Observation about aggro control- Guardian -vs- monk

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div>I have a level 60 ogre guard with all adept III taunts, the single taunt, group taunt, single target dmg taunt and group dmg taunt.  He has several adept III maddening defense and all of his intercept/rescue CAs are adept III.  I have not upgratded any dmg CAs to adept III but have one master dmg CA but that's kind of how my guy is built.  He has mostly cobalt with 2 fabled armor items pulled out of the Poet's palace group zone.</div><div> </div><div>My monk is level 54 and all of his abilities are at adept I.  He is in full scaled leather and DW ironwood quarterstaffs.  Every ability he has is adept I.  Been working on him for some loose comparison information.</div><div> </div><div>What I am finding is that the monk consistently outperformes my guardian with aggro control.  I understand that there is a level difference, but in groups I am consistenly better with aggro management with my monk, as well as recovering aggro when a mob goes to another group member.  </div><div> </div><div>I just wanted to say, this is what I am seeing by comparison.  I will /cough try to get my dmg only CA's to adept III and see if my guardian will have any improvement on aggro recovery or holding aggro, but I have to predict that I am just going to be broke, and still not have any better ability in holding aggro.</div><div> </div><div>One suggestion is to have a similar ability to monks, so when we hit, we get a % chance to built aggro when we hit.  Maybe some type of reduction to the abilities that the monk gets, but something similar.  Reinforcement I believe is the guard ability may be another CA to improve, make the timer longer? resuse time shorter?  Reinforcement, if I remember correct is the CA that will increase hate position as will as aggro.  When I play my monk, I can have dragon advance up, and basically just cycle through the group targets and I have no trouble with aggro control.</div><div> </div><div>This is really my only complaint about the guardian class, I really love playing him otherwise and is my first choice to play.  Thanks for taking the time to read this. </div><div> </div><div>  </div>

[Sirlutt]

unfortunately its true, although the typical response your likely to get is "learn to play your class n00b, I control agro fine with my guardian".I have one of eah type of tank and I have to say the guard is the hardest to hold agro with concistently.  He uses more power, and I have to work alot harder.  Easiest is the bruiser or Pally.  Monk and Zerker arent simple, but arent difficult either.Guardian is a tank class you need to really put effort into playing, its almost like playing a Ranger because equipment is key, position is key and you need to co-operation of your group to work effectively.  Thats prolly why I enjoy my Guardian alot, lol.  I dont want guards to be point and click retain agro, but I'd like to not feel incompetent when I am decked out in 10 plat worth of legendary gear, with mostly adept III's and a few masters.  With that much coin/time invested I shouldnt feel like i am not in control of the situation, I should be able to use my abilties, and hold agro.  This is not always the case.<div></div>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div>I have a level 60 ogre guard with all adept III taunts, the single taunt, group taunt, single target dmg taunt and group dmg taunt.  He has several adept III maddening defense and all of his intercept/rescue CAs are adept III.  I have not upgratded any dmg CAs to adept III but have one master dmg CA but that's kind of how my guy is built.  He has mostly cobalt with 2 fabled armor items pulled out of the Poet's palace group zone.</div><div> </div><div>My monk is level 54 and all of his abilities are at adept I.  He is in full scaled leather and DW ironwood quarterstaffs.  Every ability he has is adept I.  Been working on him for some loose comparison information.</div><div> </div><div>What I am finding is that the monk consistently outperformes my guardian with aggro control.  I understand that there is a level difference, but in groups I am consistenly better with aggro management with my monk, as well as recovering aggro when a mob goes to another group member.  </div><div> </div><div>I just wanted to say, this is what I am seeing by comparison.  I will /cough try to get my dmg only CA's to adept III and see if my guardian will have any improvement on aggro recovery or holding aggro, but I have to predict that I am just going to be broke, and still not have any better ability in holding aggro.</div><div> </div><div>One suggestion is to have a similar ability to monks, so when we hit, we get a % chance to built aggro when we hit.  Maybe some type of reduction to the abilities that the monk gets, but something similar.  Reinforcement I believe is the guard ability may be another CA to improve, make the timer longer? resuse time shorter?  Reinforcement, if I remember correct is the CA that will increase hate position as will as aggro.  When I play my monk, I can have dragon advance up, and basically just cycle through the group targets and I have no trouble with aggro control.</div><div> </div><div>This is really my only complaint about the guardian class, I really love playing him otherwise and is my first choice to play.  Thanks for taking the time to read this. </div><div> </div><div>  </div><hr></blockquote>Why not just ask for your stance to proc more often or proc more hate? If you think cycling targets it easier then having all the mobs hit you and proc by all means ask away.Not sure what you are doing but the Guardian in my guild has no aggro problems. But then again he doesn't read the forums. <u><i>I guess thats why he's happy with his class.</i></u></span></div>

