A Question to the Brawlers...

[Wasuna]

<DIV>Gungo wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do i think bruisers soloing blue heroics is game breaking ... nope</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians in general can not solo a blue heroic. That means atleast Bruisers and Guardians are not equal. Well, equal is equal and if we are not equal then we are not equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That brings up the question. <U>What do Brawlers think Guadians should do better than Brawlers</U>? The Options are:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Tanking</LI> <LI>DPS</LI> <LI>Utility</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can throw all kinds of subcatagories you want but it all waters down to these three areas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since it's obvious that other fighters can do things Guardians can not. What do these other fighters think a Guardian should do better than them?</DIV>

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wasuna wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gungo wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do i think bruisers soloing blue heroics is game breaking ... nope</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians in general can not solo a blue heroic. That means atleast Bruisers and Guardians are not equal. Well, equal is equal and if we are not equal then we are not equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That brings up the question. <U>What do Brawlers think Guadians should do better than Brawlers</U>? The Options are:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Tanking</LI> <LI>DPS</LI> <LI>Utility</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can throw all kinds of subcatagories you want but it all waters down to these three areas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since it's obvious that other fighters can do things Guardians can not. What do these other fighters think a Guardian should do better than them?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think guardians should have a better shot at getting into Vanguard Beta <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gungo]

<DIV>There must be a small reading comprehension wasuna because clearly anyone who actually reads what i posted can see the rest of my post which you subjectively edited. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>"do i think guards need a better offesnive stance for soloing.. yup"</P> <P>Maybe thats not clear enuff for you. Maybe i need to say Offensive stance needs to have more attributable DPS. Did i say brawler soloing compared to gards is EQUAL... let me see.. Nope i didn't in fact i said brawlers solo better then guards. The fact is you don't comprehend the argument. </P> <P>Well you asked me a question and i will happily supply an answer. What do i think guards should be better at compared to a brawler? Tanking melee mobs and multiple target agro and useful group protection utility (whereas zerker have more aoe dps). What do i think brawlers should be better at compared to gaurds. DPS, single target agro, and solo utility. Now this is not to say guards should be pre-LU13 tanking. On the contrary tanking atm from gaurds to brawlers is balanced. Guards are slightly better tanks atm although they do need a bit more DPS, especially when in offense stance. </P> <P>Edit- btw gaurd have reported soloing blue heroic although its adversly harder for a gaurd.</P></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:43 PM</span>

[Skha]

You tank better and have better buffs <div></div>

[Veshtan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skharr wrote:<BR>You tank better and have better buffs<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Is this what we should be best at?  *scratches head* Most brawlers wouldn't like this...it would put us back at LU13 status, not something they want.  At least for the tanking better part.</P> <P>As to better buffs.  This IS what i think we should be best at.   If we're not going to get DPS, then we need to have this to make up for it.  I really don't care which we get.  DPS would make it easier to solo(very good in my book), but i don't think SOE sees us as a viable solo class, they want us to group, so i see the need for some serious tweaks to our utility spells to make them more useful, more often.</P> <P>Just my two coppers.</P>

[Skha]

I wasn't saying what you should be the best at, I just said what you are the best at already. <div></div>

[Wli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skharr wrote:<BR>I wasn't saying what you should be the best at, I just said what you are the best at already.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do you play a high level guardian ?

[JudyJudy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do i think guards should be better at compared to a brawler? Tanking melee mobs and multiple target agro and useful group protection utility (whereas zerker have more aoe dps). What do i think brawlers should be better at compared to gaurds. DPS, single target agro, and solo utility. </DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>I usually don't respond to threads such as these, but seeing as though my brethren and myself have been called out, I felt it necessary to support Gungo's thoughts on how the classes should progress.  I agree completely with the above statements - including the need for a DPS increase for guardians.  Perhaps a change in your offensive stance would solve this?</EM></P> <P><EM>Just my 2cp...</EM><BR></P>

[Veshtan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wlian wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skharr wrote:<BR>I wasn't saying what you should be the best at, I just said what you are the best at already.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do you play a high level guardian ? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>After that response of his....i think we probably already know the answer to that question :smileyvery-happy:<BR>

[Gungo]

I play a high level guard and i agree with him fact is you do tank better and have better buffs. Now the usefulness and margin of those compared to the same for brawlers DPS is why much crying happens on these boards.

