Hate generation discussion

[MoonglumHMV]

<DIV>I had originally written this up as a reply to the "Guardians Suck?" post, but I felt that a new thread might be better for it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>2.  WIth speaking with our ranger in the guild, he feels that monks are better tanks based on this factor, when the monk single mob taunts, the ranger CANNOT break the aggro the monk has on that single target.  With respect to guardians, we NEVER have that kind of aggro control on a monster.  Now if you think that the monk taunt ability is over powered, or if you think the guardian group taunts need an upgrade, that is for the developers to decide.  However, this is the only advantage I see Monks having over guardians, as well as one utility spell, group FD.  However, to counter this, we guardians have guardian sphere which is a pretty dang good butt saving spell IMO.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well, just because I love to help where I can, and because I love my EQ2 Item Database <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  As far as taunts themselves go, it looks like everything is equal (all master 1 levels for comparison)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian level 59 - Confront - 8 sec recast 1044-1276 hate</DIV> <DIV>Monk level 59 - Infuriating Tranquility - 8 sec recase 1044-1276 hate</DIV> <DIV>Guardian level 50 - Protect - 20 sec recast 637-778 hate</DIV> <DIV>Monk level 50 Agitate Spirit - 20 sec recast 637-778 hate</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By looking at that alone, taunts themselves are equal, so the hate generated by a Monk on a single target that 'locks down' a single MOB has to be from their stance (Storm Stance - Master 1 - 50% chance per hit increase hate 326) or their CA's/DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians have 2 attacks that directly generate hate, one single target (Unforgiving Strike - Master 1 - 10 sec recast 669-818 hate) and one group AOE (Goading Assault - Master 1 - 30 sec recast 852 hate).  Guardian stance (Inflaming Defense - Master 1 - Roots caster - 50% chance per hit taken increase hate 444) is already being discussed in other threads due to it's MANY shortcomings (Root, wards prevent procs, raising your avoidance prevents procs, slowing MOB attack speed slows procs, etc...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Storm stance:  With maxed haste, the speed cap is .8 sec, so with 2 weps at 1.6 speed Monks hit 2 times every .8 seconds...so assuming normal 50% chances (no streaks) Monks could increase their hate by 3260 every 8 sec just sitting there auto attacking assuming no misses, if you say 75% hit rate, then that is 2445 every 8 sec.  No DPS hate numbers included.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Inflaming Defense:  I don't know if MOB's have the same speed cap as we do, so to ease in the number I'll just assume 1 sec attack speed.  If we say 1 sec attacks and 40% avoidance, that is 8 attacks in that same 8 sec, 3 of which will miss, so 5 attacks total at 444 hate per is 2220 hate over that same 8 sec.  Fairly close between the 2 stances IMHO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From a straight numbers standpoint, it SEEMS like hate generation should be fairly even, streaks aside on both parts (Monk may hit/miss in a streak, guardian might avoid more/less in a streak).  Taunts are exactly even, hate proc stances are fairly even, so the one unknown factor has to be the key to it...DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the single target scenario alone, one has to conclude that hate generated by the DPS brawlers can put out > extra hate generated by the 2 guardian attacks that add hate + guardian DPS.  And has to be much greater the way ppl talk about Monks locking down a single MOB the way they do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If SOE's vision of tanking is solo MOB Monks > all and group MOBs Guardians > all, can an adjustment be made (increase Guardian DPS for example) to make the gap closer but still hold true to SOEs vision?  Also needs to be looked at from the other side as well, is the gap in Guardian tanking vs group > Monk tanking vs group and is that gap as large as the solo MOB?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Possible solutions:</DIV> <DIV>Increase Guardian DPS?</DIV> <DIV>Decrease Monk DPS?</DIV> <DIV>If the balance is lopsided both ways (solo for Monks group for Guards) could making the taunts not equal be a solution, for example make the Monk group taunt > Guardian group taunt to help Monks vs groups and also make Guardian solo taunt > Monk solo taunt to help Guardians vs single MOB?</DIV> <DIV>Give the Monk another AOE attack or add a hate generation to the monk AOE attack and add a hate generation to one or two other guardian attack?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just thoughts from someone bored at work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV></DIV>

