Maybe the developers can explain why Guardians don't have a thread like this

[Wasuna]

<div>I was just messing around and found this thread on the bruiser forum. Truly amazing stuff they can solo. I doubt any Guardian anywhere could even begin to imagine anything like this. I suspect SOE and the developers believe this is balance. The eye is a guaranteeded master every time. I think bruisers should have to pay for my damage shield on raids at the very least.</div><div> </div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=11755" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=11755</a></div>

[Rah]

<div></div><p>Im so glad someone else posted this.</p><p> </p><p>Rahge</p>

[Sirlutt]

While i dont condone wishing nerf's on any class.. thats just a slap to the face really.there are 2 threads the devs should see in this forum, this is the 2nd one.<div></div>

[Burningho]

<div></div><p>In what version of reality can this be considered balanced?  I could not dream of doing any of the stuff listed on this thread. </p><p>Anyone else notice that some of the same bruisers that troll the guardian forum fighting against any guardian improvements have also posted to that thread about doing some pretty amazing things?  That is just not right.</p>

[Greyform]

<div></div><p>The amazing thing about that thread, are the number of people who are competing in that little urinating contest are also the same ones who spend so much time on the guardian boards claiming that guardians are a balanced fighter class. </p><p>Sad to see what a developer can do to unbalance a game just because he is partial to certain players/classes.</p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><div>Well when they get nerfed, they can't come to the Guardian or any of the other fighter forums and say we all had a hand in it.</div><div> </div><div>Threads like those don't do Bruisers any favours.</div><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:01 PM</span></p>

[Kain Hammersmith]

<div></div>I dont even know what to say. I am looking forward to getting my Bruiser to lvl 60 though....hehe

[Wabit]

<div></div><div>this game hates me...  i'm still trying to solo (failing every time) the last named efferti in BoF =(...</div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><p>If you actually read the thread very few bruisers can do what Phayax can.</p><p>As for "trying to keep Guardians down" I'm not - I just think the tanking is pretty balanced.  I've said plenty of times that you need improvements.</p>

[Junaru]

<div><span>I've spent as much time on the Guardian board as I do on the Monk board and 90% of the time other classes agree with the Guardians that you need a DPS boost. We don't always agree how much or how to go about it. I personally think the answer is in your Offencive stance.But time and time again you still manage to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like it's all other classes fault. Truth is I feel sorry for the mature Guardians asking for a boost. I feel sorry that they have a bunch of whinner on their side who don't know how to get things done. Posting about how another class can do something you can't isn't going to get you the boost you need/want. What you might end up doing is getting Monks nerfed also. And the truth is Fear and Mez is what lets the Brusier solo those mobs not DPS or tanking, Monks don't have either.</span></div>

[Balbaro]

<div></div><div>It doesnt matter the linked thread is sickening... i would have understand if it was some wizzies bragging about murdering thoses nameds (got a 60 wiz as well) but that is just lame... i love my guardian more than ever and i try to be objective and positive when talking about tanks being equals but this blow up my mind...</div><div> </div><div> some of the encounters i cant even beat with my wizzy like roost and yet u see a suposed tank murder all theses <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>                                  We all know what happen to flavors of the month thought anyway <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </div><div> </div><div>                                                                                                                                            Balbarot h 60 Guardian</div><div>                                                                                                                                                            Kithicor</div><p>Message Edited by Balbaroth on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:57 AM</span></p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><div></div><p>I think it is unfair to once again throw this back on the Guardians. If monks get nerfed, it is because SOE decides it will be so. Coming here and saying Guardians are going to get monks or bruisers nerfed, isn't true in the slightest. So far SOE haven't implemented any changes that many Guardians would like to see help improve the class. What makes you think we have any <em>influence at all</em> to get any other fighter class nerfed.</p><p>However, threads like the one linked that <em>was started by a bruiser on the bruiser forums</em>, has nothing to do with anything Guardian.  We do have the right to comment on it though, just as you and non Guardians come here and comment on various threads.</p><p>It is my opinion that thread will not help Bruisers in any way if a dev reads it and takes it seriously and will be laughable if then bruisers come here and claim Guardians got them nerfed lol.</p><p>Don't go throwing this back on us.</p><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:09 AM</span></p>

[Timzil]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span>I've spent as much time on the Guardian board as I do on the Monk board and 90% of the time other classes agree with the Guardians that you need a DPS boost. We don't always agree how much or how to go about it. I personally think the answer is in your Offencive stance.But time and time again you still manage to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like it's all other classes fault. Truth is I feel sorry for the mature Guardians asking for a boost. I feel sorry that they have a bunch of whinner on their side who don't know how to get things done. Posting about how another class can do something you can't isn't going to get you the boost you need/want. What you might end up doing is getting Monks nerfed also. And the truth is Fear and Mez is what lets the Brusier solo those mobs not DPS or tanking, Monks don't have either.</span></div><hr></blockquote>but, but, Monks need nerfed! Just read their boards. Nobody is complaining. If that's not a sure sign that they're overpowered, I don't know what is.

[Excedium]

<div></div><div>What kinda mobs can you guys solo. I'm a 54 Guard with full cobalt and cobalt batons. I was able to just beat a level 46^^^ glare lord in CT phew left with less then 10% haha but im sure he got me so low due to him being a caster. Mind you I dont have hex dolls. But I didnt make a Guard to effectively solo. I still think Guards should tank the best screw more dps i could seriously careless. Im hoping the removal of archtype system fixes this but im not holding my breathe.</div><p>Message Edited by Excedium on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:03 AM</span></p>

[Danter]

<div></div><p>I had a guardian main and I supported and fought for changes.  They didn't happen.  I still support more DPS for guards like adding 35% DPS buff or haste to your offensive stance because I agree, they suck playing in non raid situations.</p><p>If the devs made named mobs immune to mez then Bruisers wouldn't have a prayer to solo any of those encounters.</p><p>Brigands can solo the Aysor and his Eye as well and they don't even have mez.</p><p>I'm sure other classes like Coercers and Rangers can solo these as well.</p><p> </p>

[Pry]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Excedium wrote:<div></div><div>What kinda mobs can you guys solo. I'm a 54 Guard with full cobalt and cobalt batons. I was able to just beat a level 46^^^ glare lord in CT phew left with less then 10% haha but im sure he got me so low due to him being a caster. Mind you I dont have hex dolls. But I didnt make a Guard to effectively solo. I still think Guards should tank the best screw more dps i could seriously careless. Im hoping the removal of archtype system fixes this but im not holding my breathe.</div><p>Message Edited by Excedium on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:03 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>While you are soloing triple ups 8 levels below you with less than 10% health, Gaige is soloing ones 2 levels <u><strong>above</strong> </u>him with less than 10% health.  It's all about the skills and the gear though, right?  If you believe that, I have oceanfront property in Calgary to sell to you. </p><p>EDIT:  I also wanted to say that a Guardians ability to solo triple up mobs 2 levels above them was the chief argument for the Guardian nerf call pre-LU13.  Pot, meet kettle.</p><p>Message Edited by Prynn on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:29 AM</span></p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>While you are soloing triple ups 8 levels below you with less than 10% health, Gaige is soloing ones 2 levels <u><strong>above</strong> </u>him with less than 10% health.  It's all about the skills and the gear though, right?  If you believe that, I have oceanfront property in Calgary to sell to you. </p><hr></blockquote><p>I've done it <em>one</em> time.  Previously, before that try, I had got totally backdoor violated by that mob like 20x.  I also get extreme whippings by Sha'irs.  So please do not generalize that I run around solo'ing heroic yellows all day, far from it.  I also have yet to attempt the eye and the cyclops, I can't be bothered to click all those stupid statues into place.  The majority of bruiser solo'ing is because they can fear and mez.  A 22 second mez is no joke.</p><p>As for gear and spells, mine are pretty good - but I don't think its just that.  I think its knowing how to stun, when to heal myself, when to use tsunami, what potions to carry and the amount of boredom required to engage stuff you aren't supposed to solo to see if you can.</p><p>As for Lad's first post about "if monks get nerfed its SOE's fault" - that is the best irony YET from the guardian forum.  I loved it, thank you.</p><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:03 AM</span></p>

[Lyrus]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Excedium wrote:<div></div><div>What kinda mobs can you guys solo. I'm a 54 Guard with full cobalt and cobalt batons. I was able to just beat a level 46^^^ glare lord in CT phew left with less then 10% haha but im sure he got me so low due to him being a caster. Mind you I dont have hex dolls. But I didnt make a Guard to effectively solo. I still think Guards should tank the best screw more dps i could seriously careless. Im hoping the removal of archtype system fixes this but im not holding my breathe.</div><p>Message Edited by Excedium on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:03 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>While you are soloing triple ups 8 levels below you with less than 10% health, Gaige is soloing ones 2 levels <u><strong>above</strong> </u>him with less than 10% health.  It's all about the skills and the gear though, right?  If you believe that, I have oceanfront property in Calgary to sell to you. </p><p>EDIT:  I also wanted to say that a Guardians ability to solo triple up mobs 2 levels above them was the chief argument for the Guardian nerf call pre-LU13.  Pot, meet kettle.   <font color="#ffff00">Actually it was the fact that we could reach 100% mitigation and 100% avoidance consistantly through buff stacking and defense.</font></p><p>Message Edited by Prynn on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:29 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span></div>

[Pry]

<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00"><em>Actually it was the fact that we could reach 100% mitigation and 100% avoidance consistantly through buff stacking and defense.</em></font></p><p>Which allowed us to solo mobs two levels above us, capiche?  So it's the same thing, don't be a newb.</p><p>Gaige, the fact that you could actually accomplish this one time out of twenty, when guardians carrying any combination of potions, gear, abilities, etc. could never dream of it,  proves my point.  It is no different than the "buff-stacking" complaint pre LU-13. </p>

[Lyrus]

The only way we acheived 100% avoidance and mitigation at the same time was through buff stacking in a group, group means not solo.Sorry bub.<div></div>

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lyrus-D wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Excedium wrote:<div></div><div>What kinda mobs can you guys solo. I'm a 54 Guard with full cobalt and cobalt batons. I was able to just beat a level 46^^^ glare lord in CT phew left with less then 10% haha but im sure he got me so low due to him being a caster. Mind you I dont have hex dolls. But I didnt make a Guard to effectively solo. I still think Guards should tank the best screw more dps i could seriously careless. Im hoping the removal of archtype system fixes this but im not holding my breathe.</div><p>Message Edited by Excedium on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:03 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>While you are soloing triple ups 8 levels below you with less than 10% health, Gaige is soloing ones 2 levels <u><strong>above</strong> </u>him with less than 10% health.  It's all about the skills and the gear though, right?  If you believe that, I have oceanfront property in Calgary to sell to you. </p><p>EDIT:  I also wanted to say that a Guardians ability to solo triple up mobs 2 levels above them was the chief argument for the Guardian nerf call pre-LU13.  Pot, meet kettle.   <font color="#ffff00">Actually it was the fact that we could reach 100% mitigation and 100% avoidance consistantly through buff stacking and defense.</font></p><p>Message Edited by Prynn on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:29 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Actually it was the fact that we could reach 100% mitigation and 100% avoidance consistantly through buff stacking and defense.</font></span></div><hr></blockquote><p>No Actually the buff stacking was the mechinism.  The complaint was as stated.  Others complained that we could do it.. not why we could do it.</p><p>Some classes CAN do heroics 2 levels above their level because of certain abilites.  Secondly the devs stated long ago that it was never their intent to have buff stacking.  They have stated no such thing lately about some classes having so much utility that they imbalance the rest of the class.</p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00"><em>Actually it was the fact that we could reach 100% mitigation and 100% avoidance consistantly through buff stacking and defense.</em></font></p><p>Which allowed us to solo mobs two levels above us, capiche?  So it's the same thing, don't be a newb.</p><p>Gaige, the fact that you could actually accomplish this one time out of twenty, when guardians carrying any combination of potions, gear, abilities, etc. could never dream of it,  proves my point.  It is no different than the "buff-stacking" complaint pre LU-13.</p><hr></blockquote><p>It proves that we can't solo equally, yup.  However my ability to solo translates differently to group play than yours did.  Where preLU13 you could solo heroics by means of never getting hit which then translated to grouping.</p><p>Some of the things I can do solo translate well to grouping, but not all.</p><p>However, sure, use this as your crusade to get fixed, get us nerfed, whatever.  If soloing though is your thing, just ask for fear and mez... you'll become the kings of soloing, heh.</p>

[Lyrus]

Yes, buff stacking was the mechanism, but the complaint was not about solo, the complaint was about raid content being trivialized, thus requiring even more outrageous encounters to even present a reasonable challenge.<div></div>

[Pry]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00"><em>Actually it was the fact that we could reach 100% mitigation and 100% avoidance consistantly through buff stacking and defense.</em></font></p><p>Which allowed us to solo mobs two levels above us, capiche?  So it's the same thing, don't be a newb.</p><p>Gaige, the fact that you could actually accomplish this one time out of twenty, when guardians carrying any combination of potions, gear, abilities, etc. could never dream of it,  proves my point.  It is no different than the "buff-stacking" complaint pre LU-13.</p><hr></blockquote><p>It proves that we can't solo equally, yup.  However my ability to solo translates differently to group play than yours did.  Where preLU13 you could solo heroics by means of never getting hit which then translated to grouping.</p><p>Some of the things I can do solo translate well to grouping, but not all.</p><p>However, sure, use this as your crusade to get fixed, get us nerfed, whatever.  If soloing though is your thing, just ask for fear and mez... you'll become the kings of soloing, heh.</p><hr></blockquote><p>By the way, I just wanted to add that the 100% avoidance and 100% mitigation only applied to maybe 5% (and I am being generous) of all Guardians on all servers pre-LU13.  But I understand, nerf 33% of classes because of something 5% of one class in one archtype can do. </p><p>What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? </p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Prynn wrote:<p>What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? </p><hr></blockquote><p>I dunno, I can't where plate.</p><p>I get your point though, and if it truly takes nerfing monk/bruiser so ability to balance the fighter classes then I doubt I'd complain.  I mostly raid anyway.</p>

[Pry]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lyrus-D wrote:Yes, buff stacking was the mechanism, but the complaint was not about solo, the complaint was about raid content being trivialized, thus requiring even more outrageous encounters to even present a reasonable challenge.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Are you kidding me?  Don't make me start cross-linking posts from pre-LU13 when people were saying "Nobody wants me in groups because I can't tank, and I can't solo, and nobody wants me to MT in their raids, and it's all because Guardians can do it all and I can't, so Guardians should be nerfed."</p><p>And then don't make me link posts from post-LU13 when people were saying "Haha Guardians, you got what you deserved because now you can't solo like you used to, and now you aren't the best in groups, and now people want Bruisers and Monks instead and we deserve it because we took so much crap from Guardians and etc. etc. etc."</p><p>Raid content was trivialized (whatever) because of many reasons, Guardians being 1/10th of 1% of the reason why.  I don't accept your argument. </p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>Having multiple stunns, heals and tsuarmi is utility. Guardians do not have any significant utility that would even begin to rival what is shown. If we did then maybe we would have a chance at getting those guys to even 50%.</p><p>Any brawler that comes here and says Guardians just need a slight boost in DPS is a total hypocrite. Even if Guardisns have a 1-5% superior tanking ability (Which I do not believe), that doesn't touch, <font color="#ff9900">NOT EVEN BEGIN TO TOUCH</font>, the disparity in utlity and DPS.</p><p>How can the developers not come here and comment on this?</p><p>Oh yeah, the only developer comment we have gotten in over 2 months is one to imply that Guardians are overpowered since a level 50 in the very best armor and weapons they could get can kill a yellow no arrow mob with auto attack only.</p>

[Lyrus]

I don't agree with all the changes that were made, (taunt resists, etc). I'm just merely trying to set the facts straight. When things get distorted, that's usually about the time Gaige shows up. So aside from the pot shot calling me a n00b, everything else was fine and dandy.<div></div>

[Shizzirri]

<div></div>Point being you shouldn't be able to solo HEROIC mobs (unless there like green con maybe), if sony wanted characters to be able to solo them, they would of made them solo mobs.  Theres obviously a balancing problem if a certain class can solo a heroic mob 2 levels higher than their level just by chain stunning/mezzing/fearing whatever. 