[Xeri]

<div></div><p>47 Guardian here.  I spent a few hours in a group with a  level 47 monk and 48 bruiser (when I was level 46) last night in CT.</p><p>I was MT for the first two hours, when the bruiser switched to MT (I felt he would be better suited for the ring event in the 'Heart of Fear' quest).  My observations:</p><p><u>Aggro Control</u>* The monk tended to grab aggro from me more frequently than the bruiser.  Whether this was a function of class or playstyle, I couldn't tell (although her dragon taunt was off).</p><p>* I tended to hold aggro better on multiple mob encounters (spamming of area taunts and hold-the-line type buff)</p><p><u>Ability to Tank Mobs</u></p><p>* Both the monk and bruiser fared better with lower level mobs (40-41^^^s).  Although I wasn't hit for large amount of damage, the monk and bruiser tended to avoided getting hit at all.</p><p>* With 47^^^ and 48^^^ mobs within the Temple, I would rate the monk and bruiser as somewhat better tanks.  In general, I would get hit much more often than the monk and bruiser but for much less damage.  On some hits, it appeared the bruiser would lose close to 35% of his hps.  On the other hand, the bruiser would get hit much less and I felt he was consuming much less mana from our healer (in the long run).</p><p><u>DPS</u></p><p>* Hands down, the monk and bruiser took the show (as they should).</p><p>As per the original poster, I would also recommend a utility that allows us to generate hate with each hit.  I'm not sure why the monk class has that buff while guardians do not, as it seems to me that monks play a more hybrid role of tanking / dps while guardians are first and foremost a tank class.  I should also note that I do enjoy my guardian.  I feel he is sub-par to other tanking classes in a number of respects but is still playable.</p><p>Grubs</p><p>47 Guardian - AB server</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div>I have a level 60 ogre guard with all adept III taunts, the single taunt, group taunt, single target dmg taunt and group dmg taunt.  He has several adept III maddening defense and all of his intercept/rescue CAs are adept III.  I have not upgratded any dmg CAs to adept III but have one master dmg CA but that's kind of how my guy is built.  He has mostly cobalt with 2 fabled armor items pulled out of the Poet's palace group zone.</div><div> </div><div>My monk is level 54 and all of his abilities are at adept I.  He is in full scaled leather and DW ironwood quarterstaffs.  Every ability he has is adept I.  Been working on him for some loose comparison information.</div><div> </div><div>What I am finding is that the monk consistently outperformes my guardian with aggro control.  I understand that there is a level difference, but in groups I am consistenly better with aggro management with my monk, as well as recovering aggro when a mob goes to another group member.  </div><div> </div><div>I just wanted to say, this is what I am seeing by comparison.  I will /cough try to get my dmg only CA's to adept III and see if my guardian will have any improvement on aggro recovery or holding aggro, but I have to predict that I am just going to be broke, and still not have any better ability in holding aggro.</div><div> </div><div>One suggestion is to have a similar ability to monks, so when we hit, we get a % chance to built aggro when we hit.  Maybe some type of reduction to the abilities that the monk gets, but something similar.  Reinforcement I believe is the guard ability may be another CA to improve, make the timer longer? resuse time shorter?  Reinforcement, if I remember correct is the CA that will increase hate position as will as aggro.  When I play my monk, I can have dragon advance up, and basically just cycle through the group targets and I have no trouble with aggro control.</div><div> </div><div>This is really my only complaint about the guardian class, I really love playing him otherwise and is my first choice to play.  Thanks for taking the time to read this. </div><div> </div><div>  </div><hr></blockquote>Why not just ask for your stance to proc more often or proc more hate? If you think cycling targets it easier then having all the mobs hit you and proc by all means ask away.Not sure what you are doing but the Guardian in my guild has no aggro problems. But then again he doesn't read the forums. <u><i>I guess thats why he's happy with his class.</i></u></span></div><hr></blockquote><p>I'm ok with whatever SOE wants to do, if they feel its a problem.  I am just posting my observations about the differences in the classes.</p><p>BTW, I'm glad your guardians are happy with their class, as I am.  It's always good to hear about guardians like me that play and enjoy tanking <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Shizzirri]

