DPS or Migitation

[Johnd]

<DIV>After reading and adding to some posts here on the guardian forum I see two very different opinions.</DIV> <DIV>Some want more DPS to better function in a team ( either damage wise or for the agro ) and some just want to be a tank (migitation).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While those 2 opinions are around, how can we ever expect to be fixed ? This internal stuggle must be figured out first I would think.</DIV> <DIV>Just so we ( and the devs ) have a general idea about what a guardian should be in our opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just put your 2cents up, tell us why and what you want to see in a guardian. <STRONG>Don't try to attack or reply on others and what they post, just put your opinion here. </STRONG>See it as a open box. That way the devs can see what plays under the guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too keep it easy to read trough and have a higher chance of succes I will try to summon up the given ideas of a guardian. If the tread grows I will try to put the most important on top. Remember, this is just a sum of all the ideas, not a blueprint for a guardian. Dont attack this idea, just put in your 2cents. If more ppl share your idea, the point will automaticly get higher on the list.</DIV> <DIV>If you feel a desperate urge to discuss your statement, please open it up in a different tread. It will help us both a lot more that way. Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the ideas that are offered about how to fix us ingame, how good they even sound, I won't go into those. Personally I think its best to get this going first. After that its a lot easyer to summon up the problems we have and make a "guardian front" to SoE and present them a list of the problems and all the ideas we have to solve them. But lets not rush into that right now...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>So far the general idea of the guardian is :</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>- Being the best <STRONG>defensive</STRONG> tank ( can be done in various ways )</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>- Better agro management in defense mode ( for offensive mode you have other professions )</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>- Guard our friends ( comes back in agro management )</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>- More / better secondary skills ( this includes our offensive stance )</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>If its not possible to get this done ( cause all tanks have to be equal ) we would like more dps / utilities.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After all the replies on the tread ( thanks !! ) I summed it up in the above. If I forgot a major point, please let me know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Saterday the 7th of Jan. I will make a general idea from this tread and use it in the folowing treads. If you want to be heared, please reply to this tread before the timer runs dry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- edited to update this post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Johndoo on <span class=date_text>12-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 AM</span>

[craized warrior]

<DIV>The reason for these 2 opinions is simple:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some guardians want to be the superior tank as we were pre-LU (seeing as tanking is the only thing we can do atm, i dont think this is unreasonable)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other guardians realise this isnt gonna happen cause SoE are set in thier ways and they dont want to upset the monks again, so instead of asking for our superior damage taking abilities back they ask for better DPS (and/or better utility/agro management etc)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im of the first opinion myself, i chose guardian originally because i wanted to be the best tank, if i had wanted to play a DPS fighter with good utility id have played a monk. however from what ive seen so far from soe on this issue thats not going to happen, so the best i can hope for is increased DPS to at least make up for some of what was lost in the LU and to help balance the fighter classes out somewhat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey, maybe if we keep on setting our opinions forward like we have been they may eventually sort our class out like they did for the monks.</DIV>

[EpokSilvermo]

I am a Guardian, that means I am defending, protecting and even sacrificing my own life for others. My utility is fine. I give HP and melee offense/defense to the group. If I am not MT but backup (2nd fighter in a group is never a mistake) I can intercept damage (yes I know...) for the MT (or a healer) and the group. I am a Guardian. Neither an offensive fighter like Berserkers, Brawlers or Shadowknights, nor a Priest, DPS or Bard <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I am a Warrior. I use tower shields and plate armor to get the maximum possible protection. I take damage not avoid it. I am a Guardian. I don't care for lonesome adventuring. I am there to protect or help to protect a group of friends on a corporate mission <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sirlutt]

I want to be a heavy Mit Tank ..  I want to be an agro machine.As far as non tanking. I want to enhance the person who is tanking, I want to protect my group.  I want to allow the person tanking to generate more agro, have more HPs, better resists.  I want to be a defensive buffer.I still beleive we need a group agro siphon, single target that procs when group members are hit.  The opposite of the zerkers group wide berzerk buff.  Proc a small amount of hate and a 15 second mit buff group wide.  You cast it on the tank (either yourself or another member) and when someone is hit, it has a 5% chance to proc a small (say 5%) agro siphon (not reduction) from all group members to the target of the spell, as well as proc a small mit buff on the target of the spell for 15 seconds.  The key here is small.  With 6 group members, thatsonly 30% agro siphon, similar to amends.<div></div>