[Gungo]

In fact high lvl guards and high lvl brawlers are more balanced then pre 50 guards compared to pre 50 brawlers.

[Veshtan]

<DIV>I emphatically disagree that we have better buffs.  We do tank better, i think. (But only by a small margin, really) Though that leads to my other complaint that to tank better,we have to be outfitted in the best plate money can buy...something not many of us have the money, or the time, to be able to get.  In most given situations, i think any fighter can tank a mob...(raids not be most situations, of course)..which i think is what SOE was looking for...fine.  I just want them to work at bringing that same kind of balance into the other areas of the game.</DIV>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>Wlian wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Skharr wrote:I wasn't saying what you should be the best at, I just said what you are the best at already. <hr> </blockquote>Do you play a high level guardian ? <hr></blockquote>I don't need to.   This is what Bashm wrote: </span> <div>"I can't believe people still even question whether a Guardian main tanks a raid mob now.</div> <div> </div> <div>In terms of raid tanking Guardian is still the best option. For single group tanking I would place Guardian dead last of the tank classes tho unless your group likes fighting reds and high org" =) </div> <div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>veshtan ok so you don't think you have better buffs.. What then persay buffs do brawlers have that is superior here. I cna name 1 group buff both monk and bruisers have (offensive) and 1 single target avoid buff. both of which a gaurd has AND the guards has even more group buffs then this. not gettign into semantics abotu this again since i had listed all buffs before BUT i can name mitgation and HP buffs that guards have moreso then brawlers to name a few. Maybe its better to say brawlers have worse buffs then guards. </P> <P>Btw many guards complain about thier offensive buff, BUT the truth is while tanking (a fighters main role) the gaurds offensive buff is the best buff to counteract the negative stats of defensive stance.) Fact is while tanking yellow or orange con mobs i tend to miss alot because of the defensive negative stats. when i switch to offensive/mixed stance i am able to actually land hits (which coincidentalliy is the main way i hold agro). The gaurds skill increasing offensive stance is in my opinion the best tanking offensive buff, because +dps or + haste does very little if you can't land a hit in defensive stance. although while in offensive stance it does seem not to have as much of an impact as +dps or +haste. And there does seem to be a limit of how much benefit +to skills buff will add. So coincidentally your offensive buff is better for you while tanking IMHO whereas +dps/+haste is better for offensive. </P> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Infact unless i am tanking a very hard hitting mob or have a warden in group. I am genrally tanking w adept 3 mixed stanced simple because i can't hit/hold agro vs high yellow/orange mobs.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:26 AM</span>