[Sir_Halbarad]

I don't think anybody here is calling for a brawler nerf... well I know I don't.You have been a furious defender of the combat change Gaige and your reason was: Not all Fighters can fulfill their role as well as the others.While Combat Revamp levelled all Fighters in the tanking field, ALL other fields were left out.One of the reasons was: Brawlers need their dps to hold aggro... Which is <Censored>Now we are stuck with useless CA's, lowest dps available and a general "fun feeling" making baby jesus cry.If we all tank the same, we should all do the same damage.So, I and all the others here don't want a brawler nerf, we want a Guardian boost - because we were left standing in the rain <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Lyrus]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lyrus-D wrote:Yes, buff stacking was the mechanism, but the complaint was not about solo, the complaint was about raid content being trivialized, thus requiring even more outrageous encounters to even present a reasonable challenge.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Are you kidding me?  Don't make me start cross-linking posts from pre-LU13 when people were saying "Nobody wants me in groups because I can't tank, and I can't solo, and nobody wants me to MT in their raids, and it's all because Guardians can do it all and I can't, so Guardians should be nerfed."</p><p>And then don't make me link posts from post-LU13 when people were saying "Haha Guardians, you got what you deserved because now you can't solo like you used to, and now you aren't the best in groups, and now people want Bruisers and Monks instead and we deserve it because we took so much crap from Guardians and etc. etc. etc."</p><p>Raid content was trivialized (whatever) because of many reasons, Guardians being 1/10th of 1% of the reason why.  I don't accept your argument. </p><hr></blockquote>Two words, calm down. If you don't accept my argument, fine, I'm just posting what the devs posted to justify the guardian changes.</span></div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shizzirri wrote:<div></div>Point being you shouldn't be able to solo HEROIC mobs (unless there like green con maybe), if sony wanted characters to be able to solo them, they would of made them solo mobs.  Theres obviously a balancing problem if a certain class can solo a heroic mob 2 levels higher than their level just by chain stunning/mezzing/fearing whatever. <hr></blockquote><p>True, I agree.  I was/am very against being able to solo heroic mobs, unless they're low green.  I can do so, and I'm sitting here saying that.</p><p>HOWEVER...</p><p>If your contention Katrinity is that heroic mobs shouldn't be solo'd, I would assume that your problem isn't with the brawler classes but in general, and the first ones to be looked at would obviously have to be summoners, and then the predators/swashbucklers and of course the brawlers are somewhere in there... although I will vehemently argue that bruisers are better solo'ers tenfold than monks, and yes MY GEAR AND SPELLS to matter, especially in that fight where I actually killed a 62+++.</p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><p>Palys cant solo very well either, so dont feel too bad, although probably a bit better than Guards.  Our single target DPS is just like yours, its our AE than gives us semi decent DPS with grp mobs. Either way, plate tanks need a boost in DPS to raise us to roughly the same tanking and DPS lvl as that of monks and bruisers.</p><p>My super, uber single target attack is on a 1 minute timer and does 600 to 1000 damage. Looking at those bruiser spells makes me just a confused as you guys. I wish I could find the link that shows the SS of the bruiser DPS.. I mean, WOW.</p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sir_Halbarad wrote:I don't think anybody here is calling for a brawler nerf... well I know I don't.You have been a furious defender of the combat change Gaige and your reason was: Not all Fighters can fulfill their role as well as the others.  <font color="#ffff00">Yup, I know.</font>While Combat Revamp levelled all Fighters in the tanking field, ALL other fields were left out.  <font color="#ffff00">Well... lol, honestly I think a lot of this stems back onto a more vocal section of the guardian community who had the mantra "give up everything, give me tanking".  It seems that, unfortunately, you gave up a lot of things and are now struggling (aside from raid tanking) to find a niche.  So yeah I can see how guardians can at times feel left out.  I don't think its as bad as some guardians make it out to be though -- using words like unplayable.  That to me seems like overdramatization.</font>One of the reasons was: Brawlers need their dps to hold aggro... Which is.  <font color="#ffff00">When I first cited this, I was told I was wrong.  I then changed my thinking and was like okay, I'm wrong lol.  (I said we give up taunts for dps).  Now though, it seems like the case.</font>Now we are stuck with useless CA's, lowest dps available and a general "fun feeling" making baby jesus cry.  <font color="#ffff00">Useless CAs I don't agree with, lowest dps is pretty much uncontested by anyone I think, and the fun feeling is subjective, but seems to be prevelant.</font>If we all tank the same, we should all do the same damage.  <font color="#ffff00">Meh, I dunno.  I think you should do <em>more</em> damage than you do, but you have to look at taunting/aggro in there to balance the equation, or it tips the scales too far in the other direction.</font>So, I and all the others here don't want a brawler nerf, we want a Guardian boost - because we were left standing in the rain <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <font color="#ffff00">Yeah I know, well at least I hope so <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><hr></blockquote>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sir_Halbarad wrote:I don't think anybody here is calling for a brawler nerf... well I know I don't.You have been a furious defender of the combat change Gaige and your reason was: Not all Fighters can fulfill their role as well as the others.  <font color="#ffff00">Yup, I know.</font>While Combat Revamp levelled all Fighters in the tanking field, ALL other fields were left out.  <font color="#ffff00">Well... lol, honestly I think a lot of this stems back onto a more vocal section of the guardian community who had the mantra "give up everything, give me tanking".  It seems that, unfortunately, you gave up a lot of things and are now struggling (aside from raid tanking) to find a niche.  So yeah I can see how guardians can at times feel left out.  I don't think its as bad as some guardians make it out to be though -- using words like unplayable.  That to me seems like overdramatization.</font>One of the reasons was: Brawlers need their dps to hold aggro... Which is.  <font color="#ffff00">When I first cited this, I was told I was wrong.  I then changed my thinking and was like okay, I'm wrong lol.  (I said we give up taunts for dps).  Now though, it seems like the case.</font>Now we are stuck with useless CA's, lowest dps available and a general "fun feeling" making baby jesus cry.  <font color="#ffff00">Useless CAs I don't agree with, lowest dps is pretty much uncontested by anyone I think, and the fun feeling is subjective, but seems to be prevelant.</font>If we all tank the same, we should all do the same damage.  <font color="#ffff00">Meh, I dunno.  I think you should do <em>more</em> damage than you do, but you have to look at taunting/aggro in there to balance the equation, or it tips the scales too far in the other direction.</font>So, I and all the others here don't want a brawler nerf, we want a Guardian boost - because we were left standing in the rain <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <font color="#ffff00">Yeah I know, well at least I hope so <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote>No, we are definitely not unplayable. It just takes us longer, costs us more plat and requires more friends to achieve what others do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Not all our CA's are useless of course, but having a zillion ways to intercept damage is unneeded if we can get the job done - hold aggro. So, a first step would to delete all our intercept CA's and replace them with either Group Hate Syphon, maybe a long duration Stun without a shield or other attack CA's. Atm, the ONLY use to Intercede is using it on the Raid MT combined with tower of stone.Taunting/Aggro in the balance? Well, the only thing that makes a difference is the 2nd Encounter Taunt Guardians get and the Unforgiving Strike Line. For the hate to work, those attacks must hit.Comparing my Monk (Lvl 49 atm) and my Guardian, I see the following differences (again, mind you, not calling for brawler nerf)- Monk can tank dual wielding - even in def stance, he has much better dps than Guard with Shield and 1 hander.- Monk's special Aggro Utility (Hate Proc) is much better to get aggro back.- Guardian's special Aggro Utility (Reactive Hate Proc) is better to keep aggro (stunned)- Monk's Mitigation Boost Buff just roots him, while Guardian's Wall of Might lowers our dps even more- Can't compare Auto-Riposte Skill to Tower of Stone since my monk doesnt have that yet, but from what I know about Tower of Stone, riposting seems way better.In summary, my monk has no aggro problem because of his dps. My Guardian has aggro problems because of resisted taunts and no noticable dps.Just apart from the fact that Monks are a truckload more fun to play!Only comparing Monks and Guards because those 2 are the only classes I have first-hand knowledge of.</span><div></div>

[Pry]

<div></div><div>I think the word "unplayable" effectively means that when you log on and you get smited by triple down arrow blue mobs, when you get owned in a PvP arena, when you can't complete quests because they require groups that don't want you, when your gear is nerfed and your ability to get new gear is either too expensive, or beyond the reach of you because the mobs you used to kill you cannot kill now because of the nerfs to your combat abilities and gear, and you have no money to purchase new gear nor the ability to get any, and you are a provisioner because food had more value to you before the live update, and now you are stuck logging in and trying to muddle through gray quests for something to do....</div><div> </div><div>Yeah, that would be my definition of unplayable.</div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><div> </div><div>Yeah, that would be my definition of unplayable.<hr></div></blockquote>It would also be an overexaggeration, but you knew that.

[Pry]

<div></div>If account sharing wasn't against the rules, I would be happy to let you sign into my account so you could see for yourself <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Sir_Halbarad wrote:I don't think anybody here is calling for a brawler nerf... well I know I don't.</p><p><font color="#66ff00">No one is what we are calling for is the DPS and Utility advantage to be given to the guardain class. In the DPS apartment the scale to measure should be if brawler X can tank Mob Y then Guardian X should also be able to tank Mob Y PERIOD. </font>You have been a furious defender of the combat change Gaige and your reason was: Not all Fighters can fulfill their role as well as the others.  <font color="#ffff00">Yup, I know.</font>While Combat Revamp levelled all Fighters in the tanking field, ALL other fields were left out.  <font color="#ffff00">Well... lol, honestly I think a lot of this stems back onto a more vocal section of the guardian community who had the mantra "give up everything, give me tanking".  It seems that, unfortunately, you gave up a lot of things and are now struggling (aside from raid tanking) to find a niche. </font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">That is all guardians ever wanted and now it isnt even a consideration in the game, if SOE put guardians ahead in the tanking ability the number of fighter classes that are not playing guardians would multiply by a factor of 8,678,435,654,321.985 (using the dev abacus) </font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">The reality is this Brawlers are either nerfed (which I dont want to see) or guardians are brought up to par with brawler in DPS and Utility. SOE has a history of correcting issues using one of the methods above, bet you can guess which one it will be. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">So yeah I can see how guardians can at times feel left out.  I don't think its as bad as some guardians make it out to be though -- using words like unplayable.  That to me seems like overdramatization. </font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">Funny you used those same words and even stronger prior to LU13.</font>One of the reasons was: Brawlers need their dps to hold aggro... Which is.  <font color="#ffff00">When I first cited this, I was told I was wrong.  I then changed my thinking and was like okay, I'm wrong lol.  (I said we give up taunts for dps).  Now though, it seems like the case.</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">And yet evey typical brawler response if this issue surfaces in a thread here always boils down to well your better at AOE taunts and Im not. Oh so that makes it all better? I thnk not. Let me jut come out and say this</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">"SOE will not put Guardians back  to the taking damage position they were. With that being accepted why cant I do equal damage that any other tank can if they can tank what I can?" If, as it is always stated here, Guardians can tank 1% of the mobs that all other fighters cannot  then I should be able to do the 1& less damage then the best DPS tank in game PERIOD."</font>Now we are stuck with useless CA's, lowest dps available and a general "fun feeling" making baby jesus cry.  <font color="#ffff00">Useless CAs I don't agree with, lowest dps is pretty much uncontested by anyone I think, and the fun feeling is subjective, but seems to be prevelant.</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">Yes it is widley or commonly occuring, exisitng, accepted  and practiced.</font></p><p>If we all tank the same, we should all do the same damage.  <font color="#ffff00">Meh, I dunno.  I think you should do <em>more</em> damage than you do, but you have to look at taunting/aggro in there to balance the equation, or it tips the scales too far in the other direction.</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">You dunno because you dont want to see the DPS field brought to balance.</font>So, I and all the others here don't want a brawler nerf, we want a Guardian boost - because we were left standing in the rain <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <font color="#ffff00">Yeah I know, well at least I hope so <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Rahge

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>Ya know. I really do want some kind of response from a developer from this. I'm going to PM all of them on the list this thread and ask for a comment. Maybe they will reply or maybe I will just have to keep sending the link.</p><p>I enjoy my Guardian when my friends around but it just makes me SICK when I seen their stupid warped idea of balance. If I did work like this at .. well work I'd get fired.</p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>There. Sent like 10 PM's. Hope I didn't double up on any of them. I really want a response so I don't want to be annoying other than what is needed to actually get a response.</p>

[JudyJudy]

<div></div><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>First off, I come here not to flame, point fingers or simply kick you when you’re down, but will do my best to add to the discussion with the utmost respect and consideration to the topic as possible.<span>  </span>With that said…</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff">Moorgard said:</font></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffffff">“We aren't in any way trying to get rid of soloing. In fact, we did extensive playtests with every class at baseline gear and abilities (handcrafted and Apprentice III) to make sure everybody could do it. Those of us testing deliberately picked classes we were unfamiliar with, so I'm sure we didn't play as efficiently as most of you do. But we still managed to defeat white-con no-arrow mobs of every archetype. If there were cases where we couldn't, we enhanced the abilities of that class until we could.”</font></em></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffff00"><span>“That said, </span><b><span>soloing isn't meant to necessarily be equally efficient for everyone</span></b><span>. Just as some classes have a lot of benefits they bring to a group, some classes have ablilites that work exceptionally well for soloing. But we've worked hard to ensure that everyone can solo if they chose to do so.”</span></font></em></span></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=134146#M134146" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=134146#M134146</a></font></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>Your solo’ing efficiency argument is a moot at best - For any class.<span>  </span>It’s been pressed that brawlers and plate wearers tank equally and thus should DPS, solo, give utility or add to a raid (when not in the MT position) equally.<span>  There have been many good points to support a change - However, b</span>alanced solo’ing is not part of their plan as of now as the above statement proves.<span>  </span>So, if you plan to solo as a guardian – break out the Cheetos and Mountain Dew, because you’ll be hunkering down for a long night.</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>Please understand that I do not play a guardian and thus won’t even touch on the concept of what you need or don’t need.</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>However, keep in mind, from what I’ve read, many brawlers have supported a change to the guardian class in some way.<span>  </span>Gaige, Phay, Gungo, Junaru have all given multiple ways to improve the guardian class – whether you agree or not, is not the issue.<span>  </span>The issue is that even though they may seem to be a thorn in your side, they’ve all agreed on one thing:<span>  </span></em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>The guardian class needs to be improved.</em></font></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffffff">This perhaps is not the response you want Wasuna, but it is what it is.</font></em></span></p><p> </p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>JudyJudy wrote:<div></div><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>First off, I come here not to flame, point fingers or simply kick you when you’re down, but will do my best to add to the discussion with the utmost respect and consideration to the topic as possible.<span>  </span>With that said…</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff">Moorgard said:</font></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffffff">“We aren't in any way trying to get rid of soloing. In fact, we did extensive playtests with every class at baseline gear and abilities (handcrafted and Apprentice III) to make sure everybody could do it. Those of us testing deliberately picked classes we were unfamiliar with, so I'm sure we didn't play as efficiently as most of you do. But we still managed to defeat white-con no-arrow mobs of every archetype. If there were cases where we couldn't, we enhanced the abilities of that class until we could.”</font></em></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffff00"><span>“That said, </span><b><span>soloing isn't meant to necessarily be equally efficient for everyone</span></b><span>. Just as some classes have a lot of benefits they bring to a group, some classes have ablilites that work exceptionally well for soloing. But we've worked hard to ensure that everyone can solo if they chose to do so.”</span></font></em></span></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=134146#M134146" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=134146#M134146</a></font></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>Your solo’ing efficiency argument is a moot at best - For any class.<span>  </span>It’s been pressed that brawlers and plate wearers tank equally and thus should DPS, solo, give utility or add to a raid (when not in the MT position) equally.<span>  There have been many good points to support a change - However, b</span>alanced solo’ing is not part of their plan as of now as the above statement proves.<span>  </span>So, if you plan to solo as a guardian – break out the Cheetos and Mountain Dew, because you’ll be hunkering down for a long night.</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>Please understand that I do not play a guardian and thus won’t even touch on the concept of what you need or don’t need.</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>However, keep in mind, from what I’ve read, many brawlers have supported a change to the guardian class in some way.<span>  </span>Gaige, Phay, Gungo, Junaru have all given multiple ways to improve the guardian class – whether you agree or not, is not the issue.<span>  </span>The issue is that even though they may seem to be a thorn in your side, they’ve all agreed on one thing:<span>  </span></em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>The guardian class needs to be improved.</em></font></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffffff">This perhaps is not the response you want Wasuna, but it is what it is.</font></em></span></p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Thank you for your last comment. We all agree that Guardians need some form of improvement. I specifically call the target areas of improvement I'd like to see DPS and Utility without any specific ideas on purpose. It's not the Guardians place to balance the game, it's is our place to point out the problems and let those that get paid to balance it do their work.</p><p>Now to your implication that looking at what we can solo is inaccurate way to look at problems with the Guardian class. The quote you placed in your post in yellow specifically said that not all classes are suppose to be able to solo the same. Ok, but that quote also implies that those that do not solo well bring more to a group that those that can solo. I ask you what a Guardian brings to a group better than any other fighter? I'm sure there are some items that a Guardian does well but it does not even begin to offset the imbalances that are shown over and over here.</p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><div>I recieved a reply from a Developer! Of course it was just to tell me they were the wrong peson to send stuff to. Maybe the others I sent will get a reply but I decided not to hold my breath.</div><div> </div><div>For the developer that replied I thank you. It's nice to see a response.</div>

[JudyJudy]

<blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<p>Now to your implication that looking at what we can solo is inaccurate way to look at problems with the Guardian class. The quote you placed in your post in yellow specifically said that not all classes are suppose to be able to solo the same. Ok, but that quote also implies that those that do not solo well bring more to a group that those that can solo. I ask you what a Guardian brings to a group better than any other fighter? I'm sure there are some items that a Guardian does well but it does not even begin to offset the imbalances that are shown over and over here.</p><hr></blockquote><p><em>You misunderstand my point, Wasuna:  I'm not trying to implicate anything.  I really don't have enough information or knowledge of the guardian class to get into any kind of debate.  Hell, to be honest, I havn't grouped with many guardians - as more than not, I play the MT role.</em></p><p><em>I was just trying to convey that the Devs seem to believe that solo'ing efficiency is different for everyone and every class.  According to Moor's post, they seem to have answered the question of:  "Should we all solo equally and as efficiently?"</em></p><p><em>They said no.</em></p><p><em>DPS, utility, what you offer groups and offering an alternate role during raid situations are topics I've seen run rampant on the guardian forums as of late - two of which, if improved, I assume will help solo ability.  As it is, however, you must take the good posts with the bad - And the good unfortunately gets overshadowed by the bad...</em></p><p><em>Btw - Thanks for not flaming the hell out of me</em></p>