[Vandileir]

<DIV>I think the awnser to our problems can be found in adjusting our stances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think our defensive stance should further increase our aggro management on a % basis. Like say a 25-35% over all hate increase or something. (Don't quote me on numbers, just look at the concept) I think that would solve alot of our aggro management complaints, and also return a little flavor back to the class, and at the same time, keep us from standing out like we once did. I also think that adding a small damage shield is not unreasonable. Think about it, as the masters of mitigation, mobs should be hurting themselves when attacking us as there bones and weapons break against our legendary armor of doom. Again, this helps us maintain aggro and at the same time, embraces the "lore and flavor" of being defensive masters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think our offensive stance should further increase our DPS, but severly hurt us defensively. This will provide us with a little group versatility as well as make life easier for us soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This will leave us with the a little bit of freedom to do both well (though only one at a time), though we should truely shine in defenseive stance via aggro management.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Vandileir on <SPAN class=date_text>12-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:28 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Vandileir on <SPAN class=date_text>12-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:28 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Vandileir on <span class=date_text>12-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:29 PM</span>

[Wasuna]

<DIV>Sorry to burst your bubble. I expected the exact same thing when I chose Guardian. I played one to the 30's in beta and loved it then. I chose it again on release and while I saw a definate advantage in tanking ability, our utilty and DPS were always so low that I assumed itwas the design SOE wanted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>butchrulez wrote:<BR>I am a Guardian, that means I am defending, protecting and even sacrificing my own life for others.<BR><BR>My utility is fine. I give HP and melee offense/defense to the group. If I am not MT but backup (2nd fighter in a group is never a mistake) I can intercept damage (yes I know...) for the MT (or a healer) and the group.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Intercepting damage for anybody that isn't really suppose to get hit is always a fantastic idea. To bad it very rarely happens. Intercepting damage for another fighter just increases the total damage the group tanks and makes the healers job harder. That's the facts. Just read you intercet spell descriptions and the numbers are there.</FONT><BR><BR>I am a Guardian. Neither an offensive fighter like Berserkers, Brawlers or Shadowknights, nor a Priest, DPS or Bard <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>That is your defination. SOE says your an equal tank to all other fighters. They also say you get crappy DPS and utility that is pretty much useless.</FONT><BR><BR>I am a Warrior. I use tower shields and plate armor to get the maximum possible protection. I take damage not avoid it.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Shields help you avoid damage. That aside, LU13 also made tower shields the same effectivdeness as kite shields. Therefore the fact the Guardians and Bezerkers can use Tower Shields means nothing at all. It doesn't help us in any way and the only two easily accessable shields that I have found come from Scornfeathers Roost and Poets Palace and both are fabled KITE shields.</FONT><BR><BR>I am a Guardian. I don't care for lonesome adventuring. I am there to protect or help to protect a group of friends on a corporate mission <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>I don't either but the fact is I am only equal to other fighters when I am tanking. When I am not tanking I am drastically subpar. If my friends are on I always have a group. If not I always have rock nodes to harvest. Unfortunatly I only need 3 more T6 rares and I will have every single CA I use at adept 3.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Johnd]

<DIV>Vandileir I have a tough time reading your opinion about guardians from the post above. But I formulated it like this :</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>- guardians need better agro management in defense</DIV> <DIV>- guardians should get a small damage shield</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I might miss something, please let me know if I do. Its hard to shift the idea of how to fix us and the idea you have about guardians.</DIV> <DIV>For this tread I try to keep out the solutions, but I will take all the possible ideas with me in a follow up post.</DIV></DIV>

[Johnd]