<div></div>From someone who's played both classes there's a considerable difference, no one beats a brawler on a single target mob in terms of holding aggro, in fact I don't even know why they give a monk single target taunts with dragon stance.  On a multi-target encounter a monk can struggle, if a part of the ae taunt is resisted there will be trouble for the monk holding aggro, if the mobs aren't killed fairly quickly the monk will have trouble, if there are more than one encounter in the camp the monk will have trouble, guardians are much better suited for those situations.

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Shizzirri wrote:<div></div>From someone who's played both classes there's a considerable difference, no one beats a brawler on a single target mob in terms of holding aggro, in fact<b> I don't even know why they give a monk single target taunts with dragon stance.</b>  On a multi-target encounter a monk can struggle, if a part of the ae taunt is resisted there will be trouble for the monk holding aggro, if the mobs aren't killed fairly quickly the monk will have trouble, if there are more than one encounter in the camp the monk will have trouble, guardians are much better suited for those situations.<hr></blockquote>To gain aggro on a single mob till Dragon stance procs. Sure you could use you group one right out of the gate but you would burn more power.Monks/Brusier taunts are thru DPS/Procs and anyone who thinks it's easy spending the whole night switching targets every few seconds to taunt all the mobs in a group are fooling themselfs. Can it be done? Sure, but I would much rather have a few group taunts instead. And if I have a Warlock in the group I wont take on mobs that are even con or higher cause one resists of my group taunt and he's as good as dead.</span></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span> And if I have a Warlock in the group I wont take on mobs that are even con or higher cause one resists of my group taunt and he's as good as dead.</span></div><hr></blockquote><div>What if the only reliable way of taunting you have <em>is</em> taunts?  Then taunt resists are going to seriously impare your agro ability, right?  Welcome to our world.  Every taunt we have can be resisted, including the HTL series.  We have no real DPS to fall back on.  We still have to cycle thru every mob in the group to gain and hold agro, only, in stead of hitting it a couple time, we have to taunt it, and hope the taunt <em>and</em> HTL dont get resisted.</div><div> </div><div>On top of that, if agro is lost, it's almost impossible to get it back.  We can "intercept" some of the damage, but that dmage comes to us un-mitigated.</div>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Shizzirri wrote:<div></div>From someone who's played both classes there's a considerable difference, no one beats a brawler on a single target mob in terms of holding aggro, in fact<b> I don't even know why they give a monk single target taunts with dragon stance.</b>  On a multi-target encounter a monk can struggle, if a part of the ae taunt is resisted there will be trouble for the monk holding aggro, if the mobs aren't killed fairly quickly the monk will have trouble, if there are more than one encounter in the camp the monk will have trouble, guardians are much better suited for those situations.<hr></blockquote>To gain aggro on a single mob till Dragon stance procs. Sure you could use you group one right out of the gate but you would burn more power.Monks/Brusier taunts are thru DPS/Procs and anyone who thinks it's easy spending the whole night switching targets every few seconds to taunt all the mobs in a group are fooling themselfs. Can it be done? Sure, but I would much rather have a few group taunts instead. And if I have a Warlock in the group I wont take on mobs that are even con or higher cause one resists of my group taunt and he's as good as dead.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't know if you would want the group taunts that we have as they are now.  I always seem to get resists.  Usually half of the encounter will resist.  I have this ability at adept III, but it seems to resist a lot.</p>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:What if the only reliable way of taunting you have <em>is</em> taunts?  Then taunt resists are going to seriously impare your agro ability, right?  Welcome to our world.  Every taunt we have can be resisted, including the HTL series.  We have no real DPS to fall back on.  We still have to cycle thru every mob in the group to gain and hold agro, only, in stead of hitting it a couple time, we have to taunt it, and hope the taunt <em>and</em> HTL dont get resisted.<div> </div><div>On top of that, if agro is lost, it's almost impossible to get it back.  We can "intercept" some of the damage, but that dmage comes to us un-mitigated.</div><hr></blockquote>Just like HTL Drangon Stance can also be resisted. The only difference is I have to hit for mine to work while you only need to be hit. And ever taunt a Monk has can also be resisted the major difference here is if my group taunt gets resisted I don't have another I can use like you do. Monks have one single target taunt, one group taunt and Drangon stance. All Fighters get rescue. Monks also have </span>Intercede which takes one hit and tranfers 100% of the damage to the Monk and deals 12% to target.. It's a Fighter skill.<span><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div>I don't know if you would want the group taunts that we have as they are now.  I always seem to get resists.  Usually half of the encounter will resist.  I have this ability at adept III, but it seems to resist a lot.</div><hr></blockquote></span>All fighters get their taunts resisted. It's not a Guardian problem it's a Fighter problem. And like I said above if my group taunt gets resisted I don't have another I can use. So even if Monk and Guardian group taunt gets resisted 50% of the time you still have double the chance to hold aggro on a group mob then I do. Plus the fact that all the other mobs hitting you are being taunted with HTL.I completely agree against a single mob a Monk/Brusier can hold aggro better then any class out there. But we lack in group aggro. Thats our trade off for having single target taunts.</div><div></div>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><div></div><div>True.  But with the speed at which a monk can hit a target, with a high haste....your Resists per minute...heh for lack of a better term, is higher.  the faster you hit equals the number of times the taunt can fire.  If we could speed up how fast mobs hit us when we are in maddening defense mode, that may help I guess.  So I'm thinking that with my monk, he can pull back aggro because he is hitting so quickly, theres many chances for resists to fail on the mobs.  This may be different for the bruiser, but I have no experience with them. </div><div> </div><div>Edited for further clarification***</div><div> </div><div>When I have dragon advance on, when I cycle through targets and smakem 11 times each, my monk is the king of group aggro control also.</div><p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:18 PM</span></p>

