A Guardian Revamp That would WORK. SOE Listen

[Jibantic]

Ok, hear me out. The few major problems the high level guardians are having is: 1) We have no offensive role in a raid. This is obvious, if your a guardian in a raid that has a MT, and ST, the guardian is useless. This is unacceptable due to the fact any damage or healing class has a unlimted use in a raid. Since raids are limited to 4 groups, guardians are being left out at an astonishing rate due to lack of dps when tank positions are filled. 2) We are completly useless in a duel. I am pretty un biased on the guardian due to the fact I usually have a roll in a raid either MT, MA, or as a Secondary/Off tank. However I will offer 2 solutions to fix these two problems. Fix 1. whould fix at least problem 1, and would be extremly easy to slip on Test. Make us hit HARDER! an offensive guardians hit rate is fine, but we should be able to use a CA that will hit in acess of 2000+ and average melee hits in the range of +500. Afterall, warrior classes are the "strongest" class. Why are we not the hardest hitting melee class! Fix 2. Yes we are not rangers, but we still use BOWS! .. Guardians should have a defined role as a bower. not nearly as fast or accurate as a ranger, but we should still hit really really friggen hard with a bow, even harder than a ranger seeing as we are the strongest. How about two CAs, 1 concentration ability that decreases our mitigation for Bow attack power. Focus of Range or something. app1(-700 mitigation, +700 on bow attacks). master1 (-2500 mit, +2500 on bow attacks). And maybe 1 or 2 30 sec recast abilities that deals extra bowing damage. Either 2 or a combination of the two whould make a guardians none tanking role much more appropiate in raids and duels <div></div>

[Sirlutt]

As a ranger, with a Guardian alt who feels your pain i have to say.. your on drugs. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hehe. .to fix guards you just need to change some fo the buffs .. add a new agro buff ...not an agro reducer, but an agro siphon .. make it a group wide AE buff that puts a "proc" on all group members that has a 5% chance to proc a hate buff to the guardian when they take damage, and a 1% when they do damage... dont make the hate gain huge .. maybe 100-150 points (need to test and adjust this)step 2 is make tower sheilds different from kite shields .. give them a higher bonus to avoidance.step 3 is tweak a the stances a little.. more damage on the offensive.. more mit (and a little avoidance) on the defensive stances across the board.Keep in mind these are just ideas .. but the guardians need more mit/avoid when concentrating on tanking .. and need something to assist with agro, much like what pally's get, but AE and with a proc.<div></div>

[germanicus2112]

<P>Guardians dont need more damage output. Their role is to absorb damage done to themselves and group members. If you want to tweak them, make them better able to do this function.</P> <P>As far as their usefulness on raids, non-mt guards can serve useful roles, from intercede-tower of stone combo, guardian sphere, call to war, slowing/debuffing mob (plant/hew), deaggro (assuage). Is it often better to have a pure dps in many cases? You bet. But guards can contribute if they understand how different spells can be used in conjunction with one another.  </P> <P>Giving guards the DPS you ask for would unbalance us with respect to other tanks (especially zerkers). We already are the best tanks in a raid capacity, you want us to now have equivalent dps?</P>

[Jibantic]

ok your both missing the point. Lets take an example: Max raid.. 24 people. Guild has 30 members online 10 tank classes 10 healers 10 Dps Raid requires 3 tanks. who do you choose 100% of the time OVER the 6 remain tanks? Take a guardian over Ranger? Take a guardian over a templar? a guardian offers 1/10th of the dps of a ranger. and 1/10th of the "protection" a heal class does <div></div>

[Krooner]

<DIV>germanicus2112 wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Giving guards the DPS you ask for would unbalance us with respect to other tanks (especially zerkers). <U><STRONG>We already are the best tanks in a raid capacity,</STRONG> </U>you want us to now have equivalent dps?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is an outdated notion.  SOE has already stated that all fighters can tank <STRONG><U><EM>equally!!!</EM></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>We may have more taunts but their hate range and recast time are so close to the others that the differnence is <P><SPAN>inconsequential.  Add to this the fact that many other classes have a agro shift art to add on the MT and you wind up with us being second or third tier.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>IMO At this time in this ever changing EQ2 world the faster you kill the mob the safer you are.  Thus our skills are out of date with the current envoirment.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>12-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

[germanicus2112]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jibantic wrote:<BR>ok your both missing the point.<BR><BR>Lets take an example:<BR><BR>Max raid.. 24 people.<BR><BR>Guild has 30 members online<BR><BR>10 tank classes<BR>10 healers<BR>10 Dps<BR><BR>Raid requires 3 tanks. who do you choose 100% of the time OVER the 6 remain tanks?<BR><BR>Take a guardian over Ranger? Take a guardian over a templar?<BR><BR>a guardian offers 1/10th of the dps of a ranger. and 1/10th of the "protection" a heal class does<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>If you have that makeup of players for a raid, the problem isnt in the guardian class, its in the balance of your guild. Its not Sony's job to make sure that all classes have equivalent functionality within the spectrum of each class in itself, because you have too many tanks relative to dps showing up on raids. Why bother have variations at all within tanks? Your asking for homogeny. It seems everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. In order to do something well (mitigate damage), you have to accept you will do other things not so well (DPS). </DIV>

[germanicus2112]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>germanicus2112 wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Giving guards the DPS you ask for would unbalance us with respect to other tanks (especially zerkers). <U><STRONG>We already are the best tanks in a raid capacity,</STRONG> </U>you want us to now have equivalent dps?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is an outdated notion.  SOE has already stated that all fighters can tank <STRONG><U><EM>equally!!!</EM></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>We may have more taunts but their hate range and recast time are so close to the others that the differnence is <P><SPAN>inconsequential.  Add to this the fact that many other classes have a agro shift art to add on the MT and you wind up with us being second or third tier.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>IMO At this time in this ever changing EQ2 world the faster you kill the mob the safer you are.  Thus our skills are out of date with the current envoirment.</SPAN></P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:22 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>All tanks are NOT equal fighting end game epic mobs. <BR></DIV>

[Krooner]

According to SOE they are.  Not my words but theirs. 

[Timzil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <P>Guardians dont need more damage output. Their role is to absorb damage done to themselves and group members. If you want to tweak them, make them better able to do this function.</P> <P>As far as their usefulness on raids, non-mt guards can serve useful roles, from intercede-tower of stone combo, guardian sphere, call to war, slowing/debuffing mob (plant/hew), deaggro (assuage). Is it often better to have a pure dps in many cases? You bet. But guards can contribute if they understand how different spells can be used in conjunction with one another.  </P> <P>Giving guards the DPS you ask for would unbalance us with respect to other tanks (especially zerkers). We already are the best tanks in a raid capacity, you want us to now have equivalent dps?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>When you come down, read your post. I think you'll get a good laugh.

