance and play than the forums have or ever will. Just follow the $$money$$. Here's a hint, it doesn't lead back to ones who's mouths flap like an unlatched door in the wind.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree. And based on our assumption, the mass subscriptions canceling (<font color="#ff0000">yes there is a drop in population, or SOE would be publishing their numbers</font>) and new server mergers(<font color="#ff0000">yes, i read their silly post about why servers seem empty. They seem empty becaue the ARE empty</font>), then the marketing department should be posting a company wide memo saying [Removed for Content]give the people what they want so we get to keep our jobs!</p><p>But, i also am convinced that Devs bas a LOT of design on these forums, and on the feeback thay get from Fanfairs. A face to face oppinion is far great er than a post here.</p>

Junaru

02-16-2006, 01:45 AM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Lachlan wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Rahge wrote:<p><span><font color="#66ff00">Finger pointing started by other classes coming here first if it is used as a method to make valid points that are currently a problem for our class then dont read them, if you decide to then dont categorize them as finger pointing.</font></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Do you want to know where the whole thing started? It started in the guardian envy thread in this forum. A thread started by a guardian making fun of the other fighters for wanting to tank. Bragging about how superior guardians were and always would be and how if anyone wanted to tank they'd do the intelligent thing and "roll a guardian".</p><p>You guys have no one but yourselves to blame.</p><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Wow, just wow. One vituperative monk on a mission. I Started a Guardian on day one, along with a Shaman (a sad misadventure) I read the forums and there was no more or less chest pounding and bragging about Guardians in their own forum than most other classes that were not clearly broken at the begining; A totally fallacious arguement.</p><p>It's also a ridiculous notion that these forums hold that <em>much</em> sway with the devs. Yes they read them, sure they take some ideas out of here into test if it makes sense but at the end of the day, they have a test server, betas and all the rest for a reason, they just don't refit classes based on Forum feedback. </p><p>I put it to you that the MARKETING department has more influence on how classes advance and play than the forums have or ever will. Just follow the $$money$$. Here's a hint, it doesn't lead back to ones who's mouths flap like an unlatched door in the wind.</p><hr></blockquote>If you believe that then you can't really say Gaige or any other Monk had ANY effect on the change made in LU13. So this whole debate is pointless. Works for me. <b>Don't blame Monks, blame the marketing department.</b></span></div>

