Raid MT group

[Axor]

<DIV>what do you use guys? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I seen a post below saying he had like 75% mitig on MT group before 30 sec buffs.. what kind of group you have for this ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My defensive stance mitig is arround 3.2k-3.3k</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The MT group we been using lately been :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian ( Raid MT ) </DIV> <DIV>Mystic</DIV> <DIV>Templar</DIV> <DIV>Warden</DIV> <DIV>Coercer</DIV> <DIV>Pally // Guardian ( we been using Guardian sphere since LU16 giving us nice results).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What are yours ? im missing something?</DIV>

[lostsandman]

may be noob question, why Coercer say over dirge or others?

[Urglu]

I'm still playing with the setup since we don't have all 60's yet. However I would say you need at least a dirge in there if not a troub as well. Dump the Mystic and Guardian.Doesn't the Inquis have superior mitigation buff over the Temp?We don't have any Furies in our guild right now but I thought they were the preferred druid now.If you don't need the power regen from the coercer (bard regen will help) use the last slot for resist buff class (depending on the mob), or use a conjurer for a nice little mitigation buff plus some resists.Heh, I may have asked more questions than I answered there.<p>Message Edited by Urglunt on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:32 AM</span>

[TunaBoo]

My favorite general purpose really hard mob group at mis guard temp warden mystic dirge conj Last slot I can stick in whatever depending on resists I want...  illus for spellshield, pally for ac etc. Other 5 I rarely change... if I do its to swap dirge for troub for more heat/cold/arcane. You really want 1 cleric 1 sham 1 druid if you want to max your HP and stats... I choose the more defensive of all 3 (temp / mystic / warden) as I like the buffs I get a letter better.. but you can switch in their offensive counterpart if you are in a pinch and get nearly the same buffs. <div></div>

[Axor]

<DIV>Thanks tuna.. i guess the problem is i have no bards at all in my guild, the one we had is inactive for 3 months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What are bards exactly buffing and how important are them ? Its a must to have a bard on raid?</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Well... dirge give you stoneskin procs, + defense or +parry depending on dirge or troub.. lots of stats, power regen, dirge gives you a hate mod,  etc. If you can't get a bard, you can fill in with a coercer as you still get power, and still get a hate mod. You can clicky my sig for my gear.. not that super dooper statwise at least.. but with a dirge and the group I listed I normally sit on a raid with like 450 sta 500 str 375 agi xx wis and int Which is nice. Im working on my agi right now, so I can try to get my agi to the cap... not there yet but maybe someday. I end up around 10,800 hp. Need to master a few things up to go higher I think. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>Um other then heat/cold  and wis buffs why do you use a warden instead of a fury?</P> <P>Fury's add more mitigation then wardens although ur probably capped in mitgation but the persona window is vs even con solo mobs not higher lvl raid mobs.</P> <P>defense from dustorm is usually already capped  (especially w bards) and dustorms effect is useless vs non heroic</P> <DIV>porcupine is an awesome 30 sec buff that cna be cast at least 2x in a fight</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fury have larger in group direct heals.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

<div></div>Warden has heat cold ward warden hast dust/sand storm (still helps) wardens buff my slash/crush/pierce by like 50 (onoy way I can hit mobs in defensive stance) Proc is a 30 sec buff and totally unneeded. Furys go with casters to buff int, not so hot in the MT group. The + to hit of warden alone means I get a TON more aggro. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:07 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>Ok figured (guess it helps to be at the mitgation cap w/o a fury)</P> <P>the wis buffs and heat cold ward is nice</P> <P>Duststorm still works on the epic adds and heroics</P> <P>and yeah that primal fury buff rocks to negate the effect of defensive stance and allow a tank to hit an orange con again.</P>

[boucani]

<P>Very usefull post.  Im glad you guys shared your experiences with us.  Thanks a lot.</P> <P> </P> <P>Rustan (guard 4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Lavastorm</P>

[mochl]

<ul> <li>Guardian</li> <li>Templar</li> <li>Mystic</li> <li>Warden</li> <li>Dirge</li> <li>Illusionist/Coercer </li> </ul> Could swap the Warden out with a Fury depending on what we are fighting. The Dirge is almost always a must for me, power regen and hate increase is pretty freaking sweet. We have a fairly high Defiler now so we might start using him at times in place of the Mystic if it calls for it. My guild used to be fighter heavy but since the revamp we have more scouts and casters than ever before so its rare that ill have a second fighter grouped with me. <div></div>

[Lyrus]

-Guardian -Mystic -Templar -Warden -Dirge -Conj/Necro/Wizard, etc <div></div>

[Manyak]

<DIV>For general purpose:</DIV> <DIV>-Guardian</DIV> <DIV>-Mystic</DIV> <DIV>-Inquisitor</DIV> <DIV>-Warden</DIV> <DIV>-Troubador</DIV> <DIV>-Buffer (varies)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For extra poison resists, switch the troubador for a dirge.</DIV> <DIV>For extra magic mit, switch the warden for a fury.</DIV> <DIV>And then whichever damage is the worse from the mob, stick in some1 that buffs against that damage in the last spot.</DIV>

