Guardians Suck?

[Tuch]

<DIV>I just started playing last week. I've always loved going toe-to-toe with mobs and soaking up the damage in all MMO's I've played. Hit 20 last night and chose Guardian as an RP decision (Honor and Protection over Instinct and Rage), thinking that both classes would be equally capable. But coming to the boards today has made me feel like I made the wrong decision. Is it really that bad being a Guardian or are all the posts a little over-amplified at the current point in time? Should I reroll while I'm only 20 and go Zerker or is Guardian going to get fixed/be a viable class. From what I've read, it seems that as a Guardian it's going to be very difficult for me to get into groups (especially if another fighter is present) and very difficult to solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guard - Group - Solo = what the hell is there to do</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there are any Guardians that can shed some happy light on the sea of depressing posts in this forum, please do. When I go to the zerker forum I see several posts about people who are happy with their class. In this forum, however, it seems everyone hates their class.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tuchik on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:53 AM</span>

[Aven Elonis]

<DIV>On a scale of 1 to 10 (ten being best)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre Combat Upgrade (CU) </DIV> <DIV>       Solo - 3             (Soloing took forever)</DIV> <DIV>       Group - 6          (As good as anyone other fighter for groups IMHO)</DIV> <DIV>       Raid - 9            (As MT for a Raid, the position was owned by Guardians)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Post Combat Upgrade</DIV> <DIV>       Solo - 6             (Better DPS on solo)</DIV> <DIV>       Group - 3          (Power Comsumption too high to keep up on XP grind groups)</DIV> <DIV>       Raid - 5            (See above, and other fighter classes can also handle MT role, but if Guardian not MT or MA, they serve no purpose on a raid)</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>These are my personal observations. Your mileage may vary.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Aven Elonis</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>60 Guardian, Steamfont, Keepers of the Oak</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Aven Elonis on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:10 PM</span>

[Mig]

If you don't plan on raiding much go zerker. Or paladin.

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuchik wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just started playing last week. I've always loved going toe-to-toe with mobs and soaking up the damage in all MMO's I've played. Hit 20 last night and chose Guardian as an RP decision (Honor and Protection over Instinct and Rage), thinking that both classes would be equally capable. But coming to the boards today has made me feel like I made the wrong decision. Is it really that bad being a Guardian or are all the posts a little over-amplified at the current point in time? Should I reroll while I'm only 20 and go Zerker or is Guardian going to get fixed/be a viable class. From what I've read, it seems that as a Guardian it's going to be very difficult for me to get into groups (especially if another fighter is present) and very difficult to solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guard - Group - Solo = what the hell is there to do</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there are any Guardians that can shed some happy light on the sea of depressing posts in this forum, please do. When I go to the zerker forum I see several posts about people who are happy with their class. In this forum, however, it seems everyone hates their class.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Tuchik on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:53 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P align=center><BR><STRONG>Occam's Razor - The simplest explaination, no matter how improbable, is usually the correct one.</STRONG></P> <P>So, is the simpler explaination that the 100's of Guardians who have left the game are just whining, the 100's who post their displeasure here are just whining, and the few that post that say that everything's peachy are really right?</P> <P>Or is the simplest explaination that Guardians are fuxx0red and unplayable just as everyone is saying through actions or words.</P> <P>You decide.  </P>

[Rah]

<P>Let me reply to this before someone other than a Guardian does. </P> <P>WE ARE ALL WHINING..................</P> <P> </P> <P>Rahge</P>

[Will.]

Soloing: Yes it takes forever and a day to kill anything, even in your offensive stance. On the plus side, it takes forever and <i>2</i> days for anything to kill you so soloing is possible--and very safe, i.e. boring as all get out! Grouping: Most players don't read the forums and don't know that guardians "aren't the prefered tank class" any more. I've gotten blind invites since LU13 so some people still think guards are desireable in a group. More importantly, guards tank just fine. If you get into a group no ones going to say after a while, "Gee, guards really suck at tanking. You need to go." Also guards make great second fighters in a group: an aggro-reducer on the nuke lets them nuke more, an avoidance buff on the MT helps them and the healer, and their protective CAs allow them to pick up the slack when the MT loses it or you get adds. Lastly, everything I see in ooc is "group needs tank and healer" so beggars can be choosers! Rerolling: Zerks suck too. <span>:smileytongue: Fixing Guards: I wouldn't hold my breath for any major changes. Sony seems cool with the basic guard class "as is", and aside from the resist-a-thon that is taunting Orange con mobs there doesn't seem to be anything really "broken". Are all the other fighter classes "better"? Maybe, but if the concept of honor and protection appeals to you stick with a guard. If you change classes just to get a "better" one Sony will only nerf it leaving you with a gimped class with a concept you don't care for. -Will </span><div></div>

[Wasuna]

<P>Guardians do not suck. What I see the situation is that all fighters tank equally well. Guardians have the lowest DPS of almost all fighters and very very little usable utility and none of it is anything that is fun.</P> <P>Guardians can tank fine, we are about equal with all other fighters. We can not play even a subpar DPS role and we have no other benefit to a group other than to tank which we do not excell at.</P>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Will. wrote:<BR>Soloing: Yes it takes forever and a day to kill anything, even in your offensive stance. On the plus side, it takes forever and <I>2</I> days for anything to kill you so soloing is possible--and very safe, i.e. boring as all get out!<BR><BR>Grouping: Most players don't read the forums and don't know that guardians "aren't the prefered tank class" any more. I've gotten blind invites since LU13 so some people still think guards are desireable in a group. More importantly, guards tank just fine. If you get into a group no ones going to say after a while, "Gee, guards really suck at tanking. You need to go." Also guards make great second fighters in a group: an aggro-reducer on the nuke lets them nuke more, an avoidance buff on the MT helps them and the healer, and their protective CAs allow them to pick up the slack when the MT loses it or you get adds. Lastly, everything I see in ooc is "group needs tank and healer" so beggars can be choosers!<BR><BR>Rerolling: Zerks suck too. <SPAN>:smileytongue:<BR><BR>Fixing Guards: I wouldn't hold my breath for any major changes. Sony seems cool with the basic guard class "as is", and aside from the resist-a-thon that is taunting Orange con mobs there doesn't seem to be anything really "broken". Are all the other fighter classes "better"? Maybe, but if the concept of honor and protection appeals to you stick with a guard. If you change classes just to get a "better" one Sony will only nerf it leaving you with a gimped class with a concept you don't care for.<BR><BR>-Will<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I do have to ask you however, is the role of Guardians now debuffing casters and scouts so they can nuke harder, and is that really what you envision the primary role of Guardians to be?  Sometimes mediocre tank and good agro reducer that makes other classes play better?  That makes me a bit sick honestly, might as well be a bot toon. 

[Will.]