Rah

02-16-2006, 01:56 AM

<div></div>This is getting to be like 70's point/counterpoint SNL skit.......<blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">That is a fuction of what the group chooses to do when you tank not a function of if you can tank a group of mobs and the players you are grouped with are not working with you PERIOD Therefore it is completley true. You said it twice let me reiterate it in case anyone missed it <font color="#ffff00">"My Monk can tank solo mobs as well and better then a Guardian"</font><font color="#ffffff"> <font color="#ff0000">and</font> </font></font></font></font><font color="#ffff00">"Monks do tank as well ".</font></span></p><p>I'm not saying the group should adapt to having a Monk as a Tank. I'm saying that we don't tank the same. If you really believe a Monk can tank group mobs better then a Guardian you are crazy. Give that a good percent of mobs come in groups it's pretty easy to see that Guardians tank better as a whole. Let me rephraze that to be less finger pointing, Warriors tank as a whole better then Brawlers.</p><p><font color="#66ff00">I dont now nor have I ever believed that a Monk could be better than a guardian in handling the aggro of a group of mobs. I have done it with my bruiser and it can be done so I suspect it can be done with monks as well. Is it easier for a Guardian to do it, sure. Does that mean that monks cant tank groups of mobs, it sure doesnt. </font></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">So if the crux of the problem is DPS as your hate generation then lets lower all DPS to a resonable damage gap and add to those same nerfed DPS skills a threat number that will still allow you to LOCK single target aggro by threat alone shall we? Once we get that nailed down then we can run some auto attack DPS in like gear and make sure that there isnt any amazing GAP there either.</font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">You think I'm going to worry about getting my DPS knocked down? You want that, sure. Not realy sure how that helps a Guardian solo but what the hay you really don't seem to care about that. I'm pretty sure most Guardians want to be able to solo or have more utility but like you said the answer to all Guardians problems is to knock the DPS of Monks down.</font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00">I dont care if your worried about it or not and your right it wont make my soloing abiity any better but what it will do is stop the selection of a fighter class based off of the its additional DPS when consideration is given between the two of us. Your a tank, you fought to tank now do the damage of a tank.</font> </span></p><p><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">And yet the same issue applies to monks as it does to brawlers in the terms we are discussing. Dont see alot of twink Plate classes soloing heroic content, sorry that domain is the BRAWLER classes alone. As far as going around telling people this or that, I dont, I post it here in my class forum to address my class issues. If you feel the need to let every player around you know about what I said so be it.</font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">No it doesn't. You have a Brusier so you know understand why and how they are able to solo those mobs. I'm a Monk and I know how. Without Fear and Mez it CAN NOT be done. Brusiers will stun a named mob and spam their CA's then mez the mob. Wait for their CA's to come back then stun and smap their CA's then fear the mob. Repeat till dead. Now tell me how a Monk could do that? And for the record I see zerks soloing heroic mobs all the time and Pally's also.</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Or is it just easier for you to ignorre the possibility that what i say has some truth to it.</font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">The truth? What that Gaige and other Monks killed the Guardian class? If you believe that then I'm not going to try and change your mind.</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00">For the record you can change my mind when you provide facts. </font></span><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"></font></font></font></font></font></p></span><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Peronal attacks on my mental balance are a great way to respond to what was an honest answer to your post. Thanks for your concern. I am fine now you and the person your defending can send e-mails to each other about when your going to see Broke Back mountain, cant wait for the reviews!</font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">I guess smilies and the words just kidding don't show up on your screen. If thats the case there is no sense in saying I'm sorry cause I doubt that will show up either.</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Thats right your DPS is overpowered.<font color="#ffffff">WRONG. Again you just don't see the real problem. My DPS isn't overpowering, Guardian DPS is lacking. But this is coming from a guy who thinking nerfing the Monk DPS is the way to fix Guardians.</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00">See green reply 2</font></span><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Your the one generalizing here, I have never posted in a forum about a class that I ahvent played. While you and many others (although not all) often do. If you scroll back youll notice that the poster was a guardian who is now playing a monk and in my case a guardian who plays a bruiser. What level is your guardian again?</font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">I don't play a Guardian. But I'm not sure what is scarier. The fact that a Monk knows more about the problems of your class or the fact that you leveled up a Guardian and are clueless to their problems.</font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00">Here we go again I tell you what I'll stop with the crap attitude when you do. your right I just hit auto attack and went afk for 60 levels, I dont have one clue what im doing every time I log in, you are amazing you should get a job with SOE as a class medium you can just talk to people, read a few forums and VIOLA you would achieve balance for us all. It must be lonley up there, Your post here have shined the light on our plight, how presumptious of me to argue with you over what I am.</font></span></p><p><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Thanks for the charity,</font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p>I'm not here for you and it's not charity. Unlike you I'm here because I think it's unfair that Guardians can't solo well. But hey each time I post and get people like you making me explain myself all the time I wonder if I should bother.</p><p><font color="#66ff00">Please dont bother anymore, thanks.</font></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">so what do you think of my DPS reduction and threat increase to solve the problem?</font></font></font></font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">No but unlike you I have given ideas as to how to fix the Guardian class. Maybe if you did a search on the guardian board you would know that I have from day one been giving suggestions and talking to other Guardians on the best ways to increase your DPS without making you overpowering and a target of another nerf.</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></p><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff"></font></font></font></font></font></font></span></blockquote><blockquote><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#66ff00">Your right I havent ever posted anything that concerns helping our class I just started repsonding to you.</font><p></p></font></font></font></font></font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Rahge