<DIV>Wasuna, thanks for your input. And altho you mean it well ( I can read the positive tone in your post altho you bring bad news<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, this is not the idea of the tread.</DIV> <DIV>I tried to get a post that gives people the room to post how they would like to see themselves as a guardian. Its not about how we are or why we aren't that way.</DIV> <DIV>That way we can get a general idea of how people would like to play a guardian and what we expect from SoE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ones we have a general idea, we can copy that onto the guardian we are atm in the game. Then try to come up with ideas ( we will need many ) to fix our troubles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So feel free to amend with Butch ( or don't and share your idea about a guardian ), but please try to stay to the open opinion idea.</DIV>

[mastersard]

<P>We cant have mitigation.  More Mit would make us superior tanks, and that's what SOE is trying to get away from.  More Mit only makes it easyer for us to hit the cap, and would only affect tanking reds and raids.</P> <P>If we are given DPS, it would solve multiple problems.  Better damage means more direct hate gain, and better agro control.  Single target DPS is good for single target agro, AOE damage for multi target/group/encounter.  More DPS means faster fights, less healing, and less downtime in between.</P> <P>More DPS and some new flavor of utility is what we need.  Not what we want, to be sure, but we need it.</P>

[Vandileir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Johndoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Vandileir I have a tough time reading your opinion about guardians from the post above. But I formulated it like this :</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>- guardians need better agro management in defense</DIV> <DIV>- guardians should get a small damage shield</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I might miss something, please let me know if I do. Its hard to shift the idea of how to fix us and the idea you have about guardians.</DIV> <DIV>For this tread I try to keep out the solutions, but I will take all the possible ideas with me in a follow up post.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Let me see if i can break it down a little better. Please note that I am very fond of some of the changes already made since LU13, but there are still a few key fundamental flaws in the class/abillitie structure of Guardians.</P> <P>More or less there are 2 major complaints I see about guardians. We have weak aggro management, and weak DPS.</P> <P>So I propose that our stances be adjusted to make up for these weaknesses.</P> <P>Defensive Stance currently increases heat and trauma mitigation, which is good. It decreases attack skills, which i can deal with and consider a fair trade off. However, when you combine this with a few of our other abilities, we lose a dramatic amount of dps. With the way we are designed, this can often result in very poor aggro management.</P> <P>So i think the awnser here is to add a % to overall hate increase in our defensive stance, and maybe a damage shield.</P> <P>Offensively, we suffer in DPS when we tank, I expect this, and I understand this. What I dont understand is why we suffer in DPS when not in an MT situation. This leaves us very limmited in group situations.</P> <P>Here, I would like to see a more substantial increase in our DPS from our attack stance. To balance, maybe a more harsh penalty added to defense when in offense mode.</P> <P>I dont expect to do major DPS. This is why the offensive stance needs to be adjusted carefully. I do expect that as a Guardian, aggro management should be our claim to fame. It needs to be done in a way that embraces our class, and the ideas behind it. That is why I say adjust the defensive stance.</P>

[Burningho]

<DIV>There is a HUGE difference in what we want and what we can realistically hope to get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I (we) want to be the most defensive tank in the game and are willing to sacrifice all of our dps and utility for more mitigation and hp's.  That is why we chose to play the guardian class after all.  Most players that chose guardian did so because they wanted to be the best tank in the game, just like players that chose wizard/warlock/assassin/ranger did so to be the best dps in the game.  I don't know why that comes as a shock to people.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, most of us realize that SOE will never give us anything that would upset their precious tanking balance.  So, we ask for equal utility/dps to go along with our equal tanking, but would much prefer to be a pure tank class. <BR></DIV>

[Johnd]

<DIV>Vandileir thanks I will adjust the header post and keep the ideas of how to fix us in the back of my head.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Burninghope, thats the fun of this tread. You are free to post what you think it should be. The majority is always a lot more creative then the individual. If we all share our ideas on what a guardian is, we will get a very well founded idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It also gives people the room to tell what they love the most. Just that alone might put some heads at SoE. Later on we can worry about the idea of how to implement it all without breaking gameplay and other hard issues <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[mastersard]

<P>I will eventually play a pure tank class.</P> <P>It will most likely not be in this game, sadly.</P>

[Johnd]