[Shizzirri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>JudyJudy wrote:<blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<p>Now to your implication that looking at what we can solo is inaccurate way to look at problems with the Guardian class. The quote you placed in your post in yellow specifically said that not all classes are suppose to be able to solo the same. Ok, but that quote also implies that those that do not solo well bring more to a group that those that can solo. I ask you what a Guardian brings to a group better than any other fighter? I'm sure there are some items that a Guardian does well but it does not even begin to offset the imbalances that are shown over and over here.</p><hr></blockquote><p><em>You misunderstand my point, Wasuna:  I'm not trying to implicate anything.  I really don't have enough information or knowledge of the guardian class to get into any kind of debate.  Hell, to be honest, I havn't grouped with many guardians - as more than not, I play the MT role.</em></p><p><em>I was just trying to convey that the Devs seem to believe that solo'ing efficiency is different for everyone and every class.  According to Moor's post, they seem to have answered the question of:  "Should we all solo equally and as efficiently?"</em></p><p><em>They said no.</em></p><p><em>DPS, utility, what you offer groups and offering an alternate role during raid situations are topics I've seen run rampant on the guardian forums as of late - two of which, if improved, I assume will help solo ability.  As it is, however, you must take the good posts with the bad - And the good unfortunately gets overshadowed by the bad...</em></p><p><em>Btw - Thanks for not flaming the hell out of me</em></p><hr></blockquote><p>Your talking about soloing solo mobs, this thread is a repsonse to bruisers (and other classes) being able to solo heroic mobs.  I'm sure we're all in the same boat that all classes WILL NOT be able to take out SOLO mobs on the same basis.  However when someone regardless of class, skill, whatever can solo a yellow HEROIC mob, then there's a game flaw.  I don't care if its a guardian, brigand, necro, templar, sk, whatever, heroic mobs are meant to be mobs taken out by groups not individuals, that's what this thread's (the original post at least) about not guardians saying omg we need more dps so we can solo.</p><p>I'm sure even Moorguard would agree that one person should not be able to solo a blue/white/yellow heroic named mob.</p>

[mastersard]

<div>i still can't believe that any person playing any class could look at the disparity here and say "Moorgard said..." and that makes it Okay that one class from the same "archtype" can out-perform another class of the same "archtype" with such a disparity.  Even sighting the slight edge in tanking (which most guardians don't see, since we dont raid), the difference in class functionality is still huge.</div><div> </div><div>The root problem is still that SOE is trying to balance a game based on a raid instance, a part of the game that occupies ony 1%, if that, of the total game content.  100% of the game balanced based on 1% of content.</div>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>JudyJudy wrote:<p><em>I'm not trying to implicate anything.  </em></p><hr></blockquote><p>Ypur correct. Your not trying to imply anything. What you are trying to do is address what we here on this froum is a very big Guardian issue by quoting a reply from a Developer. That quote specifically addresses what you want it to in very clear language. What that quote also does is bring up the whole issue most Guardian have now. That is balance. That quote very clearly says that people that can;t solo as well bring more to a group.</p><p>I ask you again, based on the little you know of Guardians, what do we bring to a group that even begins to balance out the soling ability of the different fighter classes?</p><p>All Guardians here talk about DPS, tanking ability and utility. Those are just areas that we see all fighter classes having. In the end, all the suggestions, ideas and implications (even those that say Guardians should have a clear tanking advantage) are just asking for balance.</p><p>I'll ask you straight up. If you can out utility me and out DPS me shouldn't I be able to out tank you in some amount that is comparable to the differences you have in DPS and utility? That's what balance is. I'm not asking to be a better tank since SOE has driven the nailin the coffin of that ever happening again. I'm asking to be balanced. I didn't start this thread to get others nerfed. I stated this thread to show the disparity in what my class can accomplish compared to what another class can that I'm suppose to be balanced with.</p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div>Two replies now from my PM's. Both from content Developers politly saying they are the wrong people to send this stuff to. NO replies from any mechanics or balance Developers.

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>JudyJudy wrote:<p><em>I'm not trying to implicate anything.  </em></p><hr></blockquote><p>Ypur correct. Your not trying to imply anything. What you are trying to do is address what we here on this froum is a very big Guardian issue by quoting a reply from a Developer. That quote specifically addresses what you want it to in very clear language. What that quote also does is bring up the whole issue most Guardian have now. That is balance. That quote very clearly says that people that can;t solo as well bring more to a group.</p><p>I ask you again, based on the little you know of Guardians, what do we bring to a group that even begins to balance out the soling ability of the different fighter classes?</p><p>All Guardians here talk about DPS, tanking ability and utility. Those are just areas that we see all fighter classes having. In the end, all the suggestions, ideas and implications (even those that say Guardians should have a clear tanking advantage) are just asking for balance.</p><p><strong><font color="#cc0099"><u>I'll ask you straight up. If you can out utility me and out DPS me shouldn't I be able to out tank you in some amount that is comparable to the differences you have in DPS and utility?</u></font></strong> That's what balance is. I'm not asking to be a better tank since SOE has driven the nailin the coffin of that ever happening again. I'm asking to be balanced. I didn't start this thread to get others nerfed. I stated this thread to show the disparity in what my class can accomplish compared to what another class can that I'm suppose to be balanced with.</p><hr></blockquote>You know gut reaction here is.  If Bralwers are happy being able to solo triple up heroics 2 levels higher than them.  Then they have abosolutly no justification to complain when they cant tank a raid mob.  NOPE.  You solo .. you seem happy in solo'ing things guards only dream about.  So its ONLY FAIR that you DREAM about tanking epics.  Like I said GUT reaction and personally the attitude some trolls are showing that "Theres something wrong with guardians.. Yep... were not going to let you suggest anything to take care of that... but yeah your messed up" is making my gut grumble.

[Greyform]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span>I've spent as much time on the Guardian board as I do on the Monk board and 90% of the time other classes agree with the Guardians that you need a DPS boost. We don't always agree how much or how to go about it. I personally think the answer is in your Offencive stance.But time and time again you still manage to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like it's all other classes fault. Truth is I feel sorry for the mature Guardians asking for a boost. I feel sorry that they have a bunch of whinner on their side who don't know how to get things done. Posting about how another class can do something you can't isn't going to get you the boost you need/want. What you might end up doing is getting Monks nerfed also. And the truth is Fear and Mez is what lets the Brusier solo those mobs not DPS or tanking, Monks don't have eithe<hr></span></div></blockquote><p> </p><p>Gaige wrote:</p><div></div><div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Colossaltitan wrote:<div></div>Solo'n Mullok in Hidden Cache was a little challenging.  <font color="#ffff00">Did it.</font>Solo'n Roost.  <font color="#ffff00">Can't do the Harpy named, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] stifle.  Mez > *</font>Solo'n Aysor the Mighty, Aysor's Eye.  <font color="#ffff00">Haven't tried.</font>Being Un-beatable in duels (I know, sorta soloing lol....)  <font color="#ffff00">Ledbetter beat you.</font>Umm, Lots of other things that I'm too lazy to list; But I've probably done it. Lol<hr></blockquote><p>I solo'd the human form of the lvl 62+++ named that spawns in Golden Sceptre for the Ring of Fate quest <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p></p><hr><p> </p><p>If monks are nerfed Please don't come here to the guardian forums blaming guardians. As Gaige has said many time "I don't work for SOE" well neither do we.</p><p>Since LU13 we as a community (guardians) have been asking for TRUE balance. Not this Unsung Hero bologna that Steve D. was selling.</p><p>The thread that the OP linked shows how unbalanced the fighter classes really are. What is even more infuriating is how many of those who participated in that thread ALSO spend so much time trolling our boards and mocking our efforts.</p><p>What has been stated many times (and ignored each time) has been that the gap between each fighter class in one aspect may be narrow (tanking) but in others that gap is a huge chasm (DPS and utility).</p><p>A lot of players (myself included) have been lost in that abyss by SOE. Yet for some reason this development team has chosen to ignore the inequity that they created between each of the fighter classes.</p><p>I can only guess as to why. But (to me) the reason seems obvious........Apathy</p>

[Rah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>JudyJudy wrote:<div></div><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>First off, I come here not to flame, point fingers or simply kick you when you’re down, but will do my best to add to the discussion with the utmost respect and consideration to the topic as possible.<span>  </span>With that said…</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff">Moorgard said:</font></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffffff">“We aren't in any way trying to get rid of soloing. In fact, we did extensive playtests with every class at baseline gear and abilities (handcrafted and Apprentice III) to make sure everybody could do it. Those of us testing deliberately picked classes we were unfamiliar with, so I'm sure we didn't play as efficiently as most of you do. But we still managed to defeat white-con no-arrow mobs of every archetype. If there were cases where we couldn't, we enhanced the abilities of that class until we could.”</font></em></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffff00"><span>“That said, </span><b><span>soloing isn't meant to necessarily be equally efficient for everyone</span></b><span>. Just as some classes have a lot of benefits they bring to a group, some classes have ablilites that work exceptionally well for soloing. But we've worked hard to ensure that everyone can solo if they chose to do so.”</span></font></em></span></p><p><span><em><span><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ff0000"><strong><u><strike>Soloing yellow heroic mobs when compared to the EVEN CON WHITE MOBS is a BIG difference</strike></u></strong></font>. Like it or not your imbalanced. It doesnt matter how you portray it, what you think there plan is the fact remains that as of this moment you are overpowered. </font></span></em></span></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=134146#M134146" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=134146#M134146</a></font></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>Your solo’ing efficiency argument is a moot at best - For any class.<span>  </span>It’s been pressed that brawlers and plate wearers tank equally and thus should DPS, solo, give utility or add to a raid (when not in the MT position) equally.<span>  There have been many good points to support a change - However, b</span>alanced solo’ing is not part of their plan as of now as the above statement proves.<span>  </span>So, if you plan to solo as a guardian – break out the Cheetos and Mountain Dew, because you’ll be hunkering down for a long night.</em></font></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#66ff00">If it is a point that all the guardians are posting about, then it isnt Moot to the Guardians that are posting about it, now is it?  </font></em></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>Please understand that I do not play a guardian and thus won’t even touch on the concept of what you need or don’t need.</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>However, keep in mind, from what I’ve read, many brawlers have supported a change to the guardian class in some way.<span>  </span>Gaige, Phay, Gungo, Junaru have all given multiple ways to improve the guardian class – whether you agree or not, is not the issue.<span>  </span>The issue is that even though they may seem to be a thorn in your side, they’ve all agreed on one thing:<span>  </span></em></font></span></p><p><span><em><span><font color="#66ff00">So you are not adverse to any suggestions any Guardians may have on the brawler class? Thanks we will start posting our thoughts on how to change and balance your class, whether you agree or not. Buy the way many guardians are driving brawlers of varying levels and all of them have come here and posted the same general comments. Brawlers are overpowered. Like it or not its what the reality of the current game is. You are also not the only class to come to the same conclusion that the guardian class needs to be improved.</font></span></em></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>The guardian class needs to be improved.</em></font></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffffff">This perhaps is not the response you want Wasuna, but it is what it is.</font></em></span></p><p><span><em></em></span> </p><p><span><em></em></span> </p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Rahge

[JudyJudy]

<div></div><p><em>Please understand, I'm not saying that things are "okay" just because a developer said it was.  I'm merely referring a reply from a Dev to better understand why other classes solo better than others.</em></p><p><em>Shirrizi:  I agree - that was most definitely not part of the Dev's plan.  Players are crafty and very resourceful.   Many a Dev has admitted to being surprised at the ability players can utilize their skills.  Do I think that Aysor the Mighty and Aysor's Eye should be solo'able?  Hell no.  Not by a long shot.  Am I surprised that there are some that found a way?  Absolutely not.  Phay is an amazing player - probably one of the best brawlers game wide.</em></p><p><em>To answer your question, Wasuna:  Yes - if I can out DPS you and provide more utility than you in a group or raid setting and yet our tanking skills remain the same, then yes - something needs to give.  What that something may be - I will leave up to you and your fellow guardians to convince the Devs, as you know your class best.</em></p><p><em>Warbird:  I've never complained about anything concerning my class, whether it's tanking epic mobs or not.  I would never try to "not let you suggest anything" or keep anyone from improving their own class.  I think many of you have taken a valiant effort, but unfortunately many of them are engulfed by the flames from both sides.</em></p><p><em>I'm very happy with my class.  I was happy with my class pre-LU13.  I will always enjoy the monk class - as is my way.  Whether my class is the flavor of the month or at the bottom of the totem pole - I will find a way to play and enjoy it.  I truly hope one day the many of you can find that same enjoyment again.</em></p><p><em></em> </p>

[Lyrus]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Shizzirri wrote:<div></div><p>I'm sure even Moorguard would agree that one person should not be able to solo a blue/white/yellow heroic named mob.</p><hr></blockquote>Sometimes, it all comes down to a combination of luck and skill, with results that might be impossible to ever reproduce again. Take for instance one of my drinking buddies plays a wizard, and I watched as he soloed Dukar for Ring of fate, which made for a pretty interesting sight. Dukar knocked him down to 2% life on the first hit, but he managed to get a root to stick, along with a snare I guess which bought him time for when his roots broke early, and they did. Just as he ran out of power, root broke and Dukar took off running at him while surging tempest did its second to last tick and Dukar dropped dead right in front of him.With that said, some classes can just flat out accomplish more solo than others with what they've been given. A wizards ability to solo hinges on the fact that they can keep a mob immobile, but if you take that away from them, they don't stand a chance solo unless they can kill mobs in 1 shot. This ability has them walking a very thin line though, as with a premature root breaking, then there's a good chance that a named mob can 1 round them. So with the guts to even think about attempting something like this, there comes extreme risk, and by no means did it look easy.With that said, let's not say Nerf Wizards, or nerf bruisers, but instead improve guardians.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Lyrus-D on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:11 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Lyrus-D on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:12 PM</span></p>

[Greyform]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>JudyJudy wrote:<div></div><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>First off, I come here not to flame, point fingers or simply kick you when you’re down, but will do my best to add to the discussion with the utmost respect and consideration to the topic as possible.<span>  </span>With that said…</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff">Moorgard said:</font></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffffff">“We aren't in any way trying to get rid of soloing. In fact, we did extensive playtests with every class at baseline gear and abilities (handcrafted and Apprentice III) to make sure everybody could do it. Those of us testing deliberately picked classes we were unfamiliar with, so I'm sure we didn't play as efficiently as most of you do. But we still managed to defeat white-con no-arrow mobs of every archetype. If there were cases where we couldn't, we enhanced the abilities of that class until we could.”</font></em></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffff00"><span>“That said, </span><b><span>soloing isn't meant to necessarily be equally efficient for everyone</span></b><span>. Just as some classes have a lot of benefits they bring to a group, some classes have ablilites that work exceptionally well for soloing. But we've worked hard to ensure that everyone can solo if they chose to do so.”</span></font></em></span></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=134146#M134146" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=134146#M134146</a></font></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>Your solo’ing efficiency argument is a moot at best - For any class.<span>  </span>It’s been pressed that brawlers and plate wearers tank equally and thus should DPS, solo, give utility or add to a raid (when not in the MT position) equally.<span>  There have been many good points to support a change - However, b</span>alanced solo’ing is not part of their plan as of now as the above statement proves.<span>  </span>So, if you plan to solo as a guardian – break out the Cheetos and Mountain Dew, because you’ll be hunkering down for a long night.</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>Please understand that I do not play a guardian and thus won’t even touch on the concept of what you need or don’t need.</em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>However, keep in mind, from what I’ve read, many brawlers have supported a change to the guardian class in some way.<span>  </span>Gaige, Phay, Gungo, Junaru have all given multiple ways to improve the guardian class – whether you agree or not, is not the issue.<span>  </span>The issue is that even though they may seem to be a thorn in your side, they’ve all agreed on one thing:<span>  </span></em></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"><em>The guardian class needs to be improved.</em></font></span></p><p><span><em><font color="#ffffff">This perhaps is not the response you want Wasuna, but it is what it is.</font></em></span></p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Judy, I could have taken most of this argument and applied it to the guardian ability to tank pre LU13.</p><p>And it would not have been right then either.</p>

[Crim001]

<div></div><p>Me pre 13=happy</p><p>Me post 13=verge of canceling account</p><p>Why?- Only removing everything I've ever learned and making the class incapable of its main job-tanking. Brawlers get DPS to help tank...that's a major given. Crusaders get spells....another given. It appears Warriors are the ones that split...Zerks get DPS, but guards get......lemme think.....hmmm......I'll have to get back to you on that.</p><p>IMO this is the problem we've been debating over. Each class gets a certain ability, flair, whatever you want to call it that improves, sometimes greatly, their ability to play. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, if you have very, very little to work with, you won't get too much accomplished. BTW.....at level 56 with quelling strike master II....I hit a whopping.....844 damage I think. Not sure what the blast upgrade will be, but if it hits over 1k I'll be surprised.</p><p>The original post shows the semi-extreme cases. My record....quite proud of it too.....I was able to solo the level 48 shrouded pounders in SS, haven't tried anything harder since spells are usually involved and resists are the guards downfall solo, w/o potions and fabled gear mind you. So even if you look at the general area, guards ARE missing something. But as we are caught in the middle ground, it is difficult, as stated in another post, to give us something without making us another class.</p><p>As for other people who don't play the class they post in...stop flaming and starting debates off of your experience w/ guards(while helpful, I have yet to see a constructive post with this) or your own class and stop accusing us trying to nerf you.</p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crim001 wrote:<div></div><p>Me pre 13=happy</p><p>Me post 13=verge of canceling account</p><p>Why?- Only removing everything I've ever learned and<font color="#ffff00"> making the class incapable of its main job-tanking.</font></p><hr></blockquote>Please don't tell the guardians in my guild that, it'd be upsetting for them to realize they aren't able to tank.