Lachlan

02-16-2006, 02:31 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span>If you believe that then you can't really say Gaige or any other Monk had ANY effect on the change made in LU13. So this whole debate is pointless. Works for me. <b>Don't blame Monks, blame the marketing department.</b></span></div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#6633ff">We have bingo</font>.</p><p>Someone coming to a class forum they don't play so they can taunt and throw stones is tiresome and immature (I'll act shocked). Creating overl-powered "class X" because it will play well with certain growth markets is basically kicking all of the customers you have because you know most will stay or be replaced by your growth markets. That's what really is disapointing, not the typical forum troll.</p><p>For me, I've enjoyed SOE's products over lots of competitors going back to 1999. Now, Blizzard is grabbing fists-full of thier marketshare and business being business the priority is getting some of that new X-factor that is driving MMO sales in 2006. Hence, content changes, graphical look options pop up and some playing styles offer more candy to attract more MMO dollars. Unfortunately, Guardians, Templars and a few others have been thrown out of wack by all this and it will be months before it's fixed. Probably this quest in KoS to betray to Zerker class is just a band-aid so the folks crying the loudest will shut up and re-roll their character. At least it gives them some cover til they get around to looking at all these issues; <font color="#6633ff">ie, solo content is growing while soloability of Guards, never great, has shrunk; Raid tanking, the Guard's one great advantage has been reworked to a slight edge that can be overlooked; DPS is embarrassing; mitigation doesn't come near making up for aformentioned lack of DPS. </font></p><p>SOE isn't evil or stupid or in the back pocket of some loudmouth monk. They are desparate and employees are front running the eventual 'head-counting' that will take place if they don't get some market share back. </p>

mastersard

02-16-2006, 02:44 AM

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Lachlan wrote:</p><p><font color="#6633ff">We have bingo</font>.</p><p>Someone coming to a class forum they don't play so they can taunt and throw stones is tiresome and immature (I'll act shocked). Creating overl-powered "class X" because it will play well with certain growth markets is basically kicking all of the customers you have because you know most will stay or be replaced by your growth markets. That's what really is disapointing, not the typical forum troll.</p><p>For me, I've enjoyed SOE's products over lots of competitors going back to 1999. Now, Blizzard is grabbing fists-full of thier marketshare and business being business the priority is getting some of that new X-factor that is driving MMO sales in 2006. Hence, content changes, graphical look options pop up and some playing styles offer more candy to attract more MMO dollars. Unfortunately, Guardians, Templars and a few others have been thrown out of wack by all this and it will be months before it's fixed. Probably this quest in KoS to betray to Zerker class is just a band-aid so the folks crying the loudest will shut up and re-roll their character. At least it gives them some cover til they get around to looking at all these issues; <font color="#6633ff">ie, solo content is growing while soloability of Guards, never great, has shrunk; Raid tanking, the Guard's one great advantage has been reworked to a slight edge that can be overlooked; DPS is embarrassing; mitigation doesn't come near making up for aformentioned lack of DPS. </font></p><p>SOE isn't evil or stupid or in the back pocket of some loudmouth monk. They are desparate and employees are front running the eventual 'head-counting' that will take place if they don't get some market share back. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Nice. Your blue text is dead on right, Lachlan. SOE, however, <em>is</em> stupid. They are slow, as all major corporations are (including mine). It's like piloting a huge aircraft carrier. They're really powerful, have great strategic capabilities, but have a helluva time parallel parking. SOE is just not maneuverable. They cant change direction on a dime.</p><p>Eventually, someone's got to take the fall for bad game design, and for the ignored customer base.</p><p>(prolly the marketing department, lol)</p>

Gaige

02-16-2006, 03:02 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<p>IF you wanted to tank EPICS then you should have rolled a plate tank</p><hr></blockquote><p>EQ1 is that way ------------------------></p><blockquote><p></p><hr>mastersardis wrote:<p></p><p>I agree. And based on our assumption, the mass subscriptions canceling (<font color="#ff0000">yes there is a drop in population, or SOE would be publishing their numbers</font>) and new server mergers(<font color="#ff0000">yes, i read their silly post about why servers seem empty. They seem empty becaue the ARE empty</font></p><hr><p></p></blockquote><p>Mass subscription cancelling = your opinion. You can't prove it, just like you can't prove there is a huge decrease in players.</p><p>Server mergers, heh. I love how this gets brought up. I'm going to make it easy for you to understand.</p><p>If a new player starts this game and sees:</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Antonia Bayle - Population Heavy</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Unrest - Population Heavy</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Permafrost - Population Medium</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">Blackburrow - Population light</font></p><p>Where are they going to go? One of the heavy servers obviously, because that's where the people play. This leads to an overpopulation on one or two servers and an underpopulation and other servers, like mine prior to the merge.</p><p>All they did was make almost every server have a medium to heavy load. Why? So that players coming into this game can choose any server and new player population gets more evenly distributed.</p><p>Its smart business. On sunday my server had caves 2, antonica 2, thundering steppes 2... 100 people in the Silent City raid area. I've never seen that before.</p><p>It was a great move for the overall health of EQ2.</p><p>As for your jab about Fan Faire's and face to face. Two things:</p><p>1) Anyone can go. You should've went if you think FF carries that much weight.</p><p>2) Noah was there, and last I checked he plays a guardian. In fact there was a guardian at both community summits also <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:10 PM</span></p>