[Shizzirri]

<div></div>Mobs that are hiting us with HTL on are debuffed, slowed etc and are hitting us maybe once every 2.5 secs monks hit one mob probably 2-4 times if there duel wielding meaning it can proc up to 1-2 times on average, compared to once every 7.5 secs for us.

[Baldaena]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Guardians have only 3 PURE taunts : confront (solo),Protect (encounter) and inflamming Defense (reactive taunt)... Bruiser have EXACTLY the same taunts (only Quarel is not a pure taunt (and solo/ chance to proc = 25%)  but I'have read somewhere that 1 agro point = 2,5 point of dammage, so it seems balanced) look at my picture :smileywink:</div><div> </div><div>The two other taunts we have, are atk with taunt component and we had to hit the mobs if we want to see the taunt proc.</div><div> </div><div>So Problem on taunt resist is the same for guardians and bruisers... I'm not sure the core of the problem is here... I would look at group ability :</div><div>- to increase chance to hit (and so increase 'no pure taunt' agro)</div><div>- to decrease mental resist (if taunt are well based on it)</div><div> </div><div>I think the imbalanced comes from the follow facts:</div><div>- guardians are EXTREMELY dependants of ONE type of resist (mental ), because we mainly generate hate with our taunts</div><div>- I think it's <u>easier </u>to increase chance to hit and dps (haste, group buff, chance to hit, ability to reduce mobs'mitigation/avoidance (?), etc.) than decrese mental resist (few class have this ability... maybe we should ask for this ability...)</div><div>- If you look at figures, Guardians Taunt = Bruiser Taunt (even in the power cost ! )... so the balance is mainly based on Solo/encounter CA and dps (and ability of mobs to avoide/mitigate dammages)... I don't say it's fine or not... I only want to shed in light that bruiser & guardians have *almost* exactly the same taunts... so the problem is maybe not directly due to taunt resists because bruiser don't complain about it...</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><img src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/julien.ancele/bruisergardians_hate.JPG"></div><p>Message Edited by Baldaena on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:12 PM</span></p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><p>don't forget HtL only works if we get 1 pt of damage or higher...  blocks, parry, miss, wards it will not proc... </p><p>don't get me wrong in a place like PPR with 8gazillion skels HtL helps (i don't preward for them)...</p>