<DIV>MasterSardis, it seems you share the idea most of the guardians do. So far I can see all just want to be a great tank. Pure and simple. Just let us tank and survive the heat.</DIV> <DIV>We don't need fancy stuff or big damage. Just a good taunt and our armor is all we ask for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But still looking for more opinions. Bring them on..</DIV>

[Ladicav]

<P>Simple reply to your thread. I don't want increased DPS and I don't want increased Mitigation. I think Guardin mitigation is already mainly determined by the gear you wear anyway. If you want more mitigation, work harder and get better mitigation gear. By the time you get even into legendary gear, your mitigation level is already pretty acceptable to be able to tackle all sorts of tanking roles.</P> <P>I also don't want increased DPS because other than better soloing, I don't know what purpose it will serve. I didn't pick a Guardian to solo anyway, I already knew they wouldn't be much good at it.</P> <P>An offtank role in a group can still be accomplished with a low DPS tank, so long as they have the proper tools to attract the mobs attention in the first place and just keep the mobs on you until the MT and group/raid is ready to kill it.</P> <P>What I do want, is better, more efficient taunting tools which make up for the lack of DPS, ones which also make sense to do the job we are meant to do, as both MT and offtank in various scenarios.</P>

[Terron]

I didn't choose to be a guardian to be the best tank. I didn't know what tank meant in the game when I chose to be a guardian. I choose guardian based on the description as the defensive armoured fighter. I wanted to have the best defense, expecting most of that defense to come from mitigation. The options when I made my choice appeared to be were: Berserker - higher damage, lower defense; and Guardian - lower damage, better defense. What I got as a guardian was much lower damage as expect, but defense that is little better at best and much worse at worst. When soloing attack is the best form of defense and the berserkers much better offense far outways any bonuses a guardian gets. There was a pointer to guards working well in groups but apart from as the MT for which we are supposed to be equal there does not seem to be any advantage to being a guardian. Whilst I would like the extra mitigation I expected I can see that to meet SOE's aim of all fighters tanking 'equally' that isn't going to happen. Since I can't have my first choice then I have to go from other options. <ul> <li>DPS that isn't as far behind berserkers as is currently the case - say 75% when fighting a single opponent in offensive stance (leaving berserkers still with a great superiority against multiple opponents). </li> <li>Ways of protecting other members of the group that are effective and noticable. ToS looks to be one, but  I'm only level 40 - we need something before level 30.  E.g. A CA that lets you select a friend to protect, that generates hate for you whenever they are attacked (think of it as you putting your body in the way of the attacks); </li> <li>Better defense that does not make us a better main tank. E.g. a CA that boosts defense or mitigation or blocking but reduces hate generation (because you look less dangerous hiding behind a shield?)</li> <li>Reduced dependence of having the best possible armour.  E.g. a CA that boosts the mitigation of armour by a %age that does not work on legendary or fabled armour (and is not as good as real legendary armour)</li> <li>The ability to use our protective arts on friendly NPCs and more quests like the Tarby one where the aim is to protect an NPC.</li> </ul> <div></div>

[Salgo]

<P>I also chose Guardian on the basis of being the best defensive tank in the game. I knew that I would be giving up a lot of DPS & Utility and therefore soloing would be slow and painful. However, since SOE has decided to balance tanking ability then I feel that the other half of the equation needs to be balanced as well. </P> <P>What this means IMHO:</P> <P>1) Increase our DPS in Offensive stance through a HASTE of some sort. This should lower our mitigation but not as to hinder the soloability of the character. Thus, this would help our soloing and off-tanking ability.</P> <P>2) Fix our HTL series of aggro management. Why this works counter-productively with avoidance is beyond me. Otherwise, leave this as is and give us some additional aggro management tools or REDUCE/ELIMINATE taunt resists. Aggro mgmt. is our new "Niche" isn't it? I'm not saying that we should be the best group tank but we should be EQUAL group tanks. We shouldn't be able to lock down aggro per say but we should allow the DPS'ers to open up a little more and not get aggro. This is balance. ATM Guardians are one of the worst XP Group tanks because of power consumption and the lack of DPS. This would solve that in defensive stance. So for example, instead of DPS'ers going 75% they go 85-90%. This way when all is said and done the mob goes down as fast as lets say a group with a brawler led group.</P> <P>3) Fix our Protect line of skills. If we allow the group to take more damage and make the healer work harder...this does us no good. It does not help us in our off-tanking role that much. Let us mitigate that damage because I don't think its working like that. I understand that this has to be delicately so as not to throw off balance when raiding.</P> <P>4) Better Utility that would help us when soloing or off-tanking. Unfortunately I don't have any specifics at the moment but it would have to be something different and unique so as not to infinge on other class abilities.</P> <P>Great post by the way...nice facilitating and thanks to the other classes for not hijacking the thread. This is just a brainstorming session of sorts to get a consensus of what is needed for Guardians.</P> <P>Salgore<BR>"Destiny"<BR>Lvl 50 Guardian<BR>Nektulos Server</P>