<span><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Will. wrote:Soloing: Yes it takes forever and a day to kill anything, even in your offensive stance. On the plus side, it takes forever and <i>2</i> days for anything to kill you so soloing is possible--and very safe, i.e. boring as all get out!Grouping: Most players don't read the forums and don't know that guardians "aren't the prefered tank class" any more. I've gotten blind invites since LU13 so some people still think guards are desireable in a group. More importantly, guards tank just fine. If you get into a group no ones going to say after a while, "Gee, guards really suck at tanking. You need to go." Also guards make great second fighters in a group: an aggro-reducer on the nuke lets them nuke more, an avoidance buff on the MT helps them and the healer, and their protective CAs allow them to pick up the slack when the MT loses it or you get adds. Lastly, everything I see in ooc is "group needs tank and healer" so beggars can be choosers!Rerolling: Zerks suck too. <span>:smileytongue:Fixing Guards: I wouldn't hold my breath for any major changes. Sony seems cool with the basic guard class "as is", and aside from the resist-a-thon that is taunting Orange con mobs there doesn't seem to be anything really "broken". Are all the other fighter classes "better"? Maybe, but if the concept of honor and protection appeals to you stick with a guard. If you change classes just to get a "better" one Sony will only nerf it leaving you with a gimped class with a concept you don't care for.-Will</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I do have to ask you however, is the role of Guardians now debuffing casters and scouts so they can nuke harder, and is that really what you envision the primary role of Guardians to be?  Sometimes mediocre tank and good agro reducer that makes other classes play better?  That makes me a bit sick honestly, might as well be a bot toon. <hr></blockquote>No, the role of guardians is holding aggro, same as it always was--and the same as it is for every fighter class in the game. But, they can also do other things. It's called utility. Sorry that makes you sick. As for the "primary role" I envision for guardians, how about this: Keeping others from getting hurt. But let me explain exactly why I'm not complaining as loudly about my guardian as everyone else is. It's not because I don't think guards got a good whomping from the nerf stick in LU13 (and next to nothing good since then), but because I picked a guard to protect people and I can still do that. If anything guardians are "more" protectors than they were pre-LU13. But I also don't think guards are "in line" with the other fighter classes. Zerks, SKs, and Pallys can all wear the same armor so we have no built in Mit bonus to offset our worse DPS. Frequent taunt resists against over cons mean we have to rely on HTL to keep aggro. Our 30-sec buffs help with mit, but our permanent buffs help with avoidance. I think this should be reversed so we're more "immovable object" and less "ninja boy". Anyway, that's where I'm coming from. -Will</span><div></div>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<P>My guardian sucks soooooo bad...</P> <P>/crowd how bad is he???</P> <P>My guardian sucks sooo bad, I have renamed him Bounty because of his uber suckness....he can pick up spills with super absorbancy!!!</P> <P>Btw, I dinged 60 last night yay me!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[germanicus2112]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prynn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuchik wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just started playing last week. I've always loved going toe-to-toe with mobs and soaking up the damage in all MMO's I've played. Hit 20 last night and chose Guardian as an RP decision (Honor and Protection over Instinct and Rage), thinking that both classes would be equally capable. But coming to the boards today has made me feel like I made the wrong decision. Is it really that bad being a Guardian or are all the posts a little over-amplified at the current point in time? Should I reroll while I'm only 20 and go Zerker or is Guardian going to get fixed/be a viable class. From what I've read, it seems that as a Guardian it's going to be very difficult for me to get into groups (especially if another fighter is present) and very difficult to solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guard - Group - Solo = what the hell is there to do</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there are any Guardians that can shed some happy light on the sea of depressing posts in this forum, please do. When I go to the zerker forum I see several posts about people who are happy with their class. In this forum, however, it seems everyone hates their class.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Tuchik on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:53 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P align=center><BR><STRONG>Occam's Razor - The simplest explaination, no matter how improbable, is usually the correct one.</STRONG></P> <P>So, is the simpler explaination that the 100's of Guardians who have left the game are just whining, the 100's who post their displeasure here are just whining, and the few that post that say that everything's peachy are really right?</P> <P>Or is the simplest explaination that Guardians are fuxx0red and unplayable just as everyone is saying through actions or words.</P> <P>You decide.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Its a heuristic arguement, you left out a key component of Occams Razors, that regarding "the absence of evidence of the contrary" for one of the theories. The competing theories need be equally predictive. Being that this platform is a place for people to express their displeasure, it is in its nature more likely to be used by those who have discontent than those who are satisfied (as those who are satisfied are elsewhere, ie they are PLAYING). Prior to CU13 there were also numerous individuals levelling complaints. That being said, there is a higher degree of frustration in the community of guardians, but I dont think its of a pandemic nature as many on this forum portray.    </P> <P>The point of these forums is for discussion. For the most part, people who post here usually do so because they are unable to go play at the time they are posting (at work), or are upset about something (the game mechanics/physics does not comport with their view of how it should function). People who are actively playing enjoying the class have no incentive to come here. Those with issues do. </P> <P>I think the negativity present on these forums comes from several variables. </P> <P>Bear in mind that much of the complaining comes from the same 5-10 people. Look throughout each thread and you see the same names over and over. The squeeky wheel gets the oil though. </P> <P>I believe the controversy comes more from the way xp is earned post CU13 than from the actual mechanics of guardians. Our spells work as stated. We can tank any mob in the game. Its just the problem lies in that under current game physics, other classes perform our function better (more efficiently) in most group situations. Why? Because group functionality has shifted. How is that ? Because there is little incentive now to fight content that is significantly higher in level in comparison to the average level of the party. In the past there was such incentive- great xp bonus. You could level faster fighting tougher mobs. Guards shine in this environment. Now it is more efficient to fight mobs closer in level to the party, and as such, other tank classes can contribute more to the group, and are therefore 'better' than guardians. The exception to this is when raiding end game content. This is the niche role that guardians now fulfill, but that role is far from exclusively filled by guardians. Guardians have an edge here over others, but other classes are still able to do this content, its just more challenging without having our better mitigation/hp table. </P> <P>The solution to this, IMO, is not to deck guards out with uber-DPS, but instead award the xp bonus for tackling significantly difficult (relative) content. </P> <P>If you are playing the game with an eye on getting to 60 and then doing a large amount of raiding, stick with the guardian. If the journey to 60 itself is what wets your whistle, i'd roll a pally or zerker. There is likely much more demand for them in groups (due to their superior dps and/or utility). </P>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>Bear in mind that much of the complaining comes from the same 5-10 people. Look throughout each thread and you see the same names over and over. The squeeky wheel gets the oil though. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Jeez, I thought the exact same thing.  I couldn't find 100s either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Krooner]