[Pry]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crim001 wrote:<div></div><p>Me pre 13=happy</p><p>Me post 13=verge of canceling account</p><p>Why?- Only removing everything I've ever learned and<font color="#ffff00"> making the class incapable of its main job-tanking.</font></p><hr></blockquote>Please don't tell the guardians in my guild that, it'd be upsetting for them to realize they aren't able to tank.<hr></blockquote>I suspect that your guild's Guardians, being on end-game content with end-game gear are the exception rather than the rule <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Elusi]

<div></div>Yet another thread with no official responce and Gaige running rampant in it inciting the community.

[zabor]

guardians are still the best raid tank. That's what you wanted to be when you rolled the class, right? If you want to solo, roll a monk. We received a similar reply when we were asking for better tanking ability pre-LU13.

[Storm_Runner]

<div></div>I know they're scrapping the archtype system but bear with me a moment.  The final subclasses are supposed to be fairly close to each other.  Wizzies and Warlocks both do great dps but Warlocks excel at AoE damage and Wizzies at single-target DD.  Rangers do great ranged damage and assassins do great melee damage.  With Brawlers both subclasses do really good damage but Monks are a bit more defensive and Bruisers a bit more offensive.  Same deal with Crusaders...SK = more offensive and Pally = more defensive.  Also the subclasses each fill a certain niche:  Brawlers are the high damage / light armor / martial artists; Crusaders are sort of a fighter/caster/priest hybrid; and warriors are heavy armor/ heavy weapons specialists.  That being said I think that we aren't nearly as close to our Beserker brethren with our offense vs. defense ratio as the other subclasses I've mentioned are.  While we might be close in our tanking and utility to beserkers we are lacking in the dps comparison.  The beserkers I've grouped with do really good damage especially AoE damage and they tank as well as if not better than me.  I'm not counting raids because I'm not big enough to really do many raids unless you count a few for heritage quests.  But as far as the offense vs. defense ratio goes guardians need some help there.  If we are 10% more defensive then we should do 10% less dps.  Currently the gap is quite a bit more than 10%.  Maybe the guard should be a single target DD specialist while the beserker is an AoE machine.  I think that if a Beserker and a Guardian are both in defensive stance then the guard should have a better defensive edge, say 10%, and the beserker should do 10% more damage.  When both are in offensive stance the guard should still be 10% better at defense and do 10% less damage than a beserker.  A guard in offensive stance should do the same damage as a beserker in defensive stance, possibly more since I'm not sure how that ratio would work out.  I don't want to do the same damage as a brawler, but I do think we should do more damage and be closer to our Beserker brethren.  I've said it before and I'll say it again...I don't want anyone nerfed, not brawlers, not beserkers, not anyone.  What I want is for guards to be fixed.

[Ladicav]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:guardians are still the best raid tank. That's what you wanted to be when you rolled the class, right? If you want to solo, roll a monk. We received a similar reply when we were asking for better tanking ability pre-LU13.<hr></blockquote><p>That's a very simplistic view. I didn't envisage myself becoming a raid tank. Many Guardians in this community aren't a raid MT. Only a small percentage of Guardians would actually end up being the main MT for a guild.. And even then, some berzkers, paladins, SK, and brawlers probably also envisioned themselves becoming a raid tank also, does that mean they should suck eggs also? As a monk do you solo all the time? Is that why you created the class? Do you believe all the monks created their chars because they wished to solo and Guardians created their class so they could raid tank? If that is the case, why was there a whole change in the combat system to allow all the other classes to be able to tank as well as a Guardian if all they wanted to do was solo? By your logic, we got bent over twice as much as I originally thought.</p><p>And after all that, what does your response have anything to do with a fighter class that are able to take down <em>^^^ heroic named mobs of comparable or higher level than themselves</em>? You regard this as fair? Or even balanced?</p><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:34 AM</span></p>

[zabor]

<blockquote><hr>Ladicav wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>That's a very simplistic view. I didn't envisage myself becoming a raid tank. Many Guardians in this community aren't a raid MT.</p><hr></blockquote>If you dont want to raid tank, don't roll a raid tank.

[Ladicav]

<div></div><div></div><p>Sounds like a response from someone who just got cornered.</p><p>Maybe you should think about things a little deeper before you post.</p><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:47 AM</span></p>

[OriginalIrongno]

<div></div><div></div><p>I dunno why everyone keeps saying Guards need more DPS? I personally feel my DPS are in check, I do however feel that our taunts should be improved. I didn't sign up as a Guardian to go out and be some uber dps class. Hell if I wanted to do that I would have made a Bezerker.</p><p>Give me a 1600 base taunt at 59 or higher whether is single or AE and make the resistance chance go down. I will never complain again so long as no other class gets TAUNTS = to my classes. As far as DPS thats fine.</p><p>On a personal note. I never have and never will be DPS as a guard, I either tank or off tank on raids. In groups I don't tank I don't play, get a DPS class instead of another tank (Guard) and the group won't suffer... I mean its just that simple.</p><p>One other note. If someone ganks aggro they learn real quick in groups exp that I form. The healer is instructed heal me and me a lone... I will keep them alive if they keep me a live. Others need to watch themselves since in some cases they need to remember to learn their class restraints not going all out the instant a mobs engaged.  Yes, there are sitautions where it doesn't matter until the Big named comes up who tanks. Example, Poets Palace with the level 64 named. Otherwise healers have NP keeping up others tanking otw up to them.</p><p>I personally see all the complaints and whineing of other guards on here a waste of breath and time. Why bother? You want to get SOE's attention send feed back or change your class to the class you deem is the "best" you are only going to hinder other good guards from getting their desrved earned Respect and potential group invites. :smileytongue:</p><p>Also, why is it people seem to forget or maybe they just never played EQ1 where Warriors had the worst aggro in the game. They probably still do. The keys there were haste, procs, AA's and hate augements. Now hate augements didn't come into play for quite sometime but hey ride the wave see what happens. Suck it up.</p><p>Message Edited by OriginalIrongnome on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:55 AM</span></p>

[Storm_Runner]

<div></div>More like a troll who just peaked out from under his bridge and got frightened by the sun.

[OriginalIrongno]

<div></div>Troll as in the race not as in MSG boards....

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>wrote:guardians are still the best raid tank. That's what you wanted to be when you rolled the class, right? If you want to solo, roll a monk. We received a similar reply when we were asking for better tanking ability pre-LU13.<hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>JudyJudy.  Its post like this that Im talking about.</p><p> </p><p>zaboron OK FINE.   Then we will just reduce your tanking ability to PRELU13 levels by your own logic thats only fair.!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

[Tro]

<div>The Dev's have already stated they are happy with the way the fighters are working out Post LU13. They did mention minor tweaks here and there but nothing Earthshattering. I certainly do not expect any big changes for us Guards..</div><div> </div><div>Just look at all the LU's since LU13 and the changes we got.. I would have thought by now they would have made some big changes. I have not seen any Dev even acknowledge this perceived lack of utility. Not one..</div><div> </div><div>SoE is famous for being Secretive on certain subjects so maybe we will be suprised.. /shrug</div><p>Message Edited by Trook on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:19 AM</span></p>

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>OriginalIrongnome wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>I dunno why everyone keeps saying Guards need more DPS? I personally feel my DPS are in check, I do however feel that our taunts should be improved. I didn't sign up as a Guardian to go out and be some uber dps class. Hell if I wanted to do that I would have made a Bezerker.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">As has been said many times we need more DPS so that soloing is not so tedious. </font></p><p>Give me a 1600 base taunt at 59 or higher whether is single or AE and make the resistance chance go down. I will never complain again so long as no other class gets TAUNTS = to my classes. As far as DPS thats fine.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">That would be no help at all when soloing, which is where I think our main problem is.</font></p><p>On a personal note. I never have and never will be DPS as a guard, I either tank or off tank on raids. In groups I don't tank I don't play, get a DPS class instead of another tank (Guard) and the group won't suffer... I mean its just that simple.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Not everyone plays the same way you do. </font></p><p>I personally see all the complaints and whineing of other guards on here a waste of breath and time. Why bother? You want to get SOE's attention send feed back or change your class to the class you deem is the "best" you are only going to hinder other good guards from getting their desrved earned Respect and potential group invites. :smileytongue:</p><blockquote><font color="#ffff00">I bother because small changes could make playing my guardian as much fun as he was to play for the first 25 levels or so (all after LU13), and this seems a good way to give this type of feedback.It in no way hinders other guardians.</font><blockquote><hr></blockquote></span><div></div></blockquote></blockquote>

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:guardians are still the best raid tank. That's what you wanted to be when you rolled the class, right? If you want to solo, roll a monk. We received a similar reply when we were asking for better tanking ability pre-LU13.<hr></blockquote>Wrong. I wanted the class with the best defense. I did not know what raids or tanks were when I made the choice.I did not play pre-LU13.</span><div></div>

[zabor]

<blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>wrote:guardians are still the best raid tank. That's what you wanted to be when you rolled the class, right? If you want to solo, roll a monk. We received a similar reply when we were asking for better tanking ability pre-LU13.<hr></blockquote><p>JudyJudy.  Its post like this that Im talking about.</p><p>zaboron OK FINE.   Then we will just reduce your tanking ability to PRELU13 levels by your own logic thats only fair.!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p><hr></blockquote>If you want to do dps like a monk, I want to tank like a guardian. It's only fair, isnt it?<blockquote><hr>pjackson wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:guardians are still the best raid tank. That's what you wanted to be when you rolled the class, right? If you want to solo, roll a monk. We received a similar reply when we were asking for better tanking ability pre-LU13.<hr></blockquote>Wrong. I wanted the class with the best defense. I did not know what raids or tanks were when I made the choice.I did not play pre-LU13.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>guess what. you are the class with the best defense.<p>Message Edited by zaboron on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:00 PM</span></p>

[stelle]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crim001 wrote:<div></div><p>Me pre 13=happy</p><p>Me post 13=verge of canceling account</p><p>Why?- Only removing everything I've ever learned and<font color="#ffff00"> making the class incapable of its main job-tanking.</font></p><hr></blockquote>Please don't tell the guardians in my guild that, it'd be upsetting for them to realize they aren't able to tank.<hr></blockquote><div>I suspect that your guild's Guardians, being on end-game content with end-game gear are the exception rather than the rule <img border="0" width="16" height="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif"></div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>LOL you think they had a bruiser tank the raid mobs to get the guardians geared up ....and then let the guardians tank?</div><div> </div><div>5 outa 6 end games guilds on our server use guardian as main tank, the 6th one uses a pally /guardian</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>stellerx wrote:<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crim001 wrote:<div></div><p>Me pre 13=happy</p><p>Me post 13=verge of canceling account</p><p>Why?- Only removing everything I've ever learned and<font color="#ffff00"> making the class incapable of its main job-tanking.</font></p><hr></blockquote>Please don't tell the guardians in my guild that, it'd be upsetting for them to realize they aren't able to tank.<hr></blockquote><div>I suspect that your guild's Guardians, being on end-game content with end-game gear are the exception rather than the rule <img border="0" width="16" height="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif"></div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>LOL you think they had a bruiser tank the raid mobs to get the guardians geared up ....and then let the guardians tank?</div><div> </div><div>5 outa 6 end games guilds on our server use guardian as main tank, the 6th one uses a pally /guardian</div><hr></blockquote>thats because they were the ones with the gear... no reason other plate wearers cant tank any content.. with the right gear.</span></div>

[Salgo]

<div></div><div></div><p><em><font size="2">Zaboron said: </font></em></p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p><em><font size="2">guess what. you are the class with the best defense.</font></em></p></blockquote><p>The Combat Update marginalized what having best defense means, IMHO. The small gap in tanking between all the fighters can can attest to that. Now since that was our niche, our specialty, our flavor, our flair, whatever you want to call it (enjoyed by Raiders and Casual Players alike) and it was effectively nerfed in the name of balance, I think most logically minded people begin to understand where the complaints are coming from.</p><p>Yet there are a few of you that apparently like to rub salt in the wounds when most of us are asking not for a Brawler nerf but for a Guardian fix....for OVERALL BALANCE! They balanced tanking and forgot about everything else! I know that this explanation will not change your mind because the salt-rubbers only wish to protect their turf and care nothing about balance. Instead you want to Tank Equally, The best DPS for a fighter, and Utility that allow you to occasionally solo Yellow Heroic mobs but of course that can't be accomplished all the time so that argument shouldn't even be brought up...it's only white heroic mobs that you can do efficiently. :smileywink: [Removed for Content] I withdraw the comment.</p><p>What a game this has become. I fee balanced...does anybody else feel balanced?</p><p>Message Edited by Salgore on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:47 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Salgore on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:47 AM</span></p>

[stelle]

<div>as a guardian im am pretty happy</div>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>More trolls. If I really thought I could ask to be made the head and shoulders best tank in the game again I would. I chooce the Guardian class becasue my experiance in beta was that they were the best tank. I played a healer in EQ1 and wanted to change. Now SOE says we all have to be balanced so I'm fine with that. Do what you will but MAKE US BALANCED. Guardians have been saying for MONTHS that we are not even close to balanced and the thread referenced above just makes it so obvious that we are not balanced that hopefully the developers will actually discuss this.</p><p>We all know SOE though. In the end the brawler classes will lose some of their stunns or mez or something. This is sad becasue this was suppose to be what these classes had as part of their utility. These classes were suppose to be balanced.</p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>stellerx wrote:<div>as a guardian im am pretty happy</div><hr></blockquote><p>I'm happy when I'm in the tank role. I can fill that quite nicely. But now we have 6 tank classes. Are you happy in a DPS or utility role? SOE balanced fighters to tank but forgot that when they made everybody else equal to the one things Guardian had they had to give themsomething else.</p><p>I group with a 60 SK all the time. We alternate tanking becasue we are both tanks. When I am not the tank I am almost useless. My buffs do not compare to his and my DPS is pathetic. Now I know that I am actually contributing but it's me knowing that I'm greatly reduing the groups effectiveness that gets me upset. Why am I a class that can tank as well as 5 other classes but can;t begin to do any of the other stuff they do.</p>

[Pry]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:<blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>wrote:guardians are still the best raid tank. That's what you wanted to be when you rolled the class, right? If you want to solo, roll a monk. We received a similar reply when we were asking for better tanking ability pre-LU13.<hr></blockquote><p>JudyJudy.  Its post like this that Im talking about.</p><p>zaboron OK FINE.   Then we will just reduce your tanking ability to PRELU13 levels by your own logic thats only fair.!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p><hr></blockquote>If you want to do dps like a monk, I want to tank like a guardian. It's only fair, isnt it?<blockquote><hr>pjackson wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:guardians are still the best raid tank. That's what you wanted to be when you rolled the class, right? If you want to solo, roll a monk. We received a similar reply when we were asking for better tanking ability pre-LU13.<hr></blockquote>Wrong. I wanted the class with the best defense. I did not know what raids or tanks were when I made the choice.I did not play pre-LU13.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>guess what. you are the class with the best defense.<p>Message Edited by zaboron on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:00 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>My favourite part of these boards is when Monks and Bruisers come on and tell Guardians what they are, and what they aren't!  As I said to previous posters, Monk boards are a forum or two below this one.  Perhaps you came here by mistake. </p><p>Anyway, my own interjection is that if you are a Monk or a Bruiser, who can solo triple up mobs two levels above you, you are good enough to tank raids.  If you are not tanking raids, then you are a newbie and should go play something more to your level, like My Pretty Ponies online.  But don't blame your woes on Guardians and especially don't try to get all sactimonious with your newbie self and pretend like you know what Guardians need and don't need.  </p><p>Thanks for stopping by!  We wish you success in all your future endeavors. </p>

[zabor]

there are guardians who are perfectly happy with lu13 so it can't have been that bad. also, posting on guardian board is not against forum rules so i am allowed to do it.

[stelle]

<div></div><div> group with a 60 SK all the time. We alternate tanking becasue we are both tanks. When I am not the tank I am almost useless. My buffs do not compare to his and my DPS is pathetic.</div><div>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Ive never truly been put in a situation where im not the main tank of a group , why let the SK tank when you could jsut do it and let him be in offensive stance with a 2hander?</div><p>Message Edited by stellerx on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:47 AM</span></p>

[Pry]

<div></div><div></div><p><strong>***REMOVED FLAME BAIT***</strong></p><p>Message Edited by StarryEyedElf on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:42 PM</span></p>

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:there are guardians who are perfectly happy with lu13 so it can't have been that bad. also, posting on guardian board is not against forum rules so i am allowed to do it.<hr></blockquote><p>Ummmmm Yeah and there were Bralwers happyy with their toon preLU13 so whats your point... NONE   Yep gotcha</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>zaboron wrote:<p>If you want to do dps like a monk, I want to tank like a guardian. It's only fair, isnt it?  <font color="#ffff00">Hmmm, you do realize that the DPS gap between monks/guardians is bigger than the tanking gap, right?  Sure guardians are the best tank, especially for raids, but it isn't by much.</font></p><hr></blockquote>So, like I've said more than a few times, guardians probably could use some higher dps and a bit more utility, as long as they scaled guardian dps with aggro generation in mind.