[Wasuna]

<P>Your monk Lord Gaige is going to flay you alive for suggesting that monk DPS could posibly be lowered.</P> <P>Fighters as they are now are not equal. Most brawlers prefer to not address that. Thank you for your comments here.</P>

[Tro]

<DIV>ahh yea I think he's gonna have a field day with this one lol....</DIV>

[ToonAr]

<DIV>Interesting post, though I certainly wouldn't like to see Monks DPS nerfed. Having yet another fighter class downgraded wouldn't really benefit anyone IMO. And to be fair, Gaige himself has even said that guardians could use some more DPS and I would agree. Without revamping or rebalancing the taunt / agro mechanic all over again, giving guardians a DPS boost seems the easiest way to tip the scales towards being 'balanced', but not so much so it would give Brawlers or Zerkers cause for concern.</DIV>

[MoonglumHMV]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ToonArmy wrote:<BR> <DIV>Interesting post, though I certainly wouldn't like to see Monks DPS nerfed. Having yet another fighter class downgraded wouldn't really benefit anyone IMO. And to be fair, Gaige himself has even said that guardians could use some more DPS and I would agree. Without revamping or rebalancing the taunt / agro mechanic all over again, giving guardians a DPS boost seems the easiest way to tip the scales towards being 'balanced', but not so much so it would give Brawlers or Zerkers cause for concern.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm not saying I would LIKE to see Monks DPS nerfed either? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But I do want to see things balanced as much as possible.</P> <P>I think one of the main issues now is that SOE has things lined up in a way that they want as far as aggro/tanking goes.  You can kind of see that they way they have things like CA's structured.  It's the difference of the 'on paper' game vs the 'in game' game.  Like my origianal post stated, number wise (at least the ones we can see) things SHOULD be fairly even.  The fact that so many ppl are saying they don't play out that way in game should eventually indicate to SOE that some tweaking is needed.</P> <P>I also think that it is impossible for SOE to balance things across all 3 setups (solo vs group vs raid)...there are just way to many factors that cross over between them.</P> <P>edit for spelling and left out word.</P><p>Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:39 PM</span>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoonglumHMV wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I also think that it is for SOE to balance things across all 3 setups (solo vs group vs raid)...there are just way to many factors that cross over between them.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with that. To bad SOE decided to balance the game for raiding. I have been on 1 raid in the last 4 weeks and I am level 60. I am also not the MT for my guild. I post here so much about this topic because I do play the game and do not agree with SOE's approach.<BR>

[Will.]