[Veshtan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>veshtan ok so you don't think you have better buffs.. What then persay buffs do brawlers have that is superior here. I cna name 1 group buff both monk and bruisers have (offensive) and 1 single target avoid buff. both of which a gaurd has AND the guards has even more group buffs then this. not gettign into semantics abotu this again since i had listed all buffs before BUT i can name mitgation and HP buffs that guards have moreso then brawlers to name a few. Maybe its better to say brawlers have worse buffs then guards. </P> <P>Btw many guards complain about thier offensive buff, BUT the truth is while tanking (a fighters main role) the gaurds offensive buff is the best buff to counteract the negative stats of defensive stance.) Fact is while tanking yellow or orange con mobs i tend to miss alot because of the defensive negative stats. when i switch to offensive/mixed stance i am able to actually land hits (which coincidentalliy is the main way i hold agro). The gaurds skill increasing offensive stance is in my opinion the best tanking offensive buff, because +dps or + haste does very little if you can't land a hit in defensive stance. although while in offensive stance it does seem not to have as much of an impact as +dps or +haste. And there does seem to be a limit of how much benefit +to skills buff will add. So coincidentally your offensive buff is better for you while tanking IMHO whereas +dps/+haste is better for offensive. </P> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00>Infact unless i am tanking a very hard hitting mob or have a warden in group. I am genrally tanking w adept 3 mixed stanced simple because i can't hit/hold agro vs high yellow/orange mobs.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:26 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And Guards don't have this same problem?  Against yellow cons, my taunts get resisted about 50% of the time, against oranges it's almost all the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to better buffs.  I must say i don't know what better buffs you have (My monk isn't that high..yet), i'm simply speaking from the usefulness that i get out of my buffs.  Perhaps to say that you guys have better buffs isn't fair...you DO have better utility.  Most of our buffs are useful ONLY for when things go wrong.  We are supposedly the safest tank, after all.  Think on this, Gungo.  If you have a wizard getting beat on with their paper armor....how much does our supposedly better buffs keep them alive?   The little bit of mitigation or defense or hp's that all of our group buffs can add isn't going to be enough when they are so sadly lacking to begin with.  (speaking from experience on this..i duo with my wife and she plays  a wizard)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to our complaint about our offensive buff and defensive stance...guess what...just like you, i miss a ton when tanking those very same mobs...so if it helps...it's such a miniscule amount as to be completely negligible and not worth mentioning.  I will say this, though...your group haste buff mixed with our offensive buff probably makes a very good combination.  I don't know how much it would actually help in practice...yellows seem to be much harder to hit lately, but it would have to help.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <DIV>"And Guards don't have this same problem?  Against yellow cons, my taunts get resisted about 50% of the time, against oranges it's almost all the time."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actualy i would have to say its better for gaurds to tnak higher con then brawlers for the reason i said above. I have a hate proc on hits. Guards have a hate [Removed for Content] when they get hit. VS high yellow/orange con i tend to get hit more then i actually hit for and on multiple mobs its not even close. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to the benefit of +to skills vs +Dps, there is several posts explaining why the +to skill buff helps out so much in actually landing hits on higher lvl encounters. In fact the guard buff combined with a wardens +to skill buff is the preferred raid setup for tanking. (spell resist and taunts is equally shared by guards/brawlers since both use mental resist equally, the + to combat skills doe snot help either of the 2 in casting spells)</DIV></DIV> <P>O btw i was in poets last night w a lvl 59 wizard, my brawler was lvl 59 as well vs the lvl 65 mobs i could not land a hit (5-6 lvls suck). i could not hold agro even w master aoe taunt (30sec recast), adept1 single target taunt (10sec recast?) (just ordered the adept3). I had to switch to mid stance and tell the wizard to mezz the named while i taunted until hsi 30 sec mezz ran out. Then i would tank and spam until the mob died even still at the end the wizard woudl draw agro i had to rescue and hope agro would not get lost again. Sad to say the wizard did die at least 3x that night sometimes rescue was not up and most times i could not draw agro back. He was peeling me left and right vs 64/65 mobs in PP. </P> <P>as to better utility FD, self heal, and mezz is nice. Mostly those are great solo buffs. Although they do tend to help while grouping abit, but last night i am sure that wizard would of loved for me to be a guard.  He would of loved if i placed place assauge on him, he would love if i put Guardians sphere up on group, he would of loved if i had sentry on him, He would of loved if i had any of the gaurds protection skills on him, but for my job at the time of tanking. That utility i have over guards was far less superior then what a guard would have offered. </P> <P>Guardians are far less broken now then what these boards presume to claim. It seems to me alot of the anger is steming from the fact that guards have a hard time soloing. When they compare themselves to other tanks whose utility seems to benefit more for soloing. IMHO guards need to have thier offensive stance retuned to be add more DPS and be more solo friendly. As to group tanking a gaurdian is a superior tank vs any challenging content. I don't like to "grind xp". I rather group for a purpose. I rather do an instance where i know i cna acheive some upgrade or do a quest to further my characters developement. And most times those require me to be in content ahead of me rather then fighting NPC's that are considered easier. And in those instances a guard is the safest tank to have. The game has been getting "easier" lately mobs are catered less toward the challange. And each patch that makes mobs that were previously killable, but challenging into easier targets makes the gaurds use of protection abilites less needed. If the game was challenging in at least a small portion of the game, i beleive things would be better. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 AM</span>

