No more ArcheType system?

[Geothe]

<P><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=6622#M6622" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=6622#M6622</A></P> <DIV>The producer's Letter:</DIV> <DIV>"In a coming update, tentatively set for mid to late January, people will be able to pick their final class right at character creation and begin earning appropriate abilities and spells from the outset."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No more starting everyone as a "fighter" but you start as your actual class from the get go.</DIV> <DIV>So this mean we can finally get rid of this "we are all fighters so we all need to tank the same" BS that has been around since the start and make Guardians what they once were again? </DIV> <DIV>Tanks.</DIV> <DIV>Low DPS.  Low Utility.</DIV> <DIV>Pure Tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah, its a dream, but worth a shot. lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sirlutt]

dont look to that to do anything significant for guardians .that just means you can be a guardian from day one.. failing to hold agro ... doing next to no damage.. and having no role outside MT .. rejoice !<div></div>

[mastersard]

<DIV>No more "I'm a fighter, therefore i must tank like all the other fighters."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prolly the first step to moving Monks and Bruisers into the DPS group...</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mastersardis wrote:<BR> <DIV>No more "I'm a fighter, therefore i must tank like all the other fighters."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prolly the first step to moving Monks and Bruisers into the DPS group... <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Doubtful.</P> <P>Its primarily for the mage classes, at least that is how it read.</P> <P>I realize he references an SK there also.</P> <P>He doesn't mention changing the roles of the classes at all, only being able to play them and experience them "as an SK" from the beginning instead of as a general fighter and then general crusader for the first 20 levels.<BR></P>

[Wasuna]

People will be able to see from the beginning that Guardians are equal at best in some areas and hugely defeciant in other areas. That way we won't have people comming to the Guardian forum asking if they made a mistake for the first 19 levels and now they have no acceptable choices.

[SniperKitty]

I think this is a very bad idea.  I liked the AT system as it gave new players a role very early on.  Fighters were tanks.  Priests were healers.  Scouts and mages did dps mostly.  That's the way it should stay.  Of course now we're going to have the so called "hundreds" of guardians whining and moaning once this goes live that they're the only true tank class and should be the only tank ever. <div></div>

[Ladicav]

<DIV>Looking past the obvious changes, this just screams that devs/managements have/had no faith in their initial product. Altering the entire combat system and now altering the initiate class system. The fanbois will say but these changes were needed, the realists will say if the game was coherent in the first place, sweeping changes wouldn't be needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way it no longer matters to me anymore, I'm barely hanging on now, to a game that I have lost almost all faith in also.</DIV>

[Hammerdim]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>I think this is a very bad idea.  I liked the AT system as it gave new players a role very early on.  Fighters were tanks.  Priests were healers.  Scouts and mages did dps mostly.  That's the way it should stay.  Of course now we're going to have the so called "hundreds" of guardians whining and moaning once this goes live that they're the only true tank class and should be the only tank ever.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's not like we can do anything BUT tank :smileymad:</DIV>

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>Hammerdim wrote: <div><font color="#ffff00">It's not like we can do anything BUT tank :smileymad:</font></div><hr></blockquote> My pally does fine backing up the healer and aiding the main tank if we're facing something she can't tank (i.e. lvl 40 mobs when I'm 32 hehe).  Guardian that was facing mobs they can't tank could use their buffs, intercepts and such to mitigate some of the damage on a main tank.  I do that all the time.  And don't give me that bullhonky about making the healer work more.  Splitting the damage is beneficial to many healers.  Especially wardens.  It makes it easier to keep the main tank alive and pop a group heal ever now and then to top off others. </span><div></div>

[Pry]

<P>The Archtype system as a whole is a pretty terrible system in the first place.  It gets you into issues just like what's happening now, when the game developer can play God over characters and you have no choices for customization except to start an alt and relive the entire content.   Proof?  Even a /respec won't get you out of the hole your in if you hate your character.  And given SOE's penchant for making things worse, one would want to be able to recustomize their character from time to time based on whatever nut-job "idea" is forced upon you by some low level programmer.</P> <P>I personally prefer a skill based system.  No system is perfect though for everyone.</P>