<span><blockquote><hr>MoonglumHMV wrote:<div>I had originally written this up as a reply to the "Guardians Suck?" post, but I felt that a new thread might be better for it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> <div>2.  WIth speaking with our ranger in the guild, he feels that monks are better tanks based on this factor, when the monk single mob taunts, the ranger CANNOT break the aggro the monk has on that single target.  With respect to guardians, we NEVER have that kind of aggro control on a monster.  Now if you think that the monk taunt ability is over powered, or if you think the guardian group taunts need an upgrade, that is for the developers to decide.  However, this is the only advantage I see Monks having over guardians, as well as one utility spell, group FD.  However, to counter this, we guardians have guardian sphere which is a pretty dang good butt saving spell IMO.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Well, just because I love to help where I can, and because I love my EQ2 Item Database <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  As far as taunts themselves go, it looks like everything is equal (all master 1 levels for comparison)</div> <div> </div> <div>Guardian level 59 - Confront - 8 sec recast 1044-1276 hate</div> <div>Monk level 59 - Infuriating Tranquility - 8 sec recase 1044-1276 hate</div> <div>Guardian level 50 - Protect - 20 sec recast 637-778 hate</div> <div>Monk level 50 Agitate Spirit - 20 sec recast 637-778 hate</div> <div> </div> <div>By looking at that alone, taunts themselves are equal, so the hate generated by a Monk on a single target that 'locks down' a single MOB has to be from their stance (Storm Stance - Master 1 - 50% chance per hit increase hate 326) or their CA's/DPS.</div> <div> </div> <div>Guardians have 2 attacks that directly generate hate, one single target (Unforgiving Strike - Master 1 - 10 sec recast 669-818 hate) and one group AOE (Goading Assault - Master 1 - 30 sec recast 852 hate).  Guardian stance (Inflaming Defense - Master 1 - Roots caster - 50% chance per hit taken increase hate 444) is already being discussed in other threads due to it's MANY shortcomings (Root, wards prevent procs, raising your avoidance prevents procs, slowing MOB attack speed slows procs, etc...)</div> <div> </div> <div>Storm stance:  With maxed haste, the speed cap is .8 sec, so with 2 weps at 1.6 speed Monks hit 2 times every .8 seconds...so assuming normal 50% chances (no streaks) Monks could increase their hate by 3260 every 8 sec just sitting there auto attacking assuming no misses, if you say 75% hit rate, then that is 2445 every 8 sec.  No DPS hate numbers included.</div> <div> </div> <div>Inflaming Defense:  I don't know if MOB's have the same speed cap as we do, so to ease in the number I'll just assume 1 sec attack speed.  If we say 1 sec attacks and 40% avoidance, that is 8 attacks in that same 8 sec, 3 of which will miss, so 5 attacks total at 444 hate per is 2220 hate over that same 8 sec.  Fairly close between the 2 stances IMHO. </div></div></blockquote> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Storm stance is only generating aggro with the one particular mob you're attacking while ID generates aggro with every mob attacking you. So casters are free to AOE and unattended mobs in the group are less likely to start hating the healer. In addition, ID is passive so adds just need to be attracted to the tank and can then be ignored--till it's their turn to die! Last, these assume even con mobs. Higher con mobs hit more often and get hit less often shifting things more in favor of ID. And a guard can use his offensive stance to increase the amount of hits he takes and the damage he does making him even more effective at hate generation. </font></div> </div> <blockquote> <div> <div> </div> <div>From a straight numbers standpoint, it SEEMS like hate generation should be fairly even, streaks aside on both parts (Monk may hit/miss in a streak, guardian might avoid more/less in a streak).  Taunts are exactly even, hate proc stances are fairly even, so the one unknown factor has to be the key to it...DPS.</div> <div> </div> <div>In the single target scenario alone, one has to conclude that hate generated by the DPS brawlers can put out > extra hate generated by the 2 guardian attacks that add hate + guardian DPS.  And has to be much greater the way ppl talk about Monks locking down a single MOB the way they do. </div></div> </blockquote> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Yup, a monk's 20-odd damaging CAs make them better at generating hate with even con and lower solo mobs.</font> </div> </div> <blockquote> <div> <div> </div> <div>If SOE's vision of tanking is solo MOB Monks > all and group MOBs Guardians > all, can an adjustment be made (increase Guardian DPS for example) to make the gap closer but still hold true to SOEs vision?  Also needs to be looked at from the other side as well, is the gap in Guardian tanking vs group > Monk tanking vs group and is that gap as large as the solo MOB?</div> <div> </div> <div>Possible solutions:</div> <div>Increase Guardian DPS? </div></div> </blockquote> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Yup, killing speed is what makes a group "good." All of a guardians defensive abilites are less important in an xp group than the better damage every other fighter class can do. Basically faster killing means less power spent each time means less downtime between pulls means more xp. It also means even if things go bad most mobs can be killed before anyone dies. Most fights aren't so close that extra defense is meaningful. This is a fundamental problem with the combat system. All you have to do is survive the fight. As long as you have 1 health at the end nothing else matters. Out of combat health regen + healing spells mean power regen is the limiting factor so it's better to sacrifice defense so you can end an encounter with 1% health and 50% power vs. 50% health and 1% power. Fixes? Ha! I'm not touching that one with a ten-foot pole. (Provisioners would lynch me!) </font></div> </div> <blockquote> <div> <div> </div> <div>Decrease Monk DPS?</div> <div>If the balance is lopsided both ways (solo for Monks group for Guards) could making the taunts not equal be a solution, for example make the Monk group taunt > Guardian group taunt to help Monks vs groups and also make Guardian solo taunt > Monk solo taunt to help Guardians vs single MOB?</div> <div>Give the Monk another AOE attack or add a hate generation to the monk AOE attack and add a hate generation to one or two other guardian attack?</div> <div> </div> <div>Just thoughts from someone bored at work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div></div> <hr></blockquote> <font color="#ffff00">-Will</font></span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wasuna wrote:<BR> <P>Your monk Lord Gaige is going to flay you alive for suggesting that monk DPS could posibly be lowered.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nah.</P> <P>If that is what it takes, that is what it takes.  I'd prefer to see the hate lowered on storm stance first though; if we get to that part and those types of changes are deemed necessary.<BR></P>