[Styk]

<DIV>This is for the OP , do you want a more playable class or a Guard pre LU 13? If a more playable class then LU 18 looks promising ( thou will have to wait and see ) but if you want pre LU 13 then im sorry to say that , it wont happen </DIV>

[Macross_JR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timzilla wrote: <blockquote> <hr> germanicus2112 wrote: <div></div> <p>Guardians dont need more damage output. Their role is to absorb damage done to themselves and group members. If you want to tweak them, make them better able to do this function.</p> <p>As far as their usefulness on raids, non-mt guards can serve useful roles, from intercede-tower of stone combo, guardian sphere, call to war, slowing/debuffing mob (plant/hew), deaggro (assuage). Is it often better to have a pure dps in many cases? You bet. But guards can contribute if they understand how different spells can be used in conjunction with one another.  </p> <p>Giving guards the DPS you ask for would unbalance us with respect to other tanks (especially zerkers). We already are the best tanks in a raid capacity, you want us to now have equivalent dps?</p> <hr> </blockquote>When you come down, read your post. I think you'll get a good laugh. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm sorry, I need to disagree with you Timzilla.  I was guilded with germanicus/Romonius and have to agree with him.  Guardians are the best MT for raids still, also he makes very solid pionts about our CA's.  If you use them in the right order it is a blessing.  I mean try this next raid where you are not the MT, throw up ToS then Intercede, note: not sentry but interced, it's a lvl 36 ability, 100% chance to take damage for the person you use it on for one hit.  Think about it, if it is a big hit then that will proc ToS.  You take no damage, the MT takes no damage, win win situation where I am coming from.  Oh and Assuage, omg it is so nice.  Put a guard in a dps group, let them throw that on someone, have someone if the dps group throw up his hate transfer to the guard, cause we all know that guards can't pull aggro any way right? I have pulled aggro from many of tanks while in dps mode.  It is all how you play your toon, how well you know what you are doing, how good your gear is, and how advanced your CA's are.  If you don't belive me come on over to the Permafrost server and I can show you.</span><div></div>

[Allowin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <P>Guardians dont need more damage output. <STRONG>THEIR</STRONG> role is to absorb damage done to <STRONG>THEMSELVES</STRONG> and group members. If you want to tweak <STRONG>THEM</STRONG>, make <STRONG>THEM</STRONG> better able to do this function.</P> <P>As far as <STRONG>THEIR</STRONG> usefulness on raids, non-mt guards can serve useful roles, from intercede-tower of stone combo, guardian sphere, call to war, slowing/debuffing mob (plant/hew), deaggro (assuage). Is it often better to have a pure dps in many cases? You bet. But guards can contribute if <STRONG>THEY</STRONG> understand how different spells can be used in conjunction with one another.  </P> <P>Giving guards the DPS you ask for would unbalance us with respect to other tanks (especially zerkers). We already are the best tanks in a raid capacity, you want us to now have equivalent dps?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>funny how you started out calling guardians "them" and "their" and "they" but try to finish off sounding like your a guardian. (if i had to guess, a zerker or monk or other fighter class who dont want to see guardians equal to them)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you think WE are the best fighter class, your stone drunk. we are EQUAL (quote from sony) and we should ALL be equal in EVERY way. dps, tanking and utility. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>before you start on your "want your cake and eat it too" speech. dont get mad at me. i didnt want this revamp. sony did. all the other fighter classes that cried and moaned about guardians tanking better that the rest got their answer. they can tank as well (and some cases better) than a guard. but sony stopped after making us equal tanks. they forgot to make us equal dps and utility classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>once again, this was sony's idea to make us equal. not guardians.</DIV> <DIV>so im just telling them to make good on their quote. to make us ALL equal in ALL areas</DIV>

[Macross_JR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Allowin wrote: <blockquote> <hr> germanicus2112 wrote: <div></div> <p>Guardians dont need more damage output. <strong>THEIR</strong> role is to absorb damage done to <strong>THEMSELVES</strong> and group members. If you want to tweak <strong>THEM</strong>, make <strong>THEM</strong> better able to do this function.</p> <p>As far as <strong>THEIR</strong> usefulness on raids, non-mt guards can serve useful roles, from intercede-tower of stone combo, guardian sphere, call to war, slowing/debuffing mob (plant/hew), deaggro (assuage). Is it often better to have a pure dps in many cases? You bet. But guards can contribute if <strong>THEY</strong> understand how different spells can be used in conjunction with one another.  </p> <p>Giving guards the DPS you ask for would unbalance us with respect to other tanks (especially zerkers). We already are the best tanks in a raid capacity, you want us to now have equivalent dps?</p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>funny how you started out calling guardians "them" and "their" and "they" but try to finish off sounding like your a guardian. (if i had to guess, a zerker or monk or other fighter class who dont want to see guardians equal to them)</div> <div> </div> <div>if you think WE are the best fighter class, your stone drunk. we are EQUAL (quote from sony) and we should ALL be equal in EVERY way. dps, tanking and utility. </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>before you start on your "want your cake and eat it too" speech. dont get mad at me. i didnt want this revamp. sony did. all the other fighter classes that cried and moaned about guardians tanking better that the rest got their answer. they can tank as well (and some cases better) than a guard. but sony stopped after making us equal tanks. they forgot to make us equal dps and utility classes.</div> <div> </div> <div>once again, this was sony's idea to make us equal. not guardians.</div> <div>so im just telling them to make good on their quote. to make us ALL equal in ALL areas</div><hr></blockquote>He is a guardian, the leader of Iconoclast one of the top raiding guilds on permafrost, look him up.</span><div></div>

[germanicus2112]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Allowin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <P>Guardians dont need more damage output. <STRONG>THEIR</STRONG> role is to absorb damage done to <STRONG>THEMSELVES</STRONG> and group members. If you want to tweak <STRONG>THEM</STRONG>, make <STRONG>THEM</STRONG> better able to do this function.</P> <P>As far as <STRONG>THEIR</STRONG> usefulness on raids, non-mt guards can serve useful roles, from intercede-tower of stone combo, guardian sphere, call to war, slowing/debuffing mob (plant/hew), deaggro (assuage). Is it often better to have a pure dps in many cases? You bet. But guards can contribute if <STRONG>THEY</STRONG> understand how different spells can be used in conjunction with one another.  </P> <P>Giving guards the DPS you ask for would unbalance us with respect to other tanks (especially zerkers). We already are the best tanks in a raid capacity, you want us to now have equivalent dps?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>funny how you started out calling guardians "them" and "their" and "they" but try to finish off sounding like your a guardian. (if i had to guess, a zerker or monk or other fighter class who dont want to see guardians equal to them)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you think WE are the best fighter class, your stone drunk. we are EQUAL (quote from sony) and we should ALL be equal in EVERY way. dps, tanking and utility. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>before you start on your "want your cake and eat it too" speech. dont get mad at me. i didnt want this revamp. sony did. all the other fighter classes that cried and moaned about guardians tanking better that the rest got their answer. they can tank as well (and some cases better) than a guard. but sony stopped after making us equal tanks. they forgot to make us equal dps and utility classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>once again, this was sony's idea to make us equal. not guardians.</DIV> <DIV>so im just telling them to make good on their quote. to make us ALL equal in ALL areas</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well, I am a guardian. We should not be equal in all areas, if that were the case we would all be a generic 'fighter' with difference only in name. Thats obviously not Sony's intent. All tanks are not equal right now regarding what they can tank. If you havent faced much of the higher orange epic content in DoF you may not realize it, but there are distinct advantages which guards exhibit against the higher level mobs. </P> <P>Where did Sony say we should be equal in every way?</P> <P>I think the latest set of changes on Test are down the right path for guardians. They are increasing our ability to 'protect' ourselves and others. This is the guardians role, diminish (mitigate) damage. Not put it out. </P> <P>If you wanted more DPS as a heavy plate wearer, you should have rolled an SK or a Berzerker.</P>