[Aaliamz]

<div></div>nm <div></div><p>Message Edited by Aaliamzen on <span class=date_text>12-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 AM</span>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hammerdim wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>It's not like we can do anything BUT tank :smileymad:</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My pally does fine backing up the healer and aiding the main tank if we're facing something she can't tank (i.e. lvl 40 mobs when I'm 32 hehe).  Guardian that was facing mobs they can't tank could use their buffs, intercepts and such to mitigate some of the damage on a main tank.  I do that all the time.  And don't give me that bullhonky about making the healer work more.  Splitting the damage is beneficial to many healers.  Especially wardens.  It makes it easier to keep the main tank alive and pop a group heal ever now and then to top off others.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Only one tank can be buffed with the good buffs due to concentration issues. </P> <P>Guardian using protect abilities actually increase the amount of damage the group takes by a very significant amount.</P> <P>Guardians have very POOR DPS and even when in full offensive with 2H or DW and whatever else we can do we still rank in the bottom 3-4 of all classes in DPS so you would never have a Guardian in your group if they are not the tank or just a good friend you feel sorry for.</P> <P>Heals can only effectively be put on one target. If they healer starts swapping around then the main target loses significant healing due to recast times and the short duration of spells.</P> <P> </P> <P> Try again please.<BR></P>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wasuna wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hammerdim wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>It's not like we can do anything BUT tank :smileymad:</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My pally does fine backing up the healer and aiding the main tank if we're facing something she can't tank (i.e. lvl 40 mobs when I'm 32 hehe).  Guardian that was facing mobs they can't tank could use their buffs, intercepts and such to mitigate some of the damage on a main tank.  I do that all the time.  And don't give me that bullhonky about making the healer work more.  Splitting the damage is beneficial to many healers.  Especially wardens.  It makes it easier to keep the main tank alive and pop a group heal ever now and then to top off others.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Only one tank can be buffed with the good buffs due to concentration issues. </P> <P>Guardian using protect abilities actually increase the amount of damage the group takes by a very significant amount.</P> <P>Guardians have very POOR DPS and even when in full offensive with 2H or DW and whatever else we can do we still rank in the bottom 3-4 of all classes in DPS so you would never have a Guardian in your group if they are not the tank or just a good friend you feel sorry for.</P> <P>Heals can only effectively be put on one target. If they healer starts swapping around then the main target loses significant healing due to recast times and the short duration of spells.</P> <P> </P> <P> Try again please.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Nail on the head there. And to you people who do NOT play guardians you have no clue about our problems. Until you have played more than one fighter type including a Guardian you have nothing to compare to. Well let me tell you, when you play a class with pretty much zip for utility, crap dps, uses power to the point of being OOP, every single fight and making people WAIT for the next pull then please come give us some of your insight and wisdom. Until then please shut your pie holes. Guardians have NOTHING to offer that every other single fighter cant provide. And those other fighters bring everything to the table we have PLUS utility and alot more dps. I cant even solo worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and i am talking about SOLO mobs too, it takes me 3-4 times longer to kill anything vs other fighters.</P> <P>The archetype system as it currently stands isn't making all fighters equally desrireable in a group, PERIOD.</P>

[SniperKitty]