[Macross_JR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Will. wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>MoonglumHMV wrote:<div>I had originally written this up as a reply to the "Guardians Suck?" post, but I felt that a new thread might be better for it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> <div>2.  WIth speaking with our ranger in the guild, he feels that monks are better tanks based on this factor, when the monk single mob taunts, the ranger CANNOT break the aggro the monk has on that single target.  With respect to guardians, we NEVER have that kind of aggro control on a monster.  Now if you think that the monk taunt ability is over powered, or if you think the guardian group taunts need an upgrade, that is for the developers to decide.  However, this is the only advantage I see Monks having over guardians, as well as one utility spell, group FD.  However, to counter this, we guardians have guardian sphere which is a pretty dang good butt saving spell IMO.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Well, just because I love to help where I can, and because I love my EQ2 Item Database <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  As far as taunts themselves go, it looks like everything is equal (all master 1 levels for comparison)</div> <div> </div> <div>Guardian level 59 - Confront - 8 sec recast 1044-1276 hate</div> <div>Monk level 59 - Infuriating Tranquility - 8 sec recase 1044-1276 hate</div> <div>Guardian level 50 - Protect - 20 sec recast 637-778 hate</div> <div>Monk level 50 Agitate Spirit - 20 sec recast 637-778 hate</div> <div> </div> <div>By looking at that alone, taunts themselves are equal, so the hate generated by a Monk on a single target that 'locks down' a single MOB has to be from their stance (Storm Stance - Master 1 - 50% chance per hit increase hate 326) or their CA's/DPS.</div> <div> </div> <div>Guardians have 2 attacks that directly generate hate, one single target (Unforgiving Strike - Master 1 - 10 sec recast 669-818 hate) and one group AOE (Goading Assault - Master 1 - 30 sec recast 852 hate).  Guardian stance (Inflaming Defense - Master 1 - Roots caster - 50% chance per hit taken increase hate 444) is already being discussed in other threads due to it's MANY shortcomings (Root, wards prevent procs, raising your avoidance prevents procs, slowing MOB attack speed slows procs, etc...)</div> <div> </div> <div>Storm stance:  With maxed haste, the speed cap is .8 sec, so with 2 weps at 1.6 speed Monks hit 2 times every .8 seconds...so assuming normal 50% chances (no streaks) Monks could increase their hate by 3260 every 8 sec just sitting there auto attacking assuming no misses, if you say 75% hit rate, then that is 2445 every 8 sec.  No DPS hate numbers included.</div> <div> </div> <div>Inflaming Defense:  I don't know if MOB's have the same speed cap as we do, so to ease in the number I'll just assume 1 sec attack speed.  If we say 1 sec attacks and 40% avoidance, that is 8 attacks in that same 8 sec, 3 of which will miss, so 5 attacks total at 444 hate per is 2220 hate over that same 8 sec.  Fairly close between the 2 stances IMHO. </div></div></blockquote> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Storm stance is only generating aggro with the one particular mob you're attacking while ID generates aggro with every mob attacking you. So casters are free to AOE and unattended mobs in the group are less likely to start hating the healer. <font color="#66ff00">Umm, how about NO.  Even with ID up casters are not free to AOE unless they want to die.  The hate generated by ID is not enough to compensate for damage done by AOE's.  You leave a mob unattended attacking you and priests will start to die.</font> In addition, ID is passive so adds just need to be attracted to the tank and can then be ignored--till it's their turn to die! <font color="#66ff00">See above comment.</font> Last, these assume even con mobs. Higher con mobs hit more often and get hit less often shifting things more in favor of ID. And a guard can use his offensive stance to increase the amount of hits he takes and the damage he does making him even more effective at hate generation. <font color="#66ff00">Did you just say for us to use our offensive stance to tank, are you kidding me.  Lets see here, we get hit more, take more damage, healers have to heal more, you see the pattern here.  It could go as far as we die cause of us getting hit too much and healer can't keep up.</font> </font></div> </div> <blockquote> <div> <div> </div> <div>From a straight numbers standpoint, it SEEMS like hate generation should be fairly even, streaks aside on both parts (Monk may hit/miss in a streak, guardian might avoid more/less in a streak).  