Crim001

02-16-2006, 04:05 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crim001 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><p>I guess we can fight hyperbole with hyperbole. It was the<strong> guardians</strong>, that nerfed the guardians, their incessant bragging, constant details of "fighting nekkid" and big tales of taking on everything duo with a templar. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Been looking around on oldschool forums looking for your PoV here.....would you mind showing where this was posted....</p><p>Most I've been able to see so far are claims of soloing mobs 1-2 levels below them....</p><hr></blockquote><p>How about someone posting a Sig stating, "tanking nakid since...." Every post implying that he can tank without the use of armor. If that didn't cry nerf I don't know what does. I can post a plenty btw, but hey, I think your pickin a fight, and the evidence and bragging I point out will surely look like something different to you. I try to stay objective on this issue, but if your trying to paint me in the monk corner, I am not gonna bite. Maybe the reoccurring themes of "By golly Guardians should be the only main tank" cries may be good evidence of them wanting the old glory back.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">I just wanted to know so that I could see where you were coming from....I didn't post on the boards until long, long after I started playing the game, so I didn't see many of the posts of bragging....I did however see a few of Tunaboo's (sp?) which were quite a shock to me....</font></p><p>Uh, btw, you can see some of this in the bruiser/monk forums. We are all people here, the behaviors don't change, just which class is displaying them on the boards LOL.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">Gotta point there...</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>

Crim001

02-16-2006, 04:22 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Mass subscription cancelling = your opinion. You can't prove it, just like you can't prove there is a huge decrease in players.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">So all the guilds that I've seen break up, and eventually forced to merge because of a huge loss of players is just my imagination?</font></p><p>Server mergers, heh. I love how this gets brought up. I'm going to make it easy for you to understand.</p><p>If a new player starts this game and sees:</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Antonia Bayle - Population Heavy</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Unrest - Population Heavy</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Permafrost - Population Medium</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">Blackburrow - Population light</font></p><p>Where are they going to go? One of the heavy servers obviously, because that's where the people play. This leads to an overpopulation on one or two servers and an underpopulation and other servers, like mine prior to the merge.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">So now me, a small time, low bandwidth player, will suddenly stop playing a game because of immense lag that the server merges will cause. I'm not a rich, hardcore gamer, so I don't have a tweaked out PC nor can I easily afford a new one, and I already play with settings down pretty dam low.</font></p><p>All they did was make almost every server have a medium to heavy load. Why? So that players coming into this game can choose any server and new player population gets more evenly distributed.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">Hmm....I chose my server because I didn't want a heavy population.....I rerolled my warlock recently, and all I happened to see were medium load servers btw.</font></p><p>Its smart business. On sunday my server had caves 2, antonica 2, thundering steppes 2... 100 people in the Silent City raid area. I've never seen that before.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">Only good thing I see out of this will be a slightly boosted economy. Raiders will hate this I'm sure===>less chances for contesteds.</font></p><hr></blockquote>

mastersard

02-16-2006, 04:38 AM

<div></div><p>I'm not even going to quote you Gaige, but here's my response:</p><p>Server mergers happen for 1 reason, and 1 reason alone. Low Population. My roomate playes WoW. Their servers are FULL. They are adding new content, sure, and raising the level cap, yeah, but they are also ADDING MORE SERVERS because their game is MORE POPULAR than EQ2.</p><p>I dont care who else went to Fanfair. You went. You call the Devs by there firs names like they're you close personal friends. I bet you PM them all the time, huh?</p><p>Your posts read like a SOE propaganda artist wrote them. You are biased. You have blinders on. Wake up.</p>