Wow, such ignorance about how a healer works.  Any healer worth their salt will be able to split heals effectively and keep two or more people alive.  I know for a fact as a warden and a fury and a defiler that I can keep multiple people alive and prefer it over trying to keep up with one tank taking huge amounts of damage.  If the damage is split between several people, I can use my very power efficient GROUP HEALS.  <--- See that?  Healers have spells that HEAL THE ENTIRE GROUP.  They're also pretty darn power efficient if several people are taking damage. 500 incoming dps on one person is not always easy to heal. 300 incoming dps on two people is easier. 200 incoming dps on three or more people is even easier.  I could keep a group alive for hours without end at that rate.  Power regen + manastone and I would never run out.  But trying to keep a single target alive against a massive amount of incoming damage as a single healer is not always that efficient.  Especially as a warden with regens.  The recast timer on a druid's regen spell is half the duration.  For the mentally challenged, that means I can keep a healing spell on two people, that heals for @125 hps.  On top of that I can throw on a group regen that heals for another @75-100 hps. Just by those rough numbers, it clearly shows that healing multiple people at the same time is easier and more efficient than trying to keep up with heals on one tank.  I play several types of tanks as well.  Monk, paladin, and berzerker.  Each of those have some defensive abilities I can use to help the MT, but no where near the amount that a guardian can provide.  As a berzerker, I would love to have a guardian along for their defensive abilities so I could turn on all the offensive stuff I have and tank better.  Finally, button mashing combat arts as soon as they refresh is not the best way to get dps as a tank.  My pally does better dps by using a 2H sword and using only a few combat arts that stun, debuff, or knockdown.

[Wasuna]

<P>I fight yellow/orage stuff that nukes for 3K+ and can hit for 1.5K in a single group situation and I have around 7-8K HP buffed. When I fight blues and greens I can do whatever I want including getting rid of my shiled and playing with my protect abilities. Many times our single healer will go AFK when we are fighting lower stuff and we'll do 2-3 fights while they are gone. The fact is any fighter can do that. If I'm in a group and not MT and use my protect abilities when fighting hard stuff  I can add 10-20% damage taken to the group and the healer would have SERIOUS touble keeping up.</P> <P>Don't think I haven't tried this. I want to like my abilities and I want to have fun with my Guardian. Coming here telling us we are wrong is just going to make you look bad.</P> <DIV>Gah.. didn't even catch that 2H weapon DPS remark. You know what would hapen to your pally if he went into a orange con fight with a 2H as tank? He's be releasing and coming back to try again. I have an imbued T6 1H club, T6 imbued 2H claymore, T6 imbued 1H hand axe and my primsatic. I swap around a lot in different situations but if I'm getting smacked around it's always my shield and 1Hander that comes out.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Wasuna on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:Wow, such ignorance about how a healer works.  Any healer worth their salt will be able to split heals effectively and keep two or more people alive. <hr></blockquote>On a raid? I dont think so. Unless its a damned easy one. Most raids are designed to be skin of the teeth sort of things. My group heals are all any 'tank that isnt tanking' gets unless we have so many healers I can goof off. Im not taking my off the main tank to keep a fairly unimportant member of the raid alive. If I take me eye of the main tank and we loose him, its wipe. If i loose the guardian... it really is not gonna make much difference to the raid.My guild have a paladin, sk and berzerker and we are all in agreement now that I should retire my guardian and start a more useful toon. Three tanks is more than enough for a guild our size. And we especially dont need chars that are not really adding anything other than some nice buffs. Unless they are really really nice buffs (chanter etc).