<DIV>And how many people simply voiced theyre opinion with theyre feet?</DIV> <DIV>Its obvious to those that played their guard since day one how many have left.  TONS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prynn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuchik wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just started playing last week. I've always loved going toe-to-toe with mobs and soaking up the damage in all MMO's I've played. Hit 20 last night and chose Guardian as an RP decision (Honor and Protection over Instinct and Rage), thinking that both classes would be equally capable. But coming to the boards today has made me feel like I made the wrong decision. Is it really that bad being a Guardian or are all the posts a little over-amplified at the current point in time? Should I reroll while I'm only 20 and go Zerker or is Guardian going to get fixed/be a viable class. From what I've read, it seems that as a Guardian it's going to be very difficult for me to get into groups (especially if another fighter is present) and very difficult to solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guard - Group - Solo = what the hell is there to do</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there are any Guardians that can shed some happy light on the sea of depressing posts in this forum, please do. When I go to the zerker forum I see several posts about people who are happy with their class. In this forum, however, it seems everyone hates their class.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Tuchik on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:53 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P align=center><BR><STRONG>Occam's Razor - The simplest explaination, no matter how improbable, is usually the correct one.</STRONG></P> <P>So, is the simpler explaination that the 100's of Guardians who have left the game are just whining, the 100's who post their displeasure here are just whining, and the few that post that say that everything's peachy are really right?</P> <P>Or is the simplest explaination that Guardians are fuxx0red and unplayable just as everyone is saying through actions or words.</P> <P>You decide.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Its a heuristic arguement, you left out a key component of Occams Razors, that regarding "the absence of evidence of the contrary" for one of the theories. The competing theories need be equally predictive. Being that this platform is a place for people to express their displeasure, it is in its nature more likely to be used by those who have discontent than those who are satisfied (as those who are satisfied are elsewhere, ie they are PLAYING). Prior to CU13 there were also numerous individuals levelling complaints. That being said, there is a higher degree of frustration in the community of guardians, but I dont think its of a pandemic nature as many on this forum portray.    </P> <P>The point of these forums is for discussion. For the most part, people who post here usually do so because they are unable to go play at the time they are posting (at work), or are upset about something (the game mechanics/physics does not comport with their view of how it should function). People who are actively playing enjoying the class have no incentive to come here. Those with issues do. </P> <P>I think the negativity present on these forums comes from several variables. </P> <P>Bear in mind that much of the complaining comes from the same 5-10 people. Look throughout each thread and you see the same names over and over. The squeeky wheel gets the oil though. </P> <P>I believe the controversy comes more from the way xp is earned post CU13 than from the actual mechanics of guardians. Our spells work as stated. We can tank any mob in the game. Its just the problem lies in that under current game physics, other classes perform our function better (more efficiently) in most group situations. Why? Because group functionality has shifted. How is that ? Because there is little incentive now to fight content that is significantly higher in level in comparison to the average level of the party. In the past there was such incentive- great xp bonus. You could level faster fighting tougher mobs. Guards shine in this environment. Now it is more efficient to fight mobs closer in level to the party, and as such, other tank classes can contribute more to the group, and are therefore 'better' than guardians. The exception to this is when raiding end game content. This is the niche role that guardians now fulfill, but that role is far from exclusively filled by guardians. Guardians have an edge here over others, but other classes are still able to do this content, its just more challenging without having our better mitigation/hp table. </P> <P>The solution to this, IMO, is not to deck guards out with uber-DPS, but instead award the xp bonus for tackling significantly difficult (relative) content. </P> <P>If you are playing the game with an eye on getting to 60 and then doing a large amount of raiding, stick with the guardian. If the journey to 60 itself is what wets your whistle, i'd roll a pally or zerker. There is likely much more demand for them in groups (due to their superior dps and/or utility). </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I want to provide a real world example of what happened with me to counter your argument.  It's a reasonable well thought out argument you make, but it has some gaps to it that I think also have to be examined.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am in a guild on a server, and I was MT#3 pre-LU13.  I loved being in this position because it meant that I didn't have to have the pressure of being successful or not ride entirely on my shoulders.  Certainly, this is the basis for the argument that LU13 should exist.  That more than one person can take the responsibility for failure, and although it looks sexy and sounds good on paper, it doesn't work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why?  Shortly after LU13, I was sent a tell by a guild officer who said, "Two of our Guardians are leaving for WoW, so you are going to have to start gearing yourself up for MA".  So I did as I was told, even though XP had slowed considerably (and no fun), and even though the gear I was wearing was crap now and a massive amount of work to up, and even though my skills were significantly lesser than they were before, I still went to tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What happened was that on a raid that we were able to easily succeed with before, now I was getting ganked in two hits.  That's not additional challenge, that's simply putting more content out of reach for the average gamer no matter which way you slice it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The lesson?  In order to play the new EQ2, you have to forget all the work you did previously.  You have to start over from square one with new gear, new abilities, content that is insanely more difficult than it was, and more annoying.   This is yet another concept that favors the hardcore raider (like most of LU13).   So I left EQ2 and went to WoW.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, why did I choose WoW?  Because 8 of my friends who were made up of all kinds of classes like Defiler, Inquisitor, Warden, and others who were telling me in Teamspeak that they left EQ2 (and to quote them directly) "Because the update made EQ suck and WoW is much more fun."  They don't post here at all....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I told them that WoW was a cartoony crap for a game, I refused to go.  I was complaining on here, and Raijinn locked my posts for no good reason, and Monks and Bruisers were coming on here and laughing about it all.  And to add insult to injury, most of the people here [in the Guardian forum] were taking it right in the [Removed for Content] like it was acceptable, or even a good change.  And nobody I know (the many, many people who I know and talk to in the gaming community) thinks it was a good change either, and it's not just lip service from me.  EQ2 sucks because LU13 sucks.  Period, and it's not just Guardains who think so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, you always have people who like the game no matter what you do.  There are leaders and followers, and the followers are the ones that no matter how much crap is thrown at them, they always see the silver lining.  Good for them, but that's not going to change anything, that's not a leader, and I am not a follower.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those people I mention don't post here at all.  Not to mention the people who were posting who have since left (who we easily forget about so quickly and make up much more than the 5-10 you say).  All you have to do is look at the declining subscriptions since LU13 to know that it's true.</DIV>

[Rah]

<P>blink, blink.........did he just say hueristic?</P> <P>Rahge</P>

[germanicus2112]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prynn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prynn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Of course, you always have people who like the game no matter what you do.  There are leaders and followers, and the followers are the ones that no matter how much crap is thrown at them, they always see the silver lining.  Good for them, but that's not going to change anything, that's not a leader, and I am not a follower.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those people I mention don't post here at all.  Not to mention the people who were posting who have since left (who we easily forget about so quickly and make up much more than the 5-10 you say).  All you have to do is look at the declining subscriptions since LU13 to know that it's true.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I dont doubt that a fair amount have left the game due to combat changes, but at the same time, Im not worried about them, they quit. I simply didnt/dont share the idea that guards are inherently broken now. Can we use some tweaks? You bet. Same goes for combat in general, as well as Xp rewards. Is this destroying gameplay for us? Certainly not. I guess it depends on what your looking for from the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your not a follower, but you followed your friends to WoW after being presented by a few encounters that were excessively challenging? </DIV> <DIV><BR>Because I didnt commit Seppuku or throw a tantrum in forums im a 'follower'. Consider the possibility that people can have differing opinions about what is fun. I can easily make the arguement that the current game, for guardians, is much more challenging, and those who left couldnt step up to that challenge and were expecting a diablo- click and slash game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played my guardian since day one of launch. I wasnt in shell shock after CU13, I thought a change was actually necessary, although it may have been a little more than I desired. Since then, especially since LU16, Guardians have been tweaked, and from all things apparent on test, they are continuing to do so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pardon me if I take exception to the principle that since Im not crying in my beer (or any of the other 'silent' guardians) that makes me or any other guardian not pitching a fit a follower....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To each his own, I hope your enjoying WoW.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by germanicus2112 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:43 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by germanicus2112 on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:44 PM</span>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I dont doubt that a fair amount have left the game due to combat changes, but at the same time, Im not worried about them, they quit. I simply didnt/dont share the idea that guards are inherently broken now. Can we use some tweaks? You bet. Same goes for combat in general, as well as Xp rewards. Is this destroying gameplay for us? Certainly not. I guess it depends on what your looking for from the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your not a follower, but you followed your friends to WoW after being presented by a few encounters that were excessively challenging? </DIV> <DIV><BR>Because I didnt commit Seppuku or throw a tantrum in forums im a 'follower'. Consider the possibility that people can have differing opinions about what is fun. I can easily make the arguement that the current game, for guardians, is much more challenging, and those who left couldnt step up to that challenge and were expecting a diablo- click and slash game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played my guardian since day one of launch. I wasnt in shell shock after CU13, I thought a change was actually necessary, although it may have been a little more than I desired. Since then, especially since LU16, Guardians have been tweaked, and from all things apparent on test, they are continuing to do so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pardon me if I take exception to the principle that since Im not crying in my beer (or any of the other 'silent' guardians) that makes me or any other guardian not pitching a fit a follower....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To each his own, I hope your enjoying WoW.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by germanicus2112 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:43 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by germanicus2112 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:44 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Oh my god.  There is another one?  Thank god we have another guardian that isn't all doom and gloom.  Thanks German, this is what I needed to read today <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Wasuna]

You two are saying the same thing the rest of us are. Guardians are not unplayable but do not fit as equal. You call it tweaks and the rest call it fixes. Get off your high horse becasue others use different words to express themselves. Same to the people that jumped on you. Guardians are not equal but are playable.