[MoonglumHMV]

<div>To keep with SOEs 'line' if you will, of brawlers - single MOB & Warriors - Group MOB, would having HTL proc a group taunt rather than a single target taunt?  Play with the numbers however SOE needs, but that would help in 2 ways, it would keep with the SOE vision of warriors - group, and also as long as you had at least one MOB hitting you, it would also help in pealing MOBs off of someone that draws aggro...</div><div> </div><div>Just a thought, that I'm sure has been suggested before, but <u><strong><em>I</em></strong></u> just thought of it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>hmm, i dont think that's been suggested yet...nice idea.  It would look overpowered on paper, tho.  In-game, figuring taunt resists, it would be a nice addition, and would help us to better hold agro with AOE DPS casters, and may allow us to be pre-wardrd/reactived/HoTed before pulling.</p><p>This bears more discusson.</p>

[Krooner]

<div>I can just see the trolls coming out on this one BUT.....</div><div> </div><div>I would like to see  the hold the line for Guardians changed to</div><div> </div><div>If target is struck increases threat by x number.</div><div>If traget parrys deflects or reposte incresases threat by a greater number.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>I know the trolls are gonna say.. well then to be fair it should do this for you know who.  NO You do far more damage than guardians you cant have greater DPS and = hate so get over it.</div><div> </div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>lol, trolls are so cute.</p><p>Anyway, yes, anything that would infuriate a MoB should generate hate for the Guardian.</p><p>And yes, the trolls wont like it.  Anything that helps Guards hurts them.  Any deficiency in the guardian class is due to lack of player skill.  Learn to play your class and stop being a crybaby.</p><p>I'd make a good troll.  Too bad i have a conscience and an intellect, and am open to suggestions.</p>

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>lol, trolls are so cute.</p><p>Anyway, yes, anything that would infuriate a MoB should generate hate for the Guardian.</p><p>And yes, the trolls wont like it.  Anything that helps Guards hurts them.  Any deficiency in the guardian class is due to lack of player skill.  Learn to play your class and stop being a crybaby.</p><p><strong><font color="#66ccff">I'd make a good troll.  Too bad i have a conscience and an intellect, and am open to suggestions.</font></strong></p><hr></blockquote><p>LMSAOROTFPMP</p><p> </p><p>:smileyvery-happy:</p><p> </p><p>Good one</p>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div>True.  But with the speed at which a monk can hit a target, with a high haste....your Resists per minute...heh for lack of a better term, is higher.  the faster you hit equals the number of times the taunt can fire.  If we could speed up how fast mobs hit us when we are in maddening defense mode, that may help I guess.  So I'm thinking that with my monk, he can pull back aggro because he is hitting so quickly, theres many chances for resists to fail on the mobs.  This may be different for the bruiser, but I have no experience with them. </div><div> </div><div>Edited for further clarification***</div><div> </div><div>When I have dragon advance on, when I cycle through targets and smakem 11 times each, my monk is the king of group aggro control also.</div><p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:18 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>If I tried to hit each mob 11 times in a 4 mob group I wouldn't make it to the 3nd mob before they were dead. And thats means the Warlock or Ranger can't AoE till I hit each mob? If my group taunt gets resisted on the 3rd mob in line any mage class with aggro is going to be hurting.. Also Monks don't proc with both hands. Remember SOE changed applied procs and this skill falls under that fix/nerf.Maybe what SOE should do is change Guardian non-pure taunt from Mental damage to whatever damage you current weapon is.See the problem with the reactive taunts is you can't make the Monk taunt based off getting hit cause by the time we procced once we would be dead. And you can't make the Guardian proc off hitting cause in order to taunt 99% would change from 1hd+shield to DW thus losing your bash and mitigation. Maybe a fix for that is simple have a 25% chance to proc every time a mob swings at you rather then a 50% chance every time you get hit.</span></div><div></div>