[SniperKitty]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffff00">Wasuna wrote:</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><p><font color="#ffff00">I fight yellow/orage stuff that nukes for 3K+ and can hit for 1.5K in a single group situation and I have around 7-8K HP buffed. When I fight blues and greens I can do whatever I want including getting rid of my shiled and playing with my protect abilities. Many times our single healer will go AFK when we are fighting lower stuff and we'll do 2-3 fights while they are gone. The fact is any fighter can do that. If I'm in a group and not MT and use my protect abilities when fighting hard stuff  I can add 10-20% damage taken to the group and the healer would have SERIOUS touble keeping up.</font></p><hr>Wrong.  Healers have group heals for a reason and they're usually pretty mana efficient.  Especially a Warden's group heals.  Just last night we had a 57 guardian in cobalt tanking the epics in Rujark.  Me (Warden 53) and a Templar (55) were the healers with a dirge, and two rangers.  At one point we aggro'd two groups of the lvl 54^^^ epics (3 in each group) and the Templar took aggro off the entire second group because of reactive hate.  The dirge had a mob beating on him a moment later, taking one off the templar.  I stomped on my two instant heals (single on the templar, then group) and after that cast duststorm to help reduce incoming dps.  The tank was holding aggro on the other three while I was spamming heals on the templar and using group heals to keep the dirge and tank alive.  It was a blast and no one died.  Although the templar joined the Purple Bar club.  He actually fell down unconcious once and popped back up a moment later.<hr><p><font color="#ffff00">Don't think I haven't tried this. I want to like my abilities and I want to have fun with my Guardian. Coming here telling us we are wrong is just going to make you look bad.</font></p><div><font color="#ffff00">Gah.. didn't even catch that 2H weapon DPS remark. You know what would hapen to your pally if he went into a orange con fight with a 2H as tank? He's be releasing and coming back to try again. I have an imbued T6 1H club, T6 imbued 2H claymore, T6 imbued 1H hand axe and my primsatic. I swap around a lot in different situations but if I'm getting smacked around it's always my shield and 1Hander that comes out.</font></div><hr>So not true.  My lvl 35 pally tanked the Shift Boss (lvl 39^^^) and all his friends while she was in offensive stance with a two hander (Gorehorn Sword of Butchery) and only one healer (a 36 fury).  Popped group taunt as the mobs got out of social aggro range of the rest of the room.  Cast my healing ward, popped noble tone on the boss, ae spell, ae melee, and then a kick stun to the boss.  I had the aggro that whole fight and didn't die.  I do believe lvl 39 counts as orange con to a 35.  We also fought some lvl 40's too.  So think again about your 2H comments.</blockquote></span><div></div>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div><hr><font color="#ffff00">On a raid? I dont think so. Unless its a damned easy one. Most raids are designed to be skin of the teeth sort of things.</font><hr>If all the damage the offtank is taking is through intercept and protect abilities, group heals will be more than enough to keep the tank using them alive.  My warden's group heals do more than enough healing to keep an offtank like that alive.<div></div>

[EasternKing]

<P> Us using intercepts makes the healers job easier [Removed for Content]</P> <P>Here is a real simple equation,</P> <P>1 Tank getting hit for 1k damage single target for caster to heal </P> <P>2 tank getting hit and guard intercepting is 100% on the guard and somewhere betweeen 33% to 48% on the main tank so where the hell is the less damage coming from ? in that scenario every time the healers are burning more power,</P> <P> because were in effect increasing the mobs dps by 33%  to 48% </P> <P>the whole point of the intercepts are a last ditch effort to keep a MT up and give healers time to recover NOT to be used in most case's to make healers job easier </P> <P>best case scenario for guardians intercepts where they are not the MT is when a raid mob is initially pulled and u need a breather to slap some debuffs on the mob before the mob chews the MT up and 99% of the time if its not timed carefully the guard will die.</P> <P>so please less of the BS our intercepts are class defining skills and bring a valid addition to a group</P> <P>having a tank in a group atomatically means u dont need a guardian.</P> <P> the only time u need a guardian is when u dont have a tank.</P>

[Rah]