[blueduckie]

<P>I disagree that we arnt equal in any setting of the game outside of soloing if you maximize your class. I see some that post brawlers actually out tank guardians but the players behind them suck. Well if they hold aggro through dps. These brawlers can dps. They take less dmg. Then how much skill do they need to stand there dps in defensive stance. That is just making an excuse for wanting to be better.</P> <P>I have yet to see a brawler that can pull 5 ^^^ - pr 5 multi mob encounters at a time and hold aggro on them all at once chain pulling non stop like this by not taking alot of dmg and 1-2 mages in group mowing them down. Only classes i've seen do it are zerkers and paladin who have a slight edge on us because of amends and rampage / open wounds. I have np with fighting like this tho. Brawlers do and that is the best xp in the game period.</P> <P>Every guild that raids high end and has killed up to current content uses g u a r d i a n s. Not just to use them but because they are the best.</P> <P>What LU13+ has done is given us a identity. Not a identity many who played a over powered guardian wanted. Going from over powered to a little under powered was very rough. We have gotten enough fixxes and LU18 is adding a good touch that i think we will be fine. Not only are we the best tank at taking dmg vs raid mobs. We are the best group utility tank. Not only that but our group utility is our self utility to. Such as guardian sphere proccing stoneskin. Commanding Aura. Sentry watch.</P> <P>Just because some have not liked the guardian since LU13 does not mean it is not online with others. I remember pre LU13. All the guardians posted along the line of "I didnt pick guardian to do dps. I picked it to tank." Well it is what we got. We do tank the best. Our aggro is fine. Any fighter can tank on a raid mob. With out hate boosters or hate reducers any tank will get peeled off of by a dps doing there max dmg. The argument of we use all our power in a xp group is just bad managment IMHO. I still xp with guildies and new apps that arnt lvl 60. We bring in some lvl 60 dps to make xp faster. I never have to stop because of power and i can pull 3-5 encounters chain pulling if we are aeing or not and the only time i lose aggro is if they are on a different mob than me. I only use 2 taunts per mob blast staggering rush queeling strike and perfect strike in xp groups. The mob is dead in a ful group just off of 2 taunts and 1 combat skill with out peels.</P> <P>I think some come to the conclusion to quickly we are broken because they had a problem. I have never been in a group where dps wouldnt have there power same to below mine with pulling aggro more than once every 25 mobs on average id say. I slack sometimes and just pull with 1 taunt and talk to group or guild. What could i be doing different? I just think you all try to hard and exaggerate when you say you have to chain every ability to hold aggro. You just need dps to learn there class so they are maxxing group dps.</P> <P>DPS in group is very different from raid. You want to do constant dps pacing your power to healers or mt's if more dps learned xp isnt about unleashing on 1 mob but pacing to have group constantly own mob after mob xp would be faster. I dont read the boards often now but those are mostly the same complaints i've seen. We got what we asked for. We are the best raid tank. We are a great group tank i have no complaints personally. We are the best ae group tanks too IMHO with sphere / aura / maddening. I just know paladin and zerkers will argue that =D</P> <DIV>Also since i said we arnt even soloing. I think since we can tank great for the absolute best xp in the game and brawlers cant easily at all(this is shown by our group utility and there solo utility) that this makes up for our lack of ability to solo. Was getting 25% xp an hour for my troubador AEing so you be the judge if that is a fair trade for xp. Those are my personal findings. Everyone has different experiences in the game but from my experiences guardian is a great class to be.</DIV>

[Ladicav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR> <P>Every guild that raids high end and has killed up to current content uses g u a r d i a n s. Not just to use them but because they are the best.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is a very sweeping statement. Did you do the investigation yourself that revealed that all high end raids have Guardians tanking them? Where did you get this information from, because I am curious to look over the details you have obviously found and presented them as fact here on this thread.</P> <P>Answer is, you are wrong and sweeping statements like this based on your opinion and none to do with fact do nothing to help the up and comers make informed choices. My guild is top heavy on Berserkers, our zerkers do all the tanking of all our raids and they do it bloody well. That is one guild right there which doesn't use Guardians as MT for basically any raid we do, high end or otherwise. Bezerkers are an excellent raid tank, and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well good on them too, I couldn't be happier for them.</P> <P> It's nice to see a fighter class that is well rounded in terms of solo, group and raid contribution which contributes to each equally well. It also shows that SOE have the capacity to be able to mould such a class, so why are they dragging their feet with Guardians.<BR></P>

[Jakerf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR> <P>I disagree that we arnt equal in any setting of the game outside of soloing if you maximize your class. I see some that post brawlers actually out tank guardians but the players behind them suck. Well if they hold aggro through dps. These brawlers can dps. They take less dmg. Then how much skill do they need to stand there dps in defensive stance. That is just making an excuse for wanting to be better.</P> <P>I have yet to see a brawler that can pull 5 ^^^ - pr 5 multi mob encounters at a time and hold aggro on them all at once chain pulling non stop like this by not taking alot of dmg and 1-2 mages in group mowing them down. Only classes i've seen do it are zerkers and paladin who have a slight edge on us because of amends and rampage / open wounds. I have np with fighting like this tho. Brawlers do and that is the best xp in the game period.</P> <P>Every guild that raids high end and has killed up to current content uses g u a r d i a n s. Not just to use them but because they are the best.</P> <P>What LU13+ has done is given us a identity. Not a identity many who played a over powered guardian wanted. Going from over powered to a little under powered was very rough. We have gotten enough fixxes and LU18 is adding a good touch that i think we will be fine. Not only are we the best tank at taking dmg vs raid mobs. We are the best group utility tank. Not only that but our group utility is our self utility to. Such as guardian sphere proccing stoneskin. Commanding Aura. Sentry watch.</P> <P>Just because some have not liked the guardian since LU13 does not mean it is not online with others. I remember pre LU13. All the guardians posted along the line of "I didnt pick guardian to do dps. I picked it to tank." Well it is what we got. We do tank the best. Our aggro is fine. Any fighter can tank on a raid mob. With out hate boosters or hate reducers any tank will get peeled off of by a dps doing there max dmg. The argument of we use all our power in a xp group is just bad managment IMHO. I still xp with guildies and new apps that arnt lvl 60. We bring in some lvl 60 dps to make xp faster. I never have to stop because of power and i can pull 3-5 encounters chain pulling if we are aeing or not and the only time i lose aggro is if they are on a different mob than me. I only use 2 taunts per mob blast staggering rush queeling strike and perfect strike in xp groups. The mob is dead in a ful group just off of 2 taunts and 1 combat skill with out peels.</P> <P>I think some come to the conclusion to quickly we are broken because they had a problem. I have never been in a group where dps wouldnt have there power same to below mine with pulling aggro more than once every 25 mobs on average id say. I slack sometimes and just pull with 1 taunt and talk to group or guild. What could i be doing different? I just think you all try to hard and exaggerate when you say you have to chain every ability to hold aggro. You just need dps to learn there class so they are maxxing group dps.</P> <P>DPS in group is very different from raid. You want to do constant dps pacing your power to healers or mt's if more dps learned xp isnt about unleashing on 1 mob but pacing to have group constantly own mob after mob xp would be faster. I dont read the boards often now but those are mostly the same complaints i've seen. We got what we asked for. We are the best raid tank. We are a great group tank i have no complaints personally. We are the best ae group tanks too IMHO with sphere / aura / maddening. I just know paladin and zerkers will argue that =D</P> <DIV>Also since i said we arnt even soloing. I think since we can tank great for the absolute best xp in the game and brawlers cant easily at all(this is shown by our group utility and there solo utility) that this makes up for our lack of ability to solo. Was getting 25% xp an hour for my troubador AEing so you be the judge if that is a fair trade for xp. Those are my personal findings. Everyone has different experiences in the game but from my experiences guardian is a great class to be.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think most guardians would agree that we are a great raid tank and can hold our own as MT in most groups.  The complaint, at least from me is that the casual guardian has had his world change.</P> <P>I play perhaps 20 hours a week.  I think I know my class pretty well.  I tanked in EQ and have played a tank since beta in EQ2.   The effort required to outfit and level a guardian has gone from average to significantly more difficult then most other classes.  The guildies who I have played with 3 nights per week for the last year are now getting 4-5 levels ahead of me.  Neither they nor I have changed our play styles.  When we group, exp is equal and I can hold aggro.  Those times when I play without them, I am no longer able to solo well (not getting killed but having very slow progress) and I am spending my time harvesting rares just to get good enough equipment to keep up.  My guild pals have taken to buying upgrades for me just to help me stay up, I can't stand that I now seemingly require charity.  When I play without them, I frequently lose aggro in pick up groups.  I know that is at least partially due to the kind of players you sometimes get in a pick up group, but pre lu 13 I was generally able to overcome some overzealousness on the part of other players.  My margin for holding aggro is much narrower now.  </P> <P>We frequently play with a Pally (I am by no means suggesting that Pally's are in anyway overpowered) in the group and there is no question that he holds aggro better on single mobs then I do. This allows the rest of the group to increase their dps to kill the mobs faster.  This was never the case pre lu13.  Pre lu13 I played with handcrafter armor and either handcrafted or (a couple of fabled) weapons and shields.  Most of my taunts were adept 1 with just a few adept 3's.  I played well with this equipment up to level 49.  Since Lu13 I have spent a great deal of time havesting to outfit myself in cobalt and upgrade more spells to adept 3 and while they help, they do not get me to the level where this class is as much fun as it used to be to play.</P> <P>Despite what other classes say, the guardians primary role has always been to be the best tank.  We willingly gave up DPS and utilities to have that distinction.  Except for end game content this is no longer true.  While I don't agree with it, if SOE is going to equilize Tanking ability among the fighters then it is logical to equalize DPS and utilities. That would at least allow the more casual players to level solo or in pick up groups.  I would remind SOE, that the casual player is the bulk of their base and probably the most profitable - since we spend less time on the servers then the hard core gamers do.</P> <P>The bottom line is that EQ2 players are voting with their dollars.  While I have never seen subscription numbers from Sony, I know that the server I play on, Unrest, has gone from very crowded to seemingly empty in some zones.  I can't think of the last time they opened a new server (except for exchange.)  This isn't just guardians leaving but other classes as well.</P> <P>I won't be leaving anytime soon.  However, if SOE, continues to make wholesale changes to the game and the characters that their customers pay to play, the number of paying folks on the servers are going to continue to decline</P> <P> </P>