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>germanicus2112 wrote: <p>Guardians dont need more damage output. Their role is to absorb damage done to themselves and group members. If you want to tweak them, make them better able to do this function.</p><hr> </blockquote>All three of those sentences are wrong. Guardians should have less DPS than berzerkers and better ability to absorb damage. But if the advantage in taking damge is too great then they will be much better tanks, since defense is more important  than offense when tanking (assuming aggro holding is also roughly equal). So guardians have only a small advantage in defense and that can not be increased significantly, at least not in ways that are useful when tanking. But the difference in DPS seems much larger. The new offensive stance helped,  but I think a little more is needed. Whilst absorbing damage in a group is a typical guardian's main function, it is not our only one. Sometimes we solo, sometimes the group does not need another member taking the damage, and we need to do something else. As you wrote </span>"we already are the best tanks in a raid capacity", so we do not need to be better in that role. <span>It is our abilities to perform in other roles, particularly soloing where improvements are needed/ </span> <div></div>

[Jibantic]

It's Obvious sony intended for Guardians to have a none tanking role withen groups and raids. We have offensive stance, can duel weild, equip a bow. The fact of the matter is that these alternate abilities are useless in this alternate role. I am more worried about where sony is taking this class. They preach equality amoungst tanks, and as they strive to reach this equality, you notice they are not preaching equality amoungst DPS do YOU. Not saying tanks are equal YET, However there is no mention of equality of warrior classes when it comes to doing damage. Now the counter argument to our alternate role is we are protectors. Is there equality amoungst protection classes? no of course not. To the point, my bias is towards these mages, dps classes, heal classes owning us in duels and solo'ing. everyone knows a large population of us spend more time in a solo role doing time sinked quests and dueling with our friends while waiting on that 500 hour rare spawn. Sony has given almost every class equal and well defined abilities to accomplish this except for guardians. It's kinda hilarious when you hear Berserkers and Brawlers (DPS defined) becoming more equal tanks but when you hear Guardians wanting to become more equal DPS we get laughed at. Why would you say "if you wanted to be a DPS class you should have rolled one".. I say to that "If you wanted to be a tank you should have rolled a guardian". I rolled a guardian because I wanted to be a tank, but as our role gets diminished (equalized) on a daily basis, I am getting worried this last year of leveling a guardian to 60 is becoming a waste of my time the more Sony messes with this equality issue in one direction (tanking), but not the other (Dps). Sony's moto of EQ2 is BALANCE. This is obvious with the lack of AA abilities. Take Bruiser/Berserker vs a Guardian. BB can tank equal to a guardian, but can output 2 to 3 times more damage. Where is the balance in this? My final point is either Balance, or don't foook with our tanking abilities. <div></div>

[Mig]

<P><FONT size=1>Well, I am a guardian. We should not be equal in all areas, if that were the case we would all be a generic 'fighter' with difference only in name. Thats obviously not Sony's intent. All tanks are not equal right now regarding what they can tank. If you havent faced much of the higher orange epic content in DoF you may not realize it, but there are distinct advantages which guards exhibit against the higher level mobs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Where did Sony say we should be equal in every way?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>I think the latest set of changes on Test are down the right path for guardians. They are increasing our ability to 'protect' ourselves and others. This is the guardians role, diminish (mitigate) damage. Not put it out.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>If you wanted more DPS as a heavy plate wearer, you should have rolled an SK or a Berzerker.</FONT></P> <HR> This guy is pretty much right on. Really the only reason to roll a guardian is to tank raids. If your never going to raid, a guardian is the last class you want to play. I'm starting to tank the higher level mobs in DoF. The extra health, taunting while stunned, being able to slow, and buff mitigation against damage spikes gives a slight edge above the other tanks that is easier to see when tanking these encounters. I am having fun now. But honestly I really didn't have much fun leveling my guardian to 60th. We are good choice to tank <EM>hard</EM> raid mobs. Everything else, get another tank.<p>Message Edited by Migyb on <span class=date_text>12-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:10 PM</span>

[Jibantic]

Waz just reading LU13 update notes, and as you can see from this copy under fighter classes: " - Adjusting spells and combat arts to ensure that damage, healing, and utility are more proportionate among the classes. -Making spell upgrades more meaningful and satisfying by adding new spells and arts to better fill out character progression and put the emphasis on distinctiveness at the subclass level." Point one, proportionate  (exhibiting equivalence or correspondence among constituents of an entity or between different entities) damage! Healing! and utility. Where again was the equivalence of Guardian DPS to Berserker DPS.. I certainly saw a significant jump in Berserker tanking abilities... Point two, "distinctiveness at the subclass level". Where guardians distinctiveness was toward protection. Any class that can heal is a better protector then a guardian Any class that can increase Wis for resists is a better protector than a guardian Any class that can Mez, Stun, Root is a better protector than a guardian Where is the distinctiveness of being a guardian... please tell me.. I'd love to hear options.... We can protect for 1 attack round of a fight then our distinctiveness means nothing. we are back to bench warmers. What I am looking for is a difinitive answer to our distinct role. answer? tanking... no we are equal to other tanks. answer? protector.. No we are WAY under skilled to protect. answer? DPS is that a joke? In my  opinion there are only three directions sony can take. 1) make us the best tanks so there is no question to who tanks. 2) increase our DPS so we can compete with other DPS and earn equal roles in raids, fight an equal duel, solo an equal level of encounters 3) increase our protection so we can compete with other healing classes in a none tanking role. it seems from the last few updates sony is leaning towards #3. But LU18 is a poor attempt at this. If sony wanted to, they could easily add 2 or 3 abilities to a guardian to make them much more equal as a protector. for example: - Decrease recast time on our protection abilities (guardian sheild for one) - Make intercept spells group wide - add skills to increase group resistance to a level we'd actual resist something. - transfer hitpoints from us to target - transfer mitigation from us to target I could go on but you get the point. <div></div>