Taunts are exactly even, hate proc stances are fairly even, so the one unknown factor has to be the key to it...DPS.</div> <div> </div> <div>In the single target scenario alone, one has to conclude that hate generated by the DPS brawlers can put out > extra hate generated by the 2 guardian attacks that add hate + guardian DPS.  And has to be much greater the way ppl talk about Monks locking down a single MOB the way they do. </div></div> </blockquote> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Yup, a monk's 20-odd damaging CAs make them better at generating hate with even con and lower solo mobs.</font> </div> </div> <blockquote> <div> <div> </div> <div>If SOE's vision of tanking is solo MOB Monks > all and group MOBs Guardians > all, can an adjustment be made (increase Guardian DPS for example) to make the gap closer but still hold true to SOEs vision?  Also needs to be looked at from the other side as well, is the gap in Guardian tanking vs group > Monk tanking vs group and is that gap as large as the solo MOB?</div> <div> </div> <div>Possible solutions:</div> <div>Increase Guardian DPS? </div></div> </blockquote> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Yup, killing speed is what makes a group "good." All of a guardians defensive abilites are less important in an xp group than the better damage every other fighter class can do. Basically faster killing means less power spent each time means less downtime between pulls means more xp. It also means even if things go bad most mobs can be killed before anyone dies. Most fights aren't so close that extra defense is meaningful. This is a fundamental problem with the combat system. All you have to do is survive the fight. As long as you have 1 health at the end nothing else matters. Out of combat health regen + healing spells mean power regen is the limiting factor so it's better to sacrifice defense so you can end an encounter with 1% health and 50% power vs. 50% health and 1% power. Fixes? Ha! I'm not touching that one with a ten-foot pole. (Provisioners would lynch me!) </font></div> </div> <blockquote> <div> <div> </div> <div>Decrease Monk DPS?</div> <div>If the balance is lopsided both ways (solo for Monks group for Guards) could making the taunts not equal be a solution, for example make the Monk group taunt > Guardian group taunt to help Monks vs groups and also make Guardian solo taunt > Monk solo taunt to help Guardians vs single MOB?</div> <div>Give the Monk another AOE attack or add a hate generation to the monk AOE attack and add a hate generation to one or two other guardian attack?</div> <div> </div> <div>Just thoughts from someone bored at work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div></div> <hr></blockquote> <font color="#ffff00">-Will</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[MoonglumHMV]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wasuna wrote:<BR> <P>Your monk Lord Gaige is going to flay you alive for suggesting that monk DPS could posibly be lowered.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nah.</P> <P>If that is what it takes, that is what it takes.  I'd prefer to see the hate lowered on storm stance first though; if we get to that part and those types of changes are deemed necessary.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/phew I spent all night tossing and turning with visions of a Half Elf flaying my Ogre behind <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<P>Welp, I am kind of disappointed.  I posted my aggro issues in a different forum (spells, combat abilitys) because I wanted to discuss this objectively.  I kind of wish quoting me would stay out of this forum until the doom and gloom squad leaves this forum and we can talk about things objectively.  Notice how I was quoted and almost certainly this generated a "I hate gaige" reply and god knows what else may come after. </P> <P>Please, if you want to talk about combat issues, there is no reason to post here.  The guard forum hasn't been a place to seriously post in for quite a while.</P> <P>I just come here when I want a good cry, like when I put in my "terms of endearment" video.</P> <P>/grabs a keenex</P> <P>edit* I did post a couple suggestions in this forum, but I didn't think someone would actually take them seriously and quote them in an OP heh, I did post an aggro control post in the spells, combat arts section but hopefully that wont degenerate into a flame post.  If you look the post is pretty pleasant and people may put up replies confirming what I have observed.  I just want to make known that I believe in tanking equity, because that is the game's vision and that is the way it is. </P> <p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