[Wasuna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>stellerx wrote:<div></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Ive never truly been put in a situation where im not the main tank of a group , why let the SK tank when you could jsut do it and let him be in offensive stance with a 2hander?</div><p>Message Edited by stellerx on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:47 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Becasue he made a plate class to tank also. Just before LU13 he couldn't do it as well as I could. Now that he has been balanced why is it fair to have me up front and  him behind?</p><p>Most people that come here and say they couldn't be happier with their Guardian are the ones that never looked at what they would do when they are not the tank in a group. That is what I know I'm asking for the Developers to comment on. What do I do when I'm not the tank? I put Assauge one a DPS class, do my group buffs then have fun seeing how close I can get to killing myself with Intercede and Guardian Sphere.</p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>stellerx wrote:<div></div><div> group with a 60 SK all the time. We alternate tanking becasue we are both tanks. When I am not the tank I am almost useless. My buffs do not compare to his and my DPS is pathetic.</div><div>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Ive never truly been put in a situation where im not the main tank of a group , why let the SK tank when you could jsut do it and let him be in offensive stance with a 2hander?</div><p>Message Edited by stellerx on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:47 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>if i group with other tanks i usually have them tank...  i don't even let gear/class be the determing factor...  i just ask them if they wanna...  if neither of us cares i'll /ran 100...  it seems to make groups work better...  this way there is no [Removed for Content] contest...</p><p>it also gives me a chance to see what other tanks can do...  its easier to campare x to y when you've seen them both in action...</p>

[Aethane]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>zaboron wrote:<p>If you want to do dps like a monk, I want to tank like a guardian. It's only fair, isnt it?  <font color="#ffff00">Hmmm, you do realize that the DPS gap between monks/guardians is bigger than the tanking gap, right?  Sure guardians are the best tank, especially for raids, but it isn't by much.</font></p><hr></blockquote>So, like I've said more than a few times, guardians probably could use some higher dps and a bit more utility, as long as they scaled guardian dps with aggro generation in mind.<hr></blockquote>Oh and don't forget the sheer rediculous amount of resists we get when taunting and that we have no heal at all.

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>zaboron wrote:<p>If you want to do dps like a monk, I want to tank like a guardian. It's only fair, isnt it?  <font color="#ffff00">Hmmm, you do realize that the DPS gap between monks/guardians is bigger than the tanking gap, right?  Sure guardians are the best tank, especially for raids, but it isn't by much.</font></p><hr></blockquote>So, like I've said more than a few times, guardians probably could use some higher dps and a bit more utility, as long as they scaled guardian dps with aggro generation in mind.<hr></blockquote><p>This is Gaige, a Monk, supporting the balancing of the guardian class in respect to DPS and Utility, and correcting an inflamatory statement made by another monk.  Not making them 100% equal, or giving Guards the exact same toys, but making us <em>comperable.</em></p><p>/respect for that.</p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aethane wrote:<div></div>Oh and don't forget the sheer rediculous amount of resists we get when taunting and that we have no heal at all.<hr></blockquote>Lack of a heal notwithstanding, all fighters taunts can get resisted; I would call that a fighter issue, not a guardian issue.

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aethane wrote:<div></div>Oh and don't forget the sheer rediculous amount of resists we get when taunting and that we have no heal at all.<hr></blockquote>Lack of a heal notwithstanding, all fighters taunts can get resisted; I would call that a fighter issue, not a guardian issue.<hr></blockquote><p>/agree.</p><p> </p><p>Since they have changed so many things about taunts and agro.  It might be a good idea to model taunts like thay do roots.</p><p>Fighter taunts.  Icon for taunt goes up for X amount of time and icon dissapears for the taunt just like the root.</p><p>It might be time to give all fighters a Hate over Time taunt.  What ever they do they need to address the resistability of the taunts becuase they seems to be getting resisted a lot more then they said they would.  Even to mobs a tier below the fighter.</p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:31 PM</span></p>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Aethane wrote:<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:<p>If you want to do dps like a monk, I want to tank like a guardian. It's only fair, isnt it?  <font color="#ffff00">Hmmm, you do realize that the DPS gap between monks/guardians is bigger than the tanking gap, right?  Sure guardians are the best tank, especially for raids, but it isn't by much.</font></p><hr></blockquote>So, like I've said more than a few times, guardians probably could use some higher dps and a bit more utility, as long as they scaled guardian dps with aggro generation in mind.<hr></blockquote>Oh and don't forget the sheer rediculous amount of resists we get when taunting and that we have no heal at all.<hr></blockquote>Again you act like that is a Guardian problem. It's NOT. It's a fighter problem.Also people keep putting Monks at the same level as Brusiers for soloing named mobs. The only Monk that I know of that has done anything close is </span><span>Gaige, and guess what he is one of the bester geared Monks out there with nealy 7k hps self buffed. And for the record Brusier DPS is not what lets them solo named mobs, it's fear and mez. Like someone else stated you take away root from a Wizard and he wont be able to solo, but give it to him and he will solo named. I'd love to have a mez with my Monk, man I would do crazy with it but I don't and I'm not worried that another class has it and I don't.As for Monks and other classes not posting on these boards. I've posted DPS parses from a Monk to a Guardian to help get Guardian DPS.. What have you done? You don't want Monks to post here thats fine, but remember some of us are the one trying to get the Guardian class fixed.  Some of us are doing more then alot of Guardians on these forums.</span></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><div>What Aethane is saying is that Guardians dont get <em>any</em> kind of heal or regen.  Every other fighter type does.  Pally, Monk, and Bruiser get heals, SK gets lifetap, Zerk gets regen.  Guards dont get any.  The added agro from an occasional heal would help a bit with agro, but only a bit.</div><div> </div><div>As far as taunt resists are concerned, I'd give up 1 point of possible hate from my taunts for every 1 pt of DPS i get.  DPS is a guaranteed, fixed hate generator. </div><div> </div><div><strong>DPS</strong> hate value is figured <em>after</em> the MoB has Blocked, dodged, parried, mitigated, resisted and been missed, and <em>after</em> you cast without fizzle and successfully hit.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Taunts</strong> values are what hate would be generated <em>before</em> the MoB has Blocked, dodged, parried, mitigated, resisted and been missed, and <em>before </em>you cast without fizzle and successfully hit.</div><div> </div><div>So you cant just tally up the total possible hate from Taunt CAs and compare it to the DPS of another class.  That sum would only show the <em>possible,</em> however improbable, amount of hate that could be generated.</div><div> </div><div>Resists are key.  Removing and/or lowering resists rates across the board, for all fighters, is the first step to fixing Guardians, and streamlining agro management, for <em>all</em> fighters.  Not just Guardians.</div>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><div>What Aethane is saying is that Guardians dont get <em>any</em> kind of heal or regen.  Every other fighter type does.  Pally, Monk, and Bruiser get heals, SK gets lifetap, Zerk gets regen.  Guards dont get any.  The added agro from an occasional heal would help a bit with agro, but only a bit.</div><div> </div><div>As far as taunt resists are concerned, I'd give up 1 point of possible hate from my taunts for every 1 pt of DPS i get.  DPS is a guaranteed, fixed hate generator. </div><div> </div><div><strong>DPS</strong> hate value is figured <em>after</em> the MoB has Blocked, dodged, parried, mitigated, resisted and been missed, and <em>after</em> you cast without fizzle and successfully hit.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Taunts</strong> values are what hate would be generated <em>before</em> the MoB has Blocked, dodged, parried, mitigated, resisted and been missed, and <em>before </em>you cast without fizzle and successfully hit.</div><div> </div><div>So you cant just tally up the total possible hate from Taunt CAs and compare it to the DPS of another class.  That sum would only show the <em>possible,</em> however improbable, amount of hate that could be generated.</div><div> </div><div>Resists are key.  Removing and/or lowering resists rates across the board, for all fighters, is the first step to fixing Guardians, and streamlining agro management, for <em>all</em> fighters.  Not just Guardians.</div><hr></blockquote>I think you are on the right track but I think a 1:1 ratio is off. Giving up 400 hate on a taunt for 400dps is a little out of balanced. Sadly only SOE could tell us the real number and I doubt they will..</span></div>

[Aethane]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aethane wrote:<div></div>Oh and don't forget the sheer rediculous amount of resists we get when taunting and that we have no heal at all.<hr></blockquote>Lack of a heal notwithstanding, all fighters taunts can get resisted; I would call that a fighter issue, not a guardian issue.<hr></blockquote>Except for the fact you mainly hold aggro with excellent dps, we don't

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aethane wrote:<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aethane wrote:<div></div>Oh and don't forget the sheer rediculous amount of resists we get when taunting and that we have no heal at all.<hr></blockquote>Lack of a heal notwithstanding, all fighters taunts can get resisted; I would call that a fighter issue, not a guardian issue.<hr></blockquote>Except for the fact you mainly hold aggro with excellent dps, we don't<hr></blockquote><p>Hmm, I suppose if the mob is low yellow or lower and I have storm stance up I can hold <em>single</em> target aggro with mainly attacks BUT I guarantee you on multiple mob pulls and high yellow or higher con I'm taunting my monk booty off to keep/hold aggro.</p><p>Oh, and there have been numerous times when I'm peeling on raids where I have to use rescue on the 2nd or 3rd add because the mob is stuck on the guardian like glue... times when rescue alone didn't even do it and I had to taunt and dps the mob just to try to peel it.</p><p>So at any rate, I feel your pain, I do feel aggro needs to be looked at for fighters overall, but I still wouldn't call aggro and taunt resists a "guardian" issue.</p>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Aethane wrote:<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<blockquote><hr>Aethane wrote:Oh and don't forget the sheer rediculous amount of resists we get when taunting and that we have no heal at all.<hr></blockquote>Lack of a heal notwithstanding, all fighters taunts can get resisted; I would call that a fighter issue, not a guardian issue.<hr></blockquote>Except for the fact you mainly hold aggro with excellent dps, we don't<hr></blockquote>While that "can" be true, its at a price. Yes a Monk could choise to stay in offencive stance to maintain aggro better, but not many will cause if you did you better have a few healers backing you up. Again like </span><span>Gaige is saying taunt resists are not just a Guardian issue, it's one shared by all classes with taunts.</span></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>Agro is really screwy right now.  Taunt resists are only a part of the problem.  If the hate generator algorithym is so complex, maybe it needs to be looked at?  Simplify it a bit?  It doesn't have to be rocket science, ya know.</p><p>DPS+Taunt+heal+Buff=Hate?</p><p>So if i do 500 damage, heal myself for 200, taunt for 300, and buff self and group stats by a total of 500, i've generated 1500 hate...as long as noone else generates more hate than that, then i have the MoBs attention...does it need to be any harder than that?</p><p>Just a question.  That's how i used to run it in old tabletop RPGs.  Worked fine there, tho i know this is a bit more involved.</p>

[Krooner]

<div></div><p>It might be helpful to look at it this.</p><p>Every other fighter class does get some kind of Health regen art.</p><p>Guadians get one HP buff and one STA buff.  Those HP's are static, meaning going into a fight what you have is what you get period.</p><p>If its a long fight the other classes have a clear advantage because they have to just wait on their heal timers.  Am I saying this is unfair?  nope but it is a mechanic that needs review.  At Adept 3 Return to battle adds like 440 HP and the stamina buffs ads a few more.  maybe what is needed is to have that number bumped a bit.  Also as a little flash to the past.  In the begining Guards had a CA that would bump STA each time you used it capping at a certain amount for a short time.  Guess what.  Its gone and long forgotten</p><p> </p>

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span><blockquote>Again like <span>Gaige is saying taunt resists are not just a Guardian issue, it's one shared by all classes with taunts.</span></span><span></span></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote><p>You are correct it is a fighter issue and not just a guardian one.</p><p>Having said that the issue is a little more of a problem for Guardians considering it is as MG stated our specialty. </p><p>Yes its a fighter issue</p><p>Yes it affects Guardians more then the other fighters because of the number of arts that depend on it as well as a lack of DPS to fall back on.</p>

[Aaliamz]

<div> </div><p>Message Edited by Aaliamzen on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:00 PM</span></p>

[Crim001]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:guardians are still the best raid tank. That's what you wanted to be when you rolled the class, right? If you want to solo, roll a monk. We received a similar reply when we were asking for better tanking ability pre-LU13.<hr></blockquote>Ok, so that justifies all these changes for what.....5% of the guardian population(pure speculation there). I myself have slow net and a bad comp so I will never be able to full on raid. So now because of that I should sell everything on my guardian and reroll to a brawler according to you. What I meant in my previous post was that guardians were fine pre13. At most our avoid was a little too high at times, but I was perfectly happy with the slow soloing because I was able to make up for that with really good tanking. Now however, it doesn't matter so much on your skill as a tank as much as your taunts/dps CA level.

[Crim001]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crim001 wrote:<div></div><p>Me pre 13=happy</p><p>Me post 13=verge of canceling account</p><p>Why?- Only removing everything I've ever learned and<font color="#ffff00"> making the class incapable of its main job-tanking.</font></p><hr></blockquote>Please don't tell the guardians in my guild that, it'd be upsetting for them to realize they aren't able to tank.<hr></blockquote><p>You do realize that one of the main reasons guards still tank raids is that we 1) get heavy armor 2) have high stamina 3) are usually rich from having to save up to buy extremely expensive gear/spells so repair costs aren't a problem.</p><p>So, according to you, your guilds guards are fine. So after factoring the fabled armor.....adept III-master II spells.....and guarenteed groups/raids.....that leaves.... just about 98-99% of the community left. Counting all raiders, maybe 90-95%. Not even close to a majority, so quit looking at them to justify your means.</p>

[Sirrion77]

OMG someone just said Raid guardians are rich..............Maybe it's only me but i always have to beg ny coercer wife for money so i can repair items lol.I won't even talk about potions...More items you have as Guardian, more you want....Sirriun<div></div>

[Aethane]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Aethane wrote:<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<blockquote><hr>Aethane wrote:Oh and don't forget the sheer rediculous amount of resists we get when taunting and that we have no heal at all.<hr></blockquote>Lack of a heal notwithstanding, all fighters taunts can get resisted; I would call that a fighter issue, not a guardian issue.<hr></blockquote>Except for the fact you mainly hold aggro with excellent dps, we don't<hr></blockquote>While that "can" be true, its at a price. Yes a Monk could choise to stay in offencive stance to maintain aggro better, but not many will cause if you did you better have a few healers backing you up. Again like </span><span>Gaige is saying taunt resists are not just a Guardian issue, it's one shared by all classes with taunts.</span></div><hr></blockquote>A monk or Bruiser in defense stance does more damage than a guardian in offense stance, WAY more.