[germanicus2112]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Jibantic wrote:<BR>Waz just reading LU13 update notes, and as you can see from this copy under fighter classes:<BR><BR>" - Adjusting spells and combat arts to ensure that damage, healing, and utility are more proportionate among the classes.<BR>-Making spell upgrades more meaningful and satisfying by adding new spells and arts to better fill out character progression and put the emphasis on distinctiveness at the subclass level."<BR><BR>Point one, proportionate  (exhibiting equivalence or correspondence among constituents of an entity or between different entities) damage! Healing! and utility.<BR><BR>Where again was the equivalence of Guardian DPS to Berserker DPS.. I certainly saw a significant jump in Berserker tanking abilities...<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Guardians were vastly overpowered due to buff stacking prior to 13. 13 brought us down to a level commensurate to other tanks. We still have advantages over all the other tanks in terms of tanking (mitigating damage, hp pool) and our short term buffs and protection spells are incredibly useful. Just because there was an imbalance before 13, does not mean that after correcting that imbalance we must somehow be compensated for correcting that previous imbalance by providing us with zerker DPS. This would merely create another imbalance. </FONT></P> <P><BR>Point two, "distinctiveness at the subclass level". Where guardians distinctiveness was toward protection.<BR><BR>Any class that can heal is a better protector then a guardian<BR><BR>Any class that can increase Wis for resists is a better protector than a guardian<BR><BR>Any class that can Mez, Stun, Root is a better protector than a guardian<BR><BR>Where is the distinctiveness of being a guardian... please tell me.. I'd love to hear options....<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>What tank class is able to do anything commensurate with Tower of Stone (read the spell before answering) or Guardian Sphere? It is much better to mitigate damage or completely absorb it rather than rely on another class to heal it, ie Heals dont help when your dead. We take it off the front end. Tower of Stone procs are infinitely better than any heal or even ward.</FONT><BR><BR>We can protect for 1 attack round of a fight then our distinctiveness means nothing. we are back to bench warmers.<BR><BR><BR>What I am looking for is a difinitive answer to our distinct role.<BR><BR>answer? tanking... no we are equal to other tanks. answer? protector.. No we are WAY under skilled to protect. answer? DPS is that a joke?<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Not everyone shares your opinion that we are equivalent compared to other tanks. IMO our protection spells serve their function. I think most of those whom complain over and over again fail to understand how to incorporate all our protection spells into their 'bag of tricks'. Prior to 13 they were much less useful, but now their benefits are quite apparent. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>All this being said, a guardian shouldnt have utility which makes him equivalent in value (in a secondary role) on a raid to other classes primary roles such as healers. Think about what your saying. Why should a guardian, the penultimate defensive class, have a secondary role as strong as that of healers or pure dps classes. Guardians shine as tanks, they also have non-MT value on raids if you understand their arts and how they combine with one another. Are they as useful in most cases as a pure dps or healer in that slot? No. Nor should they be. They are far from useless however. </FONT></P> <P><BR>In my  opinion there are only three directions sony can take.<BR><BR>1) make us the best tanks so there is no question to who tanks.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000> I believe that guards due to their lack of DPS, should effectively be the best in absorbing/mitigating damage. This however is not mutually exclusive from having others tank. We neednt be heads and tails superior compared to all other tanks. The problem is the content doesnt often allow us to use the great majority of our distinctiveness outside a raiding context.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Herein lies what I believe is the central issue for most that are complaining, that has the greatest impact on Guardians current displeasure/dissatisfaction with the state of things. Guardians shine against content that is much higher in level compared to other tanks. The problems lies with the fact that there is now little incentive to take on much higher average level mobs compared to the group's average level. In the past, you were able to get more xp from higher level encounters, but it seems to me that you don't now, or that the time required to kill such encounters makes it more efficient to fight mobs closer in level and kill them more often. This means that for single group encounters, its better NOT to have a guardian as a guardian doesnt do the DPS that all the other tank classes do.  This is a function of a groups desire for maximum efficiency when xp'ing. Why bring along a guardian when you can bring along a zerker/monk/pally/sk/bruiser who can tank the content just as well that most groups are now currently fighting? The incentive in xp groups is no longer in the game mechanics to justify bringing along guardians. Hence guardians have been relegated to a 'Niche role'. Do most of the guardians playing the game ever experience the opportunity to fill that Niche role?(raid tank) I doubt it.</FONT><BR><BR>2) increase our DPS so we can compete with other DPS and earn equal roles in raids, fight an equal duel, solo an equal level of encounters</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I dont think this is the solution. IMO a guardian SHOULD rely on others for DPS and heals, and therefore should be a very poor solo'er.</FONT><BR><BR>3) increase our protection so we can compete with other healing classes in a none tanking role.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>They are in the new patch. Personally I thought they were working fine. Heres a recommendation for guardians who arent the MT on the raid.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>-Goto broker and buy several t2 shields (a handful of silver). Equip them on raid, make a hotbar for them. When raid tank goes below 30% health, cast Intercede (this is across raid for a reason) on MT (instant cast) followed by Tower of Stone. You absord the MT's next hit, and take no damage yourself. This could very well be the buffer needed to get the MT back up before the next large spike (its very possible this combo could have absorbed a huge hit that would have killed the MT). Also try ToS with Guardian Sphere. If you are jousting, make sure you get Hew and Rush off before the pull out. Put non-mt guards with your worst aggro offenders along with troubs if you have them. Assuage is great for keeping an aggro stripper in check. Guardian sphere before an AE can save the raid if your timing is off, and it can absord more than most think, ALL damage, not just physical (same with ToS).</FONT></P> <P><BR>it seems from the last few updates sony is leaning towards #3. But LU18 is a poor attempt at this. If sony wanted to, they could easily add 2 or 3 abilities to a guardian to make them much more equal as a protector. for example:<BR><BR>- Decrease recast time on our protection abilities (guardian sheild for one)<BR>- Make intercept spells group wide<BR>- add skills to increase group resistance to a level we'd actual resist something.<BR>- transfer hitpoints from us to target<BR>- transfer mitigation from us to target<BR><BR>I could go on but you get the point.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000> I recommend you re-evaluate what our current slate of protection spells can do in a raiding context. Tower of Stone, Guardian Sphere, Vigilance, Assuage, Intercede, Plant, Sentry Watch, Sentry all have very useful functionality in a non-MT role on raids.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000> The one thing I would like to see is an upgrade to Intercede as there is no higher level version.</FONT> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></DIV>

[Jibantic]

All good points germanicus, I won't disagree with you since I have very little raiding experience, and I am only up to 56. Your bias leans more towards the level 60 guardians. I tend to think more 55 and below since it is what I have experienced. I'm sure when I hit 60 I will be singing the same tune as others. To the point, all your opinions are based on the fact that a guardian is a raiding/grouping only class. I don't know about you, but I didn't see no warning pre LU13 that a guardian was a GROUP ONLY class. This is a BS bias that needs to stop. post LU13 has been about equality... all I am saying is lets look at other factors of equality. I am by no means saying make guardians gods. How is it fair a ranger can destroy a yellow triple up herioc in 3 seconds, but when a guardian steps in front it is the guardian going down in 3 seconds. I don't see the equality in that. <div></div>

[germanicus2112]

<P>BTW the pally's have started their cries of inequality at us having our protection spells tweaked and them having their amends decreased. I find it mind boggling that they feel they should be completely equivalent to us at tanking every encounter in the game, and still have loads of amazing utility that is useful throughout the level range. </P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=72269" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=72269</A></P>

[Mig]

<blockquote><hr>Jibantic wrote:All good points germanicus, I won't disagree with you since I have very little raiding experience, and I am only up to 56. Your bias leans more towards the level 60 guardians. I tend to think more 55 and below since it is what I have experienced. I'm sure when I hit 60 I will be singing the same tune as others. To the point, all your opinions are based on the fact that a guardian is a raiding/grouping only class. I don't know about you, but I didn't see no warning pre LU13 that a guardian was a GROUP ONLY class. This is a BS bias that needs to stop. post LU13 has been about equality... all I am saying is lets look at other factors of equality. I am by no means saying make guardians gods. How is it fair a ranger can destroy a yellow triple up herioc in 3 seconds, but when a guardian steps in front it is the guardian going down in 3 seconds. I don't see the equality in that. <div></div><hr></blockquote>If you look at guardians from a group/solo/exp perspective, you are correct, we are a cruel joke.