[Krooner]

<P>To paraquote MG: Guardians have great group buffs and can lock down agro like no other. </P> <P>If we cant get the following buff in before the next tier then please include it in T7.</P> <P>To make what MG stated an undeniable fact we need a group hate syphone.</P> <P><STRONG>name</STRONG>:  Empathic Rage.</P> <P><STRONG>duration</STRONG>: 15 seconds</P> <P><STRONG>recast</STRONG>:  3 minutes</P> <DIV><STRONG>Effect</STRONG>: When cast a % of all hate by the group is directed at the guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>% raises with spell level.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins have a nice spell called  ammends.  The spell works really well for them even though it is a single target spell.  In keeping with MG's vision of the guardian we would get a very short duration group buff along the same lines.</DIV> <DIV>This would give the group nice protection from mobs with memwipe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not over powering.... It doesnt call for anyone to be nerfed... and its MORE than in line with our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:13 AM</span>

[Johnd]

<P>Thanks for all the input so far <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I would like to get back to the main idea. I see a LOT of fixes and ingame solutions. But thats not the idea of the tread. Just describe how you want to be a guardian. This doesn't have to be ingame of a fix idea. Just a general idea of how you want to play.</P> <P>Don't go into detail of how to achieve this. For example I want to be a tank cause I wanna be able to take punches and keep other from getting punches. I will die solo, cause I got no healing. But with a group I will florish.<BR>I am a punch bag that can make my enemie so furious that they will attack me and only me.</P>

[Wasuna]

<P>There is a huge thread that is again stickied here. We actually got a bunch of that stuff like turning the room on the HTL series to a snare (we asked for no root but it was a compromise). Non of these things have helped me tank better, helped increase my DPS or even helped increase my utility.</P> <P>I want to be a tank. I chose that when I picked a Guardian. SOE has descided that they want all fighters to be equal. I can accept that so I want to be equal in DPS and Utility. Therefore my choice at this point would be more DPS and actual useable utility.</P>

[mastersard]

<DIV>I agree.  I rolled a fighter, choose warrior, and then Guardian because it was the best choice for 1) holding agro, and 2) taking hits.  Best pure tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now there <EM>is</EM> no best tank, we're all equal, except that i <EM>can't hold agro reliably with taunts alone beacuse of random resists, can't DPS well enough to maintain agro realiably. </EM> Yet i tank at the same level as every other "fighter"?  Not balanced.  Not fair.  We need the DPS.  We need it to be equal soloers, and equal agro managers.  No, we didnt sign up to solo well, we wanted to "guard" our friends.  We didn't sign up to do hella DPS, we wanted to <EM>absorb</EM> hella DPS from the MoBs.  But we're not going to get the "best tank" status back.  SOE has already said that.  So what's left for us?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Better DPS to balance us against all the other fighters.</DIV>

[BenFarWest]