[Meattray]

Ok its time for me to wade into this forum, no wonder Dev dosnt wanna post hereI have 60 Fury Main60 Warlock53 GuardPre LU13 my Guard was left behind on a server after i moved my Main, Fury to Najena (he was Lev 36)Just before Xmas i missed my Guard and i moved her to NajenaSo i started my Guard at lev 36 after big changes, the difference was hugeTook me 2-3 hours to relearn my class to have a chance at being MT in a groupI can tell you solo as a guard back then was very hard, EX white con solo a can kill if you dont play your class wellI tried to do harclave 1 run per level, i couldnt not do it untill i had ebon amour and lots of  T5 legendary (when i was lev 40-50, then i was ale to do it each level)Once i got lots of T5 legandary i was happy, but i tell you i still had to focus to get through harclave's named, i died a few times trying to get through, biggest problem was lack of DPS.Now i have FULL legendary T6 Guard and the change was huge, i feel like God atm Tank anything in yellow con range and have been able to Solo non named heroics 1 level down from me.Having a healer and agro hungry nuker i feel i can comment on the guardian class.I am happy with my guard, i DO think there is a slight need for improvment's thoughWE excell at tanking, thats what we are, we are there to keep a group safe and we do it better than most.We are Num1 choice for raid tank, we have plate amour, high avoidence/defence and lots of health, in this game with raids you MUST have more than 1 tank on raids and it helps that they all have equall tanking ability.  imagaine having to take 2-3 Guards on a raid cause they were only tank for raid.I think its great Monks and Brusiers tank well, as well as pallies and SK, and Serkers too.The main place we lose out is in DPS and Utility, our <font color="#cc0000">DPS</font> is low but not that low have seen guards do decent DPS on raids. <font color="#cc0000">When we have no combat arts to cast which is very often with long recast timers we really need a 20% Proc with some extra damage with our Offensive stance</font>, i am sure most other Tank classes would not mind us getting a boost like this?As for utility we have a little, our Main utility seems to be help other group members avoid damage and take damage for them, i am not very good with this utility as i am MT almost everytime as i am a guard and my roll is to be MT most of the time.  If we are not MT in a group then there really is not much point a guard in a group as they take a spot away from DPS-Caster/healer.As for Resisted taunts, all tanks have this problem, simple upgrade taunts & defensive stance first.We are Guardians we are not a DPS class we are pure tank class and do it better than mostIf i was gona make a new tank like reroll i would make a brusier in a heart beat, but im not a brusier i am guard and i am happy with her.Some classes have been had nerf's and non nerf'sGuards have been reduced but are still fineFuries and been raised up, i almost gave up on Fury after being told so many times i am worst healer classWarloks had some major changes to, i am happy with mine.Having a Pre LU13 Fury, Warlock and Guard i just plain like having mobs beat on me i love being agro magnet.Pre LU13 i wished my Fury had taunts and i got them !anyway to wind it up<font color="#cc0000">Guardians are almost where they should be, a little more DPS would help greatly in MT role & Support role in group/raid</font><div></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>From your post i gather that you feel all we need is DPS to round out out tanking ability.  What would you suggest our secondary role be in a group or raid?  We need something else!  DPS is a part of the answer, but not all of it.  Non-tanking utility is what we need.  We really dont care what it is, as long as we have a job to do to help our group/Raid get the job done.  Better group buffs, heals, better protective abilities(that dont increase the overall damage the group takes), whatever.  But above all, balance us out compared to all the other fighters!</p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><p>I don't see what any of these responses has to do with the original post. The suggested improvments for Guardians are pretty clear and very out there. Tons of threads all over this forum if you all want to discuss this already beaten to death subject.</p><p>What I would like to know is.... do people <em>really</em> consider any fighter class whatsoever, being able to solo white and yellow conned ^^^ nameds is regarded as balanced, or even fair? Did SOE really intend this to be so? That is what I want to know.</p>

[Storm_Runner]

<div></div><blockquote><p><font color="#ffff00">Zaboron wrote "If you want to do dps like a monk, I want to tank like a guardian. It's only fair, isnt it?"</font></p><p>Ok...fine.  But the reverse is also true.  If you want to tank like a guardian then I want to dps like a monk.  Since you already tank as well as a Guardian (post LU13) , to within a few percentage points (mainly raids which many of us don't do and are really less than 5% of the game content), I want to dps like a monk  to within that same few percentage points.  Sound fair?  I thought so. </p><blockquote> </blockquote></blockquote>

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Meattray wrote:<strong>The main place we lose out is in DPS and Utility, our <font color="#cc0000">DPS</font> is low but not that low have seen guards do decent DPS on raids.</strong> <font color="#cc0000">When we have no combat arts to cast which is very often with long recast timers we really need a 20% Proc with some extra damage with our Offensive stance</font>, i am sure most other Tank classes would not mind us getting a boost like this?<font color="#cc0000"></font><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Current game mechanics have changed enough to justify a relook at the whole way guardians do damage.</p><p>Pre-lu13 guards did a lot of damage associated to them via spell procs.  That is no longer the case in many areas and has been cut 50% due to the proc change in others.  A 25% reduction in CA retimers  isnt going to do it either.  What may be possible is to cut  guardians big hit retimes 50% and boost power pool by 25%.  And to pre-empt the troll reading this NO its not going to make guards over powered.  You are still going to do WAY more damage then them so zip it.</p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ladicav wrote:<div></div><p>What I would like to know is.... do people <em>really</em> consider any fighter class whatsoever, being able to solo white and yellow conned ^^^ nameds is regarded as balanced, or even fair? Did SOE really intend this to be so? That is what I want to know.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I <em>hate</em> to quote a Dev, i really do, but we've been told that Heroic encounters were never meant to be soloable.  Therefore any class that can do it is in serious trouble, especially if they come here and brag about being able to do it.  That's begging for attention, which for SOE, is usually disasterous for that class.</p><p>It is neither ballanced, nor fair.  The class disparity is still there, only now the roles are reversed, and it is an even greater differance in class funtionality.  Adding DPS simply will not correct the situation.  Guardians need something else, a utility used <em>outside</em> of the MT role.  Without it, 99% of us have no role in EQ2, outside of MTing for a raid guild.</p>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ladicav wrote:<div></div><p>I don't see what any of these responses has to do with the original post. The suggested improvments for Guardians are pretty clear and very out there. Tons of threads all over this forum if you all want to discuss this already beaten to death subject.</p><p><font color="#ff3300">Yeah cause talking about what another class can do and a Guardian is soo much more important.</font></p><p>What I would like to know is.... do people <em>really</em> consider any fighter class whatsoever, being able to solo white and yellow conned ^^^ nameds is regarded as balanced, or even fair? Did SOE really intend this to be so? That is what I want to know.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">The problem isn't that a fighter class can solo these mobs it's that alot of classes can. So before you go asking the Devs to hack down on Brusiers maybe you should research ALL the classes that can solo ANY heroic mob, build a list and then define how to fix them all. With your way of thinking Guardians need to be nerfed cause they can solo green heroic mobs.</font></p><hr></blockquote>BTW my 43 Monk got his butt handed to him by Everling lastnight. He was a green Heroic ^^^ mob and I have more master I (9 of my usable skills are master I, including both stances and all my DPS) skills then most L60 toons get their whole leveling. Not one of my skills is less then Adept III and I'm decked out in full T5 crafted, with imbued weapons. Not all Brawlers can solo named mobs.</span></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>Everling comes with Adds, too.</p><p>Some level 60 Guardians are unable to solo the named shade in OoLS, and its a level 47-48^^^...</p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ladicav wrote:<div></div><p>I don't see what any of these responses has to do with the original post. The suggested improvments for Guardians are pretty clear and very out there. Tons of threads all over this forum if you all want to discuss this already beaten to death subject.</p><p><font color="#ff3300">Yeah cause talking about what another class can do and a Guardian is soo much more important.</font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">We are balanced with other fighters. If other fighters can do things that a Guardian could never hope to then the balance must be looked at. That is what balance means. Guardians, as part of the fighter subclass, can look at and use anything another fighter can do an an example of balance.</font></p><p>What I would like to know is.... do people <em>really</em> consider any fighter class whatsoever, being able to solo white and yellow conned ^^^ nameds is regarded as balanced, or even fair? Did SOE really intend this to be so? That is what I want to know.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">The problem isn't that a fighter class can solo these mobs it's that alot of classes can. So before you go asking the Devs to hack down on Brusiers maybe you should research ALL the classes that can solo ANY heroic mob, build a list and then define how to fix them all. With your way of thinking Guardians need to be nerfed cause they can solo green heroic mobs.</font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">If a fighter class can do it then it must be concidered in the balancing of fighters. If other classes can do it then good for them. They are different classes and do not factor in the fighter balance. Other subclasses can fend for themselves on balance.</font></p><hr></blockquote>BTW my 43 Monk got his butt handed to him by Everling lastnight. He was a green Heroic ^^^ mob and I have more master I (9 of my usable skills are master I, including both stances and all my DPS) skills then most L60 toons get their whole leveling. Not one of my skills is less then Adept III and I'm decked out in full T5 crafted, with imbued weapons. Not all Brawlers can solo named mobs.</span></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff9900">I got my butt handed to me at level 50 as a Guardian. I had to get a friend to come help me kill him. What does that prove? Maybe more balance fodder that you thought you could do that at 43 where I knew I couldn't. You need to open your mind up a bit. Digging your feet in and not paying attention to what we are saying just makes you look like a child.</font>

[Shizzirri]

<div></div>Guardians have never faired well against casters, not enough interrupts, etc. And even with the fast cast of some of them its hard to land them against some of the faster nukes.  And what's funny are the bruisers claiming they can solo this stuff have provided no proof at all.

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shizzirri wrote:<div></div>Guardians have never faired well against casters, not enough interrupts, etc. And even with the fast cast of some of them its hard to land them against some of the faster nukes.  And what's funny are the bruisers claiming they can solo this stuff have provided no proof at all.<hr></blockquote>is there a need to doubt them???  they have the stuns, mez, heal, ect...  knowing the right order use these leaves very little time for xyz mob to do enough damage to kill them...  now they get a couple resists or their CA's don't hit they might be in a lil trouble...

[Shizzirri]

<div>I'm not saying I don't believe them you'd think though with the ego's in the thread they would post screenshots, I don't doubt it either, need proof look at Phalax's kill to death ratio, it sucks and its not from raids, no guild, so obviously it took a great deal of practice.</div>

[Crim001]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span><blockquote><p><font color="#ff0000">The problem isn't that a fighter class can solo these mobs it's that alot of classes can. So before you go asking the Devs to hack down on Brusiers maybe you should research ALL the classes that can solo ANY heroic mob, build a list and then define how to fix them all. With your way of thinking Guardians need to be nerfed cause they can solo green heroic mobs.</font></p><hr></blockquote>BTW my 43 Monk got his butt handed to him by Everling lastnight. He was a green Heroic ^^^ mob and I have more master I (9 of my usable skills are master I, including both stances and all my DPS) skills then most L60 toons get their whole leveling. Not one of my skills is less then Adept III and I'm decked out in full T5 crafted, with imbued weapons. Not all Brawlers can solo named mobs.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>First of all-stop flaming. Wasuna started this to show the gap between guard and brawler soloability. No one is asking to get anyone nerfed. So quite losing your head just because you don't agree with something. Heroic=group, solo=solo class....</p><p>Second-As a guard, I would never dream of taking any heroic on that isn't 2-3 levels away from grey. Named spell caster  may take well over the initial greying to kill it.</p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div>Gaige posted a screenshot in that thread I believe. He could have had help I suppose but he is almost dead and the mob he was fighting was dead on the ground.

[Ladicav]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ladicav wrote:<div></div><p>I don't see what any of these responses has to do with the original post. The suggested improvments for Guardians are pretty clear and very out there. Tons of threads all over this forum if you all want to discuss this already beaten to death subject.</p><p><font color="#ff3300">Yeah cause talking about what another class can do and a Guardian is soo much more important.</font></p><p><font color="#66ff66">Hang on. The thread was started on the <em><strong>Bruiser forums</strong></em>, Einstein. Once it is public domain, anyone at all is allowed to highlight and comment on it. Are you berating our right to reflect on the topic? That same right that allows you to jump forums and come here and berate us? Funny that. I regard it as not too clever by the Bruisers to go comparing e-wangers and beating their chests about what ^^^ nameds they can solo and what zones they can pick clean without any assistance. What did they think was going to happen? What if the devs spot the thread and suddenly think, hang on, this just isn't right.....</font></p><p><font color="#66ff66">You want to talk about Guardians, be my guest. Theres hundreds of threads with content you can comment on to your hearts delight. The O/P found a thread that obviously has caused some concern. We have every right to talk about it.</font></p><p>What I would like to know is.... do people <em>really</em> consider any fighter class whatsoever, being able to solo white and yellow conned ^^^ nameds is regarded as balanced, or even fair? Did SOE really intend this to be so? That is what I want to know.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">The problem isn't that a fighter class can solo these mobs it's that alot of classes can. So before you go asking the Devs to hack down on Brusiers maybe you should research ALL the classes that can solo ANY heroic mob, build a list and then define how to fix them all. With your way of thinking Guardians need to be nerfed cause they can solo green heroic mobs</font></p><p><font color="#66ff33">Nice try. I have no intention of wanting to get Bruisers nerfed. Where in any of my posts did I ask a Dev to go nerf Bruisers? Point it out please, in quotes, for all to see. To be honest, once again, that thread they started isn't going to do them any favours. And if you can't see that, then you should realy go see an optometrist. This isn't green con heroics we are talking about here, these are yellow con ^^^ heroic nameds. <em>You really do not get it do you</em>. If Bruisers <em>DO</em> get nerfed, it won't be because of Guardians no matter how much you come here trying to tell us it is. It will be because Bruisers just cannot keep it within their pants and feel compelled to brag about soloing content which requires a group to do.  I wipe my hands of all this. They really are on their own. This has zero to do with us. Other classes can also solo content, but as far as I have seen, they haven't posted e-wanger threads boasting about it. If you can do stuff no other classes can and you keep it quiet, no cages get rattled. Stop trying to throw this back onto <em>US</em>.</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>BTW my 43 Monk got his butt handed to him by Everling lastnight. He was a green Heroic ^^^ mob and I have more master I (9 of my usable skills are master I, including both stances and all my DPS) skills then most L60 toons get their whole leveling. Not one of my skills is less then Adept III and I'm decked out in full T5 crafted, with imbued weapons. Not all Brawlers can solo named mobs.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#66ff33">Personally I couldn't give a rats hind quarters what your particular Monk can and cannot do. These are the Guardian forums. Why are you here telling me about your Monk? For every monk like you that says oh woe is me, I'm hopeless, there are 10 others who can punch the stuffing out of a whole bunch of content. Are you trying to tell me your char is typical of all monks, because I don't believe you.</font></p><p><font color="#66ff33">Want to post something useful and contribute to the Guardian forums? Get to level 50 and do a whole bunch of parses and link them here so we can compare to all the parses we have done because so far we have had no volunteers. Other than that, nothing you have written has actually contributed anything more than just a regular troll trying to incite this community.</font></p><p><font color="#66ff33"></font> </p><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:54 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:51 PM</span></p>

[Kain Hammersmith]

<div></div>Well said Ladicav

[Gaige]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span>I have more master I (9 of my usable skills are master I, including both stances and all my DPS) skills then most L60 toons get their whole leveling. </span><hr></div></blockquote><p>You don't have ward, tsunami or a few other key skills either.</p><p>As for your masters, 9 is pretty impressive, but I have 26 that I use between 47 and 60, and every other spell is adept 3.</p><p>As for all monks being able to solo yellow heroic named, of course not.</p><p>So I think that kind of stuff needs to be considered when broadly comparing bruisers (with mez/fear) and monks to guardians in regards to soloing heroics.  I'm far from the best equipped monk out there but I'm also far from a slacker, and I've played a monk since beta day in and day out and would like to think I know a few strategies.</p><p>It doesn't help any of the classes out when broad generalizations are used, I've been guillty of that in the past so trust me I'm speaking with first hand experience.</p><p>At any rate I <em>still</em> think guardians need a few tweaks, and it has nothing at all to do with the fact that I've solo'd a 62+++ and Wasuna hasn't.  Nothing at all.  Stuff like that is pretty incosequential in my book.</p><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:57 AM</span></p>

[Kain Hammersmith]

<div></div><div></div><strong>***REMOVED FLAME BAIT***</strong><p>Message Edited by StarryEyedElf on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:41 PM</span></p>

[Owa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kain Hammersmith wrote:<div></div>I guess I am in the wrong place... I thought this was the Guardian Forums.<hr></blockquote><p><font size="2">What would you prefer? Guardians communicating only with Guardians? Paladins only with Paladins, etc? Perhaps different fighter subclasses should refrain from <em>in--game</em> communication too  - or maybe use a healer class as a go-between? I get a better understanding of other classes by reading their forums than by not reading them. Sometimes I might even have an opinion or a question to ask. Controlling what people can say and who can say it only leads to less potential information. </font></p><p><font size="2">Anyway, I have two points. Firstly, you should be aware that the number of Bruisers able to solo these very difficult mobs is so small as to be an anomaly - if they even exist. I have doubts about the truth of some of these claims -  myself and one of the best-equipped and most experienced raiding Bruisers on my server attempted to solo (and duo) the named in Poet's palace and were dead within seconds each time.</font></p><p><font size="2">Secondly, on the hoary old subject of fighter balance I'm interested to know whether Guardians would prefer to have demonstrably the best defense in the game (to the exclusion of soloing ability/DPS) - or have their DPS/utility bumped up.</font></p><p><font size="2"> Clearly your defense is not strong enough <em>currently</em> to justify your lack of DPS/utility - but given the choice which would you choose? My own view is that Guardians should give up DPS and soloing ability in order to take more of a beating than any other class, Bruisers should give up tanking ability in order to give out <em>more</em> of a beating  - and the other fighter classes should form a spectrum somewhere between these two extremes. This <em>is</em> merely my own view, however. A lot of people disagree.</font></p><p><font size="2">So - in a perfect world (where SoE listens to its customers) - which would you choose: dedicated MT or better soloability/versatility?</font></p>

[StarryEyedElf]

<div></div>Keep this discussion civil. If I see any more baiting, I'm going to lock this thread.