Krooner

02-16-2006, 06:49 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<p>IF you wanted to tank EPICS then you should have rolled a plate tank</p><hr></blockquote><p>EQ1 is that way ------------------------></p><p> </p><p>Ohh Come on Gaige read the rest of the post and who I was quoting man. Apply that to what you know my attitude to be. I was being tort with a certain NON-Guardian bringing back that old line.. if you wanted so and so you should reroll. for the last week Janaru and you and a few other have been to least in my opinion more than civil.. but when a idiot pring back this tired retoric Im going to respond in kind.</p><p> </p>

mastersard

02-17-2006, 01:41 AM

<div></div><p>These people (Gaige, Janaru) are smart, but biased, and they post here to keep ther class from being nerfed. However, Guardians requesting a fix somehow gets misinterpreted as a threat. I know you guys are scared of it, but we're not asking that any changes be made to your class (Ok, well, some hot-heads are, but they're posting in anger, so please ignore). We dont want you to have to endure what we are going thru right now, believe it or not. It sucks.</p><p>All we want to for the playing field to really be level. We want a class that really "wow"s us again, yet not at the cost of other tanks being viable in the MT/OT/MA role, or giving up their solo-ability.</p><p>We are not a threat.</p><p>Howeverm when you guys come here and attack and derail threads, and refute our requests for fixes, you will of course be met with animosity.</p><p>From then on, you oppinion means jack to our community. That is why you are seeing such a harsh response.</p>

TimUK

02-17-2006, 03:44 AM

<div>Im not gonna quote or flame anyone/anything said in this post, but heres my 2cp</div><div> </div><div>In LU13 Monks got gimped aswell, my avoidance pre-*13* was 79% afterwards it was 63</div><div> </div><div>Imho if you want to be a proper tank you should roll a guard, they wear plate and their defensive buffs (dont know names, but know they rock) are essential in any group</div><div> </div><div>I (as a monk) see myself more of a offtank, the guy who helps the tank out with other aggro in the mob</div><div>If he gets into too much trouble i can heal then Rescue, switch to def stance and try my best</div><div> </div><div>I dont have uber items/equip and i see myself as more of a dps role then a tank</div><div> </div><div>Lets face it guys, when was the last time someone chose a monk to be the MT over a Guard?</div><div> </div><div>I personally never get chosen to be the MT, had my LFG tag on alot, only ever been chosen as the MT a handfull of times (if that)</div><div> </div><div>You should be happy with your class, you may not have better DPS then a Monk, but imo, your a much better tank </div><div> </div><div>At least you know you will allways be chosen to tank before a Monk, and i see this fact stated all the time on the monk/bruiser boards</div>

jinxedup

02-17-2006, 04:34 AM

<div>let me explain it to you as simply as i can mastersardis-- Guards dont get a DPS increase unless they give up their increased tanking ablility-- thats just simply not ok-- you cant have the best of both worlds-- we wont allow it-- so either choose the best tank-- guards or zerkers hands down-- NO other class can compete with the aggro and defense they have-- or less tanking ablility and more dps-- just like any of the 4 other "tank" trees</div><div> </div><div>That would be comparable to me asking for my monk to have better mitigation and defense while not losing any dps-- again something you guards would scream bloody murder at and run around claiming the sky is falling like you did LU13</div><div>See-- pretty simple huh-- you get no benefits without giving something else up-- you simply dont deserve it</div>

Anasyn Silverdagg

02-17-2006, 04:35 AM

<div>It's always funny how we get one raid in the game that drops more then one fabled brawler item a lot and all of a sudden theirs tons of brawler gear in the game. Look back at all the lower tier raids and all the instances in dof and compare the number of leather armor drops and brawler weapons. If you think guardians are bad at soloing try a Mystic <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