<P></P> <HR> <P> The Eastern King posts:</P> <P><BR>                             having a tank in a group atomatically means u dont need a guardian.</P> <P>                              the only time u need a guardian is when u dont have a tank.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Sad but True!!!!</P> <P>                      ~ James Hetfield</P> <P> </P> <P>Rahge</P>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>1. If I needed two healers to keep my up when two blue con ^^^ on me I'd hang my head in shame. Any fighter should. That example means nothing. Go to PoF and find some nice juicy yellows for your tank friend. Things change dramatically with color con. I can tank just about anything that is yellow con. Oragne is just asking for trouble unless your whole group is ready for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. I never experianced the new damage vs color con system below say level 55. I can't say what it's like to kill the shift boss now. I can say what it's like to kill a level 65 ^^^ with two level 65 group members as a heroic fight at level 60 and all I can say is what you describe is not the same as what I experiance. If I had offensive stance up I would die half way through the fight or faster. If I had offensive stance up and a 2 hander I would not last through the first damage blitz on the pull. Mabye all of this means Paladins are better tanks than Guardains and I have more to argue than I thought? I'll wait for you to get 60 and let us know more before I start brining that up though.</DIV>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div><div></div><div><hr><font color="#ffff00">1. If I needed two healers to keep my up when two blue con ^^^ on me I'd hang my head in shame. Any fighter should. That example means nothing. Go to PoF and find some nice juicy yellows for your tank friend. Things change dramatically with color con. I can tank just about anything that is yellow con. Oragne is just asking for trouble unless your whole group is ready for it.</font><hr>It wasn't just two triple-ups.  It was three lvl 54^^^ Epic2 mobs in the same encounter.  We were pulling two of those encounters at the same time.  Meaning it wasn't just two blue con triple dubs.  It was six of them and they were epic2's.<hr><font color="#ffff00">2. I never experianced the new damage vs color con system below say level 55. I can't say what it's like to kill the shift boss now. I can say what it's like to kill a level 65 ^^^ with two level 65 group members as a heroic fight at level 60 and all I can say is what you describe is not the same as what I experiance. If I had offensive stance up I would die half way through the fight or faster. If I had offensive stance up and a 2 hander I would not last through the first damage blitz on the pull. Mabye all of this means Paladins are better tanks than Guardains and I have more to argue than I thought? I'll wait for you to get 60 and let us know more before I start brining that up though.</font><hr>The color con is still painful even at the mid-levels.  The shift boss was smacking me around something fierce and it took all my heals, single target, my ward, my group heal, even my self heal to stay alive.  I didn't use Lay on Hands though.  Had to use that on the silly warlock on the next pull that brought the Foreman.  My zerker, lvl 27, I use offensive stance with a two hander all the time as well.  Even against yellow cons.  Can't recall fighting any orange cons lately though.  I hold aggro better in offensive stance. edit: Just remember the fight against the eyes right before the Shift Boss.  Three lvl 38^^^ eyeballs. Actually, I think one was 39^^^.  We survived that fight too.  My paladin's gear is only handcrafted armor and jewelry mostly.  The sword I got in RE. http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=143011115</div><div></div><p>Message Edited by SniperKitty on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:51 PM</span>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>1. If I needed two healers to keep my up when two blue con ^^^ on me I'd hang my head in shame. Any fighter should. That example means nothing. Go to PoF and find some nice juicy yellows for your tank friend. Things change dramatically with color con. I can tank just about anything that is yellow con. Oragne is just asking for trouble unless your whole group is ready for it.</FONT><BR> <HR> It wasn't just two triple-ups.  It was three lvl 54^^^ Epic2 mobs in the same encounter.  We were pulling two of those encounters at the same time.  Meaning it wasn't just two blue con triple dubs.  It was six of them and they were epic2's.<BR><BR> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>2. I never experianced the new damage vs color con system below say level 55. I can't say what it's like to kill the shift boss now. I can say what it's like to kill a level 65 ^^^ with two level 65 group members as a heroic fight at level 60 and all I can say is what you describe is not the same as what I experiance. If I had offensive stance up I would die half way through the fight or faster. If I had offensive stance up and a 2 hander I would not last through the first damage blitz on the pull. Mabye all of this means Paladins are better tanks than Guardains and I have more to argue than I thought? I'll wait for you to get 60 and let us know more before I start brining that up though.</FONT><BR> <HR> The color con is still painful even at the mid-levels.  The shift boss was smacking me around something fierce and it took all my heals, single target, my ward, my group heal, even my self heal to stay alive.  I didn't use Lay on Hands though.  Had to use that on the silly warlock on the next pull that brought the Foreman.  My zerker, lvl 27, I use offensive stance with a two hander all the time as well.  Even against yellow cons.  Can't recall fighting any orange cons lately though.  I hold aggro better in offensive stance.<BR><BR>edit: Just remember the fight against the eyes right before the Shift Boss.  Three lvl 38^^^ eyeballs. Actually, I think one was 39^^^.  We survived that fight too.  My paladin's gear is only handcrafted armor and jewelry mostly.  The sword I got in RE.<BR><BR>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=143011115<BR><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by SniperKitty on <SPAN class=date_text>12-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:51 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1. That stuff in clefts is easy. I have been there before.</P> <P> </P> <P>2. You had two healers, the fury and yourslef. Think a Guadian would have survided that fight? Remember, we don't have heals or wards and all the healing and your amends spell on somebody else were both giving you agro. Guardians don't talk about Paladins becasue we were convinced by all the high level ones that your heals were long casting and useless in the higher end game.</P> <P><BR></P>