[Veshtan]

<DIV>I'm not saying the offensive buff doesn't help in some way....it's just never been noticeable for me when killing mobs.  But my DPS is so lacking anyway, that hitting 1 or two more times really doesn't help all that much anyway.   I think i would agree that for a scout class, grouping with us would likely allow them to land more hits and may help more then haste against higher level mobs.  I do know that right now, my monk can rip through mobs 3 to 4 times faster then my guard could at the same level.  (But that's not what we're really talking about here...probably should have left that out)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to your experience with the wizard...LOL...that sounds about right.  Holding aggro is a universally painful thing for all fighters now.  It's not just a guard issue, i know.   The way they re-did taunting and aggro, just makes it a complete pita to control when fighting certain encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, most of my experience as a guard comes from duoing with my wizardly wife....so that being said, my complaints come from that perspective and my experience in other areas is sadly lacking, especially on the raid level.  So you can take what i say with a grain of salt...or not.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV>I would have to agree w you playing a gaurd myself the offensive group buff is basically unoticable solo. And vs any low yellow or less mobs in groups it doesn't do as much. That buff completely shines in high lvl content. Liek i said prior what gaurds lack is completely in that solo/dou area. If i was SoE and can do 2 simple changes to guards one would be to remove the shield damage from "tower of stone" and the second would be to add a +15 % dps part to guards offensive stance (10-15% depending on tier)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:03 AM</span>

[Veshtan]