Wasuna

02-17-2006, 04:45 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div>let me explain it to you as simply as i can mastersardis-- Guards dont get a DPS increase unless they give up their increased tanking ablility-- thats just simply not ok-- you cant have the best of both worlds-- we wont allow it-- so either choose the best tank-- guards or zerkers hands down-- NO other class can compete with the aggro and defense they have-- or less tanking ablility and more dps-- just like any of the 4 other "tank" trees</div><div> </div><div>That would be comparable to me asking for my monk to have better mitigation and defense while not losing any dps-- again something you guards would scream bloody murder at and run around claiming the sky is falling like you did LU13</div><div>See-- pretty simple huh-- you get no benefits without giving something else up-- you simply dont deserve it</div><hr></blockquote>You are uninformed. Come back when you spend some time reading and seeingt he issues as they are.

mastersard

02-17-2006, 05:04 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div>let me explain it to you as simply as i can mastersardis-- Guards dont get a DPS increase unless they give up their increased tanking ablility-- thats just simply not ok-- you cant have the best of both worlds-- we wont allow it-- so either choose the best tank-- guards or zerkers hands down-- NO other class can compete with the aggro and defense they have-- or less tanking ablility and more dps-- just like any of the 4 other "tank" trees</div><div> </div><div>That would be comparable to me asking for my monk to have better mitigation and defense while not losing any dps-- again something you guards would scream bloody murder at and run around claiming the sky is falling like you did LU13</div><div>See-- pretty simple huh-- you get no benefits without giving something else up-- you simply dont deserve it</div><hr></blockquote>You are uninformed. Come back when you spend some time reading and seeingt he issues as they are.<hr></blockquote><p>Thanks for taking care of my lite work, Wasuna.</p><p>Guards gave up EVERYTHING pre LU13 in exchange for tanking superiority. Now tanking is equal, per MG and SOE, yet Guards still give up EVERYTHING, and get NOTHING.</p><p>Let me reiterate. Guards have no role outside of tanking. Monks tank as well a Guards, yet have all the DPS and Utility.</p><p>Dont go away mad, just go away.</p>

Crim001

02-17-2006, 05:42 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TimUK wrote:<div> </div><div>In LU13 Monks got gimped aswell, my avoidance pre-*13* was 79% afterwards it was 63</div><div><font color="#ccff00">And mine went from around 50% to around 35%. Everyone got hit by the agil/avoid nerf. Too many people were maxing theirs out....especially with troubs and dirges in groups.</font></div><div> </div><div>Imho if you want to be a proper tank you should roll a guard, they wear plate and their defensive buffs (dont know names, but know they rock) are essential in any group</div><div><font color="#ccff00">In a group, our buffs don't do too much. A healer can pretty much provide the same buffs, but better.</font></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Lets face it guys, when was the last time someone chose a monk to be the MT over a Guard?</div><div><font color="#ccff00">Well, I've been playing alts mostly now, but the last time I tanked for a group, we had a monk in it.....and I asked him to tank (we were doin clops and he was a 1-2 levels over me though).</font></div><div> </div><div>I personally never get chosen to be the MT, had my LFG tag on alot, only ever been chosen as the MT a handfull of times (if that)</div><div><font color="#ccff00">I've gone lfg for hours, even a few days w/o getting a group sometimes. You only need 1 guard in a group, if that.</font></div><div> </div><div>You should be happy with your class, you may not have better DPS then a Monk, but imo, your a much better tank </div><div> </div><div>At least you know you will allways be chosen to tank before a Monk, and i see this fact stated all the time on the monk/bruiser boards</div><hr></blockquote>Just pointing out some things here. Yes we can tank well....it often requires upgrading of spells/armor in order to keep up with mobs/groupmates though. Also....the main crusade for guards isn't to tank better....its to be able to contribute something outside the group.

Crim001

02-17-2006, 05:49 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div>let me explain it to you as simply as i can mastersardis-- Guards dont get a DPS increase unless they give up their increased tanking ablility-- thats just simply not ok-- you cant have the best of both worlds-- we wont allow it-- so either choose the best tank-- guards or zerkers hands down-- NO other class can compete with the aggro and defense they have-- or less tanking ablility and more dps-- just like any of the 4 other "tank" trees</div><div> </div><div>That would be comparable to me asking for my monk to have better mitigation and defense while not losing any dps-- again something you guards would scream bloody murder at and run around claiming the sky is falling like you did LU13</div><div>See-- pretty simple huh-- you get no benefits without giving something else up-- you simply dont deserve it</div><hr></blockquote>You are uninformed. Come back when you spend some time reading and seeingt he issues as they are.<hr></blockquote><p>Thanks for taking care of my lite work, Wasuna.</p><p>Guards gave up EVERYTHING pre LU13 in exchange for tanking superiority. Now tanking is equal, per MG and SOE, yet Guards still give up EVERYTHING, and get NOTHING.</p><p>Let me reiterate. Guards have no role outside of tanking. Monks tank as well a Guards, yet have all the DPS and Utility.</p><p>Dont go away mad, just go away.</p><hr></blockquote>Sigh....why do people come to these forums and post if they don't read the rest of the thread AT LEAST? It gets kinda annoying when people randomly flame about something thats been discussed, and cleared up 40 million times....

