Well things have changed...

[Rah]

<DIV>Well I missed all the angst of the class and decided to come back and beat myself up some more. left just prior to LU13 and I am still trying to get oriented to the mechanics of things again. I will admit that initially I am concerned about 2 things, 1) more other classes post here than guardians and 2) most of the post are very negative in tone (I am assuming the negative feel is justified). With all that said any learning curve advice would be much appreciated!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rahge</DIV> <DIV>50 Guardian, Everfrost</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Drulak]

<P>aye there is alot of negativity - from myself as much as any others - because the guard , while still being a playable character ,is a lot less fun than many other classes.</P> <P>But if you want to perservere , then makesure you get yourself full cobalt and get in a guildwhere you can get alot of groups.  Get Cobalt weapons if you can and as many adept 3's as possible</P> <P>all things are still possible without these , but it will take away some of the angst from being one of the worst classes now (Solo) . But we still can take and hold aggro well.  Make sure you use the new maddening defense line of spells (roots you and generates hate when you are hit)  because without that active it is not easy to hold aggro now.</P> <P> </P> <P>hope that helps.</P>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

Nah, don't let the negativity get you down.  Most of the people that play other classes are trying to be helpful.  I have survived post 13 and you can to.  There is some tweaks that need working on but I think if you stay away from the negitivity of some reoccuring posters you will be ok.

[Raahl]

<P>We have tried to be helpful and constructive, but it seems that Sony either is not listening or does not care.</P> <P>It's hard not to be negative when we hear little from Sony on the issues we are seeing.</P>

[Terron]

I started just after LU13 so do not know what effect it had, but things have got better since then. With the new offensive stances I feel confident soloing blue non-heroics, which was too risk before. On the other hand with my swashbuckler alt, blues seem almost too easy and yellows and whites are my preferred targets. My guardian's armour is poor for his level, for various reasons, but my swashbuckler is not much better equipped. The one piece of fabled armour my guardian has found is for scouts only so it is in my swashbuckler's bank until she is high enough level to use it. <div></div>

[Dart]

<P>First thing you want to do: </P> <P>Clear all yoru current Hotbars, and start from scratch. Re organize your CA hot bars and book. Do this by opening CA book, select organize, organize by catagory and then across. This will help you find the CA's you want to hot key, many of the CA's pre LU13 now share the same timer, so its imperative you relearn all your CA;s. Read the descriptions and re familiarize yourself with all of them. One example is entrench and anchor (totaly changed my old favorite pull spell /ru SOE) but now its a completely different CA.</P> <P>Next I would:</P> <P>harvest harvest harvest... Get T6 gear asap. I tired to go to SS and solo/group with good quality T5 gear and got my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] handed to me. So Go to SS and harvest your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off. You want full t6 armor, and JC if possible. Pickup and Ironwood tower shield and a good one hander, maybe cob two hander for soloing till you can afford duel weilders.</P> <P>Second start off re learning game mechanics solo, then find a friend to go duo with to get a feel for the small group run. Then work your way up to Full groups/instances etc...</P> <P>Things have changed a lot since Lu13, and you are going to need to invest some time relearning your class.  Be patient, stay informed on these boards and try to ignore the flame fests. I wish you luck, and dont forget T6 gear makes a HUGE difference!</P> <P>As far as expansion tasks:</P> <P>Pick a faction in maj and work on it. you can get yourself a second gate spell, which is very handy. Next start working on Carpet quest in Sinking sands, NWish of docks I think, great reward, 40% run speed increase and makes travel much easier. Welp thats about all for now, if I think of other things Ill post em.</P>

[Berek_IronAxe]