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>germanicus2112 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> <p><font color="#ff0000">Guardians were vastly overpowered due to buff stacking prior to 13. 13 brought us down to a level commensurate to other tanks. We still have advantages over all the other tanks in terms of tanking (mitigating damage, hp pool) and our short term buffs and protection spells are incredibly useful. Just because there was an imbalance before 13, does not mean that after correcting that imbalance we must somehow be compensated for correcting that previous imbalance by providing us with zerker DPS. This would merely create another imbalance. </font></p> </blockquote> <p>The imbalance already exists. Except for a narrow role (tanking high level raids) guardians have no real compensation for the very large difference in DPS between them and berserkers. Of course guardians should not have the same DPS as berzerkers, but either the difference needs to be narrowed or guardians should be boosted in other ways. SOE did do something for that when they added the new offensive stances. I think that was a very good change, but we need a bit more. </p> <blockquote><><font color="#ff0000">What tank class is able to do anything commensurate with Tower of Stone (read the spell before answering) or Guardian Sphere? It is much better to mitigate damage or completely absorb it rather than rely on another class to heal it, ie Heals dont help when your dead. We take it off the front end. Tower of Stone procs are infinitely better than any heal or even ward. </font> <></blockquote> <>Heals and wards exist at my level (39), and work against any type of damage. The  mitigation boost I can give is small, and only protects against physical damage. ToS is something to look forward to, but classes should be balanced to be fun to play throughout their levels.<> <><> <blockquote><><> <p><font color="#ff0000">Not everyone shares your opinion that we are equivalent compared to other tanks. IMO our protection spells serve their function. I think most of those whom complain over and over again fail to understand how to incorporate all our protection spells into their 'bag of tricks'. Prior to 13 they were much less useful, but now their benefits are quite apparent. </font></p></blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">It has been my experience that compared to differences in armour the differences in class abilities are small when it comes to tanking. I am rarely the main tank because I do not have top quality armour.  I harvest hundreds of ores without finding a rare hard metal cluster since T2. The best piece of armour I have ever found was for scouts only.</font> </font></p> <blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0000">All this being said, a guardian shouldnt have utility which makes him equivalent in value (in a secondary role) on a raid to other classes primary roles such as healers. Think about what your saying. Why should a guardian, the penultimate defensive class, have a secondary role as strong as that of healers or pure dps classes. Guardians shine as tanks, they also have non-MT value on raids if you understand their arts and how they combine with one another. Are they as useful in most cases as a pure dps or healer in that slot? No. Nor should they be. They are far from useless however. </font></p> </blockquote> <p>Penultimate means next to the best. Who do you think is the best defensive class? <span>:smileyhappy: </span>Actaully I don't think guardians are anywhere near the best defensive class. My swashbuckler (21) takes far less damage in most fights than my guardian did at that level, and if things go wrong she has a speed buff so can escape more easily. Stealth is a very powerful defensive ability, and so is DPS. If you kill the mobs in a third of the time they only have time to do a third as much damage. Only in a group or raid could guardians be considered to have the best defense overall. </p> <blockquote> <><font color="#ff0000"> I believe that guards due to their lack of DPS, should effectively be the best in absorbing/mitigating damage. This however is not mutually exclusive from having others tank. We neednt be heads and tails superior compared to all other tanks. The problem is the content doesnt often allow us to use the great majority of our distinctiveness outside a raiding context.<span></span></font><></blockquote> <><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">I can't think of a single occurance.</font></font><> <><> <blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0000">Herein lies what I believe is the central issue for most that are complaining, that has the greatest impact on Guardians current displeasure/dissatisfaction with the state of things. Guardians shine against content that is much higher in level compared to other tanks. </font></p></blockquote> <p><font color="#ffffff">That is outside my experience.</font></p> <blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0000">The problems lies with the fact that there is now little incentive to take on much higher average level mobs compared to the group's average level. In the past, you were able to get more xp from higher level encounters, but it seems to me that you don't now, or that the time required to kill such encounters makes it more efficient to fight mobs closer in level and kill them more often. This means that for single group encounters, its better NOT to have a guardian as a guardian doesnt do the DPS that all the other tank classes do.  This is a function of a groups desire for maximum efficiency when xp'ing. Why bring along a guardian when you can bring along a zerker/monk/pally/sk/bruiser who can tank the content just as well that most groups are now currently fighting? The incentive in xp groups is no longer in the game mechanics to justify bringing along guardians. Hence guardians have been relegated to a 'Niche role'. Do most of the guardians playing the game ever experience the opportunity to fill that Niche role?(raid tank) I doubt it.</font></p> </blockquote> <p>That is within my experience and I agree completely.</p> <blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0000">I dont think this is the solution. IMO a guardian SHOULD rely on others for DPS and heals, and therefore should be a very poor solo'er. </font></p></blockquote> <p><font color="#ffffff">I think that is rubbish. Every character should be good enough at soloing for it to be a fun thing to do when you can not find a group.  Whilst a guardian should take longer to kill than berzerker or DPS class, the difference should not be as great as it is. Also guardians ought to have some advantage to compensate for the slowness and the extra adds that tends to bring. I am glad that SOE disagreed with you enough to add the offensive stances and hope for more. </font> </p> <blockquote> <> <font color="#ff0000">They are in the new patch. Personally I thought they were working fine. Heres a recommendation for guardians who arent the MT on the raid. </font><></blockquote> <><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">Have you played a guardian below level 50 since LU13?</font></font><> <><> <blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0000">-Goto broker and buy several t2 shields (a handful of silver). Equip them on raid, make a hotbar for them. When raid tank goes below 30% health, cast Intercede (this is across raid for a reason) on MT (instant cast) followed by Tower of Stone. You absord the MT's next hit, and take no damage yourself. This could very well be the buffer needed to get the MT back up before the next large spike (its very possible this combo could have absorbed a huge hit that would have killed the MT). Also try ToS with Guardian Sphere. If you are jousting, make sure you get Hew and Rush off before the pull out. Put non-mt guards with your worst aggro offenders along with troubs if you have them. Assuage is great for keeping an aggro stripper in check. Guardian sphere before an AE can save the raid if your timing is off, and it can absord more than most think, ALL damage, not just physical (same with ToS). </font></p></blockquote> <><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">Only 19 levels before I become effective - how exciting.</font></font> <font color="#ff0000"> I recommend you re-evaluate what our current slate of protection spells can do in a raiding context. Tower of Stone, Guardian Sphere, Vigilance, Assuage, Intercede, Plant, Sentry Watch, Sentry all have very useful functionality in a non-MT role on raids. <font color="#ffffff">I'd be very surprise if anyone I've used my abilities to protect has ever noticed any benefit. I haven't and I know they are there and look for them when I have time. Anyway raids are rare occurances.</font> </font><> <blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0000"> The one thing I would like to see is an upgrade to Intercede as there is no higher level version.</font> </p> </blockquote> I believe Intercede is an ability that all fighters get. <blockquote><hr> </blockquote> <div><font color="#ff0000"></font></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[germanicus2112]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pjackson wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I dont think this is the solution. IMO a guardian SHOULD rely on others for DPS and heals, and therefore should be a very poor solo'er.<BR></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>I think that is rubbish. Every character should be good enough at soloing for it to be a fun thing to do when you can not find a group.  Whilst a guardian should take longer to kill than berzerker or DPS class, the difference should not be as great as it is. Also guardians ought to have some advantage to compensate for the slowness and the extra adds that tends to bring. I am glad that SOE disagreed with you enough to add the offensive stances and hope for more. </FONT><BR></P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I  disagree with you, and I suppose this is just a fundamental difference of gameplay philosophy. I look at this as a 'McDonaldization' of the game. Players unwilling to take the negatives affiliated with playing a pure class.  I think this destroys the role playing aspect (I dont mean Role playing in the traditional meaning, I mean it in the literal sense). Player classes should be good at doing certain things, and poor at others. Guardians are designed to protect their group. Solo'ing there is no group. People want to play whatever class they want, even one that is obviously focused on NOT being a solo class, and complain that they are unable to do so <EM>as well</EM> as they would like. So people complain and push for dps and aspects which are obviously 180 degrees different from the core functionality of the class, and what happens? The classes all meld together. It pushes all archetypes toward an amalgamation due to the inevitable 'retweaking' of the other classes as a result. </P> <P>In order to have balance of player classes one must measure each class against the others. The classes dont live seperately in a vacuum. We need to look at where we stand on a continuum. Guards are at the end of the spectrum. Least DPS, best defense. For myself, that was clear when reading the description of the class when I chose to play it. <BR></P> <P>I think that guards asking for more and more dps is as silly as paladins asking to tank equivalently (stat/mit wise) as a guardian. It completely ignores the other things we (or the pally) do well (in their case being the various non-tank functions.... heals, wards, rezzes, etc.) If you want to solo well, roll a paladin or sk. They are a class which by design, have the skills needed to effectively achieve this goal. </P> <P>Dont mess up my sandbox <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Etherium]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR> <P></P> <HR> This guy is pretty much right on. Really the only reason to roll a guardian is to tank raids. If your never going to raid, a guardian is the last class you want to play. I'm starting to tank the higher level mobs in DoF. The extra health, taunting while stunned, being able to slow, and buff mitigation against damage spikes gives a slight edge above the other tanks that is easier to see when tanking these encounters. I am having fun now. But honestly I really didn't have much fun leveling my guardian to 60th. We are good choice to tank <EM>hard</EM> raid mobs. Everything else, get another tank. <P>Message Edited by Migyb on <SPAN class=date_text>12-12-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:10 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If this is true and is Sony's vision for a Guardian, they should find a way to tell the poor unsuspecting people that are choosing classes today.  I know I would have liked to know this when I chose my original characters.  (Guardians in solo or small group mode will be mostly irrelevant.)  The vast majority of players do not raid or seldom raid.  In what visioni of equality does limiting a role to raids end up fair? </P>