Snikey

02-17-2006, 10:17 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anasyn Silverdagger wrote:<div> </div><div>If you think guardians are bad at soloing try a Mystic <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote><p>The arguement for LU13 went something like this. All fighters are supossed to be tanks. We all should tank equally.</p><p>When we talk about Soloing / farming being equal as well, we have people say it wasn't promised classes solo equally. Which I completely understand. Priest, scouts, mages, fighters... all solo differently and unequally. But if you look in each group, ones that are to be balanced, ie. tanking equally in fighter's instance. Solo'ing / Farming ability is way skwed. It's does not even come close to the slight differences in tanking.</p>

jinxedup

02-17-2006, 11:19 AM

<div></div><div></div>thanks for showing your ignorance mastersardis-- Guards are the ONLY viable raid tank in any difficult raid(as in LJ really isnt a raid)so monks and guards do NOT tank equally well-- PERIOD--- suggesting otherwise just makes you look stupid or like a liar<p>Message Edited by jinxedup on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:22 PM</span></p>

Snikey

02-17-2006, 11:47 AM

<div></div>2-3 encounters in the game... difference... go solo / farm with a guardian and tell me that those 2-3 encounters make the monk and guardian tanking difference as big as you make it sound.

Sir_Halbarad

02-17-2006, 02:48 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>These people (Gaige, Janaru) are smart, but biased, and they post here to keep ther class from being nerfed. </p><hr></blockquote>That would mean a dev would actually read these boards ... HAHA <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

Sir_Halbarad

02-17-2006, 02:58 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div></div><div></div>thanks for showing your ignorance mastersardis-- Guards are the ONLY viable raid tank in any difficult raid(as in LJ really isnt a raid)so monks and guards do NOT tank equally well-- PERIOD--- suggesting otherwise just makes you look stupid or like a liar<p>Message Edited by jinxedup on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:22 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>There are only a few mobs, less than a handful maybe, that can only be tanked by a Warrior (Guardian only? doubt it). Proven by Gaige and other Raiding Monks/Bruisers.So, all Fighters can tank Raid Mobs. That's what you wanted... the ability to tank raid mobs.Since Guardians won't get a tanking boost - all you crying babies would come back and spam the devs again - we want some dps and utility. Because, and maybe you are uninformed here, a Guardian who is not the Guild MT has NO Role, NO Soloability, NO Fun.And now you come back and tell me I should roll a monk? thanks, bye.</span><div></div>

jinxedup

02-17-2006, 07:21 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sir_Halbarad wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div></div><div></div>thanks for showing your ignorance mastersardis-- Guards are the ONLY viable raid tank in any difficult raid(as in LJ really isnt a raid)so monks and guards do NOT tank equally well-- PERIOD--- suggesting otherwise just makes you look stupid or like a liar<p>Message Edited by jinxedup on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:22 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>There are only a few mobs, less than a handful maybe, that can only be tanked by a Warrior (Guardian only? doubt it). Proven by Gaige and other Raiding Monks/Bruisers.So, all Fighters can tank Raid Mobs. That's what you wanted... the ability to tank raid mobs.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Nope-- thats not what i wanted, thanks for trying--i want tanking to be equal-- the fact that a few or a handful can only be tanked by warrior only means they are not equal, i want to be able to tank EVERY mob as well as a warrior, just like every other subclass including crusaders(poor sk's need some big attention in the aggro dept also), when that happens you can have all the dps and utility you want, i could care less, but until your tanking ability gets brought down to every other tanks (or theirs gets brought up to your)level you dont deserve any more utility.</font>Since Guardians won't get a tanking boost - all you crying babies would come back and spam the devs again - we want some dps and utility. Because, and maybe you are uninformed here, a Guardian who is not the Guild MT has NO Role, NO Soloability, NO Fun.And now you come back and tell me I should roll a monk? thanks, bye.</p></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>