<P>I have been staying low but reading the flame wars in the guardian forums but since this thread is at least has some sense of class to it and not alot of SOE hating banter, I would like to give you my experience on the "New" guardian.</P> <P>I am a 57 lvl Dwarven Guardian, combination of T5/T6 Armor and Weapons, 1 piece of Fable -Shield (Recent addition, and thank you Vel for thinking of me when you looted it).  Most of my CA's and Taunts are Adept 1 with the exception of Rescue -Adept 3 and the standard Master Selects we get with levels.   These will change as I make money and harvest a rare or two.  I do not Raid alot or run the instance zones every day.</P> <P>Guardians are still fun but have some tweaks that are needed to make them on level with other fighter classes.  We are not meant to be DPS machines but the shield between the mob and the squishy members of the party-you know who you are. :smileywink:  I have to spam alot of power and taunts to hold when Ice Comet kicks off or that pesky Ranger/Assassin Poison Procs.</P> <P>I agree alot with the weakness of our Taunts  and power consumption on them but with a Monkey Totem and Manastone it can make it a little more bearable.  I seem to take a little more of a beating than normal but I believe that is more due to the fact of  the revamp of the mobs and Epic's/Heroic's revamp - I can handle greens/blues easily, ^^^ of these are troublesome and Adds at that point is very bad.  </P> <P>In Groups I am fine as long as I fight Shield/Weapon and any healer in the group.  I run into group problems when I use our Group shielding and the Mob has AOE attacks-the healers have a hard time keeping up unless Guardian Shield pops Stone skin on me then everything is golden.</P> <P>I have noticed a slight decrease in Group requests early on but I think the dip in invites have evened out and I am back to almost where I was.  Every class has its Flavor of the Month time Rangers/Assassins and Bruisers appear to be the favorites now but that will change as time goes on.   I remember that the Enchanter class was the be all to toon's to run and still desirable in Raid's and most 6 person grps.</P> <P>Now with all that said, you asked for recommendations:  </P> <P>Solo Work:  Patience is #1, you do not have the DPS of a Zerker or Bruiser class so kills come slower and thus the xp.  The typical upgrade of equipment.  You do not need Fabled and Masters -But they do help and wonderful to have.  Make sure all your gear is to your level-anything greyed out dump it and buy or quest for something better.  Get your Attack CA's to at least Adept #1, if you have hit the end of that Combat Line Adept 3 or Master (good luck there-let me know what Mob drops it too).  Manastone and Power/Health Totems for out of combat, Good Food/Drink, and a horse for those times that you need to do a fighting withdrawl ( We never retreat)</P> <P>Group Work:  Alot of the above but remember you are not there for DPS only Aggro management.  If you are expecting to keep up with the DPS machines (you know who you are) then you will hate your class.  Taunts and Stances are where you live here and remember have enough power to throw Rescue out if Aggro breaks.  The rest of the time just keep dinking at the Mobs Hit Points.  The Guardian Sphere can be your best friend or worst nightmare.  If that Stone Skin does not Proc and the Mob has a nasty AOE you are taking the Groups damage.  It will take 2 healers just to keep you standing upright.</P> <P>XP Group:  I recommend a Healer and DPS Class-Wizard, Ranger/Swashie, Assassin.  Maximum XP and Quickly.  The Scout Class can pull Aggro off you if need be to let your healer catch up and then give it back just as easy with a quick taunt on your part.  HO's HO's and HO's in that combination is fantastic and specatular to see.  Same as above manastone and totems to keep your power up for quick pulling.  The only time you have to stop is to take a bio break or rebuff your rings.</P> <P>A little long winded but I hope I helped.  Good Hunting.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Rah]

<DIV>Thanks for the advice I will be sure to incorporate it!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rahge</DIV>

[Pry]

<DIV align=center><FONT face=Century color=#ffcc00 size=7>SONY UNIVERSITY</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT face="Courier New" color=#ff0000 size=5>Berek Ironaxe</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center>Having completed all necessary courses of study and performed original research in Guardianism and fulfilled all other requirements is hereby declared a</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=5>DOCTOR OF GUARDIANISM</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center>and awarded this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=5>DIPLOMA</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center>with all the rights, honours, and privileges pertaining thereto.  To which we the undersigned duly attest this day, December 8, 2005. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=right>John Smedley</DIV> <DIV align=right>Head Nerfer</DIV> <DIV align=left>Baron Von Moorgard</DIV> <DIV align=left>Master of Double Speak</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=right>Faarpostlocker</DIV> <DIV align=right>Locker of Posts</DIV> <DIV align=left>Raijinn Thundersomething</DIV> <DIV align=left>Jr. Locker of Posts.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana>God, you need a degree to understand posts now giving instructions on how to play!!</FONT></DIV>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Raahl wrote:<p>We have tried to be helpful and constructive, but it seems that Sony either is not listening or does not care.</p> <p>It's hard not to be negative when we hear little from Sony on the issues we are seeing.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Aye we have tried with no sucess...Ive been asking myself why that is and i think it has more to do with a fundemantally flawed game design than it does with a specific class like Guardian.  Im afraid its something that is beyond fixing...so we are left with what we have....semi broken classes,  semi broken game and bandaid tweaks every 2 weeks.  I truely feel SOE is lost on what to do with this game....just reading their LU patch notes that have happend since revamp and trying to make some sorta of "vision" sense out of them leaves a bad taste. I think I have moved beyond being negative and just being "accepting" that this is the way it is...THe game IMO is bakwards,  in prior games reaching the level cap was just the beginning of advancing one's characters...in EQ2 reaching the level cap just leaves me with that "Game Over" feeling.  Instead of continuing to express my concernes im just gonna play as it is, help my friends when they ask and hope that the newer games such as DDO breath new life into the MMO genre that SOE is doing its best to kill. </span><div></div>

[Berek_IronAxe]

<P>Well I am not sure what the fanfare is all about Prynn.  He asked for advice, everyone threw out advice but you it seems.  I am not an expert by any means, I can think of several on the guard boards that would classify as experts and I am not one but these are the tricks I use to survive in a class that has changed.  I have also said I find the need for change on some things but that again is something I have no control over, I can post my concerns and suggestions but everyone seems to be on the same sheet of music on the short comings of the revamped Guardian.  </P> <P>I know I come into a Board that is a seething pit of flame wars but I am trying to be a constructive member of this community and stay away from them.</P> <P>My question is if you are so unhappy why not retire your toon or set it aside for a while and try something else.  Or just cancel your account if you hate the change so much.  I just do not get why you have to come into thread on advice and throw that sort of attitude around.</P>