[Will.]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Macross_JR wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Will. wrote:<span> <div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Storm stance is only generating aggro with the one particular mob you're attacking while ID generates aggro with every mob attacking you. So casters are free to AOE and unattended mobs in the group are less likely to start hating the healer. <font color="#66ff00">Umm, how about NO.  Even with ID up casters are not free to AOE unless they want to die.  The hate generated by ID is not enough to compensate for damage done by AOE's.  You leave a mob unattended attacking you and priests will start to die. <font color="#ffffff">Ok, "free" was a bad choice of word. I assumed people would understand that it meant "free within the reasonable confines of post LU13 aggro management." But see below comments. </font> </font>In addition, ID is passive so adds just need to be attracted to the tank and can then be ignored--till it's their turn to die! <font color="#66ff00">See above comment. <font color="#ffffff">Have you ever tried this? I have. It works just fine. Casters don't get aggro, healers don't get aggro, first encounter dies, adds die. It's pretty simple actually. A lot simpler than if you don't have HtL. I think you seriously underestimate the amount of hate HtL can generate. It's on par with using your single taunt <i>twice </i>on <i>every </i>mob attacking you.</font> </font> Last, these assume even con mobs. Higher con mobs hit more often and get hit less often shifting things more in favor of ID. And a guard can use his offensive stance to increase the amount of hits he takes and the damage he does making him even more effective at hate generation. <font color="#66ff00">Did you just say for us to use our offensive stance to tank, are you kidding me.  Lets see here, we get hit more, take more damage, healers have to heal more, you see the pattern here.  It could go as far as we die cause of us getting hit too much and healer can't keep up.</font> </font></div> </div> <font color="#ffffff">If you're fighting stuff that hurts you that badly then by all means switch to your defensive stance (or use a few of your defensive buffs--heck, do both!), but you might want to reconsider your choice of targets instead. The xp difference between oranges and yellows isn't worth the extra time and effort it takes to kill them. So switch back to your offensive stance and go wipe out hoards of yellows. /thumbsup Edit: By the way, fighting overcons makes HtL work even better for just the reason you've stated--you get hit more often. If you want to fight oranges, use your defensive stance since you'll be getting hit plenty to make HtL effective. Against undercons use your offensive stance so they have a reasonable chance to hit you. It's a situational thing: try to balance having HtL proc with getting out of encounter alive. Using no stance works best in some situations. I'm just trying to help people understand the factors involved so they can make their own decisions about what works best when they play. There are so many variables to consider that each player has to decide for themselves how to play the game encounter to encounter. There is no single best way to hold aggro. Hopefully these sorts of discussions will help people make informed decisions about how to play their guard. Thanks! </font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>-Will</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Will. on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:58 AM</span>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<BR> <P>Welp, I am kind of disappointed.  I posted my aggro issues in a different forum (spells, combat abilitys) because I wanted to discuss this objectively.  I kind of wish my quotes would stay out of this forum until the doom and gloom squad leaves this forum and we can talk about things objectively.  Notice how I was quoted and almost certainly this generated a "I hate gaige" reply and god knows what else may come after. </P> <P>Please, if you want to talk about combat issues, there is no reason to post here.  The guard forum hasn't been a place to seriously post in for quite a while.</P> <P>I just come here when I want a good cry, like when I put in my "terms of endearment" video.</P> <P>/grabs a keenex</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If you want to talk about Guardian stuff in other forums then go ahead. If you can get us fixed I'll be more than happy to thank you at that time. Your attitude seems to imply that none of us here ever tried to get Guardians fixed. I would like to remind you that the thread that the Moderators sticked about ideas to help the Guardian was started in 10/10/05 and was just removed from the stickie list. All that ability did was get us a AOE root that breaks all the time and a heavy snare on a spell that shouldn't have a root to begin with.<BR></P>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoonglumHMV wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Storm stance:  With maxed haste, the speed cap is .8 sec, so with 2 weps at 1.6 speed Monks hit 2 times every .8 seconds...so assuming normal 50% chances (no streaks) Monks could increase their hate by 3260 every 8 sec just sitting there auto attacking assuming no misses, if you say 75% hit rate, then that is 2445 every 8 sec.  No DPS hate numbers included.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Actual proc rates on weapons depend on a ratio of the delay of the weapon and the displayed chance to proc. The actual chance to proc is:<BR> <BR>(Weapon Delay / 3.0 Delay ) * Proc Percentage.<BR> <BR>You can think of every procing weapon has having its proc percent chance to trigger every 3 seconds. That way, a longsword and a dagger will proc the same amount over time, even though a dagger may swing faster and yield a smaller proc chance per hit. <P>===========================<BR>Jared Sweatt<BR>EverQuest II Items Designer<BR></P> <P></P> <P></P> <HR> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=30217&query.id=0#M30217" target=_blank>link</A></P> <P>This issue was <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=8732#M8732" target=_blank>discussed</A> for quarrel which is the bruiser skill that compares to monks storm stance. And was basically concluded only to proc from main hand at the same proc rate as weapons (meaning the formula presented above).</P> <P>We would need to see some actual parses that would show ID proc rate to be able to compare, or a DEV posting if ID is based on a similiar formula.</P><p>Message Edited by Dananeb on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wasuna wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>If you want to talk about Guardian stuff in other forums then go ahead. If you can get us fixed I'll be more than happy to thank you at that time. Your attitude seems to imply that none of us here ever tried to get Guardians fixed. I would like to remind you that the thread that the Moderators sticked about ideas to help the Guardian was started in 10/10/05 and was just removed from the stickie list. All that ability did was get us a AOE root that breaks all the time and a heavy snare on a spell that shouldn't have a root to begin with.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I am not trying to talk about "guadian stuff" when I post about aggro control because that seems to polarize people into a "Guardians suck, I hate gaige" type of threads.  I posted in the spells, combat abilities forum some of my experience in aggro issues, and I encourage other guardians that want to talk about these issues to not, polarize these topics as such.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't imply that none of you have tried to get guardians "fixed" as you put it, but I do accuse the guardian forum at least a good part of people that post here as guilty of using extremely poor tact.  Coupled with the attitudes of some guardians that post here that have to blame a player of all things, as being the central reason that we have been "broke" as you put it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I replied here because I felt a bit frustrated that I posted in another thread, and did not want singled out as starting a flame thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This forum is for jokes and exaggeration as far as I'm concerned.  I post here to be silly, not to get anything done or changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, lets get back to our regularly scheduled "I hate player x, dear jesus why have they forsaken us, I'm quitting going to wow" programming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Wasuna, your signature is a perfect example of "rubbing the dev's noses in it" so they will take great glee in ignoring you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <SPAN class=date_text>12-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:12 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>Since this thread is abotu agro control I think the effect of assauge needs to be increase 30% at master 1 seems to be a bit low to me. Genrally in groups there is really 1 class that likes to shine above others as the agro magnet. I think increasing assauge to 50% threat reduction at master 1 should be fitting. </P> <P>O and monks and bruisers having to much agro genration will probably change after LU18 depending if the applied proc nerf effects our hate proc line on secondary wpns effectivly reducing hate procs for brawlers by 50%. Then all guards will have to point fingers at paladins again for hate genration.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