[Kain Hammersmith]

<P>To the OP:</P> <P>I have played every fighter class except SK. I know which one I enjoyed the most before LU13, and now I know which one I enjoy the most now. The real question is what do you enjoy? If you want to protect you group, go Guard. If you want to be able to group and solo very well, go with a Pally or a Brawler class. I personally do not like the Guardian class anymore. My guild, which I am the leader of, invites me to group even if im not the MT. The problem is that I watch my DPS compared to others and I get sick to my stomach. We have parsed the DPS and in full STR offensive mode I still do less than a Pally in Def/tank mode. The Bruiser in the guild makes me want to cry. So I rolled a Bruiser and I am loving him. I can do things with him that I could never have done with my Guard. My Pally is also very fun, and I can tank very well with him.</P> <P>Sorry, I started to rant. Back on topic. Play the class that makes you the most happy. In my opinion if you are having fun with your lvl 20 Guard, then you should stick with it and have a good time. If you find that you are not having much fun by the time you hit lvl 30, then roll a different class as an alt. I think that Guards will get some help in the distant future.</P> <P>Boagrius</P> <P>Guardian for the land of retirement</P>

[blueduckie]

<P>It is all about how you play IMHO. Where we have our advantages and disadvantages. To me that is the whole part of the way you should play. Making your advantages from your class shine.</P> <P>Ladicav there are plenty of guilds who use diff tanks situationally. However every guild that has killed majority of content uses Guardians. Zerkers are right behind guardians and paladins right behind zerkers. It doesnt mean others cant. The point i was trying to make was everyone screams this bloody murder brawlers take so much less dmg but then how come we dont see it on raids when it should be most visible. For people to make the excuse it is because the brawler doesnt know how to play. All it would be is dpsing from the front since everyone says they can just dps to hold aggro. So i dont buy that obviously. I also said the post was from my experiences learn to understand what is said.</P> <P>When fighting a orange con a guardian shows to be the best. Is it miles ahead? No not at all but it is a big enough difference it is the choice if a good guardian is available to every guild i know. NPU tanks talking in guardian channel about how they let there paladin tank once got 1 shotted never again. So my limit on x server guilds is only so far.</P>

[MrDiz]

They dont suck, but they dont actually shine either. There is nothing about them that is 'sexy'. You will never be bragging about your dps. You will always be the timesink in grind groups and so will be the least desirable tank for that type of group. You wont solo well. You dont get any cool abilities. You have a hard time even duoing as you need healer AND dps. And if any other fighter in your guild has even slightly better gear than you, you will only raid if they dont need the slot for someone who can actually do something because you wont be MT.BUT if all you want to do is raid MT, and youre in a guild where no other tank has better gear than you yet, youre guardian doesnt suck. Best raid tanks are either guardians or paladins right now, depending on whether aggro is an issue.BUT you MUST stay at the top of your guild. If you let any other tank get ahead of you with gear they will become MT and your screwed.

[Terron]

I started playing after LU13 (just). EQ2 is my first MMORPG I didn't know what tanking meant in MMORPG jargon when I chose to be a guardian. Like the OP I chose it based on the description and for RP reasons. Guardians have improved as soloists since I started, due to the addition of the offensive stances improving our DPS. Now I can solo blue non-heroics as well as greens. So some of the older complaints aren't so valid any more. We are still too far behind our fellow warriors, the berzerkers at some levels. Obviously at level 20 there is little difference, and it seems that at 50+ we get some good, distinctive class defining abilities, but I have not got that high, only to level 39) In the 30s it has been my experience that berzerkers can kill things 10-20 times faster than I can, which gets them more money so they can afford better armour and so have a higher mitigation too. I only get to tank small groups where I am the only fighter, so I have little experience of it. I am getting better but slowly.  In large groups there is usually someone better equipped to be the main tank than me (always on raids). When I do go on raids I feel like a parasite, contributing almost nothing but taking experience and treasure.  Guild HQ raids are the exception since the guild gains status from it. Since I don't add much to groups I have to solo much of the time, nd by working on quest you can progress and have fun. I got about 30% exp from about 5 hours soloing yesterday, which seemed fairly good to me, though only a fraction of what I would have got in a group. I have the impression that at higher levels even berzerkers can't afford to just buy the top quality armour and have to harvest the rares, which would probably make things closer. In the twenties the armour quests get you fairly good armour in fun way. So it is possible that the 30s are the worst  stretch. I hope so. <div></div>

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>germanicus2112 wrote:<div></div><p>The solution to this, IMO, is not to deck guards out with uber-DPS, but instead award the xp bonus for tackling significantly difficult (relative) content. </p><hr></blockquote>Other classes can tackle more difficult content solo that guardians do, so there would be a good chance that would make guardians even worse relative to other classes. Asking for our DPS to be increased again so that we are only 5-10 times slower than berzerkers rather than 10-20 times is not asking for uber-DPS. (Yes that is an exteme case, where the berzerker was taking full advantage of his AoE attacks but it is based on experience.) I understand why SOE are not acting quickly on this.  They have said they want all fighters to tank equally well and appear to have roughly achieved that, with guardians perhaps having a slight advantage at the very top end. They won't want to risk that. They have already made the obvious change they could make safely without upsetting that when they gave us offensive stances.  Any other change has to avoid making us better tanks, improve us in other roles, and maintain a distinctive flavour for the sub-class. Especially as there are a lot of people who would look to exploit anything that could possible make us better tanks - people whose collective experience of being a tank is much greater than theirs. </span><div></div>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<DIV>These are my only suggestions to improve the guardian.  These are not game breaking but they would improve some game play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  improve the sentry watch and tower of stone damage to the shields.  Tower  of stone is improving even as we speak.  I do not doubt that sentry watch will get looked at sooner or later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  WIth speaking with our ranger in the guild, he feels that monks are better tanks based on this factor, when the monk single mob taunts, the ranger CANNOT break the aggro the monk has on that single target.  With respect to guardians, we NEVER have that kind of aggro control on a monster.  Now if you think that the monk taunt ability is over powered, or if you think the guardian group taunts need an upgrade, that is for the developers to decide.  However, this is the only advantage I see Monks having over guardians, as well as one utility spell, group FD.  However, to counter this, we guardians have guardian sphere which is a pretty dang good butt saving spell IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are the only issues I have, but by all means I am not coming in here typing "for the love of christ fix guardians" or "my guardian is so broke I'm going to swallow my shotgun barrel if you don't fix him" kind of comments.  People in this forum have no tact and are very disrespectful, which will just ruin our class more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Erendil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Bear in mind that much of the complaining comes from the same 5-10 people. Look throughout each thread and you see the same names over and over. The squeeky wheel gets the oil though.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I posted my 2 posts about 3 months ago. 2 weeks after the revamp my guardian retired and I started playing my ranger, who is now 60, again. A number of friends of mine who never posted left the game shortly after the revamp. I told 1 of them to give them time to make changes. He logged back on a month later, saw that they were the same, and left for WoW. Some of you may be delusional and think that the "5-10 people" are the only unhappy ones, but I strongly believe that they represent most of us.</P> <P>Steadfast -60 Ranger, Toxx<BR>Ventrous  -52 Guardian, Toxx</P> <p>Message Edited by Erendil on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:40 AM</span>