[RPG_Pos]

<P>Berek,</P> <P>IMHO your post gives any fledgling Guardian good advice that will last them quite a while.</P> <P> </P> <P>Zollorhet Ggusolot - lvl 36 Guardian - Kithicor Server</P> <P>Parvati - lvl 41 Conjuror - Kithicor Server</P>

[Gungo]

Don't mind prynn he hasn't played his guard in 2 months but he enjoys harassing people (and thinks he is funny). Its best just to ignore his posts. On the issue at hand yeah guards do fine in groups and such. My biggest gripe is the lack of dps or flavor in guards. Lots of ideas were posted and this is all rehashed info, but nice touch on keeping things upbeat berek.

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Don't mind prynn he hasn't played his guard in 2 months but he enjoys harassing people (and thinks he is funny). Its best just to ignore his posts. On the issue at hand yeah guards do fine in groups and such. My biggest gripe is the lack of dps or flavor in guards. Lots of ideas were posted and this is all rehashed info, but nice touch on keeping things upbeat berek.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gungo plays a fantasy Guardian, and much like those who play fantasy football he actually thinks he's Donovan McNabb.  Take it for what it's worth. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <P>We have tried to be helpful and constructive, but it seems that Sony either is not listening or does not care.</P> <P>It's hard not to be negative when we hear little from Sony on the issues we are seeing.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Aye we have tried with no sucess...Ive been asking myself why that is and i think it has more to do with a fundemantally flawed game design than it does with a specific class like Guardian.  Im afraid its something that is beyond fixing...so we are left with what we have....semi broken classes,  semi broken game and bandaid tweaks every 2 weeks.  I truely feel SOE is lost on what to do with this game....just reading their LU patch notes that have happend since revamp and trying to make some sorta of "vision" sense out of them leaves a bad taste.<BR><BR>I think I have moved beyond being negative and just being "accepting" that this is the way it is...THe game IMO is bakwards,  in prior games reaching the level cap was just the beginning of advancing one's characters...in EQ2 reaching the level cap just leaves me with that "Game Over" feeling.  <BR><BR>Instead of continuing to express my concernes im just gonna play as it is, help my friends when they ask and hope that the newer games such as DDO breath new life into the MMO genre that SOE is doing its best to kill.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You could be correct.    To fix the guardian class may require that Sony fix the game mechanics first.  If that is the case, we probably have a very long wait ahead of us.</P> <P>Oh and "Never give up, never surrender".</P>

[Raahl]

<P>Oh and I find it rather humorous that someone is asking for suggestions for Live Update #18.  You would think that they have enough work on their plate already!</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=34192" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=34192</A></P> <P>[edit] Sony wasn't asking.  Changed post.</P> <p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>12-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 AM</span>

[Rah]

<DIV>Just an update....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have geared myself to accepted tank standards. Full cobalt, fabled shield and cobalt weapons. At 54 I have managed to balance out my resist, and to some degree my stats. I have yet to break back into the raid environment, so I speak only from a group reference. Like two dogs sniffing one another I have inspected most other plate tanks I managed to group with and have come to the conclusion that I am ahead in most categories and can be competitive with others a few levels ahead of me.  My combat abilities consist of masters I have gained through leveling (none dropped or bought), and I have managed to secure adept III, I and apprentice IV. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Profile on Characters under Everfrost server name Rahge guardian 54. Any and all comments would be much appreciated!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre LU 13 it was Sword and Board. Trial and error has brought me to the conclusion that swinging imbued ironwood cudgels in offensive stance, intelligent targeting of CA, forwarding HO's for the MT and the "niche" of Recovery Tank appears to be my lot in life.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Recovery tanking has gained me allot of respect. The MT goes down I can take the damage the unfortunate DPS/Healer has gained and through some skill peel it off and back onto a mitigation tank (A strentgh in recovery opeartions) buying enough time to get the MT back up buffed and ready to peel it back off of me when my Unyielding Will fires off and I take a dirt nap. More often than not I find myself face down staring at a revive box and watching the chat text of everyone else congratulating themselves. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short I understand what "Unsung Hero" now means!  </DIV> <DIV><BR>I am worried because it appears that this is my "niche" or perceived SOE strength (my point of view only). It would appear that it only continues as I level (see Tower of Stone thread).  A suggestion if this is in fact my lot can we get an additional line of text added to our Unyielding Will skill that states the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff33>~Upon death caster has (app) 40,42,45% (adept) 47, 50, 56% (master) 70% chance to suffer no equipment damage.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV><BR>If you do I promise to support every Fanboi post in these threads for ohhh a month!!</DIV> <DIV><BR>In retrospect if appears the very reason I left the game came to be. I wish i could find that first post that filled me with dread it went along the lines of take my damage while I MT Mr. guardian...../e still quivers thinking about it.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Despite it all I did miss my friends and the center stage "A" game mentality it required to drive a tank in EQ2 (although it would appear that this is a debated point atm). I am fortunate enough to have good friends and outstanding players to drag me through content that is second hand to them (Thanks Krysta!). Fortunate enough to find a good guild that is in game content were I find myself. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides self mixed Black and Tans a headset full of alternative rock and 10 days christmas vacation should wipe away most of my class shortcomings. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will admit one thing, It isn't as horrible as I thought it would be and that was a <FONT color=#ff3366>HARD </FONT>thing to admit!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Christmas wish this year for all Guardians would be this MAKE MY DPS BETTER!......oh ya and to find a screenshot of Gaige seething over a guardian tanking a mob he cant! (if that is even a possibility)........./e wave Gaige!</DIV> <DIV><BR>Rahge<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Rahge on <SPAN class=date_text>12-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:38 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rahge on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:45 AM</span>