[SniperKitty]

I'm pretty sure a guardian wouldn't have survived the eyes.  In fact I didn't.  I got rezzed halfway through and got healed.  Took aggro back with rescue and finished off the fight.  However, I'm sure a guardian would survive the shift boss.  Guardians take less damage.  Paladins use wards and heals to make up the difference. Guardian takes several hits for 1000 pts of damage. Paladin takes same amount of hits but takes 1600 points of damage. Paladin ward takes 300 of that, paladin heals 300 of that. (Rough numbers, not exact). It's not quite exact as that because if it was, paladins would suck.  Our two heals and ward aren't enough to keep us alive against a strong npc.  They are on somewhat long recast timers and heal/ward for approximately 300 at lvl 36.  We have a self heal that heals for near 500, but has a 5 min recast, and LOH which is 800-1000, but on a 15 min timer. <div></div>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>I'm pretty sure a guardian wouldn't have survived the eyes.  In fact I didn't.  I got rezzed halfway through and got healed.  Took aggro back with rescue and finished off the fight.  However, I'm sure a guardian would survive the shift boss.  Guardians take less damage.  Paladins use wards and heals to make up the difference.<BR><BR>Guardian takes several hits for 1000 pts of damage.<BR>Paladin takes same amount of hits but takes 1600 points of damage.<BR>Paladin ward takes 300 of that, paladin heals 300 of that. (Rough numbers, not exact).<BR><BR>It's not quite exact as that because if it was, paladins would suck.  Our two heals and ward aren't enough to keep us alive against a strong npc.  They are on somewhat long recast timers and heal/ward for approximately 300 at lvl 36.  We have a self heal that heals for near 500, but has a 5 min recast, and LOH which is 800-1000, but on a 15 min timer.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Guardians take less damage becasue we have no choice but to use a shiled and use defensive stance. Your forget thet Guardians and paladins use the exact same armor, shields with the exact same effectiveness, the exact same jewelery. How can you justify even using a fictious number where a Paladin takes 160% more damage than a Paladin? Put up your defensive stance and wear a shiled if your getting hit. They are in the game for a reason. You being a crappy tank doesn't mean paladins are crappy tanks.</P> <P>Please remember that the Developers have stated MANY times that al fighters tank euqally well. Therefore your example and agrument is flawed.</P> <p>Message Edited by Wasuna on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:28 PM</span>

[Sirrion77]

Guardians were the best by far tanks pre-LU 13 for groups and raids. So what it's other tank's turns, only fair i think, soon it's going to back to guardian's turn. Sony always done it that way. Bashing other classes won't solve the issue. Patience is key. Also in raid, only defence count, paladin's wards and heals don't bring much. Paladin has more magic defence because of the wisdom, Guardian has more Mitigation for pure melee strong hits and monk/bruiser have more avoidance for fast hitting mobs. Sirriun Guardian <div></div>

[craized warrior]

thats not the issue here, the only thing guardians were ever good at was tanking, it was the only thing we stood out at, now we still tank good, but we're the least desirable class simply because the other fighters outdo us in all other areas.