<P>*nods at Gungo*</P> <P>I've also noticed that the few guards that come in here and post saying they are perfectly happy are always the raid level guards.  The ones that are lvl 60, have full T6 fabled and are MT most nights for their high level guild.  I posted somewhere else that i think that SOE wanted to turn us into that.  To be the raid MT, a lot of our arts and skills accel in that area, while not being nearly so helpful elsewhere.   It just sucks for me that i get me guard as far as i did to have things change and realize that the way he was before was perfect for what i was doing, but now is sadly lacking for that purpose.   I think Gaige may have been the one to say that if you don't expect an MMO to change, you're crazy....or something roughly like that, and i'd agree.  It just sucks when it changes this drastically and leaves you hanging there with a character that just doesn't perform the role you need very well anymore, yet you have all this time vested in him.</P> <P>Anyway.....i'm liking my monk (yes, blasphemy on these boards, i know) and will continue to level him up and hopefully i'll see some good solo friendly changes to my guard that will make me enjoy playing him again.</P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skharr wrote:<BR>You tank better and have better buffs<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>better buffs? you have 3 stances.. also a str buff?? not to sure... our only real good buff is uor def stance.. then 45o life and some to def and a sta buff.. but I am sure u get some as well... dont remeber off hand... I know monks I think get tsunami which is immortality spell...a nd you get a free buff jsut for being a brawler called a natual sheild.. and 360 avoidance... which does nto need to be cast.. that is unheard of imo</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JudyJudy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do i think guards should be better at compared to a brawler? Tanking melee mobs and multiple target agro and useful group protection utility (whereas zerker have more aoe dps). What do i think brawlers should be better at compared to gaurds. DPS, single target agro, and solo utility. </DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>I usually don't respond to threads such as these, but seeing as though my brethren and myself have been called out, I felt it necessary to support Gungo's thoughts on how the classes should progress.  I agree completely with the above statements - including the need for a DPS increase for guardians.  Perhaps a change in your offensive stance would solve this?</EM></P> <P><EM>Just my 2cp...</EM><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>not to sure.. most guards didnt get a guard to dps.. they really jsut need to give a guard some defining abilties... something that makes us useful like the dirge mana song or brawler group FD something interesting.. or something that would allow us to tank better since we dont have the utility</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>veshtan ok so you don't think you have better buffs.. What then persay buffs do brawlers have that is superior here. I cna name 1 group buff both monk and bruisers have (offensive) and 1 single target avoid buff. both of which a gaurd has AND the guards has even more group buffs then this. not gettign into semantics abotu this again since i had listed all buffs before BUT i can name mitgation and HP buffs that guards have moreso then brawlers to name a few. Maybe its better to say brawlers have worse buffs then guards. </P> <P>Btw many guards complain about thier offensive buff, BUT the truth is while tanking (a fighters main role) the gaurds offensive buff is the best buff to counteract the negative stats of defensive stance.) Fact is while tanking yellow or orange con mobs i tend to miss alot because of the defensive negative stats. when i switch to offensive/mixed stance i am able to actually land hits (which coincidentalliy is the main way i hold agro). The gaurds skill increasing offensive stance is in my opinion the best tanking offensive buff, because +dps or + haste does very little if you can't land a hit in defensive stance. although while in offensive stance it does seem not to have as much of an impact as +dps or +haste. And there does seem to be a limit of how much benefit +to skills buff will add. So coincidentally your offensive buff is better for you while tanking IMHO whereas +dps/+haste is better for offensive. </P> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Infact unless i am tanking a very hard hitting mob or have a warden in group. I am genrally tanking w adept 3 mixed stanced simple because i can't hit/hold agro vs high yellow/orange mobs.</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:26 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>we dont have any mit buff u dont.. we have our def stance and lame 30 sec buffs. in fact you have like a 1400 mit buff?? isnt it.. or that bruiser?not sure anymroe... anyhow group buffs doesnt matter self buffs are all that really count to a tank.. like I care if the wizzy has 14 more def.. when I am getting hit.. the +to salshing and such is absolute junk... it doesnt do a thing I hit mobs anyway.. it is not needed at all... none ever notices a diffeerence and noone I know has any problems hitting mobs</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>"And Guards don't have this same problem?  Against yellow cons, my taunts get resisted about 50% of the time, against oranges it's almost all the time."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actualy i would have to say its better for gaurds to tnak higher con then brawlers for the reason i said above. I have a hate proc on hits. Guards have a hate [Removed for Content] when they get hit. VS high yellow/orange con i tend to get hit more then i actually hit for and on multiple mobs its not even close. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to the benefit of +to skills vs +Dps, there is several posts explaining why the +to skill buff helps out so much in actually landing hits on higher lvl encounters. In fact the guard buff combined with a wardens +to skill buff is the preferred raid setup for tanking. (spell resist and taunts is equally shared by guards/brawlers since both use mental resist equally, the + to combat skills doe snot help either of the 2 in casting spells)</DIV></DIV> <P>O btw i was in poets last night w a lvl 59 wizard, my brawler was lvl 59 as well vs the lvl 65 mobs i could not land a hit (5-6 lvls suck). i could not hold agro even w master aoe taunt (30sec recast), adept1 single target taunt (10sec recast?) (just ordered the adept3). I had to switch to mid stance and tell the wizard to mezz the named while i taunted until hsi 30 sec mezz ran out. Then i would tank and spam until the mob died even still at the end the wizard woudl draw agro i had to rescue and hope agro would not get lost again. Sad to say the wizard did die at least 3x that night sometimes rescue was not up and most times i could not draw agro back. He was peeling me left and right vs 64/65 mobs in PP. </P> <P>as to better utility FD, self heal, and mezz is nice. Mostly those are great solo buffs. Although they do tend to help while grouping abit, but last night i am sure that wizard would of loved for me to be a guard.  He would of loved if i placed place assauge on him, he would love if i put Guardians sphere up on group, he would of loved if i had sentry on him, He would of loved if i had any of the gaurds protection skills on him, but for my job at the time of tanking. That utility i have over guards was far less superior then what a guard would have offered. </P> <P>Guardians are far less broken now then what these boards presume to claim. It seems to me alot of the anger is steming from the fact that guards have a hard time soloing. When they compare themselves to other tanks whose utility seems to benefit more for soloing. IMHO guards need to have thier offensive stance retuned to be add more DPS and be more solo friendly. As to group tanking a gaurdian is a superior tank vs any challenging content. I don't like to "grind xp". I rather group for a purpose. I rather do an instance where i know i cna acheive some upgrade or do a quest to further my characters developement. And most times those require me to be in content ahead of me rather then fighting NPC's that are considered easier. And in those instances a guard is the safest tank to have. The game has been getting "easier" lately mobs are catered less toward the challange. And each patch that makes mobs that were previously killable, but challenging into easier targets makes the gaurds use of protection abilites less needed. If the game was challenging in at least a small portion of the game, i beleive things would be better. </P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>we complain cause we are alot werse then brawlers and same as crusaders cept we dont heal/FD/rezz/ dps as much.. that is the problem rreally</P> <P> </P>