[SniperKitty]

I play a healer mostly, but have a couple mid-level tanks too.  Since LU13, I've had more fun playing this game than ever.  Even with a guardian as the MT in the group.  Every tank, if properly geared and well played, can fulfill the MT role in a group.  Just last night I was healing a guardian as a warden with a templar in the group too.  We were pulling two groups at a time of the epics in Rujark.  And doing danmed good at it too.  Only person that died was the silly ranger that aggroed an extra group once or twice. Guardians are not gimped as the vocal minority on this forum would have you to believe. <div></div>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>I play a healer mostly, but have a couple mid-level tanks too.  Since LU13, I've had more fun playing this game than ever.  Even with a guardian as the MT in the group.  Every tank, if properly geared and well played, can fulfill the MT role in a group.  Just last night I was healing a guardian as a warden with a templar in the group too.  We were pulling two groups at a time of the epics in Rujark.  And doing danmed good at it too.  Only person that died was the silly ranger that aggroed an extra group once or twice.<BR><BR>Guardians are not gimped as the vocal minority on this forum would have you to believe.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The Guardian was tanking. All fighters tank equally well and could do the same thing. If the groupes had multiple mobs then brawlers could have done better due to 360 avoidance. Guardians are not arguing that we can not tank. We are arguing that we have no other role. Pay attention.

[SniperKitty]

You don't need another role.  Fighter's role is to tank.  I do not get invites into groups with my fighters for their dps.  It sucks.  Even my monks dps sucks.  It really sucks compared to scout/mage dps.  There is zero reason to invite any fighter except as filler, once you have your tank. <div></div>

[Salgo]

<P>How about when soloing?</P> <P>How about utility when soloing?</P> <P>How about utility period?</P> <P>You are partially right about the not needing a second tank. You don't need one and would prefer another DPS class but sometimes there isn't one around and who would get the invite then between the fighter classes LFG? </P> <P> </P>

[SniperKitty]