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>StarryEyedElf wrote:<div></div>Keep this discussion civil. If I see any more baiting, I'm going to lock this thread.<hr></blockquote>*baits* You wont !!hehe <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<div></div><div></div><p><strong>***Off topic***</strong></p><p>If you have a question about forum etiquette, PM a mod, don't derail a thread.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by StarryEyedElf on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:19 PM</span></p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<p><font size="2">Secondly, on the hoary old subject of fighter balance I'm interested to know whether Guardians would prefer to have demonstrably the best defense in the game (to the exclusion of soloing ability/DPS) - or have their DPS/utility bumped up.</font></p><p><font size="2"> Clearly your defense is not strong enough <em>currently</em> to justify your lack of DPS/utility - but given the choice which would you choose? My own view is that Guardians should give up DPS and soloing ability in order to take more of a beating than any other class, Bruisers should give up tanking ability in order to give out <em>more</em> of a beating  - and the other fighter classes should form a spectrum somewhere between these two extremes. This <em>is</em> merely my own view, however. A lot of people disagree.</font></p><p><font size="2">So - in a perfect world (where SoE listens to its customers) - which would you choose: dedicated MT or better soloability/versatility?</font></p><hr></blockquote><div>Hands down, i'm betting Guards would want to be the "Best Tanks".  I know of not one single Guardian who started their class thinking "Hey, i wanna tank, but i wanna do loads of damage and have all the neat utility to fall back on when i'm <em>not</em> tanking, too."  No where will you see that implied in a manual, on a website, or even hear it from people in-game.  <em>Everyone</em> knew, from manual to in-game, peer to peer chat, that Guards were tanks, and only tanks.</div><div> </div><div>Now that we have been schooled on the "Equal Tanking For All" mantra of Dev and Brawler, we would like to have a more balanced overall fighter class.  Guardians can't get the defense, but nowhere doe it say we have to be <em>only</em> tanks.  In a world where a leather-clad bare knucke fighter can tank a raid, why can't a Guardian be a DPS machine, as far as fighters go?</div><div> </div><div>Look at it this way.  I watched Sleepless in Seattle last night.  Remember that movie?  In stead of logging in to EQ2 for a few hours, i watched a chick flick.  I actually sat in front of my computer and thought, "I'd rather go sit and watch that, than log into my boring Guardian class."</div><div> </div><div>Come on, SOE. Gimme gimme gimme.  Dont make me wach Beaches and Steel Magnolias in stead of playing your game.  That would be tragic.</div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><div>Come on, SOE. Gimme gimme gimme.  Dont make me wach Beaches and Steel Magnolias in stead of playing your game.  That would be tragic.</div><hr></blockquote>*sings* Did you ever know that your my hero...  :smileysurprised:

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>bah!</p><p>Moorgard > Bette Middler</p>

[Pry]

<div></div><div></div><p>I am a Guardian.  I want to:</p><p>1.  Be able to solo and do solo quests when I can't find a group</p><p>2.  Be able to tank for my groups when I do find them.</p><p>3.  When not selected as MA for raids, be able to perform some other function (and protection is not a function).</p><p>4.  Have a utility that defines my class (and protection is not a utility).</p><p>Once I get that, I will be happy.  I feel as if we don't have #1, we dont have #3, and we don't have #4.  So 1 out of 4 is 25% of the class it used to be. </p><p>P.S.  As far as what other classes can and cannot do, I really don't give a crap.</p><p>Message Edited by Prynn on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:26 PM</span></p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>I am a Guardian.  I want to:</p><p>1.  Be able to solo and do solo quests when I can't find a group. <font color="#ff0000">I agree</font></p><p>2.  Be able to tank for my groups when I do find them. <font color="#ff0000">I agree</font></p><p>3.  When not selected as MA for raids, be able to perform some other function <font color="#ff0000">I agree </font>(and protection is not a function <font color="#ff0000">(I disagree)</font>).</p><p>4.  Have a utility that defines my class <font color="#ff0000">I agree</font>(and protection is not a utility <font color="#ff0000">(I disagree)</font>).</p><p></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Protection and intercept are great idea that have been poorly implemented.  </p><p>Intercept needs to:</p><ul><li>Intercept at a higher rate.</li><li>Mitigate damage to Guardian.</li><li>Prevent all damage to ally.</li></ul><p>Protect needs to:</p><ul><li>Allow Guardian to Block for ally (when equiped with shield).</li><li>Allow Guardian to Parry for ally (bonus when dual weild).</li><li>Grant additional cnance for ally to avoid (penalty to MoB attack)</li></ul><p>No taunt or hate value can be assigned to these abilities, to facilitate use in a non-tank role.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Once I get that, I will be happy.  I feel as if we don't have #1, we dont have #3, and we don't have #4.  So 1 out of 4 is 25% of the class it used to be. </p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>I'd agree with that estimation.</p><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>P.S.  As far as what other classes can and cannot do, I really don't give a crap.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Other fighter classes are what we have to compare ourselves to.  Yet, we need to have our own role, separate from other fighters, that defines our place in a group or raid without designating us as the end-all-be-all Main Tank.  SOE isn't going to scrap their idea ofGuardians "protecting and Interceding."  But we can ask for improvements, an suggest the path they take in developing those improvements.</p>

[Pry]

<div></div><p>I think I see where you are coming from.</p><p>See, I don't see protection as a utility, but more as something we should be able to do as a part of our role.  Because it doesn't really help us solo or PvP if we have all of this great protection ability, and a utility should be something that can be used in any situation (such as feign death, lay on hands, fear and lifetap, etc.)</p><p>And such why I said what I said.</p><p>As far as what that ability should be?  I don't have a clue.  Clearly you can't make it something unbalancing, but it has to be useful. </p><p>And that doesn't even begin to address some other things, but a topic for a different day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>annaspider wrote:</p><p><font size="2"> Clearly your defense is not strong enough <em>currently</em> to justify your lack of DPS/utility - but given the choice which would you choose? My own view is that Guardians should give up DPS and soloing ability in order to take more of a beating than any other class, Bruisers should give up tanking ability in order to give out <em>more</em> of a beating  - and the other fighter classes should form a spectrum somewhere between these two extremes. This <em>is</em> merely my own view, however. A lot of people disagree.</font></p><p><font size="2">So - in a perfect world (where SoE listens to its customers) - which would you choose: dedicated MT or better soloability/versatility?</font></p><hr></blockquote><p>In a perfect world? Well I agree, a Guardians defense isn't far enough ahead of all the other fighters to justify the class. There needs to be some outstanding reason why you would pick a Guardian as your starting class, over a berzerker, or brawler or paladin, and currently there isn't much of a reason to do so and raid tanking isn't a good enough reason. It has been my opinion all along that I'm not really interested in added DPS and I didn't really choose the class on its ability to solo. I think Guardian current DPS isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is, but again DPS isn't why I chose a Guardian. I chose the class to be able to clearly, visibly be the best defensive tank on this scale you are talking about where I agree also that Guardians should be at the extreme end of the defense scale. I want to be able to see the difference in practice, not wonder if it is actually there amongst stats and numbers.</p><p>Guardian mitigation bonus should be a lot higher than it is now, much more than any other class. The problem with all that is, and Gaige will hurry to tell you at every possible opportunity, in the real world there has been an entire overhaul all in the name of  the whole tank balancing thing we have all had to endure. The gap was sought to be closed between Guardians and the other fighters because of the whole 'Guardian unbalanced the whole tanking regime' mindset. In the real world, we will never get that clear gap in defense and mitigation. In time I think we have all come to accept that even though we may not agree with it.</p><p>The problem now though is, since the gap has been closed so much, Guardians were not really compensated with anything defining. On the other extreme end of the tanking scale, Bruisers got added tankability but also got to keep everything else they had, including their DPS. So they essentially won out twice. So now they can avoid the hurt AND still get to dish out the DPS. I agree Bruisers should be able to dish out the hurt on mobs, but should really feel the pain when the faeces hit the fan. Bruisers should be on the border between fighter and scout archtypes both in terms of defense and offense and Guardians should be the other extreme, Fighter class to the max, none more defensive or even come close but lacks the DPS and utility (which they already do). So is it any wonder Guardians want something defining as compensation?  So in those regards, you and I agree, even if others disagree with us as you pointed out.</p><p>On your first point about not believing what was said about what bruisers can solo. I don't agree and beg to differ. I have a close friend who is a Bruiser. He solos all types of things many of us would never dream of. Thing is, he keeps it quiet. Never talks about it in guildchat, never talks about it on any forums, and he is Bruiser forum contributer, but none of you would ever know it. He talks to me about stuff in tells, the perfect forum for expressing your excitement. You won't see him post on any forum what his greatest solo achievment was because he is what I consider a smart Bruiser. He has no problem keeping it in his pants and just goes about his business quietly. He doesn't want to attract attention, since he knows attracting attention is the first stage to a nerf. So remember, just because you cannot solo the same content as pointed out in the original thread, does not mean you can apply your experience blanket fashion to everyone else and then just dismiss it. That is extremely short sighted. I believe the content of the bruiser thread the o/p linked is actually fairly accurate, disregarding the obvious bait and silly posts, because the truth isn't far from there. Prudent bruisers wouldn't have responded to the thread. And again I reiterate this isn't a Guardian issue. Tired of the non Guardians trying to make out like it is.</p><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:48 AM</span></p>

[Crim001]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ladicav wrote:<p>In a perfect world? Well I agree, a Guardians defense isn't far enough ahead of all the other fighters to justify the class. There needs to be some outstanding reason why you would pick a Guardian as your starting class, over a berzerker, or brawler or paladin, and currently there isn't much of a reason to do so and raid tanking isn't a good enough reason. It has been my opinion all along that I'm not really interested in added DPS and I didn't really choose the class on its ability to solo. I think Guardian current DPS isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is, but again DPS isn't why I chose a Guardian. I chose the class to be able to clearly, visibly be the best defensive tank on this scale you are talking about where I agree also that Guardians should be at the extreme end of the defense scale. I want to be able to see the difference in practice, not wonder if it is actually there amongst stats and numbers.</p><p>Guardian mitigation bonus should be a lot higher than it is now, much more than any other class. The problem with all that is, and Gaige will hurry to tell you at every possible opportunity, in the real world there has been an entire overhaul all in the name of  the whole tank balancing thing we have all had to endure. The gap was sought to be closed between Guardians and the other fighters because of the whole 'Guardian unbalanced the whole tanking regime' mindset. In the real world, we will never get that clear gap in defense and mitigation. In time I think we have all come to accept that even though we may not agree with it.</p><p>The problem now though is, since the gap has been closed so much, Guardians were not really compensated with anything defining. On the other extreme end of the tanking scale, Bruisers got added tankability but also got to keep everything else they had, including their DPS. So they essentially won out twice. So now they can avoid the hurt AND still get to dish out the DPS. I agree Bruisers should be able to dish out the hurt on mobs, but should really feel the pain when the faeces hit the fan. Bruisers should be on the border between fighter and scout archtypes both in terms of defense and offense and Guardians should be the other extreme, Fighter class to the max, none more defensive or even come close but lacks the DPS and utility (which they already do). So is it any wonder Guardians want something defining as compensation?  So in those regards, you and I agree, even if others disagree with us as you pointed out.</p><p>On your first point about not believing what was said about what bruisers can solo. I don't agree and beg to differ. I have a close friend who is a Bruiser. He solos all types of things many of us would never dream of. Thing is, he keeps it quiet. Never talks about it in guildchat, never talks about it on any forums, and he is Bruiser forum contributer, but none of you would ever know it. He talks to me about stuff in tells, the perfect forum for expressing your excitement. You won't see him post on any forum what his greatest solo achievment was because he is what I consider a smart Bruiser. He has no problem keeping it in his pants and just goes about his business quietly. He doesn't want to attract attention, since he knows attracting attention is the first stage to a nerf. So remember, just because you cannot solo the same content as pointed out in the original thread, does not mean you can apply your experience blanket fashion to everyone else and then just dismiss it. That is extremely short sighted. I believe the content of the bruiser thread the o/p linked is actually fairly accurate, disregarding the obvious bait and silly posts, because the truth isn't far from there. Prudent bruisers wouldn't have responded to the thread. And again I reiterate this isn't a Guardian issue. Tired of the non Guardians trying to make out like it is.</p><hr></blockquote><p>/applause</p><p>Nicely said, pretty much sumarizes just about half the posts so far in the guard forum.</p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><p>i disagree with some of what you posted.</p><p>There are 6 tank classes, right? and we all picked fighters to tank, right? So to make ONE class tank happy, you make ALL other tanks inferior. Not only is that bad business sense, but it makes little sense game wise. Guardians are already the number 1 raid tank, that we can all agree on...</p><p>You make Guardians the preferred tank in XP grps and you automatically [Removed for Content] EVERY other tank out there...but wait..we already had a situation like that..yeah, I remember. Pre-vamp, thats exactly how it was, and look how that turned out.</p><p>Making Guardians the noticeably number one tank makes all other tanks noticeably worse, which translates into undesirable tanks.</p><p>Tanks should be interchangeable based off situation. The day of the superior tank in every situation should be dead, dead, dead. You cannot cater to one class and ignore 5 other classes who clearly want to tank. My heals and wards and aggro balance me against Guardians. Improve one tanking area of Guards and you would have to improve one area of Palys. The way I see it, is that now in grps,  the Guard is no longer automatically the preferred tank. Now, grps actually have a CHOICE in who tanks, and it won't [Removed for Content] the grp, because all tanks are roughly the same.</p><p>I think I've read over 200 posts by now about how Guards made tanks to tank.</p><p> Guess what? so did every other tank class.</p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>i disagree with some of what you posted.</p><p>Guardians are already the number 1 raid tank, that we can all agree on...</p><p>Tanks should be interchangeable based off situation. The day of the superior tank in every situation should be dead, dead, dead. You cannot cater to one class and ignore 5 other classes who clearly want to tank. My heals and wards and aggro balance me against Guardians. Improve one tanking area of Guards and you would have to improve one area of Palys. The way I see it, is that now in grps,  the Guard is no longer automatically the preferred tank. Now, grps actually have a CHOICE in who tanks, and it won't [Removed for Content] the grp, because all tanks are roughly the same.</p><hr></blockquote><p>no not gonna agree on that guards are number 1 raid tank...  zerkers and paly interchangeable with guards for raid MT...  there is no #1 choice for raid MT now  but i'll call it a draw in this aspect...</p><p>right now the scale is on the 5 other fighter classes in the other 2 aspects of the game soloing and grouping...  guards are worst soloers of the 5 fighter classes (no heals, worst dps)...  this also trasfers  to grouping (no utility, worst dps) things die slower (less exp/loot per hour) and our avoidance works against us for our hate stance (overnuking warlock has agro)...</p><p>so thats 1 out of 3 aspects in the game guards are equal to other tanks (the 5% of content part)...  the other 95% of the game guards are way behind the other 5 fighter classes...  how is that balanced???</p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><div>Wabit, your talking utiity. Tanking has nothing to do with utility.</div><div> </div><div>Thats separate arguments. In tanking you guys are king. In utility and DPS you are not. Ive continuously posted that yes, you guys need more utility and DPS. I can provide links. The problem is that guys keep getting utility and tanking mixed up.</div><div> </div><div>And no raid tanks are not interchangeable. If you want we can do a poll of high end raiding guilds and see how many have zerks vs palys vs guards vs monks vs bruisers vs sk.</div><div> </div><div>Yes, other tanks can tank raids, but not nearly as well as a Guard, with the exception of some palys and zerks.</div>

[Owa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>iI think I've read over 200 posts by now about how Guards made tanks to tank.</p><p> Guess what? so did every other tank class.</p><hr></blockquote><p><font size="2">I made a Bruiser to be a Tank/DPS hybrid - or as close to one as this game allows. I didn't like sneaking like a scout and not being able to take damage  - and I didn't like being as static as a tank and not being able to put out DPS. Bruiser gives me the best of both worlds - maybe too much. </font></p><p><font size="2">I think there would have been a lot less moaning and far fewer problems if SoE had created hybrids in the first place. If they released the game saying Warriors could tank better than Brawlers but Brawlers were better DPS and all-round soloers  - we could have chosen exactly what type of character we wanted with fewer excuses and fewer disappointments.</font></p><p><font size="2">I'm hoping the proposed AAs give us the chance to make dedicated tanks or hybrids - 'cause this 'all tanks are equal but different' doesn't work, never did - and never will.</font></p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><div>Wabit, your talking utiity. Tanking has nothing to do with utility.  <font color="#ff00ff">define the difference please...  we might be looking at tanking a different way...</font></div><div> </div><div>Yes, other tanks can tank raids, but not nearly as well as a Guard, with the exception of some palys and zerks.  <font color="#ff00ff">its the exception that proves the rule???</font></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>tanking to me is taking hits, agro control, life, and dps...  for soloing is where the utility comes in (mez, FD, ect)</p><p>tanking hits well all plate tanks mit about the same (gear dependant)...  crusaders have +60 from their ranged slot...  the need for the 30 secs buffs i rarely need in a group setting, even less so in soloing (its the casters that hurt)...</p><p>agro control, AE guards are better than SK, bruiser, monks...  but are behind paly and zerker...  single target, we are behind all but SK's</p><p>HP- we have the highest HP of all tanks...  but the wards, lifetaps, heals regen make up the difference in spades (really apparent soloing)...  even in a group setting one ward or heal from a crusader puts them over guards HP...  the only time you need like max HP in a group setting is really never really an issue (nothing really has 5k damage spikes in a group setting)...</p><p>dps- well its how you add to your group killing something (also helps for agro)...  in this guards are dead last of the fighter classes (druids out dps me in group settings)...</p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>i disagree with some of what you posted.</p><p>There are 6 tank classes, right? and we all picked fighters to tank, right? So to make ONE class tank happy, you make ALL other tanks inferior. Not only is that bad business sense, but it makes little sense game wise. Guardians are already the number 1 raid tank, that we can all agree on...</p><p>You make Guardians the preferred tank in XP grps and you automatically [Removed for Content] EVERY other tank out there...but wait..we already had a situation like that..yeah, I remember. Pre-vamp, thats exactly how it was, and look how that turned out.</p><p>Making Guardians the noticeably number one tank makes all other tanks noticeably worse, which translates into undesirable tanks.</p><p>Tanks should be interchangeable based off situation. The day of the superior tank in every situation should be dead, dead, dead. You cannot cater to one class and ignore 5 other classes who clearly want to tank. My heals and wards and aggro balance me against Guardians. Improve one tanking area of Guards and you would have to improve one area of Palys. The way I see it, is that now in grps,  the Guard is no longer automatically the preferred tank. Now, grps actually have a CHOICE in who tanks, and it won't [Removed for Content] the grp, because all tanks are roughly the same.</p><p>I think I've read over 200 posts by now about how Guards made tanks to tank.</p><p> Guess what? so did every other tank class.</p><hr></blockquote>I don't really care if you agree or disagree. The poster asked for a response based in a perfect world. I gave an answer based on this perfect world. You don't like it and want to get your knickers in a twist over it? Go right ahead. I noticed how you didn't make any comments about based on the real world scenario and just pounced on the perfect world scenario. That alone speaks volumes to me.<p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:26 PM</span></p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>iI think I've read over 200 posts by now about how Guards made tanks to tank.</p><p> Guess what? so did every other tank class.</p><hr></blockquote><p><font size="2">I made a Bruiser to be a Tank/DPS hybrid - or as close to one as this game allows. I didn't like sneaking like a scout and not being able to take damage  - and I didn't like being as static as a tank and not being able to put out DPS. Bruiser gives me the best of both worlds - maybe too much. </font></p><p><font size="2">I think there would have been a lot less moaning and far fewer problems if SoE had created hybrids in the first place. If they released the game saying Warriors could tank better than Brawlers but Brawlers were better DPS and all-round soloers  - we could have chosen exactly what type of character we wanted with fewer excuses and fewer disappointments.</font></p><p><font size="2">I'm hoping the proposed AAs give us the chance to make dedicated tanks or hybrids - 'cause this 'all tanks are equal but different' doesn't work, never did - and never will.</font></p><hr></blockquote>I have to agree. You are a Bruiser who sees the basic flaws and calls a spade a spade and I respect that. I also don't see how ever, ever, a 6 tank system will ever become balanced. I think it is 2 tanks too many just to fill the one single role. There is always going to be those 2 tanks classes that come last. It might be SK's and Guardians this year, but it could be Zerkers and Paladins next year. Who knows what SOE have around the corner in the name of balance. I just don't see how it is ever going to work.