[Allowin]

<P>im amazed that you guys are still crying about this and that..</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>whaaa whaaa whaaaa</P> <P> </P> <P>we got nerfed, sony will NOT be changing that. we got screwed over, took one up the whazooo and all sony plans to do about it is ignore it and hope it goes away. they will NOT give guardians anything else. you got what you got so get over it or quit.</P> <P> </P> <P>and thats exactly what i did, i quit my guardian and retired him to the back pasture. </P> <P>im sick and tired of all the crying and whining about this and that. sony will not respond, and if they do, its MG just blowing smoke up your [Removed for Content] cause he knows they are not gonna do jack about it.</P> <P> </P> <P>all this time everybody has been crying on these boards that we got nerfed, we got nerfed...ive rolled up a troubador and got him to lvl 48 already...and having a freaking blast</P> <P> </P> <P>so delete your guardians, they are NOT going to get fixed. live with it or leave. go roll up a bruiser or monk or pally or sk if you want to tank.</P> <P> </P> <P>but for gods sakes, stop crying. nothing is going to get guardians un-nerfed.</P> <P> </P> <P>have you not noticed the gm's have quit even visiting these forums and havent bothered to respond to any more guardian whine threads?</P>

[Gungo]

Yeah Jnewby basically you are combining monk and bruisers skills, addding in crusader buffs to an argument that has nothing included in it of them. Your numbers are off when you did provide them. And you didn't even read any of the thread. Instead it was alot of whining. So basically its not worth responding to your replys. Instead we will just have to refer you to the fact that GUARDS ARE STILL MAINTANKING RAIDS NOW. What does that mean persay? well for one thing guards are the preferrd MT becuase they are the best MT for raids. Two what you were saying basically was aksing for guards to get more raid tanking abilites which has nothing to do with the Point of this thread and subsequent replys. Many are complaining gaurds can't solo and for the times another fighter tanks a gaurd is useles on groups/raids. Saying you dont want more dps to solo faster or offer a bit more in group really menas nothing. In the grand scheme of things a gaurdian who focused on offense was suppsoe to outdps a bralwer who focused on defense. (that was mentioned by a developer prior) <P>btw i see you bumped alot of old flame threads that had nothing construtive in them to add your nothing constructive comments. Really what was the need to bump the "monks should not be tanks: thread that was dead since november 1st. Just couldn't help flaming and whining could ya.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 PM</span>

[Skha]

**REMOVED DUE TO NAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:34 AM</span>

[JuJut]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> <P> What do i think guards should be better at compared to a brawler? <STRONG>Tanking melee mobs and multiple target agro and useful group protection utility (whereas zerker have more aoe dps).</STRONG> What do i think brawlers should be better at compared to gaurds. DPS, single target agro, and solo utility. Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:43 PM</SPAN><BR></P></DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I hate to post a 'what he said' reply but, as a monk, I agree with Gungo. That's where I think guardians should excel.<BR>