I don't invite fighters at all really if we already have a tank.  I start sending tells to scouts and mages that are in zones too low for their level and see if they're busy or want a group. <div></div>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>I don't invite fighters at all really if we already have a tank.  I start sending tells to scouts and mages that are in zones too low for their level and see if they're busy or want a group.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I like having another fighter along, especially a paladin. Why? oh maybe because even with all adept3s and masterIs, nothing below adept3, i lose aggro ALOT, ok usually at least once per encounter, and if it is more than one encounter at a time, well if there isnt another fighter present to help lock things down people are gonna die, period. Usually the healer first. Maybe it isnt that way for the fighters you group with, it is obvious you are NOT grouping with Guardians much, but that is how the ball bounces in Guardian land. </P> <P>The groups you build are pretty much doomed to wipes because you have no backup tank, i group with a paladin alot from my guild, he insists i be the main tank in our groups because he knows i have no other function, whilst he can heal, ward etc..... But when the crap hits the fan he usually saves the day by helping lock the encounter down and keeping the healers from dieing, something i am pretty inadequate at, due to RESISTS. Dont talk crap to me about what other fighters can do especially paladins cause i see what they can do every single day.</P>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffff00">Aethane wrote:</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><p><font color="#ffff00">I like having another fighter along, especially a paladin. Why? oh maybe because even with all adept3s and masterIs, nothing below adept3, i lose aggro ALOT, ok usually at least once per encounter, and if it is more than one encounter at a time, well if there isnt another fighter present to help lock things down people are gonna die, period. Usually the healer first. Maybe it isnt that way for the fighters you group with, it is obvious you are NOT grouping with Guardians much, but that is how the ball bounces in Guardian land.</font></p><hr><p>Bullcrap.  I group with guardians frequently.  You just can't tank.  You suck at it.  It's obvious to me if you're losing aggro, you suck.  Especially if you have all these adept3 and master1 ca's you claim.  I am the healer.  I can spam heals and nukes and snares and roots and never take aggro from a good fighter.  Someone who knows what they're doing.  And that includes guardians.  They taunt just as well as any other fighter if they know what they're doing.</p><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ffff00">The groups you build are pretty much doomed to wipes because you have no backup tank, i group with a paladin alot from my guild, he insists i be the main tank in our groups because he knows i have no other function, whilst he can heal, ward etc..... But when the crap hits the fan he usually saves the day by helping lock the encounter down and keeping the healers from dieing, something i am pretty inadequate at, due to RESISTS. Dont talk crap to me about what other fighters can do especially paladins cause i see what they can do every single day.</font></p><div></div><hr>Funny, groups I build very rarely wipe.  Take my runnyeye example I've posted about.  Lvl 35 Pally, 33 Fury, 39 Warlock, 39 Warlock, 36 Illusionist, and 34 Necromancer.  No back up tank.  I pulled an oculus wizard (38^^^ heroic).  We had the mob at 80% when two more eyeballs (a defiler and charmer) decided to join us.  We killed the wizard, the defiler killed me, the illusionist stunned/mezzed the charmer, while the fury rezzed me and the necro's dps pet took one for the team while I got healed and rebuffed.   I took back aggro.  Finished off the defiler and then we killed the charmer.If you have people that work well together and here's the key... KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING... you don't wipe and can often save the group where lesser players would have perished.  Tough fights are much more fun than breezing through fights with so little challenge it's utterly boring.  Now... let's look at my zerker.  Lvl 26.  Deep in Stormhold.  Fighting cavaliers and crusaders.  We get an overpull.  Again, I'm the only tank in the group since I don't invite other tanks unless there's absolutely no one else.I hit the taunt button, forgetting how close the ^^^ cav is to the group of four no-arrow cavs.  We get all for of them, plus the other ^^^ when the ranger fell down the stairs and ran back up.  I don't have all them fancy heals or wards (which ironically are too slow casting to save a healer -- I use rescue/loh for that).  But I keep aggro by switching targets, hitting an ca, switch, ca, switch, ca, taunt, group taunt, and so on and so forth.  I'm gonna make an assumption here and assume you're one of those lazy tanks that picks one target, taunts and attacks it til it's dead and then switches to a new target.  If my assumption is correct, you suck.  That's why you lose aggro.There's a term everyone needs to learn, MAIN ASSIST.  Select a dps class in the group and they are the main assist.  They choose which mob to kill first so the tank can focus on just maintaining aggro.  That is their sole job.</blockquote></span><div></div>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>Aethane wrote:</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I like having another fighter along, especially a paladin. Why? oh maybe because even with all adept3s and masterIs, nothing below adept3, i lose aggro ALOT, ok usually at least once per encounter, and if it is more than one encounter at a time, well if there isnt another fighter present to help lock things down people are gonna die, period. Usually the healer first. Maybe it isnt that way for the fighters you group with, it is obvious you are NOT grouping with Guardians much, but that is how the ball bounces in Guardian land.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> <P>Bullcrap.  I group with guardians frequently.  You just can't tank.  You suck at it.<FONT color=#66ffff>Yeah its all my fault mu taunts are resisted and people get aggro, my bad, ya know I must have created that design flaw just to give myself stress</FONT>.  It's obvious to me if you're losing aggro, you suck.  Especially if you have all these adept3 and master1 ca's you claim.  I am the healer.  I can spam heals and nukes and snares and roots and never take aggro from a good fighter<FONT color=#33ccff>.Did i say it was the healer getting aggro? Because it usually isnt, they are usually nowhere near the top of the hate list. </FONT> Someone who knows what they're doing.  And that includes guardians.  They taunt just as well as any other fighter if they know what they're doing.<FONT color=#33ccff> I can spam every single taunt i have, and yes they are ALL adept3 or master and still be resisted by over 90% of my taunts this is FACT, and if they are resisted,Cazel's for instance is a zone of particular note for this happening due to the level of the npcs you are fighting, You can't dispute it, it is FACT. But i forgot, there is some special Knowledge i must possess when pressing taunt keys, i should stroke the keys with style and remember all that sniperdummy tells me, because there is a mystical special way to press that taunt key. Bottom line, you are full of crap. Sure if it is yellow or under i usually do ok, less resists, as long as the dps dont get carried away. But on anything over 60 and yes there is plenty of content over 60 that ISN'T epic, i get mad resists and i always lose aggro, there is no special skill that will prevent it, you cannot lock aggro if you have no means to do so.<BR></FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The groups you build are pretty much doomed to wipes because you have no backup tank, i group with a paladin alot from my guild, he insists i be the main tank in our groups because he knows i have no other function, whilst he can heal, ward etc..... But when the crap hits the fan he usually saves the day by helping lock the encounter down and keeping the healers from dieing, something i am pretty inadequate at, due to RESISTS. Dont talk crap to me about what other fighters can do especially paladins cause i see what they can do every single day.</FONT></P> <HR> Funny, groups I build very rarely wipe.  Take my runnyeye example I've posted about.  Lvl 35 Pally, 33 Fury, 39 Warlock, 39 Warlock, 36 Illusionist, and 34 Necromancer.  No back up tank.  I pulled an oculus wizard (38^^^ heroic).  We had the mob at 80% when two more eyeballs (a defiler and charmer) decided to join us.  We killed the wizard, the defiler killed me, the illusionist stunned/mezzed the charmer, while the fury rezzed me and the necro's dps pet took one for the team while I got healed and rebuffed.   I took back aggro.  Finished off the defiler and then we killed the charmer. <FONT color=#33ccff>This isn't the game i play, i play the 55 plus game where resists are common and regular, i could xp all day on blues and have no issues, but then a ranger can tank that stuff, even solo it, thereby making having a guardian along pointless. If it is hard enough content to need a guardian then it is guaranteed your taunts will be resisted and you WILL lose aggro alot. this just shows your utter and complete lack of knowledge about the guardian class.<BR><BR></FONT>If you have people that work well together and here's the key... KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING... you don't wipe and can often save the group where lesser players would have perished.  Tough fights are much more fun than breezing through fights with so little challenge it's utterly boring.  Now... let's look at my zerker.  Lvl 26.  Deep in Stormhold.  Fighting cavaliers and crusaders.  We get an overpull.  Again, I'm the only tank in the group since I don't invite other tanks unless there's absolutely no one else. <FONT color=#3399ff>Having my taunts resisted near 100% of the time isnt challenge, it's stupid.<BR></FONT><BR>I hit the taunt button, forgetting how close the ^^^ cav is to the group of four no-arrow cavs.  We get all for of them, plus the other ^^^ when the ranger fell down the stairs and ran back up.  I don't have all them fancy heals or wards (which ironically are too slow casting to save a healer -- I use rescue/loh for that).  But I keep aggro by switching targets, hitting an ca, switch, ca, switch, ca, taunt, group taunt, and so on and so forth.  I'm gonna make an assumption here and assume you're one of those lazy tanks that picks one target, taunts and attacks it til it's dead and then switches to a new target.  If my assumption is correct, you suck.  That's why you lose aggro. <FONT color=#3399ff>Wrong again i dont lose aggro on the npcs i am not targeting it is usually the ones i am currently targeting, MY aoe abilties to gain aggro are pretty good, good for anything yellow and under, if it is above 60 yes i will get resists and lose aggro, but again that must be all my fault that this design flaw exists and therefore makes me an unskilled player....<BR></FONT><BR>There's a term everyone needs to learn, MAIN ASSIST.  Select a dps class in the group and they are the main assist.  They choose which mob to kill first so the tank can focus on just maintaining aggro.  That is their sole job.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SniperKitty]