[Terron]

<div></div><a href="../view_profile?user.id=128326" target="top"><span></span></a>mastersardis wrote:<em>>Everyone</em> knew, from manual to in-game, peer to peer chat, that Guards were tanks, and only tanks.Wrong. The manual quite correctly says nothing about tanks. That is jargon which someone new to MMORPGs would not understand. I did not understand it fully until after I had chosen guardian.<div></div>

[Krooner]

<div></div><p>Getting back to the OP origional topic.  I for one would really like to see a Dev or game designer comment on the topic.</p><p> </p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>I would like to see a Dev response also as I said in the OP.</p><p>How can they call this balanced?</p><p>How can they ignore us when this kind of thing is being posted openly on the SOE forums?</p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>pjackson wrote:<div></div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=128326" target="top"><span></span></a>mastersardis wrote:<em>>Everyone</em> knew, from manual to in-game, peer to peer chat, that Guards were tanks, and only tanks.Wrong. The manual quite correctly says nothing about tanks. That is jargon which someone new to MMORPGs would not understand. I did not understand it fully until after I had chosen guardian.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Just because you had never heard the word "tank" doesn't mean you didn't know exactly what role you would be filling.</p><p>You dont have to know the word "water" to know when you're thirsty.</p>

[Crim001]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><div>And no raid tanks are not interchangeable. If you want we can do a poll of high end raiding guilds and see how many have zerks vs palys vs guards vs monks vs bruisers vs sk.</div><div> </div><div>Yes, other tanks can tank raids, but not nearly as well as a Guard, with the exception of some palys and zerks.</div><hr></blockquote>Ok, so if you can get every raid guild on your side lets see.....you've justified around.....5% of the game. So, you think that the 5% is worth fashioning an entire class around?

[mastersard]

<div></div><div></div><p>SOE does.</p><p>And shame on them for doing it.  I started this game with 5 accounts.  Now i have 1.</p><p>I hope i'm not a good indicator of the subscription trend.</p><p>Eh, maybe i do hope i am.</p><p>Message Edited by mastersardis on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:05 PM</span></p>

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>Just because you had never heard the word "tank" doesn't mean you didn't know exactly what role you would be filling.</p><p>You dont have to know the word "water" to know when you're thirsty.</p><hr></blockquote>I had heard the word tank in many contexts, but I had no idea of the specialized role it describes in MMORPGs.It bears no relationship to real-life tactics, or to those used in human run RPGs (of which I have a lot of experience).I expected to be able to block attackers from reaching those need protection by careful positioning, such as by occupying a doorway.I expected to be able to make a decent contribution to the damage a group deals.I did not expect the tactic of having someone who is not a real threat yell his head off to attract the enemies attention and force them to hit him so that others can attack without worrying about defense to work.It is so silly I did not even think of it.</span><div></div>

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:<blockquote><hr></blockquote><blockquote>pjackson wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:guardians are still the best raid tank. That's what you wanted to be when you rolled the class, right? If you want to solo, roll a monk. We received a similar reply when we were asking for better tanking ability pre-LU13.<hr></blockquote>Wrong. I wanted the class with the best defense. I did not know what raids or tanks were when I made the choice.I did not play pre-LU13.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>guess what. you are the class with the best defense.<font color="#ffff00">I don't need to guess. I know guardian is not the class the best defense. My swashie alt has better defense with her speed buff, and escape, and sneak, and most of all her DPS which kills things before they can do much damge which my guardian at the same level would have been killed by.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Most of a guardian's defense comes from their equipment and with my guardian being my first character he can't afford the legendary stuff that many people consider essential. Other plate wearing classes with rich alts to fund them have much better mitigation and avoidance, than I do.</font><font color="#ffff00">Attack may not always be the best form of defense but it is a good one in EQ2.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>Meattray wrote:I can tell you solo as a guard back then was very hard, EX white con solo a can kill if you dont play your class wellI tried to do harclave 1 run per level, i couldnt not do it untill i had ebon amour and lots of  T5 legendary (when i was lev 40-50, then i was ale to do it each level)Once i got lots of T5 legandary i was happy, but i tell you i still had to focus to get through harclave's named, i died a few times trying to get through, biggest problem was lack of DPS.Now i have FULL legendary T6 Guard and the change was huge, i feel like God atm Tank anything in yellow con range and have been able to Solo non named heroics 1 level down from me.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Soloing is still very hard for someone like me who has no legendary armour (and the one piece of fabled I have ever got was for scouts only). The only legendary armour I have ever had was T2 when I was T3.The only whites I fight solo are roadkill assassins, or the Frostfell quest ones. I am wary of blues with 2 or more up arrows.Still soloing is better now at 43 than it was at 39. I spent most of my money when I got to 40 on two pieces of handcrafted and one treasured armour and have better mitigation than full legendary T4, and the new CA (Retaliate?) on a separate timer with pacify helped as well.</span><div></div>

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>pjackson wrote:<span><strong>I did not expect the tactic of having someone who is not a real threat yell his head off to attract the enemies attention</strong> and force them to hit him so that others can attack without worrying about defense to work.It is so silly I did not even think of it.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>You know.  He has a point here.  Guardians are really not a threat to a mob just a nusience.  Zerks are a threat because of their damage.  It really is simple.  Give the guardians something to make them a threat.  Up thier combat arts.  Give them something to damage and dibilitate and not just irritate the mobs.  Something significant and not a mediocre spell.

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div>You know.  He has a point here.  Guardians are really not a threat to a mob just a nusience.  Zerks are a threat because of their damage.  It really is simple.  Give the guardians something to make them a threat.  Up thier combat arts.  Give them something to damage and dibilitate and not just irritate the mobs.  Something significant and not a mediocre spell.<hr></blockquote>if you're bored in an exp group sometime actully start to /taunt a mob...  it doesn't help agro any but usually catches ppl offguard and makes for laughs

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>i am bored enough to level an alt.  Way too bored to play my Guardian in it's current state.</p><p>Funny thing is, real taunts give about as much hate as /taunt.</p>

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div>You know.  He has a point here.  Guardians are really not a threat to a mob just a nusience.  Zerks are a threat because of their damage.  It really is simple.  Give the guardians something to make them a threat.  Up thier combat arts.  Give them something to damage and dibilitate and not just irritate the mobs.  Something significant and not a mediocre spell.<hr></blockquote>if you're bored in an exp group sometime actully start to /taunt a mob...  it doesn't help agro any but usually catches ppl offguard and makes for laughs<hr></blockquote>No No Wabit.  once again I find my dirge more fun for this.  I see a PC about to take on something clearly tougher then they are.  I sneak up and debuff the bajezzes out of it.  The PC has a close fight but usually wins.  I then sit back and watch the mayehm.... Is he gonna try another... Yup... Ewww that wasnt pretty... (insert smiley with horns here)<div> </div><div>To be honest I do help a lot of people get mobs and quest mobs they need.  Its just that sometimes the evil side of me wins out.... Mwwaahahhaahh</div>

[Owa]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>pjackson wrote:<span><blockquote> </blockquote>I had heard the word tank in many contexts, but I had no idea of the specialized role it describes in MMORPGs.It bears no relationship to real-life tactics, or to those used in human run RPGs (of which I have a lot of experience).I expected to be able to block attackers from reaching those need protection by careful positioning, such as by occupying a doorway.I expected to be able to make a decent contribution to the damage a group deals.I did not expect the tactic of having someone who is not a real threat yell his head off to attract the enemies attention and force them to hit him so that others can attack without worrying about defense to work.It is so silly I did not even think of it.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font size="2">I concur entirely. For those not schooled in MMORPGs, the 'Tank' archetype is puzzling and ludicrous in equal measure. Even after playing EQ2 for over a year I still can't quite get my head around huge, fearsomely be-weaponed warriors doing less damage than dinky little scouts - no matter <em>how</em> sharp the scout's f*cking dagger may be. It's counterintuitive and completely at odds not only with real-life fighting, but also with any fantasy fiction you care to mention. </font></p><p><font size="2">It was this disbelief and dissatisfaction at how fighters were routinely and casually outdamaged by scouts, casters and even some healers that led me to give up my Zerker and play a Monk then finally a Bruiser. I still get outdamaged - but only by good players who know their stuff  - and at least I feel like a fighter and not just someone in a tin can waiting for everyone else to kill the monsters and have all the fun. :smileyindifferent:</font></p><p><font size="2">If being a Zerker felt underpowered damage-wise, I can only guess at how frustrating it must be for Guardians - who seemingly might as well not be there, aside from as a mob target.</font></p><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:18 PM</span></p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div><div></div><p><font size="2">...how frustrating it must be for Guardians - who seemingly might as well not be there, aside from as a mob target.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p>Thank you.</p><p>And this issue will invarriably lead to many Guardians (Warriors, fighters, tanks, players in general) leaving EQ2 for a less agro-based game like DDO or RF.  Fighters are physical DPS and high HPs, Scouts are utility and ranged physical DPS, mage is utility and magic DPS, and healers are heal and physical/devine DPS.  Everyhing else is a hybrid of those 4.</p><p>It's too late for SOE to make EQ2 like this.</p>

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>It's too late for SOE to make EQ2 like this.</p><hr></blockquote>I agree.</span><div></div>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<div></div><div> </div><div>Back on topic again, here's another interesting read, this time from the monk board.</div><div> </div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=27357" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=27357</a></div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Salgo]

<div></div><p>LOL You have to admit that they learned from the Brawler post cuz suddenly "ain't nobody saying nuthin" [Removed for Content]</p><p>Not even Super Monk... and he (or she) loves to post.</p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p>Disclaimer: All characters and events in this post -- even those based on real Super Monks -- are entirely fictional.</p></blockquote>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><p>LOL yes after the O/P puts his foot in it with the screenshot of a soloed dead level 62 ^^^ named there's definitely that air of "What.....solo? Can we solo...um......(whispers) *psst* I recommend no monks touch this thread with a 40 foot pole.....Isn't it just a lovely day today, I think I may go walk the dog."</p><p>Good to see the monks are just that bit more switched on ;p</p>

[Owa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ladicav wrote:<p>Good to see the monks are just that bit more switched on ;p</p><hr></blockquote>Pfft.

[CosmicAcidGu]

well, the game is designed so different classes can achieve different things. Before jumping on bruiser and monks, have you seen what enchanters or brigands can solo? Have you seen a monk tank any of the top raid mobs? I'm not talking about Lockjaw or Terrorantula. I'm talking about the real raid mobs. This is where the guardian shines.How often have you heard following quote: "Sorry no raids today we have no bruiser online"? A guardian's role is in tanking the toughest mobs that are out there. I'm pretty sure you knew this when you chose to play a guardian. This is not EQ1 where warriors did 90% of monk dps while being twice the tank. This is EQ2. Get used to the fact that you can't be the best at every aspect of the game. Your spot is at tanking raid mobs. That is already quite a good share of roles in a raiding guild.Finnster<div></div>

[Salgo]

<div></div><p>/sigh  Are we back to the "Guardians are meant for Raiding Only and for this you must give up DPS, Utility, and be one of the least efficient XP tanks and oh by the way you knew this when you chose your class. And anyways have you seen that Enchanter over there" argument?</p><p>I must now answer with the "this post has nothing to do with soloing "solo content" but instead is about soloing HEROIC content especially white and yellow cons and who cares about the enchanter so much because its the Fighter class that is supposed to be balanced with each other" standard reply.</p><p>But thank you for your input.  </p>

[Krooner]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>CosmicAcidGuru wrote:well, the game is designed so different classes can achieve different things. Before jumping on bruiser and monks, have you seen what enchanters or brigands can solo? Have you seen a monk tank any of the top raid mobs? I'm not talking about Lockjaw or Terrorantula. I'm talking about the real raid mobs. This is where the guardian shines.How often have you heard following quote: "Sorry no raids today we have no bruiser online"?<font color="#ff0000"> A guardian's role is in tanking the toughest mobs that are out there. I'm pretty sure you knew this when you chose to play a guardian</font>. This is not EQ1 where warriors did 90% of monk dps while being twice the tank. This is EQ2. Get used to the fact that you can't be the best at every aspect of the game. Your spot is at tanking raid mobs. That is already quite a good share of roles in a raiding guild.Finnster<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Sooooooo Guardians should never Ever EVER see a post on a Monk or Bruiser forum complaining about their inability to tank X-epic mob without that post being followed up by a monk or bruiser telling them "No you cant have that, thats a guardians job" RIGHT.</p><p> </p><p>Thought so.. thanks</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">02-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:38 AM</span></p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>lol, i'm glad you guys handled that one.</p><p>I'd be GLAD to be <em>the best tank in the game</em>, but the very people who are posting about soloing heroic content are the very ones who posted about "fighter balance."</p>

[Rah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>CosmicAcidGuru wrote:well, the game is designed so different classes can achieve different things. Before jumping on bruiser and monks, have you seen what enchanters or brigands can solo? Have you seen a monk tank any of the top raid mobs? I'm not talking about Lockjaw or Terrorantula. I'm talking about the real raid mobs. This is where the guardian shines.How often have you heard following quote: "Sorry no raids today we have no bruiser online"? A guardian's role is in tanking the toughest mobs that are out there. I'm pretty sure you knew this when you chose to play a guardian. <font color="#ff0000">This is not EQ1 where warriors did 90% of monk dps while being twice the tank. This is EQ2. Get used to the fact that you can't be the best at every aspect of the game. Your spot is at tanking raid mobs. That is already quite a good share of roles in a raiding guild.</font>Finnster<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Pre LU 13  fighter X who chose other than archetype Guardian states:</p><p>"It just isnt fair that I cant tank 10% of the raid content, INJUSTICE FOUL NERF THE GUARDIANS</p><p>Post LU13 fighter X states:</p><p><font color="#ff0000">"Your spot is in tanking raiding mobs"</font></p><p>Oh the irony, btw thanks for dropping in and telling me what my class role is.</p><p> </p><p>Rahge</p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>lol, i'm glad you guys handled that one.</p><p>I'd be GLAD to be <em>the best tank in the game</em>, but <font color="#ffff33">the very people who are posting about soloing heroic content are the very ones who posted about "fighter balance</font>."</p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm glad somebody else noticed this, so I wasn't imagining reading all those hundreds of posts a few months ago saying "I am a tank brawlers are tanks we are all the same all fighters are tanks a tank is a tank we all tank the same tank tank tank I am a tank I rolled my fighter to tank I am not dps we are all equal tanks brawlers are tanks and we need to tank, I am a tank I am a tank tank tank tank..." etc.</p><p>Now suddenly, it's "guardians are better raid tanks, brawlers are better solo. So it is very well balanced." (an actual quote)</p><p> </p>

[Owa]

<div></div><font size="2">You may be pleased to hear that we (Bruisers) got a bit of a stealth nerf. Nothing <em>too</em> drastic I think (jury's still out), but enough not to make us flavour of the month. </font>

[Gaige]

<div>So yup, that thread makes two monks <em>worldwide</em> that have solo'd that mob.</div>

[Wasuna]

<div>How many Guardians have soloed him? This whole topic is about balance. If a monk can do it a Guardian should atleast be able to get close.</div>

[Shizzirri]

<div></div>So what is the toughest mob guardians can solo lol? Just wondering if any of us actually have soloed anything, well blue

[Wasuna]

<div></div>I can solo just about any green ^^^ that is not a caster. I solo 54^^^ Maj'dul guards all the time for faction coins but that's over becasue I just got access to my last court.

[mastersard]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div><font size="2">You may be pleased to hear that we (Bruisers) got a bit of a stealth nerf. Nothing <em>too</em> drastic I think (jury's still out), but enough not to make us flavour of the month. </font><hr></blockquote>Contrary to popular belief, we dont want your class nerfed.  Grats on being good ehough to pull it off.  We only want to be equal.</div>