[Rah]

<div></div><p>Bump Guard DPS up and we wont have a quadjillion skill changes to worry about when it comes to aggro.</p><p> </p><p>Rahge</p>

[Yerma]

<div></div><p>Actually as been said before.</p><p>1) Make the HTL series proc thru wards (maybe even misses/parries/etc)</p><p> 2) and remove taunt resists (and worse case replace it with taunt mitigation)</p><p>and agro will not be an issue, but soloing will still be pitifully slow for guards. So</p><p>3) increase gaurdians offensive stance DPS</p><p>and  that should fix most of the complaints here.</p>

[Danan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>True.  But with the speed at which a monk can hit a target, with a high haste....your Resists per minute...heh for lack of a better term, is higher.  the faster you hit equals the number of times the taunt can fire.  If we could speed up how fast mobs hit us when we are in maddening defense mode, that may help I guess.  So I'm thinking that with my monk, he can pull back aggro because he is hitting so quickly, theres many chances for resists to fail on the mobs.  This may be different for the bruiser, but I have no experience with them. </div><div> </div><div>Edited for further clarification***</div><div> </div><div>When I have dragon advance on, when I cycle through targets and smakem 11 times each, my monk is the king of group aggro control also.</div><p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:18 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I do not believe that haste has any effect on proc rate.

[MrDiz]

Paladins out aggro you all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Single mob? Multi mob encounter? Pally Pally Pally. Sit down cos the god boys are in town and living it large.

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dananeb wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>True.  But with the speed at which a monk can hit a target, with a high haste....your Resists per minute...heh for lack of a better term, is higher.  the faster you hit equals the number of times the taunt can fire.  If we could speed up how fast mobs hit us when we are in maddening defense mode, that may help I guess.  So I'm thinking that with my monk, he can pull back aggro because he is hitting so quickly, theres many chances for resists to fail on the mobs.  This may be different for the bruiser, but I have no experience with them. </div><div> </div><div>Edited for further clarification***</div><div> </div><div>When I have dragon advance on, when I cycle through targets and smakem 11 times each, my monk is the king of group aggro control also.</div><p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:18 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I do not believe that haste has any effect on proc rate.<hr></blockquote><p>Correct me if I am wrong, but if you swing say, 25 times in a minute, hypothetically, each of those swings has say a 50% chance to proc an aggro increase.  Now, lets say you get yourself hasted 100%.  You are increasing the number of procs on the target.  I may be wrong on this, but I thought that is how it works.</p><p>P.S.  Please lets keep this civil, I don't want to regret posting this in the guard forums.  I was about to put it in spells, combat arts, and abilities.  I hope we can keep this as a rational discussion.</p>

[Junaru]

<span><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:Paladins out aggro you all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Single mob? Multi mob encounter? Pally Pally Pally. Sit down cos the god boys are in town and living it large.<hr>The only way a Pally is going to pull aggro off a Monk is to put hit Hate transfer buff on the Monk. <span>:smileymad:</span><span><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dananeb wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>True.  But with the speed at which a monk can hit a target, with a high haste....your Resists per minute...heh for lack of a better term, is higher.  the faster you hit equals the number of times the taunt can fire.  If we could speed up how fast mobs hit us when we are in maddening defense mode, that may help I guess.  So I'm thinking that with my monk, he can pull back aggro because he is hitting so quickly, theres many chances for resists to fail on the mobs.  This may be different for the bruiser, but I have no experience with them. </div><div> </div><div>Edited for further clarification***</div><div> </div><div>When I have dragon advance on, when I cycle through targets and smakem 11 times each, my monk is the king of group aggro control also.</div><p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:18 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I do not believe that haste has any effect on proc rate.<hr></blockquote><p>Correct me if I am wrong, but if you swing say, 25 times in a minute, hypothetically, each of those swings has say a 50% chance to proc an aggro increase.  Now, lets say you get yourself hasted 100%.  You are increasing the number of procs on the target.  I may be wrong on this, but I thought that is how it works.</p><p>P.S.  Please lets keep this civil, I don't want to regret posting this in the guard forums.  I was about to put it in spells, combat arts, and abilities.  I hope we can keep this as a rational discussion.</p><hr></blockquote></span>You are wrong, sorry. Procs work off a 3 second weapon dely regardless of how often you swing. If you have a weapon with a 5% chance to proc and it's a 1.5 delay you really only have a 2.5% chance to proc with each swing. Haste plays no part in proc rate.</blockquote></span><div></div>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><div>Okedoke.  My bad.  Thought procs increased.  Maybe the proc rate is just too fast overall I guess.</div>