There's your problem.  You're expecting to be able to tank orange con mobs as easily as you do anything else.  That is where you are absolutely 100% wrong.  Orange mobs are supposed to only be attempted by the very, very skilled and very well geared.  Obviously you lack the skill. <div></div>

[EasternKing]

<P>Snipperkitty u are probably the biggest most uneducated [Removed for Content] ive seen post on these boards, </P> <P>i see u didnt reply to my post completely destroying ur pathectic having a guard off tank and use intercepts to lessen the healers load of BS u posted </P> <P>and since when is fighing over 60 an orange con ?</P> <P>anything 61-64 is yellow and will resist roughly 50% of all taunts for anyclass but other fighters can overcome this better than a guardian because they have better dps. there is NO skill involved in maintaing aggro its a mechanic and one they changed so it only works some of the time instead off all of the time like it used to work. </P> <P>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>Orange mobs are supposed to only be attempted by the very, very skilled and very well geared.  Obviously you lack the skill.</P> <P>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR></P> <P>again u show your complete and utter lack of knowlage orange con mobs COMPLETELY IGNORE your gear they ignore resists avoidence and mitigation anyone can tank orange cons if they have enough hps, and once again no skill is involved cos u get about a 75% resist rate on taunts </P> <P>please do us all a favour and go post this BS and ur unwanted uneducated opinions somewhere else  </P> <p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>12-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 AM</span>

[Ladicav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>SniperKitty wrote:<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are a complete and utter tool. You compare the taunting abilities of a Paladin to that of a Guardian and because the Guardian fails to achieve the agro lock that Paladins get in both single target and multi mob encounters then the Guardian must suck?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you OUT OF YOUR FREAKING MIND? You are not only a tool, you are completely and utterly clueless, arrogant and rude. Paladins are the either near the best or actually ARE the best, read it and understand, at both single target agro and multi mob encounters. Guardians come in about second last on single encounter agro generation and about 2nd or 3rd on multi mob encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, get an education before you come here drivelling both misinformation and also uninformed opinions but then putting it all in wonderfully long posts about how you asbolutely have to be correct because your level 35 Paladin can do it and we all suck ha ha and expect us to believe it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Roll a Guardian and play the bloody thing instead of trolling all the boards on the site, creating half baked assumptions that you have NO BASIS for extracting from and then maybe I/we might give you a thin slice of credit for absolutely anything you write because reading through your posts, you have to be one of the dumbest most uninformed and clueless forum authors I've ever come across.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class=date_text>12-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:55 PM</span>

[SniperKitty]