[Tuch]

<DIV>Thank you guys soo much for your input. I have invested what seems to me a lot of time and money on this toon (almost sounds like a joke for a level 20, but all spells are adept 1 or better and full carbonite vanguard when I dinged). I think I'm going to play him to 30 and see what I think. I am still killing mobs pretty quickly, but I think that is due to the berserker type damage skills I still have from my teens. I just dinged 21 last night. So in 9 more levels I think I'll decide whether or not to reroll a zerker.</DIV>

[Etherium]

Ultimately only you can decide what you have fun with.  I ceased to have fun with my Guardian as I am not a raider, but to be honest, I seem to be rather lackluster over the whole game lately.  I am closing my account for now.  I'll check things out again when my interest is renewed.

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prynn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prynn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Of course, you always have people who like the game no matter what you do.  There are leaders and followers, and the followers are the ones that no matter how much crap is thrown at them, they always see the silver lining.  Good for them, but that's not going to change anything, that's not a leader, and I am not a follower.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those people I mention don't post here at all.  Not to mention the people who were posting who have since left (who we easily forget about so quickly and make up much more than the 5-10 you say).  All you have to do is look at the declining subscriptions since LU13 to know that it's true.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I dont doubt that a fair amount have left the game due to combat changes, but at the same time, Im not worried about them, they quit. I simply didnt/dont share the idea that guards are inherently broken now. Can we use some tweaks? You bet. Same goes for combat in general, as well as Xp rewards. Is this destroying gameplay for us? Certainly not. I guess it depends on what your looking for from the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your not a follower, but you followed your friends to WoW after being presented by a few encounters that were excessively challenging? </DIV> <DIV><BR>Because I didnt commit Seppuku or throw a tantrum in forums im a 'follower'. Consider the possibility that people can have differing opinions about what is fun. I can easily make the arguement that the current game, for guardians, is much more challenging, and those who left couldnt step up to that challenge and were expecting a diablo- click and slash game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played my guardian since day one of launch. I wasnt in shell shock after CU13, I thought a change was actually necessary, although it may have been a little more than I desired. Since then, especially since LU16, Guardians have been tweaked, and from all things apparent on test, they are continuing to do so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pardon me if I take exception to the principle that since Im not crying in my beer (or any of the other 'silent' guardians) that makes me or any other guardian not pitching a fit a follower....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To each his own, I hope your enjoying WoW.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by germanicus2112 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:43 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by germanicus2112 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:44 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Good for you.  However, I did say that for some people the game isn't broken.  </P> <P>I went (not followed) to WoW because EQ2 was (and remains) an inferior game.  The people are better over there, the combat system is better, the geography is better, the lag (in most spost) is better, the quest system is better and the XP system is better.  Even the economy is better in WoW.  </P> <P>Is that what it is now, throwing a tantrum?  So when someone says something that they aren't agreeing with, or is opposed to the status quo, they are throwing 'tantrums'?  You seem reasonably intelligent, but that's kind of immature.  </P> <P>I say you're still a follower, not because you "like" the changes, but because you have the illusion that you are a vital part of the community and through acceptance you are able to imagine that you have been a positive impact on it.   </P> <P>I am enjoying WoW.  I will come back to EQ2 when they fix it, otherwise I will spend my money somewhere else where it's appreciated.  And I will continue to post here until I feel as if I have been listened to and acknolwedged, or that I have received $300 worth of enjoyment for posting my displeasure here.   Since they broke my toon, I am going to get my time and money back in another way.</P> <P>P.S.  I leveled 4 toons to the maximum level in 4 completely different MMOG's and am currently on my 5th.  I don't think challenge is the issue. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR> <P>I disagree that we arnt equal in any setting of the game outside of soloing if you maximize your class. I see some that post brawlers actually out tank guardians but the players behind them suck. Well if they hold aggro through dps. These brawlers can dps. They take less dmg. Then how much skill do they need to stand there dps in defensive stance. That is just making an excuse for wanting to be better.</P> <P>I have yet to see a brawler that can pull 5 ^^^ - pr 5 multi mob encounters at a time and hold aggro on them all at once chain pulling non stop like this by not taking alot of dmg and 1-2 mages in group mowing them down. Only classes i've seen do it are zerkers and paladin who have a slight edge on us because of amends and rampage / open wounds. I have np with fighting like this tho. Brawlers do and that is the best xp in the game period.</P> <P>Every guild that raids high end and has killed up to current content uses g u a r d i a n s. Not just to use them but because they are the best.</P> <P>What LU13+ has done is given us a identity. Not a identity many who played a over powered guardian wanted. Going from over powered to a little under powered was very rough. We have gotten enough fixxes and LU18 is adding a good touch that i think we will be fine. Not only are we the best tank at taking dmg vs raid mobs. We are the best group utility tank. Not only that but our group utility is our self utility to. Such as guardian sphere proccing stoneskin. Commanding Aura. Sentry watch.</P> <P>Just because some have not liked the guardian since LU13 does not mean it is not online with others. I remember pre LU13. All the guardians posted along the line of "I didnt pick guardian to do dps. I picked it to tank." Well it is what we got. We do tank the best. Our aggro is fine. Any fighter can tank on a raid mob. With out hate boosters or hate reducers any tank will get peeled off of by a dps doing there max dmg. The argument of we use all our power in a xp group is just bad managment IMHO. I still xp with guildies and new apps that arnt lvl 60. We bring in some lvl 60 dps to make xp faster. I never have to stop because of power and i can pull 3-5 encounters chain pulling if we are aeing or not and the only time i lose aggro is if they are on a different mob than me. I only use 2 taunts per mob blast staggering rush queeling strike and perfect strike in xp groups. The mob is dead in a ful group just off of 2 taunts and 1 combat skill with out peels.</P> <P>I think some come to the conclusion to quickly we are broken because they had a problem. I have never been in a group where dps wouldnt have there power same to below mine with pulling aggro more than once every 25 mobs on average id say. I slack sometimes and just pull with 1 taunt and talk to group or guild. What could i be doing different? I just think you all try to hard and exaggerate when you say you have to chain every ability to hold aggro. You just need dps to learn there class so they are maxxing group dps.</P> <P>DPS in group is very different from raid. You want to do constant dps pacing your power to healers or mt's if more dps learned xp isnt about unleashing on 1 mob but pacing to have group constantly own mob after mob xp would be faster. I dont read the boards often now but those are mostly the same complaints i've seen. We got what we asked for. We are the best raid tank. We are a great group tank i have no complaints personally. We are the best ae group tanks too IMHO with sphere / aura / maddening. I just know paladin and zerkers will argue that =D</P> <DIV>Also since i said we arnt even soloing. I think since we can tank great for the absolute best xp in the game and brawlers cant easily at all(this is shown by our group utility and there solo utility) that this makes up for our lack of ability to solo. Was getting 25% xp an hour for my troubador AEing so you be the judge if that is a fair trade for xp. Those are my personal findings. Everyone has different experiences in the game but from my experiences guardian is a great class to be.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't think you play the same game as the rest of us. We are talking about EQ2 right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Maximize my class? Heck, I'm full cobalt with a coupleof T6 fabled, have a full bag of shields and weapons and I swap around my personal buffs all the time. I also have a full set of T6 buff rings and use them all. I maximixe my class and can still stand next to any brawler class and watch them kill stuff 2-3 times faster than me. In the end they kills things much faster and taken around the same amount of damage/second as I do. They just kill so much faster it seems like they take just a tiny bit of damage. How am I suppose to maximise that other than what I already do?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Guardians can't hold agro like you say paladins and Zerkers can. How does that help or even mean anything to Guardians?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Guilds use all kinds of tanks now. Most guilds are setup around one Mtthat gets all the good gear first and that has continued but as soon as others get their equipmen that changes. These guilds beat tough encounters and they are not stupid. Guardians are slowly phased down to an equal tanking position. I have seen this, people have posted this from their experiance and I see screen shots of this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Identity? You like be subpar as your identity? Also, our utility is a broken concept. Put your protect spells on a mage who we can't keep agro off and see what happens to your healers power. You add damage to the group not reduce. Also, all of our useful buffs like vigilance are actually subpar to the same buffs a brawler can place on others. Also, the haste/dps group buffs increase the groups ability a ton more than our crapy buffs that add 2% to avoidance and 10 to the attack number. Our group buffs and protection skills may be our idenity but they are are subpar and vastly inferior to other fighter class buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. I picked Guardian to tank. SOE decided I couldn't that the best anymore. OK, I'm fine with equality but when do I get my DPS boosted to match other fighters? Equal is equal. They can make me the best tank or the can make me equal in terms of DPS and Utility. I don't care which but one or the other I demand!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. Bull crap pn your DPS members power and your ability to keep agro off them. I have all adept 3/master two taunts and I can;t keep agro off an AOE'er with they go half way out. I have been told by some AOE'er that I keep better agro than anybody else they have seen and I'm still double the power usage than they are and they get agro every other fight. I am 60 and I have done close to 800 quests and been to every single zone pre level 50 and working on that up to level 60 also so don't tell me I don't know what I'm doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. I agree, Guardians are good tanks. But what else are we? Other fighters can be DPS, Guardians can't. Other fighters can effectively solos, Guardans can also but with nowhere near the same results. How is this equal? It's not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>8. Your mistaken. Brawlers cna tank for the best experiance in the game. If you had a group and just change out the MT between Guardian and brawler the brawler led group would get 10-20% more experiance becasue that group can kill 10-20% faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have a good attitude. We need more of that here. But you are incorrect in your impression. People are past posting parses and screen shots and such. Now all we can do is complain becasue SOE didn't responde to the proof we presented.</DIV>