[Krooner]

<div></div><div></div><p>Look at it this way.  Haste affects the chance to proc but not the over all proc numbers.</p><p>Given (T) time frame and (X) haste with (p) proc rate %.   As X increases the chance to (p) proc increases for that given (T) time frame.  But the whole equation is limited to the 3 second proc rule as a previous poster stated.  The whole proc rate thing is a pretty weak attempt to reign in certain melee classes IMHO. </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:30 AM</span></p>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div><div></div><p> The whole proc rate thing is a pretty weak attempt to reign in certain melee classes IMHO. </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:30 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Hey, you can say I am attempting to do all kinds of things, your opinions are yours.  I am posting my observations, I am not sure why I control aggro with my monk better but I'm just posting my experiences.  I am not on the "only guardians should tank" camp.  As a matter of fact, I get pretty tired of all the whinning in the guardian forum as it is.  I am just saying something is up with aggro control when comparing my monk to my guard. </p><p>Read into it what you will.  These are my observations and it is what it is.</p>

[Rah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:Paladins out aggro you all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Single mob? Multi mob encounter? Pally Pally Pally. Sit down cos the god boys are in town and living it large.<hr></blockquote><p>Dizzi expound on this please. In a new thread if at all possible, thanks!</p><p>Rahge</p>

[Krooner]

<blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div><div></div><p> The whole proc rate thing is a pretty weak attempt to reign in certain melee classes IMHO. </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:30 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Hey, you can say I am attempting to do all kinds of things, your opinions are yours.  I am posting my observations, I am not sure why I control aggro with my monk better but I'm just posting my experiences.  I am not on the "only guardians should tank" camp.  As a matter of fact, I get pretty tired of all the whinning in the guardian forum as it is.  I am just saying something is up with aggro control when comparing my monk to my guard. </p><p>Read into it what you will.  These are my observations and it is what it is.</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>let me clarify.  I meant a poor attempt to reign in Rangers.  This was just another way to try and reign in their out of control DPS IMHO.</p><p>Sorry if that seemed like I was talking about monks.</p>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div><div></div><p> The whole proc rate thing is a pretty weak attempt to reign in certain melee classes IMHO. </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:30 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Hey, you can say I am attempting to do all kinds of things, your opinions are yours.  I am posting my observations, I am not sure why I control aggro with my monk better but I'm just posting my experiences.  I am not on the "only guardians should tank" camp.  As a matter of fact, I get pretty tired of all the whinning in the guardian forum as it is.  I am just saying something is up with aggro control when comparing my monk to my guard. </p><p>Read into it what you will.  These are my observations and it is what it is.</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>let me clarify.  I meant a poor attempt to reign in Rangers.  This was just another way to try and reign in their out of control DPS IMHO.</p><p>Sorry if that seemed like I was talking about monks.</p><hr></blockquote>Oh ok.  I really don't have an agenda here, just wanted to post what I saw.  I see this when I play my monk, and when I play my guardian, I have a fellow guild mate that is a 60 monk and has no problems taking aggro, and holding group aggro.