My basis for my point of view, Ladicav, comes from playing three different types of healers and three different types of tanks throughout various levels.  I think I know what I'm talking about.  Especially as a high level healer (53) who groups with guardians quite frequently.  Somehow it's only the morons that whine and gripe and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and moan on this forum that have aggro problems. The tanks in my groups very rarely lose aggro.  So in my experience with the mid game and end game, tanks are doing just fine.  It's only you [Removed for Content] here that keep whining about it and in my opinion, it means you must absolutely suck at playing a tank.  Go play another class or better yet, another game you morons.  Since you suck so bad at this one. <div></div>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>Funny, groups I build very rarely wipe.  Take my runnyeye example I've posted about.  Lvl 35 Pally, 33 Fury, 39 Warlock, 39 Warlock, 36 Illusionist, and 34 Necromancer.  No back up tank.  I pulled an oculus wizard (38^^^ heroic).  We had the mob at 80% when two more eyeballs (a defiler and charmer) decided to join us.  We killed the wizard, the defiler killed me, the illusionist stunned/mezzed the charmer, while the fury rezzed me and the necro's dps pet took one for the team while I got healed and rebuffed.   I took back aggro.  Finished off the defiler and then we killed the charmer.<BR><BR>If you have people that work well together and here's the key... KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING... you don't wipe and can often save the group where lesser players would have perished.  Tough fights are much more fun than breezing through fights with so little challenge it's utterly boring.  Now... let's look at my zerker.  Lvl 26.  Deep in Stormhold.  Fighting cavaliers and crusaders.  We get an overpull.  Again, I'm the only tank in the group since I don't invite other tanks unless there's absolutely no one else.<BR><BR>I hit the taunt button, forgetting how close the ^^^ cav is to the group of four no-arrow cavs.  We get all for of them, plus the other ^^^ when the ranger fell down the stairs and ran back up.  I don't have all them fancy heals or wards (which ironically are too slow casting to save a healer -- I use rescue/loh for that).  But I keep aggro by switching targets, hitting an ca, switch, ca, switch, ca, taunt, group taunt, and so on and so forth.  I'm gonna make an assumption here and assume you're one of those lazy tanks that picks one target, taunts and attacks it til it's dead and then switches to a new target.  If my assumption is correct, you suck.  That's why you lose aggro.<BR><BR>There's a term everyone needs to learn, MAIN ASSIST.  Select a dps class in the group and they are the main assist.  They choose which mob to kill first so the tank can focus on just maintaining aggro.  That is their sole job.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The only reason you surived YOUR bad pull was the chanter, not your awesome godly tanking skills... lol  Also, healers dont need to heal as much with a chanter in group, therefore limiting healer aggro.  Your comparison is HIGHLY subjective and doesnt represent a majority of the game or groups, nor does it represent aggro ability among fighters.  Go fight orange heroic ^^^ mobs without a chanter and a gard tanking, it can be done but aggro managment is much more difficult.  Pallys get aggro from just standing there with amends on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway pallys have best aggro in the game, never pulled aggro off a pally with either my necro or warden.  Gards are easier to pull aggro off of, I have to manage my dps/healing with a gard tanking.  Usally waiting a 3-5 seconds into fight will do it, I cant start dumping damage like I can with a pally.   Are gards equal, NO, capable, YES, but not the same as other fighters.  Not sure if gards hold the top spot in any fighter ability right now.  DPS, nope... Utility, nope, except high end content, solo and small group utility is close to ZERO... Aggro, debatable but not number uno IMO...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But please keep telling all the guardians how much they suck and give them your expert tips, Im sure they enjoy it.  lol</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>12-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 AM</span>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffff00">Nibblar wrote:</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><div><font color="#ffff00">The only reason you surived YOUR bad pull was the chanter, not your awesome godly tanking skills... lol  Also, healers dont need to heal as much with a chanter in group, therefore limiting healer aggro.  Your comparison is HIGHLY subjective and doesnt represent a majority of the game or groups, nor does it represent aggro ability among fighters.  Go fight orange heroic ^^^ mobs without a chanter and a gard tanking, it can be done but aggro managment is much more difficult.  Pallys get aggro from just standing there with amends on.</font><hr>The illusionist in the Runnyeye example was not charming the mobs nor were they mezzing the mobs, until I died.  Not with me using AE attacks along with the warlocks.  They were using stuns and stifles and what nukes/dots they have.  And yes, the Amends line is nice.  I have fought without using it before and didn't notice much of a difference though.  I've forgotten to re-cast my hate stealer when the person I had it cast on went LD or left the group and we invite someone new.  I run such fast paced groups I don't stop to think about some stuff and just go go go.  Funny how people always enjoy my groups and tell me so after we break for the evening.</div><div> </div><div><hr><font color="#ffff00">Anyway pallys have best aggro in the game, never pulled aggro off a pally with either my necro or warden.  Gards are easier to pull aggro off of, I have to manage my dps/healing with a gard tanking.  Usally waiting a 3-5 seconds into fight will do it, I cant start dumping damage like I can with a pally.   Are gards equal, NO, capable, YES, but not the same as other fighters.  Not sure if gards hold the top spot in any fighter ability right now.  DPS, nope... Utility, nope, except high end content, solo and small group utility is close to ZERO... Aggro, debatable but not number uno IMO...</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"> </font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">But please keep telling all the guardians how much they suck and give them your expert tips, Im sure they enjoy it.  lol</font></div><hr>Gues you haven't read my other posts where I as a healer (lvl 53 warden) have dumped spells one after another, including buffs like duststorm, which do create hate as well.  I've healed guardians going against multiple encounters, with me dropping both my single target heals, both my group heals (regen and direct), along with an instant heal or two because they all smacked him around down to 25%'ish health.  And I didn't draw any aggro.  Kept casting that way with adds and still no aggro.  The only time I get aggro in a fight is when I'm the one that got the first aggro (like having something spawn on top of me).I'm not saying guardians suck at all.  Just the morons that are whining on this forum.  Because the people that are actually playing the game aren't complaining and do dammed good at maintaining aggro.  The one time I saw the guardian lose aggro was because the ranger was dropping Stream of Arrows on the pull without their hate reducer active.  The ranger realized this after a couple times and put on his hate reducer and ta da.... no more lost aggro.  So due to Occam's Razor, I must come to the conclusion that...A. The people I group with regularly are like gods of this game.  The best gear and skill and knowledge of anyone.or the simplest option...B. The people whining here just suck.I'll option B for 200 Alex.</blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by SniperKitty on <span class=date_text>12-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:09 PM</span>