[Drulak]

<P>what i am complaining about is that not all of us get to raid , a very small porportion in fact and out of the riad scenario , we are very poor fighters we tank equally as well as other fighters against mobs , but if you are fighting non epics we do not have a tanking edge and we have alot lower dps and utility.</P> <P>everyone saying we shouldn't have better dps - why ? - dps = aggro , so why forgo any dps aggro increase , plus in an xp group you want to have your tank add dps as well as tank the mobs , most mobs are not hitting hard enough for you to just concentrate on staying alive , so dps speeds it all up</P> <P>a brawler tanking in an xp grp holding aggro with dps == mobs dieing quicker == more xp</P> <P>pre LU13 we had best mit etc == lower dps - acceptable.  Now it is no longer acceptable.  </P> <P>and why shouldn't i solo almost as well as a brawler ?</P> <p>Message Edited by Drulak on <span class=date_text>12-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:11 PM</span>

[Mig]

<blockquote><P>If this is true and is Sony's vision for a Guardian, they should find a way to tell the poor unsuspecting people that are choosing classes today.  I know I would have liked to know this when I chose my original characters.  (Guardians in solo or small group mode will be mostly irrelevant.)  The vast majority of players do not raid or seldom raid.  In what visioni of equality does limiting a role to raids end up fair? </P> <hr></blockquote>Absolutely. SOE really needs to update their info pages. Go look at WoW's class description. They tell you the strength and weakness of each class, as well as what Role they were intended to play.

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>My book says...<BR>The Guardian is a walking tank, encased in layers of metal and impervious to attack. A defensive juggernaught, the Guardian gains knowledge of the Protection line of abilities, giving him many situational options for keeping his party members alive.  Sentinel the first of these abilities, is perhaps one of the most important, and offers a revealing glimpse at the true purpose of Guardians. This ability allows you to absorb all the damage taken by your target for a short period of time. In fact, the majority of your abilities will be party oriented defensive skills.  You will need to start thinking of yourself as a pre-emptive Priest, rather than offensive damage dealer.<BR><BR>An old guide, an old book, but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that sounds about right.<BR><BR>Shut the Faarbot up if this is the class you do not want to play.<BR><BR>You want to tank and deal damage, make a SK/Brawler.<BR><BR>This is the role of the Guardian, like it or not, its not going to change.</DIV>

[ToonAr]

<DIV>My book says...<BR>The Guardian is a walking tank, encased in layers of metal and impervious to attack. A defensive juggernaught, the Guardian gains knowledge of the Protection line of abilities, giving him many situational options for keeping his party members alive.  Sentinel the first of these abilities, is perhaps one of the most important, and offers a revealing glimpse at the true purpose of Guardians. This ability allows you to absorb all the damage taken by your target for a short period of time. In fact, the majority of your abilities will be party oriented defensive skills.  You will need to start thinking of yourself as a pre-emptive Priest, rather than offensive damage dealer.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I would agree. Sadly the interception line of skills is so ineffective that they are rendered next to useless.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>An old guide, an old book, but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that sounds about right.<BR><BR>Shut the Faarbot up if this is the class you do not want to play.<BR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Happy Holidays to you and your family too! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <DIV><BR>You want to tank and deal damage, make a SK/Brawler.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I would imagine that most guardians on this forum want to do the job as described in the manual. To tank, take damage and be the 'fall guy' for the group. The current mechanics of the game fall short of allowing this. If we can't do what we are supposed to, asking for DPS seems the easier / softer option for the devs to implement.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR>This is the role of the Guardian, like it or not, its not going to change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Too bad that the tools we're given to perform this role adequately aren't up to the task then, isn't it? We read the manual, chose our class and pay our money to play the game as described. Unfortunately it is 'not as described in the brochure' and we would like this to be addressed. Does that sound unreasonable?</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by ToonArmy on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 AM</span>

[Pry]