<P>I agree with Vandileir,  I think the problem is in the Stances, although I only play a lvl 52 guardian and have not recieved the higher lvl stances yet.  Where I disagree is in where the aggro gain or aggro management should be.  I think it should be in the offensive stance.  And this is why if we are offensively attacking somthing we should be gaining hate any way.  Lets say where in our defensive stance and we loose agro to some one in our group we no longer require the extra defense from our defesive stance. Some one elese has taken on the role of the tank and to make sure no one eles gets it we flip to offesive and start bashing the agro monster plus with the added agro gain and dps from the offensive we may regain and switch back to defensive.</P> <P>Some cons to this would be the fact that when we are not MT we may actully take aggro from the MT.  This does happen to me at the moment, when I'm with other tanks that are not Guardians and usually I don't care if another tank takes agro I just switch stances and let him finish the job so maybe its not a bad idea after all.  </P> <P>As for the defensive stance the only thing I could think would be to add a buff to Agility or Stamina or both, Currently there is not much of a stat buff in any way except mitigation, granted I still have no Idea how mitigation actully works just glad that it does.  Or somthing that would be really nice is somthing that helps out with stuns, So we are not always loosing our aggro to stuns.  that could be part of the mitigation factor that I don't understand.</P> <P>Bratheo lvl 52 Guardian, Inny</P>

[Ladicav]

<DIV>While I understand your reasoning BenFarWest, Berserkers best agro management is in offensive stance already, and they do it better, and more efficiently. We can't compete with them in this area, we shouldn't be having to, we aren't Berserkers after all. They are already the naturally and by design offense based tank of the Guardian/Berzerker relationship.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Johnd]

<DIV>From the last 3 posts I can read you 3 also want to play a defense tank. Most replies I see in the tread are "Cause we suck defensive, we want more dps / utilities"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So far it seems all the guardians still dream of being the best defensive tank. I am gonna change the header post to good defense tank as a overall. Cause of lack of that, we want either more dps / more utilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If any of you have other ideas of what you want to be, let yourself be heared <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Aama]

<P>We're Guardians...</P> <P>We're supposed to guard people.</P> <P>Let me try to explain what i feel. Other platewearing tanks can have the exact same mitigation as we do (not counting buffs). Then what makes the guardian superior in guarding someone?? If we're not superior tanks, we might as well just have kept that "warrior" class title. </P> <P>So basically.. I don't feel I need DPS. I chose the guardian to be guarding not doing damage. I personally would vote for simply giving us an added percentage in our overall mitigation (5-10%). Since we have skill that takes damage for other people, I feel we need to take it better. Not much point in taking damage for someone if we get hit like a target on a shooting range.</P> <P>That's what I think <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Terron]

I play a guardian, but I don't want to play the best defensive tank. I would like the best (melee) defense because that is what the description of guardian promised, but not specifically for tanking. I'm quite happy with there being many classes that can tank roughly equally well. Ideally each tank class should shine in particular circumstances. I would like to see more of an emphasis on the differences between them, so that there is a clear advanatge to choosing a particular type of tank for certain jobs. Then a group/raid might want multiple tanks so that they have the right one for each encounter type, and the job/fun/glory of being main tank gets shared. There should be a good range of raids suitable to each type of tank, and some that require combinations. I don't think there is that much of a problem with tanking though. I think it more important that guardians get things that make them more useful when not tanking. If guardians were the best tank most of the time, then it would be justifiable that they are inferior when not tanking. Since we are not, SOE do not want us to be, and I don't want us to be the best tank we should be roughly level with other tanks classes when not tanking, which I do not think we are. So what I really want is more to be more capable when not tanking that is in keeping with being a defensive/protective minded heavily armoured warrior. <div></div>

[mastersard]

The disparity is not with tanking any more.  We all absorm/negate damage on a pretty equl level.  The issue now is that Guards as a whole bring nothing to a group <EM>but</EM> tanking.  No discernable DPS, no real (non-MT) utility.  If we aren't main-tanking, we're a plate wearing cheerleader.