[DmZB]

<P></P> <HR> Macross_JR wrote: <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Did you just say for us to use our offensive stance to tank, are you kidding me.  Lets see here, we get hit more, take more damage, healers have to heal more, you see the pattern here.  It could go as far as we die cause of us getting hit too much and healer can't keep up.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Actually, using Offensive stance is better for holding aggro in a lot of situations provided you have enough heal.  I use offensive stance about 85-90% of the time, because i hold hold aggro better with it. MUCH better.  And I use Htl only when it fits the situation, when it is needed and convenient, not as a crutch or a be all end all spell to aggro management.  Probably only 2-5% of the time will i use Htl.  Althogh, if i did use it more, being in offensive stance would make Htl work that much better because i am getting hit more.  I tend to hold aggro well anyways, and get repeat requests to tank, and most times they are single heal groups.  I would still like a true aoe taunt/hate spell (ala pre LU13 battle cry/commanding presence) because multiple large groups are virtually impossible to manage (for any class).</P>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <P>I agree w DMzbat most xping areas i can do fine in offesnsive stance IF i see i may have trouble it takes 1 sec to switch stances now. The negatives in def stances hurt alot. In fact in poets w a wizard i genrally have to tank in off stance or i lose agro alot. even in off stance he can draw agro at the end if he goes all out. Thank goodness concussion is coming in lu18. Now to fix those swashies =p.</P> <P>Since this thread is abotu agro control I think the effect of assauge needs to be increase 30% at master 1 seems to be a bit low to me. Genrally in groups there is really 1 class that likes to shine above others as the agro magnet. I think increasing assauge to 50% threat reduction at master 1 should be fitting. </P> <P>O and monks and bruisers having to much agro genration will probably change after LU18 depending if the applied proc nerf effects our hate proc line on secondary wpns effectivly reducing hate procs for brawlers by 50%. Then all guards will have to point fingers at paladins again for hate genration.</P></DIV>