[mastersard]

<P>Guardians were the best tanks because of a buff stacking bug.  A <EM>bug</EM> that only a very few high end raid guild MT Guardians were able to exploit.  The rest of us were just good tanks, and totally unaware of the exploit.  In stead of fixing the <EM>bug</EM>, SOE scrapped the entire combat system <EM>again</EM>, and slapped a virtually untested combat system together. And it was unwanted by most of the population.  The beta testers, for the most part, <EM>begged </EM>SOE not to go live with it on the beta forums.  Massive, sweeping changes to the core functions of several classes.  And our friends who were testing the changes kept telling us it wouldn't be as bad as it seemed in beta.  That SOE would work out the kinks.</P> <P>They were wrong.  It was worse.  I found 3 of my 5 classes virtually unplayable (Guardian/Templar/Troubadore).  In my oppinion, the 3 worst nerfed classes in the game.</P> <P>SOE is <EM>lucky</EM> they have a very loyal fanbase to fall back on over 3 games: EQ, EQ2, SWG.  Star wars geeks (like me) will allways want to play SWG.  Old EQ players (like me) will still get excited when we hear the login music for EQ/EQ2.  But what happens when the nex hard core, well built, customer & player friendly game comes out?  I quit for 6 weeks after LU13.</P> <P>I bet the door won't hit me where the Good Lord split me.</P>

[TunaBoo]

I stopped reading this thread after a healer started telling us to split damage between a bunch of tanks to heal better.<div></div>

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:I stopped reading this thread after a healer started telling us to split damage between a bunch of tanks to heal better.<div></div><hr></blockquote> Hahah.  You're so ignorant Tunamoron.  As a warden, I can keep two tanks alive.  Very easily.  My regens continue working even after the spell has been cast.  Funny how that works.  And my main regen, has a recast of 6s, yet it lasts 12s.  Funny, what to do with that other 6s that I could cast that spell.  Oh I know!! How about I cast it on the offtank guardian that's using intercept and other damage absorbing abilities on the maintank. Funny how that works.  With one spell I can increase the group survivability in tough situations by having a second tank intecept some of the damage for the main tank.  Amazing.  Isn't it?</span><div></div>

[Nibbl]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Great idea!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They will probably redo the spell lines below level 20 as well, class defining spells from level 1.... YEA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>I stopped reading this thread after a healer started telling us to split damage between a bunch of tanks to heal better.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The ignorant Kitty... lol</P> <P>Her posts belong in the litter box with the rest of the crap.</P>

[Rendoir]

haha, with you there. Just reading back through a few of Snipers posts, trying to work out whether he is a total [Removed for Content] or just was having a bad day, seems tho he is indeed a total [Removed for Content] with nothing but playground insults and disregard for peoples experience/feelings. Ah well, will continue the read and the laugh hehe

[TunaBoo]

The ignorant kitty obviously doesn't understand raids... and in XP groups if you need 3 tanks to split the damage between you have crappy tanks and healers.<div></div>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffff00">TunaBoo wrote:</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">The ignorant kitty obviously doesn't understand raids... and in XP groups if you need 3 tanks to split the damage between you have crappy tanks and healers.</font><div></div><hr>I understand raids just fine and I never said I needed thre tanks to split the damage.  I said it made it easier for me to heal.  Freeing up time for me to nuke and dot the mobs some.  Talk about ignorance... you should look into the mirror fishbreath.</blockquote></span><div></div>

[Ladicav]

<DIV>Telling tuna to look in the mirror shows how much of an ignorant prat you really are. Tuna is a guildleader, of *gasp* a fairly successful high end raiding guild. I think he knows just fine what is involved in raiding, unlike you who has trouble tying thier own shoelaces.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thank you drive through.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Lol thanks whoever you are ;p<div></div>

[craized warrior]

fishbreath? have you passed puberty yet?