[Tuch]

<DIV> <P>I went (not followed) to WoW because EQ2 was (and remains) an inferior game.  The people are better over there, the combat system is better, the geography is better, the lag (in most spost) is better, the quest system is better and the XP system is better.  Even the economy is better in WoW.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Okay, this is probably going to turn this into a WoW vs EQ post, but I had to comment on a few of these things from the perspective of coming from WoW to EQ.</P> <P> </P> <P>The People: Due to it's simplicity, WoW has opened the doors to a very young community. The maturity level you will find in WoW is definitely a few levels lower than EQ. That does not mean all people are like that. But there are soo many of the l33t, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], I pawn you, don't care bout anyone but me, FPS boys over there that it drove me insane. If you were ever to ask any questions in general chat you would usually get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] n00b, go to Thottbot, and crap like that. So far in EQ I usually get spammed with tells to help answer any questions I have.</P> <P>Combat system: Neither better, completely different. WoW has a higer focus on equipment. Many "CA"s add damage to your weapon damage. Upgrading weapons ever 3-4 levels will help you immensly. EQ's focus seems to be on CA's. As a Guard it seems for DPS my auto-attack doesn't make a big diff, but upgrading from app I to adept III on a dps skill is killer. In WoW there are no "Combos" (HO's here SkillChains in FFXI). I believe WoW's combat is simpler in design, but very enjoyable. So far I love EQII's combat system, but hate their itemization. Upgrading every 10 levels with everyone looking the same <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Geography: WoW did an incredible job of making the terrain look good with minimal impact to GPU's. Hat's off to them. EQII, if you have a good setup, the landscape looks incredible. I'm not that familiar with EQII geography, but I did like the fact that there were towns/outposts all over in WoW. In EQII it seems its Qeynos/Freeport and thats it. WoW you could bind at Inn's all over the place.</P> <P>Lag: WoW has a lot of strong points, but lag is not one of them. It's finally getting better, but I remember the days where I would spend about 30 seconds on my knees looting a mob. So far I haven't had any lag in EQII. I think Sony's experience with EQI would have helped them prepare better for Lag/Hardware whereas this was Blizz's first foray into MMO's. The lag was sickening for a long time in WoW.</P> <P>Quests: These seem really comparable. Both games have tons of them. They are fun to do, but you don't really use much of what you get. Most quest rewards in both games seem to get vendored pretty quick.</P> <P>XP: Better? I don't know that it's better. It's definitely faster. I've put about 50 hours into EQII so far and I'm level 21. In WoW I can get to 20 in about 20 hours. Of course a lot of that has to do with experience (knowing where everything is and able to quest fast). I like in WoW that you see how much actualy XP you get. I'm getting used to this percentage stuff.</P> <P>Economy: It's hard to compare these right now, but I know in WoW that crafters don't make squat on anything but rare recipes that noone else has. Not to mention their crafting system isn't really a system at all. You can max crafting in 1 day. The money is in doing faction quests for a month to get a recipe that no one has so you can gouge people. Otherwise you will generally never sell anything for more than it cost to get the ingredients. Do to the incredible itemization in the game though, there are chances to get somoe good rare and epic drops that can net you some coin. I love EQ crafting. It's actually like leveling. It's way more complicated than WoW's crafting, but I like it that way.</P> <P>PvP: You didn't mention it, but deserves note. EQII PvP doesn't even compare. WoW has it in that market and most likely always will. I still have my WoW account just for when I feel like PvPing (hasn't happened yet as I've been loving EQII, but I'm sure I'll get the itch).</P> <P>Anyway, I still love both games. Mostly got sick of the community and was also looking for new content/better crafting. I'll keep both accounts for a while, but will probably end up closing WoW account as I get farther into this game. In general, I have noticed that WoW is a simpler game that appeals more to casual gamers (my wife plays WoW, and she hates games, she has a 60 mage all on her own, but she can't get into EQII, she says things are too hard). That's not to say WoW is all simplicity. Players who harbor a deep knowledge of the game can smoke you!</P> <P>That's my take. Sorry it really doesn't belong in this thread, but there it is!</P></DIV>

[GurgGuardianLord]

<DIV>First post ever on these forums at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am currently a 53 Guardian on The Bazaar by the name Thamaz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I quit early this year and just returned. I promptly spent 12 platinum for a full suit of Cobalt, and more money on weapons to catch up with the times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I regret this highly, I can't get a group for the life of me. I would be extremly happy if Sony would allow me to turn into a paladin or shadowknight or I guess a berserker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I suppose any other fighter as well, but Id like to be able to use my cobalt. If they are truely not going to change this class, they should allow us to do that. I know thats not in sonys regular practice...but the guardian is NOTHING like it was when I quit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What happened????? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imho we need an AC boost, hp boost, dump the "utilities" and knock down our DPS some. I hit to hard. Currently my crush is like 500 damage, it should be like 250-300, and I should have a few hundred AC boost and HP boost, increase my taunt threat, and dump some of these utilities I didn't have when I quit lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who broke my Guardian?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks shouldn't be able to tank, I don't care who you are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats like saying my Necro can tank because he dodgs everyones attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This isn't the matrix online folks. I spent 12platinum on Cobalt armor, heavy,heavy plate armor. Somone weather a leather thong CAN NOT take a hit like me</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Drulak]