[Wasuna]

<div>Attack taunt procs are normalized over 3 seconds. All attack procs are. This just means that an attack taunt proc doesn't go up or down in frequency as the fight goes on.</div><div> </div><div>The getting hit taunt procs have more change to fire in the first few seconds of a fight but then I'm always positing then anyway so HTL series spell is almost never up. When I get settled, HTL up and the fight steady all debuffs are on the mob and they hit me about 1/3 as many times as they did before. Now my getting attacked taunt proc is crap.</div><div> </div><div>When I group I almost always have an assassin in the group and they put their hate transfer on me. I then put Assauge on the highest DPS class in the group outside of the Assassin and there we go. I get complements on how well I hold agro. Of course I use twice the power of anybody else in the group and I screw around looking like I'm doing important stuff between pulls waiting for thet extra power tick.</div><div> </div><div>The mear fact that debuffs are applied to a mob, the mobs are stunned, knocked down and anything else that makes the mobs pause reduce a Guardians agro. Getting agro back off any class that doesn't have an instant hate reducer is just not going to work. If a caster gets agro they just tank it while I burn every combat art I have trying to get it back. Assassins I can get agro back off of but it's easy to see when they do their deagro which I hear they are going to lose in LU19.</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<p>let me clarify.  I meant a poor attempt to reign in Rangers.  This was just another way to try and reign in their out of control DPS IMHO.</p><p>Sorry if that seemed like I was talking about monks.</p><hr></blockquote>That'd be ok if Ranger damage was out of control.  Ranger damage, considering they have next to nothing BUT their ranged damage, is fine.  Whats lacking is other classes, most notably Assassins.  Rangers only have godly damage in very short bursts, against small targets.  In long epic fights lots of the other classes catch up, specially the casters.</span></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span>Ranger damage, considering they have next to nothing BUT their ranged damage, is fine.  Whats lacking is other classes, most notably Assassins.  Rangers only have godly damage in very short bursts, against small targets.  In long epic fights lots of the other classes catch up, specially the casters.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>I 100% agree with this.  Rangers to crazy damage, but its against (mostly) soloable content, and they simply burn thru the mob.  We as guardians dont need to point out the strengths of a scout class as a disparity in DPS.  That will only get a fun class nerfed for no real reason.</p><p>Same with Monk/Bruiser.  They're fixed, and really fun to play.  They dont deserve to be nerfed just because there's a disparity between them and us.</p><p>What we do need to do is make some noise about our class, and what we want to see happen to it.  We need to let SOE know we're not having <em>fun</em> with this class, and we expect to have them come up with something new and <em>fun</em> for us to do.</p>

[Krooner]

<div></div><p>let me clarify again.</p><p> </p><p>It was not my opinion that Ranger DPS was out of control.  I think SOE had that opinion and that is why they started slowly reducing their DPS.</p><p>I think it was too many posts about rangers soloing Roost and parts of Poets.  Let me just say that the proc issue affected a lot more people then I think the devs took into consideration.</p>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><p>Stop the presses!!!</p><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=92123#M92123" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=92123#M92123</a></p><p>I am outta line.  We have no issues with taunting mobs.  I have been straightened out.  Guys, we are the best at all taunting.....period.  When I play with my 60 monk bud and he has storm stance on and doesn't even have to hit taunts to pull away aggro on me, that is just my imagination.</p><p>I'll go back to sucking now heh.</p>

[mastersard]

<div>lol Skarl, he said you suck.  Has he ever even grouped with you?  Prolly not even on the same server.</div><div> </div><div>Anyway, the Proc changes were really hard on a lot of classes.  Offhand procs generated about 22% of my assassins DPS.  It's gone now.  And really, that wasn't outrageous DPS to begin with.  Now it's just medeocre.</div><div> </div><div>At least this will not affect hate procs on weapons, if they're ever added, which i think they should be. </div>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div>lol Skarl, he said you suck.  Has he ever even grouped with you?  Prolly not even on the same server.</div><div> </div><div>Anyway, the Proc changes were really hard on a lot of classes.  Offhand procs generated about 22% of my assassins DPS.  It's gone now.  And really, that wasn't outrageous DPS to begin with.  Now it's just medeocre.</div><div> </div><div>At least this will not affect hate procs on weapons, if they're ever added, which i think they should be. </div><hr></blockquote>Well hell, maybe I do suck.  Who really knows.  Heh, I just want to see guards get a bit of aggro control loving.  I am fine with a level tanking field, I am fine with other tanks dpsing better or having better utility, but I would think a guard, whos job is to pull mobs off others and protect others, would have a bit more power group taunts and/or a faster rescue refresh timer or something.