[a6eaq]

<P>Sniper realy is calling TunaBoo "Tunamoron." a mature attempt at getting your point across?  Oh wait a minute, you said you would whatever it takes to keep Guardians down didn't you?</P> <P>BTW he is a guildleader in a successful raiding guild, and you are who again...</P>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> a6eaq wrote:<BR> <P>Sniper realy is calling TunaBoo "Tunamoron." a mature attempt at getting your point across?  Oh wait a minute, you said you would whatever it takes to keep Guardians down didn't you?</P> <P>BTW he is a guildleader in a successful raiding guild, and you are who again...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I will answer, and to use one of Tunabash's quotes, Sniperkitty is dumber than bricks.</DIV>

[Salgo]

<P>Fishbreath? Hmmm now I truly am wondering about your age and not maturity so much as it might be appropro. Me thinks you want the WoW game where I hear "act your age and not your shoe size" is actually the same thing. </P> <P>On a good note, I will no longer take anything you say seriously as I refuse to debate with a child. </P>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:Wow, such ignorance about how a healer works.  Any healer worth their salt will be able to split heals effectively and keep two or more people alive.  I know for a fact as a warden and a fury and a defiler that I can keep multiple people alive and prefer it over trying to keep up with one tank taking huge amounts of damage.  If the damage is split between several people, I can use my very power efficient GROUP HEALS.  <--- See that?  Healers have spells that HEAL THE ENTIRE GROUP.  They're also pretty darn power efficient if several people are taking damage. 500 incoming dps on one person is not always easy to heal. 300 incoming dps on two people is easier. 200 incoming dps on three or more people is even easier.  I could keep a group alive for hours without end at that rate.  Power regen + manastone and I would never run out.  But trying to keep a single target alive against a massive amount of incoming damage as a single healer is not always that efficient.  Especially as a warden with regens.  The recast timer on a druid's regen spell is half the duration.  For the mentally challenged, that means I can keep a healing spell on two people, that heals for @125 hps.  On top of that I can throw on a group regen that heals for another @75-100 hps. Just by those rough numbers, it clearly shows that healing multiple people at the same time is easier and more efficient than trying to keep up with heals on one tank.  I play several types of tanks as well.  Monk, paladin, and berzerker.  Each of those have some defensive abilities I can use to help the MT, but no where near the amount that a guardian can provide.  As a berzerker, I would love to have a guardian along for their defensive abilities so I could turn on all the offensive stuff I have and tank better.  Finally, button mashing combat arts as soon as they refresh is not the best way to get dps as a tank.  My pally does better dps by using a 2H sword and using only a few combat arts that stun, debuff, or knockdown. <hr></blockquote>Just when I thought people playing EQ2 couldnt get anymore stupid.... Hence why I only group with healers I personally know...cause there is always the chance I could end up with you or god forbid someone that is actually stupid enough to think like you. You really need to go back to sucking your mama's $%^s </span><div></div>

[Vandileir]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>SniperKitty wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>I understand raids just fine and I never said I needed thre tanks to split the damage.  I said it made it easier for me to heal.  Freeing up time for me to nuke and dot the mobs some.  Talk about ignorance... you should look into the mirror fishbreath.<BR></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You know there are classes that specialize in that kind of thing right? I think there called mages in general. I dont think they have heals, and I'm pretty sure they do more damage over time than wardens. I think they let them into raids sometimes. I could be wrong.</DIV>

[Krooner]

<P>Hmmm Let me see.  2 tanks yeah thats a good thing in a raid.</P> <P>2 tanks at half health + a nasty AOE...= What again.  ohh Yeah  RAID WIPE.</P> <P> </P>

[mastersard]

It'd be nice if damage <EM>could</EM> be spread over several tanks, tho, and assign one healer per tank in a "tank unit."  But that'd require a huge overhaul of the raid system and mobs.