It's just another game issue.  Instead of getting together to collectively push the game in a direction in which was better, everyone (including Guardians) want to see what they can do in a series of "one overs" to elevate their class structure.  This is probably certainly sending a confusing message to people who do development on what the community as a whole wants.  So, they guess.   When people should be getting together to figure out what's wrong, and how to fix it. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you have money and time (which is really more money) invested in something, you certainly want it to be the best.  Whether it's building a career, or a new house, or tricking out a new car.  Wherever you decide to spend your money and time, you don't want barriers thrown in front of you that ruin it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is systemic of what has happened to EQ2. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It continues today, and will continue as long as my game is lesser than the game you want to play (or visa versa).  SOE as a corporation has to make sensible changes to keep it's playerbase, and instead choose drastic changes that alienate a community.    Nobody can deny the success of World of Warcraft because for the majority the choice is that, or EQ2.  And since EQ2 is a more difficult and time consuming game to play, where as before it was easier, it has established a niche of player who doesn't necessarily need what is good for the community as a whole.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Therfore, more people play WoW, because the alternative is too much like...a job, and not so much like a game.  Even if I'm bored with WoW at 60, it's still better than the alternative to many people.  Added to this that you can start an alt on another side an experience a whole new game, not the same game in a different package.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And until it's understood, until EQ2 realises that it's graphics are superior and can dominate the market by making a user-friendly combat system and reward schema, it won't change.  And so people will look for other stuff, mostly because when someone has a million voices screaming at them, they won't listen.  But you cannot rest on one laurel alone and expect it to carry you through.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians were an easy, fun class to play pre-LU13, and post-LU13 went to a difficult and tedious class to play.  The opposite was true for other classes and why they are keen on keeping the status quo as it is today (and why they post in this forum, despite whatever "good intentions" they claim they have).   And instead of fighting for making Guardians what they were, we settle for things that make the difficulty of playing...us...shine through.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reality is that the XP system is horrid, the reward system is horrid, the quest system is horrid, and the community doesn't know if they are coming or going.   Some people don't want Guardians fixed, and they will fight and claw because one fix to Guardians means a nerf to them.  Until that's changed (which may be never) EQ2 will always be Pepsi, will always lose people, and will always fail.   Why I still maintain that the pre-LU13 game was better.   Fixing Monks, for example, instead of humongous nerfs to classes, fixing encounters instead of nerfing people's abilities to be successful at them, or fixing the game as a whole while keeping its integrity are FTW.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Therefore, Guardians are hoplessly broken beyond repair.  </DIV>

[Colossaltitan]

You can rescue people from death.<BR>You are the best tanks in the game (although some disagree, thats the truth).<BR> <DIV>You can take damage for the group (although it might take MORE than what the base damage would have been if you were taking it, You STLL saved somone by using it).</DIV>

[MrMartin]

<P>OP wanted usfulness in a raid even if he was not MT or MA.</P> <P>How about adding say 20% haste or group haste to our Offensive Stance.<BR>That would increase our DPS quite a bit.</P> <P>Me personally is getting very happy with my Guardian. Especially since last<BR>night I got Taunting Assault and Maddening Defense Master II when I dinged<BR>lvl 44. Now I have 4 taunts + Maddening + Topple Master 1. I should have no<BR>problem at all holding aggro now.<BR>Cant wait to get to lvl 45 and get Deafen.</P> <P>All I need now is 5 Rubys/Rhodium for(In order of importance):<BR>Defensive Stance<BR>Taunting Assault<BR>Deafen<BR>Protect(Is that a T5 or T6 rare?)<BR>Offensive Stance</P> <P>Anyone got cheap rubys for sale? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Hmm, just remembered,<BR>need a couple of more rares for:<BR>Commanding Presence<BR>Wall of Brawn<BR>Return to Battle<BR>Iron Conviction</P> <P>Anyone got uber-cheap rubys for sale? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by MrMartin on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span>

[germanicus2112]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> <DIV>My book says...<BR>The Guardian is a walking tank, encased in layers of metal and impervious to attack. A defensive juggernaught, the Guardian gains knowledge of the Protection line of abilities, giving him many situational options for keeping his party members alive.  Sentinel the first of these abilities, is perhaps one of the most important, and offers a revealing glimpse at the true purpose of Guardians. This ability allows you to absorb all the damage taken by your target for a short period of time. In fact, the majority of your abilities will be party oriented defensive skills.  You will need to start thinking of yourself as a pre-emptive Priest, rather than offensive damage dealer.<BR><BR>An old guide, an old book, but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that sounds about right.<BR><BR>Shut the Faarbot up if this is the class you do not want to play.<BR><BR>You want to tank and deal damage, make a SK/Brawler.<BR><BR>This is the role of the Guardian, like it or not, its not going to change.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly. The sad truth is I doubt even 15% of guardians ever even use their protection line of spells and dont even have them on their hotbar. They do what they say they do and can be very useful. It seems most on these forums however would rather be a zerker.

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> You can rescue people from death.  <FONT color=#ff0000>So can Monks , they get rescue as well , in fact i believe it is a fighter spell and not a Guardian one so every fighter archetype gets it - but even if not all fighters do , its definately monks as my monk has it. (Funnily enough though he has never had to use it , since he holds aggro soo much better than the guardian)<BR></FONT>You are the best tanks in the game (although some disagree, thats the truth).  <FONT color=#ff0000>In a raid group yes , not in a fast xp group we are not.  but you say its the truth , so it must be - even though i am pretty sure SOE now say all fighters are equal tanks , with certain archetypes being slightly better at certain situations.<BR></FONT> <DIV>You can take damage for the group (although it might take MORE than what the base damage would have been if you were taking it, You STLL saved somone by using it).  <FONT color=#ff0000>ooh what a great ability , take 100% damage and make it 125% - then add on the extra damage because it is unmitigated - woot i am awesome.  -  Ooh but one question , doesn't this only work after i have lost aggro , so in order to use these awesome skills , i have to be a bad tank in the first place and loose aggro - hmmmmmmm</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Also Colossal , regarding your first rant up above , PRE LU13 , that was a pretty good description of the guard , yes we pretty much did nothing but take hits and we were [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good at it.  NOW  all fighters can take the hits , all tank equally , so that definition is totally useless.</P> <P>Its like saying you have 4 wheels an engine and a chasis , you are meant to transport people from A to B .  You (the guardian) are a morris minor , you do what it stated so stop moaning.  </P> <P>Even though all the other fighters are Porches , ferraris and jaguars , they also do what our(the guardian) statement says , they just do it better and are more fun to do it with.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly. The sad truth is I doubt even 15% of guardians ever even use their protection line of spells and dont even have them on their hotbar. They do what they say they do and can be very useful. <FONT color=#ff0000>It seems most on these forums however would rather be a zerker</FONT>.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well if i had the choice right now , you are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] right , i would want to be a zerker.  they tank as our equals , yet have more dps - they are guardians with dps , it would be stupid to not want to be one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ask me the same question PRE LU13 and no , i wanted to be a guardian.</DIV>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrMartin wrote:<BR> <P>OP wanted usfulness in a raid even if he was not MT or MA.</P> <P>How about adding say 20% haste or group haste to our Offensive Stance.<BR>That would increase our DPS quite a bit.</P> <P>Me personally is getting very happy with my Guardian. Especially since last<BR>night I got Taunting Assault and Maddening Defense Master II when I dinged<BR>lvl 44. Now I have 4 taunts + Maddening + Topple Master 1. I should have no<BR>problem at all holding aggro now.<BR>Cant wait to get to lvl 45 and get Deafen.</P> <P>All I need now is 5 Rubys/Rhodium for(In order of importance):<BR>Defensive Stance<BR>Taunting Assault<BR>Deafen<BR>Protect(Is that a T5 or T6 rare?)<BR>Offensive Stance</P> <P>Anyone got cheap rubys for sale? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Hmm, just remembered,<BR>need a couple of more rares for:<BR>Commanding Presence<BR>Wall of Brawn<BR>Return to Battle<BR>Iron Conviction</P> <P>Anyone got uber-cheap rubys for sale? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Message Edited by MrMartin on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:34 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Glad you are happy with the guard , but a monk would still pull aggro off of you , even with all of your masters , and without him using a single taunt. </P> <P> But TBH i have never complained about us being bad because of our aggro abilities , even though guards are worst at single aggro and worst at aggro regain and only second best at AE aggro  (details fo tests performed were in a previous post) , that doesn't bother me soo much as long as we can still hold aggro.  Its more the non tanking bits that i think are wrong.<BR></P>