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>To paraquote MG: Guardians have great group buffs and can lock down agro like no other. </p> <p>If we cant get the following buff in before the next tier then please include it in T7.</p> <p>To make what MG stated an undeniable fact we need a group hate syphone.</p> <p><strong>name</strong>:  Empathic Rage.</p> <p><strong>duration</strong>: 15 seconds</p> <p><strong>recast</strong>:  3 minutes</p> <div><strong>Effect</strong>: When cast a % of all hate by the group is directed at the guardian.</div> <div> </div> <div>% raises with spell level.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Paladins have a nice spell called  ammends.  The spell works really well for them even though it is a single target spell.  In keeping with MG's vision of the guardian we would get a very short duration group buff along the same lines.</div> <div>This would give the group nice protection from mobs with memwipe.</div> <div> </div> <div>Its not over powering.... It doesnt call for anyone to be nerfed... and its MORE than in line with our class.</div> <div> </div> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">12-29-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:13 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Actually Paladin's have that too. Sigil of Heroism can temporaily siphon a % of group hate and direct it to the Paladin. However, it has been reported that Sony messed up and this bugs/cancels Amends.</span><div></div>

[Vormulac]

<DIV>Dps? Mitigation? how about both, least on a raid standpoint in defensive stance in our normal MT group i was pushing 400+ dps on every fight on 60+ x4's now this included procs and such added by other classes and i was wielding a t6 legendary (swiftwhisper) 59.6 dmg rating weapon, i was still using my mit buffs and other defensive ablitities and keeping capped at 80% mit. And agro was excellent. Takes some playing but it can work just gotta find what classes best suit your needs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now in a normal group i can still push 200 with a descent( notice i didnt say perfect) group with a few class's that help boost your dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vormulac Unsleep</DIV> <DIV>Guild Leader <A href="http://shatteredmoon.hopto.org" target=_blank>Shattered Moon</A></DIV> <DIV>Neriak</DIV>

[Krooner]

<P>Frick ing Hell.  </P> <P>So what the hell do we get these days that others dont have... NOTHING it seems... What does everyone else have that we dont... Ummm lets see.</P> <P>Heals</P> <P>Evac</P> <P>RES</P> <P>FD.</P> <P>And tons of other stuff Im sure.</P> <P> </P>

[KiseroHT]

<P>this may be a little specific but i would like only two things.. increased dps and absolute no-knockback on our HTL series. make the no-knockback feature incorporated into def stance.. and the incresed dps incorporated into off stance.. fine. some tweaking like that imo is the only thing that is gonna be done. but i appreciated your thread i think it as helpful as can be.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Aama]

<P>I'd have to with mastersardis there. We're cheerleaders...</P> <DIV>What really makes me wonder, is how SoE gave all fighters about equal tanking ability and just thought we Guardians would say.. "Oh. Sweet more tanks. What the hell i just wanna log in to give SoE the monthly fee."??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What bums me, is what has already been stated many times. We lost the "feel" of the guardian.</DIV> <DIV>To me what SoE did is like this:</DIV> <DIV>You go out and buy a new sportscar. It's kewl, it rocks and goes really fast.</DIV> <DIV>Then one day you get home, and the neighboors huge van with loads of space, is magically transformed into a van that goes as fast as your sportscar.</DIV> <DIV>So he gets the space of the van PLUS the racing abilities of your pricy sportscar.</DIV> <DIV>And yourself.. Well you get to keep the sportscar, but no more space in it for you :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Might be a weird example, but thats what SoE did to us in my opinion.</DIV>

[Wasuna]

MT's get just about all buffs you can think of. That is the perfect DPS group for the MT but it's built for other reasons. As you said, 200 DPS is what I keep hearing from everybody here as a normal Guardian DPS, and that is with really good T6 equipment.

[BenFarWest]