<P>Wasuna's reply above is spot on.  Talking as someone with both a monk and a guard.    I do love my guard and i think he is an adequate tank.  I rarely loose aggro and enjoy the hard fight to get it back if i do loose it. Not always successful though. So in all thinks group tanking i am happy with my lot.  BUT .......</P> <P>I never get picked up anymore and why should I , with my monk as tank , mobs die and die quick , and if i ever loose aggro , (only happened a couple of times at the very start of the fight (or to other monks)  then to get the aggro back is a piece of cake.</P> <P>Would my monk be able to tank 5 ^^^ ,   orange - no , green - yes.  Could my guard tank 5 ^^^ , orange - no , green yes .  So saying brawlers cannot tank 5 ^^^ is not really relevent because i believe they would cope with mobs as would a guard.</P> <P>5 ^ heroics , guards will hold aggro better and with less effort than a Monk , but a monk can still hold 5 mob aggro.  Just the same as a guardian can still hold a single mob aggro , just takes a lot more effort than it does for a monk.  And in both scenarios , monk will always get aggro back easier.</P> <P>Guardians can tank  ...  but all other fighters tank and do dps and  utility .</P>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pjackson wrote:<BR><BR>Guardians have improved as soloists since I started, due to the addition of the offensive stances improving our DPS. Now I can solo blue non-heroics as well as greens.<BR>So some of the older complaints aren't so valid any more.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, you are saying you can solo blue and green solo mobs? Sorry I wouldnt proclaim this as a point of pride. My level 47 Warlock can solo yellows and oranges. Admittedly the oranges have to go right, but yellows are typically not an issue and we are talking about yellows 4 levels above her. So the fact that as a Guardian Iam restricted to blues and greens which give 0.01% XP at 52 doesnt make me a 'viable' soloer. </P> <P>If you started POST LU13, you never played a Guardian prior to the changes, ergo you have no basis for comparision. We have improved as soloists since when? LU13? SOEs token bones to the Guardian community have come nowhere close to matching our abilities Pre LU13. </P> <P>Bottom line, in groups I can do ok. Soloing is a slow, painful gut wrenching agonizing drag. I dont enjoy having to get help for quests that my fellow guildies have done solo. </P> <P>Are we hopelessly broken? No. Are we as much fun to play anymore? No. <BR></P>

[Excalibre33]

<DIV>Hey guys come check this thread out?</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=86950&jump=true#M86950" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=86950&jump=true#M86950</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wasuna wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR> <P>I disagree that we arnt equal in any setting of the game outside of soloing if you maximize your class. I see some that post brawlers actually out tank guardians but the players behind them suck. Well if they hold aggro through dps. These brawlers can dps. They take less dmg. Then how much skill do they need to stand there dps in defensive stance. That is just making an excuse for wanting to be better.</P> <P>I have yet to see a brawler that can pull 5 ^^^ - pr 5 multi mob encounters at a time and hold aggro on them all at once chain pulling non stop like this by not taking alot of dmg and 1-2 mages in group mowing them down. Only classes i've seen do it are zerkers and paladin who have a slight edge on us because of amends and rampage / open wounds. I have np with fighting like this tho. Brawlers do and that is the best xp in the game period.</P> <P>Every guild that raids high end and has killed up to current content uses g u a r d i a n s. Not just to use them but because they are the best.</P> <P>What LU13+ has done is given us a identity. Not a identity many who played a over powered guardian wanted. Going from over powered to a little under powered was very rough. We have gotten enough fixxes and LU18 is adding a good touch that i think we will be fine. Not only are we the best tank at taking dmg vs raid mobs. We are the best group utility tank. Not only that but our group utility is our self utility to. Such as guardian sphere proccing stoneskin. Commanding Aura. Sentry watch.</P> <P>Just because some have not liked the guardian since LU13 does not mean it is not online with others. I remember pre LU13. All the guardians posted along the line of "I didnt pick guardian to do dps. I picked it to tank." Well it is what we got. We do tank the best. Our aggro is fine. Any fighter can tank on a raid mob. With out hate boosters or hate reducers any tank will get peeled off of by a dps doing there max dmg. The argument of we use all our power in a xp group is just bad managment IMHO. I still xp with guildies and new apps that arnt lvl 60. We bring in some lvl 60 dps to make xp faster. I never have to stop because of power and i can pull 3-5 encounters chain pulling if we are aeing or not and the only time i lose aggro is if they are on a different mob than me. I only use 2 taunts per mob blast staggering rush queeling strike and perfect strike in xp groups. The mob is dead in a ful group just off of 2 taunts and 1 combat skill with out peels.</P> <P>I think some come to the conclusion to quickly we are broken because they had a problem. I have never been in a group where dps wouldnt have there power same to below mine with pulling aggro more than once every 25 mobs on average id say. I slack sometimes and just pull with 1 taunt and talk to group or guild. What could i be doing different? I just think you all try to hard and exaggerate when you say you have to chain every ability to hold aggro. You just need dps to learn there class so they are maxxing group dps.</P> <P>DPS in group is very different from raid. You want to do constant dps pacing your power to healers or mt's if more dps learned xp isnt about unleashing on 1 mob but pacing to have group constantly own mob after mob xp would be faster. I dont read the boards often now but those are mostly the same complaints i've seen. We got what we asked for. We are the best raid tank. We are a great group tank i have no complaints personally. We are the best ae group tanks too IMHO with sphere / aura / maddening. I just know paladin and zerkers will argue that =D</P> <DIV>Also since i said we arnt even soloing. I think since we can tank great for the absolute best xp in the game and brawlers cant easily at all(this is shown by our group utility and there solo utility) that this makes up for our lack of ability to solo. Was getting 25% xp an hour for my troubador AEing so you be the judge if that is a fair trade for xp. Those are my personal findings. Everyone has different experiences in the game but from my experiences guardian is a great class to be.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't think you play the same game as the rest of us. We are talking about EQ2 right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Maximize my class? Heck, I'm full cobalt with a coupleof T6 fabled, have a full bag of shields and weapons and I swap around my personal buffs all the time. I also have a full set of T6 buff rings and use them all. I maximixe my class and can still stand next to any brawler class and watch them kill stuff 2-3 times faster than me. In the end they kills things much faster and taken around the same amount of damage/second as I do. They just kill so much faster it seems like they take just a tiny bit of damage. How am I suppose to maximise that other than what I already do?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Guardians can't hold agro like you say paladins and Zerkers can. How does that help or even mean anything to Guardians?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Guilds use all kinds of tanks now. Most guilds are setup around one Mtthat gets all the good gear first and that has continued but as soon as others get their equipmen that changes. These guilds beat tough encounters and they are not stupid. Guardians are slowly phased down to an equal tanking position. I have seen this, people have posted this from their experiance and I see screen shots of this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Identity? You like be subpar as your identity? Also, our utility is a broken concept. Put your protect spells on a mage who we can't keep agro off and see what happens to your healers power. You add damage to the group not reduce. Also, all of our useful buffs like vigilance are actually subpar to the same buffs a brawler can place on others. Also, the haste/dps group buffs increase the groups ability a ton more than our crapy buffs that add 2% to avoidance and 10 to the attack number. Our group buffs and protection skills may be our idenity but they are are subpar and vastly inferior to other fighter class buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. I picked Guardian to tank. SOE decided I couldn't that the best anymore. OK, I'm fine with equality but when do I get my DPS boosted to match other fighters? Equal is equal. They can make me the best tank or the can make me equal in terms of DPS and Utility. I don't care which but one or the other I demand!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. Bull crap pn your DPS members power and your ability to keep agro off them. I have all adept 3/master two taunts and I can;t keep agro off an AOE'er with they go half way out. I have been told by some AOE'er that I keep better agro than anybody else they have seen and I'm still double the power usage than they are and they get agro every other fight. I am 60 and I have done close to 800 quests and been to every single zone pre level 50 and working on that up to level 60 also so don't tell me I don't know what I'm doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. I agree, Guardians are good tanks. But what else are we? Other fighters can be DPS, Guardians can't. Other fighters can effectively solos, Guardans can also but with nowhere near the same results. How is this equal? It's not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>8. Your mistaken. Brawlers cna tank for the best experiance in the game. If you had a group and just change out the MT between Guardian and brawler the brawler led group would get 10-20% more experiance becasue that group can kill 10-20% faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have a good attitude. We need more of that here. But you are incorrect in your impression. <FONT color=#ffffff>People are past posting parses and screen shots and such. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0066>Now all we can do is complain becasue SOE didn't responde to the proof we presented.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yea.. whats up with that? If there was a response from SoE I certainly didn't see it. I may have missed it but I don't think so..<BR> <p>Message Edited by Trook on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:47 AM</span>