mastersard

02-17-2006, 10:59 PM

<div></div><p>lol, someone needs a nap and a clue.</p><p>You DID get equal tanking. It's balanced. You dont believe me? Ask MG.</p><p>Now, where's my solo-ability, my DPS, my role outside of tanking, as promised?</p><p>I will admit my ignorance in many things. This is not one. I've played the guardian class, and the monk. The solo differance is night and day. You have no argument about utility. Tanking is equal.</p><p>I have never stepped in front of a raid mob, and never intend to. You "Handful of mobs" i can tank and you can't dont make a dam bit of differance to me. I'd bet you are in the same boat as me, right? How many raids have you tanked? Do you honestly think you ever will?</p><p>I highly doubt it.</p>

Krooner

02-17-2006, 11:14 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div></div><div></div>thanks for showing your ignorance mastersardis-- Guards are the ONLY viable raid tank in any difficult raid(as in LJ really isnt a raid)so monks and guards do NOT tank equally well-- PERIOD--- suggesting otherwise just makes you look stupid or like a liar<p>Message Edited by jinxedup on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:22 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Ummmm NO.</div><div>WE have tanked Mobs in Court with.</div><div>Zerker.</div><div>Mobs in Gates with Bruiser and Zerker and SK and Paladins</div><div> </div><div>Mobs in Poets return with Zerker and Paladin</div><div> </div><div>Mobs in Sol Eye Pre and Post LU13 with T5 PC's with.</div><div>Bruiser</div><div>Zerker</div><div>SK</div><div>Paladin.</div><div>yes all of those mobs could be tanked with a guardian and OTHERS.</div><div> </div><div>And YES Im talking about EPICS.</div><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p>

Rah

02-17-2006, 11:19 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sir_Halbarad wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div></div><div></div>thanks for showing your ignorance mastersardis-- Guards are the ONLY viable raid tank in any difficult raid(as in LJ really isnt a raid)so monks and guards do NOT tank equally well-- PERIOD--- suggesting otherwise just makes you look stupid or like a liar<p>Message Edited by jinxedup on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:22 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>There are only a few mobs, less than a handful maybe, that can only be tanked by a Warrior (Guardian only? doubt it). Proven by Gaige and other Raiding Monks/Bruisers.So, all Fighters can tank Raid Mobs. That's what you wanted... the ability to tank raid mobs.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Nope-- thats not what i wanted, thanks for trying--i want tanking to be equal-- the fact that a few or a handful can only be tanked by warrior only means they are not equal, i want to be able to tank EVERY mob as well as a warrior, just like every other subclass including crusaders(poor sk's need some big attention in the aggro dept also), </font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">No trying involved here, tanking has been balanced in SOE eyes all fighters can tank. </font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">when that happens you can have all the dps and utility you want, i could care less,</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">Thanks your opinion on how and when we should recieve a parity in those areas that you excell at. Feel free to drop in after every update and let us know what else we will be recieveing when the game has been adjusted and has met your criteria. By the way are you the Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee side the brawler debate?</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"> but until your tanking ability gets brought down to every other tanks (or theirs gets brought up to your)level you dont deserve any more utility.</font></p><font color="#ff0000"></font></span></blockquote><blockquote><span><font color="#66ff00">What you deserve I wont even post here. What was taken away from us, well it is my fondest hope that it happens to you, then I will at least have some respect for you if you continue to play a monk. </font>Since Guardians won't get a tanking boost - all you crying babies would come back and spam the devs again - we want some dps and utility. Because, and maybe you are uninformed here, a Guardian who is not the Guild MT has NO Role, NO Soloability, NO Fun.And now you come back and tell me I should roll a monk? thanks, bye.</span><div></div><p></p><p></p><hr><p><font color="#66ff00">Thanks for the insightfull information and please come again.</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00"></font> </p><p>Rahge</p></blockquote></blockquote>