[Rendoir]

<DIV>With your attitude sniperkitty I'm surprised yoiu know anything about grouping whatsoever because if I ever had some rude obnoxious mouth like you join my grp you would be booted forthwith, rather no healer than an attitude like yours thanks..</DIV>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffff00">Rendoir wrote:</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><div><font color="#ffff00">With your attitude sniperkitty I'm surprised yoiu know anything about grouping whatsoever because if I ever had some rude obnoxious mouth like you join my grp you would be booted forthwith, rather no healer than an attitude like yours thanks..</font></div><hr>*laughs* I am a rude, crass individual.  Forthright and very blunt.  People like me for those traits.  I do exactly what I say I'll do and say what I mean.  I don't bandy words about like some of the cowards on this very forum.  You don't like it, tough.  I'll still get groups and I'll still have people that join groups I start.  People know me for my skill.  They know me for the groups I run.  They know me for who I am.  Not what I say on these forums.My attitude is that y'all are a bunch of crybabies that don't know how to play your class properly since every day I see guardians LFG and getting groups and holding aggro and tanking just fine.  That leads me to wonder why it is that only a few individuals on this forum are such whiny wusses.  Occam's Razor.  The simplest answer, the simplest solution, is likely the right one.Y'all just suck and need to re-roll.</blockquote></span><div></div>

[Ladicav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>My basis for my point of view, Ladicav, comes from playing three different types of healers and three different types of tanks throughout various levels.  I think I know what I'm talking about.  Especially as a high level healer (53) who groups with guardians quite frequently.  Somehow it's only the morons that whine and gripe and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and moan on this forum that have aggro problems.<BR><BR>The tanks in my groups very rarely lose aggro.  So in my experience with the mid game and end game, tanks are doing just fine.  It's only you [Removed for Content] here that keep whining about it and in my opinion, it means you must absolutely suck at playing a tank.  Go play another class or better yet, another game you morons.  Since you suck so bad at this one.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Doesn't really matter how you twist it. I think most people here agree you are still a tool. </P> <P>I don't mind people who don't bandy words and get straight to the point, if they actually have something to SAY. But in your case, don't really care how you try to justify it, since your posts are full of misinformation and fallacies. Considering your consider yourself soooooo well rounded in the game, I find it hard to believe you played this many chars and one to 53 without even knowing the basics of some of the trash you post and try to pass it off as fact. You really have no clue and yet you still try to pass off your wisdom. You also don't respond to the facts in point. I pointed out that Paladins are agro machines, you counter by calling us all morons. So I rest my case.</P> <P>I also noticed out of all these wonderful tanks you play, you somehow prudently ommitted to play a Guardian. How convenient.</P> <P>None of us need to reroll and none of us actually care what YOU think. </P> <DIV>Thank you drive through.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class=date_text>12-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:21 PM</span>

[Ladicav]

<P></P> <HR> <P>SniperKitty wrote:</P> <P>Sage, just shut the frak up. Our highest level character is not what we are. Yes, I play a vareity of classes. That gives me a better and more informed opinion than yours. Especially about monks considering I have to heal monks that tank when I play my warden. You play a bruiser. Go troll around the bruiser forums or the brawler forums. Not the monk forums.</P> <P></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>ROTFL. You have a more informed opinion and thus that makes you *gasp* better than him!? LOL That is so funny, considering you don't even know the basics. I also notice you tell him to stay out of the Monk forums *gasp*. How hypocritical, since what the hell are you doing HERE. You play a tool, go troll around on the tool forums.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are hundreds more like this, I could go on all day. It's a shame the people over at the monk forums think you are an uninformed tool also, but I'm also not very surprised somehow.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Ladicav on <SPAN class=date_text>12-26-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:47 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class=date_text>12-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:47 PM</span>