[DmZB]

Yes, excellent point i failed to mention.  My points are valid unless there is a brawler (morso bruisers then monks) in the group.  I typically will lose aggro to a bruiser in almost every encounter, even if they are much lower level then me.  I tend to lose it less to monks, although this could be because of different reasons.  The monks i group with usually are not interested in tanking, and maybe not going 100% (or even 75%). <DIV>But please do not take this as a brawler flame, I want everyone to have as many tools as possible, for the group win.</DIV><p>Message Edited by DmZBaT on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:39 PM</span>

[Chris]

<P>About hate generation :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>I think hate generation by damage better than traut and alike, if you can hit the mod with high damage first i seem to hold argo for long. if i shoot a arrow and hit for good damage and uesd my high damage hit next (blust, and a like ) than tuarts i can hold agro for a about a min to min and 1/2 most of the time.</P> <P>But if shoot a arrow and hit good damage and than uesd taunts next  lost argo with in 30 sec with zerber and bruiser.</P> <P>with DM i do uesd it most of the time but it a bit long to get argo with it and loss argo faster.</P> <P>so what does make better agor damage or hate spell ???</P> <P>thanx for some one for sayign that sony build the eq2 chara around raids i can see the light in the dark tunnel. Guardian is raid tank and fail that what we are with argo crontal. i not been in a raid in 5 week or more and did MT besucses i cannot keep agro:smileymad:</P> <P>i do not like MD it root you and if you dodge is high it not working . </P> <P>Av in def % 53.2 agi is 175</P> <P>AV in ofi % 39.4 </P> <P>Tigurius 53 guardian losss hope fast</P>

[Landiin]

Toss the 1h and shield and go DW you'll hold agro tons better. Yes, you will still be OOP but agro will be a bit better. With healers being around 85 to 90% power after every fight I went DW and I did notice better agro controle and the healer didn't have any less power healing me then he did before.. Note this is only in grind/farm groups.<div></div>