[Kain Hammersmith]

<P>Since people want to post incomplete parts from guides I will also.</P> <P>Original PRIMA guide: "In many ways soloing as a Guardian is the polar opposite of grouping -- in a group the stress level is high and a large proportion of the pressure is on you, but by yourself, combat is a refreshingly simple experiience." And, "You can pull enemies out of dangerous areas with your bow, and you are well equipped to deal with them with your heavy armor and weapons."</P> <P>New DOF PRIMA guide: "You're good at soloing. If you're tired of groups and need some alone time, you're more than capable of going at it alone. your defenses keep you alive as you wear out the enemies."</P> <P>I solo/small group. Sometimes my only healer is a Pally. We did fine before LU13 because I could take the hits and keep going. Now without a true healer I dont survive long. Solo is really difficult now due to the fact that our defense was lowered and HP was lowered. And before anyone says, "well it was so high due to buff stacking," I never knew that it was even possible. When I lvled and got a new buff that was on the same timer, I would remove the old one from my hotbar and forget about it unless I mentored. I have played every fighter archtype except for a SK. I know the pros and cons of each one. Guard was the best class for me before because I could group with my friends and have fun. Now that same group of friends are waiting on me to get my Bruiser up in lvls.</P> <P>I dont think that most Guards want DPS, we wanted to be the best at taking the hits. But since the Devs want equality then we want DPS to make it so. I know how much damage a Pally, Bruiser, Monk, and Beserker can take now. I know the avoiding the hits, or healing the damage recieved is far superior to Miting the damage. And killing things fast will allways be a better way to survive a fight.</P> <P>Guards may be fine in raids, I do not attempt to know. But you have to remember that not all of us raid. There has to be balance across the board and not just with tanking or raiding.</P> <P>And to the person that said, "I you wanted to do DPS you should have rolled a (insert other fighter class here)" and respond by saying, "Than, if you wanted to tank you should have rolled a Guard."  I could not have said it better myself. I will tell my guildmates that tonight to get a good laugh.</P> <P>Also if anyone thinks that this imbalance is only with Guards, or that we only whine because we are not uber anymore. Well I have lost many guildmates due to LU13, a Beserker, Bruiser, Pally, Defiler, Ranger, Necro, Fury, Templar, and others have rolled new toons, or left and come back because they got bored with WOW. I am scared what will happen once all the new games, expansions, and betas open up.</P> <P>Thanks</P>

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>germanicus2112 wrote:<blockquote> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I  disagree with you, and I suppose this is just a fundamental difference of gameplay philosophy. I look at this as a 'McDonaldization' of the game. Players unwilling to take the negatives affiliated with playing a pure class. </p></blockquote> <p>You are looking in the wrong direction. </p> <blockquote> <p>  I think this destroys the role playing aspect (I dont mean Role playing in the traditional meaning, I mean it in the literal sense). </p> </blockquote> <p>The tanking tactic working does far more damage to the role playing aspect. </p> <blockquote> <p>Player classes should be good at doing certain things, and poor at others. </p> </blockquote> <p>I agree. </p> <blockquote> <p>Guardians are designed to protect their group. Solo'ing there is no group. </p> </blockquote> <p>Guardians a subtype of warriors who are a sub-type of figthers.  They are more focussed on protecting the group, but that is not their only ability. They are they the only class, even within fighters, who have abilities designed for protecting groups. They are not especially good at it either. I have never seen anyone ask for a guardian to join a group to protect it . </p> <blockquote> <p>People want to play whatever class they want, even one that is obviously focused on NOT being a solo class, and complain that they are unable to do so <em>as well</em> as they would like. </p> </blockquote> <p>It is not obvious that guardian are not a solo class. </p> <blockquote> <p> So people complain and push for dps and aspects which are obviously 180 degrees different from the core functionality of the class, and what happens? </p> </blockquote> <p>It is obviously not 180 degrees from their core functionality. They don't stop being fighters and warriors at level 20. </p> <blockquote> <p>The classes all meld together. It pushes all archetypes toward an amalgamation due to the inevitable 'retweaking' of the other classes as a result. </p> </blockquote> <p>All fighters have some abilities in common. They vary at how good at doing them they are. Guardians should have less DPS than berzerkers., but I do not think the difference should be as great as it currently is.. </p> <blockquote> <p>In order to have balance of player classes one must measure each class against the others. The classes dont live seperately in a vacuum. We need to look at where we stand on a continuum. Guards are at the end of the spectrum. Least DPS, best defense. For myself, that was clear when reading the description of the class when I chose to play it. </p></blockquote> <p>Less DPS than the other warrior sub-class certainly. The supposedly better defense was why I chose the class. It was not obvious it should be less than other fighters who have other options.  We do not appear to have better defense either. Higher DPS is a form of defense - kill the enemies quicker and they have less chance to harm you. It does not appear that our defensive advantages are enough to compensate, except in raids and possibly some large groups when the tanks DPS has little effect on how fast opponents are killed. </p> <blockquote> <p>I think that guards asking for more and more dps is as silly as paladins asking to tank equivalently (stat/mit wise) as a guardian. It completely ignores the other things we (or the pally) do well (in their case being the various non-tank functions.... heals, wards, rezzes, etc.) If you want to solo well, roll a paladin or sk. They are a class which by design, have the skills needed to effectively achieve this goal. </p></blockquote> <p>We do very little well except in rare situations, though possibly a bit more at very high levels. But we do some common things very badly. </p> <blockquote> <p>Dont mess up my sandbox <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> <p>It's my sandbox too and it is already in a mess. </p> <blockquote><hr></blockquote> </span><div></div>

[Terron]

<span><blockquote><hr>Colossaltitan wrote:<div>My book says...The Guardian is a walking tank, encased in layers of metal and impervious to attack. </div></blockquote> <blockquote><hr></blockquote> </span><span> I'd be happy if that were true. That is what I wanted, but it is not what I got. I once grouped with a berzerker near the entrance to RoV. He would run around gathering a bunch of 4-6 skeles to fight and then destroy them much faster than I could kill one when alone.  If I could have killed one in the time it took him to kill 6 I would have been happier - I accept that  berzerkers have special abilities for fighting groups. Or if I had sufficient defense to take on 6 at  a time and surviive for the several minutes it would taken me to kill them.  But whilst I could handle one safely, two was risky, and against three I would have to run. </span> <div></div>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>When played properly your class shouldn't lose aggro.<BR>Most say Guardians are the only classes capable of tanking mobs like Pedastal of the Sky & Fountain of Life.<BR>Guardians dont tank the best? I'd say they have a *slight* bonus above all other tanks.<BR><BR>And when I said "Rescue people from death" I meant from your Protection skills, not the lvl25 skill: Rescue.<BR><BR>Also, Someone said above "What this person wants is useful ness outside of being ma/mt in a raid."<BR><BR>.........</DIV> <DIV>....<BR>...What useful ness is any fighter outside of being Raid MA/MT?<BR><BR>Little, Very Very Little Utility.<BR><BR>And if I were leading a raid, I wouldn't say HMMM Brawler DPS or... Ranger DPS. You know, since the Brawler wont be tanking.<BR><BR><BR>Think about it.</DIV>