<P>Ladicav sorry I was not trying to make us zerkers and I was unaware that they allready have a stance like this. On the other hand I was thinking back to our defensive stance, again I sitll don't think we should sifen hate from others in the group, and where I tend to loose agro is when I've been stuned a few to many times or nocked away from the fight.  So I though maybe we could have some sort of a Deflect % Damage Back added to our Defensive Stance. Or maybe on one of the intercept line, hell I don't know I just want to have fun again and be able to get in to a group.</P> <P>I remeber befor I hit 50 I was able to get a group outside of my guild no problem, and now I may sit around trying to find stuff to do solo with LFG on and for hours and hours.  Maybe it is DPS not that I'm looking for more DPS maybe just maybe if I could DPS the same as another Tank Class I could get into groups.  Mitigation, I wish there was some way to figure out how this works if any one could explain it in pure english maybe I would think we need more mitigation.  Right now all I see is a % to absorde damage for diffrent kinds of damage and if that is the case then why do we have resists do they do any thing to mitigate dmg.</P> <P>I think I just want to be apart of the group again and help out like I was befor I hit 50, One thing I know that I do is I can stun for a short period of time with a couple of my attacks maybe if they added stun to a few more of the attacks that we have I would feel like I was helping the group in some way or another even better let us mezz with one our attacks then we might be desirable again.  I really don't know, maybe we are just fine the way we are I know where not supose to be an offensive tank and I like being defensive but I just dont see how more mitigation can help us without helping the other tanks leaving us still not happy with our class.  Where does mitigation come from, our armor right, or am I wrong. </P> <P>Thanks again for pointing that out to me Ladicav.  I really have been enjoing this thread and the discussions brought up in it Thanks.</P> <P>Bratheo lvl 52 Gaurdian, Inny</P> <P> </P>

[mastersard]

DPS while MTing a group/raid is <EM>near</EM> the DPS of a <EM>solo</EM> brawler class(about 1/3 if i'm seeing right).  So, with capped stats, procs, and fabled gear, we can come close to that of another fighter class self buffed.  Where's the trade-off?  Better tanking?  Nope.  Better Utility? Nope. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we're going to be the "most defensive" tank, that means we are "better" tanks.  If we're going to be the "specialist" tank, it means we tank "better" because we dont have anything else to fall back on.  SOE won't do that, so what do we need to ballance us all out now?  The choices are DPS and defense, and we can't have more defence.  Gaige said so.</DIV>

[Ag0ny]

As a raid Main Tank i'm more wanting argo i not to bad on mitgation I BUFF out at 5077 mitigation so with the right gear i not to bad on mitigation unless its orange which is a totally different area in the game. More dps would be nice but i want to see more along the lines of more argo.  When i started a guardian i knew from the start hey this guys going to suck at dps.  If i wanted to be dps i would  of made a ranger. One solution to argo would be dps but if add dps monk and zekers are goign to cry well make us tank like guardians. I think somehting along the lines of Hold the line Backwards where we have a buff that everytime we hit it generates hate. Not sayign a tone you know like 133 hate or 200 hate or something.  Even if it slowed us as long as it was where you could click on and off and it not have a 15 second timer like Reinforcement does. cause at this point i think guardians and take hit pretty well. But i know my problem is my wizards and rangers end up tanking it more then i do sometimes. <div></div>

[Johnd]

<DIV>Ones again a big thank you to all of the replies. I see many very constructive and positive things from guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main idea from the guardian is still <STRONG>tanking</STRONG>. We love to be punched and make sure others <STRONG>dont</STRONG> get punched. Before confusion arises, thats the general idea I get from reading the tread. My own ideas I keep for myself, to keep a clear and objective view on things.</DIV> <DIV>The DPS seems to be a "trade off" for better agro management <STRONG>or</STRONG> lack of 2nd skills. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I updated the main post and put a timer in it. This tread seems to fullfill his purpose very well and a clear general picture is being generated at a very fast speed.</DIV> <DIV>After the timer runs out ( 1 week from now ), I will start a new tread with the general idea we have, what we miss and then leave it open for you to fill in your fixes. That tread will be just like this one, idea based. Not ment to attack the ideas, just supply the ideas. Later on the discussions will light up in new to come treads.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ones more a big thanks and keep up the positive feedback. Still hope more guardians will speak up and let SoE know what they want to be in the game. A general picture of your guardian is the key here. Dont be held back by game mechanics or balance.. just say what you would like to be.</DIV>

[mastersard]

<P>Agony, etc,</P> <P>Keep in mind that more DPS means more <EM>direct</EM> agro.  DPS is an inresistable taunt.  No you will not hit every time, but the average damage value will contribute to your overall hate generation.  It's this reason that monks/bruisers are so good at single target agro: they have excellent single target DPS( and a stance excatly like what you are asking for, which i like, BTW).</P>