[blueduckie]

<DIV>Am a DE reaching 10k hp 4700 sitting mit with</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor</DIV> <DIV>Defiler</DIV> <DIV>Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Paladin</DIV> <DIV>Troubador</DIV> <DIV>Conjuror</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>only immoveable barbute for fabled in armor slot. I like paladin buff to add mit and normal in a mt group a paladin can take over usually if mt dies with those buffs left or group heal an ae etc. Big on paladins in mt group here tho unless needing more of a resist.</DIV>

[annyliu1]

<DIV>How much mitigation difference between templar vs inquisitor and mystic vs defiler ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guild only got templar and defiler but no inq/mystic</DIV> <DIV>With all cobalt armor and group with troubodar/pally/templar/defiler/warden</DIV> <DIV>My mitigation is only 4K (actully 391x)</DIV> <DIV>Conjuror gives around 300 mitigation I think</DIV> <DIV>Is there so much difference that inq/mystic can buff over templar/defiler ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if I want to get more mitigation from conjuror</DIV> <DIV>Which class should I drop is the best choice? warden? defiler ? or ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't get mitigation potion yet, (will try to get it)</DIV> <DIV>No idea how much it helps, but dont think I can ever close to 4700 mitigation</DIV> <DIV>Still miss anything ? </DIV> <DIV>Please helps, thanks a lot !!!</DIV>

[blueduckie]

<P>Only mitigation is added from 1 priest total. The mit from there buffs do not stack. Master for them all is 564 - the 2ndary effects do stack however tho.</P> <P>Inquisitor adds sta templar adds raw hp from buff</P> <P>Defiler adds raw hp Mystic sta</P> <P>Something i have discovered which is very neat IMO is Inquisitor helps you hit mobs better than templar. If you dont believe me try it yourself. Inquisitor we use has master in dps buff. Well the dps buff does more than adding to slashing etc for accuracy and dps. Tested it 4-5 diff times. With Inquisitor i nearly never miss. My attacks constantly hit. It is like being in offensive stance. However with a templar i miss alot. For aggro purpose if aggro is your problem. Use a Inquisitor over Templar or use both. Toinght was hitting 10.7k hp with Inquisitor Templar Defiler Conjuror Guardian Troubador. On our ogre guardian that is 11k hp if he used potions. </P> <P>BTW testesd accuracy throughly on lvl 62 and 64 mobs also the 65 mobs in poets. All came to same conclusion.</P> <P>As for getting Mit higher. Paladin needs to be feeding you there mit. That should add like 400ish mit i think the t6 version is. Then you need some fabled + potion to reach 4700. You can do alot of DoF the non orange con mobs easily with 4k mit tho. Was only 4300 mit in Gates of Akhet tonight and it was easy on melee dmg. Have paladin toss you there mit and add potion and you should be set. If not then tell your priests to update buffs. Make sure you are doing spirit of lost runs for masters. We have gotten alot of copies of them it masters from there.</P> <p>Message Edited by blueduckie on <span class=date_text>11-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 PM</span>

[Mentin]

<P>Nobody using a second fighter class in MT group?</P> <P>Advantages:</P> <P>- Backup tank if MT goes down</P> <P>- Some extra buffs, as long as that fighter is not the same class as the MT</P> <P>- But most important: Protection skills.  Guardian's Vigilance gives: 33% chance to activate x 40% avoidance = 13% chance at intercepting damage at no cost. All the Fighter classes have these, although the bruiser ones might be more efficient because of their high avoidance. The numbers are with adept 1 spells and legendary level gear. Adept 3 and fabled gear will push them even higher.</P> <P>13%-15% free melee damage intercept probably is more valuable than the extra buffs another class can add, given you already have 4 slots for the usual cleric/shaman/druid + other combo? This in particular for melee heavy mobs, magic heavy mobs probably benefits from extra resists.</P> <P> </P>

[blueduckie]

Used to use paladin but we more often than not dont have a MT die. We build 2 solid MT groups for a back up tank normally 3 fighters set up to tank total in each raid. If ever needed more than that we'd be in trouble.

[annyliu1]

<DIV>Thanks for the reply blueduckie !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our pally did give me mitigation transfer I believe</DIV> <DIV>Guess what I need is potion and conj buff to push mitigation higher</DIV> <DIV>Other then that is fabled gears</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, spirit of lost raid will drop T6 master 1 spell?</DIV> <DIV>Or some of those buffs are T5?</DIV>

[blueduckie]

<P>The mit buff is lvl 47 for priests which doesnt upgrade. You get lvl 46-50 masters in spirits. So close to non upgradable masters to those that dont upgrade. Very much worth it. We avg 6 mastes a run so well worth it. 46 spells upgrade at 60 btw so most are kinda worthless however anchor for guardian master 1 is > than plant adept 3. Good stuff tho and yes conj is a big boost to mit. Ours picked it as there M2 choice for raids.</P>

[DanielAtchison]

<P>Guardian</P> <P>Inquisitor</P> <P>Defiler</P> <P>Dirge</P> <P>Conjorer</P> <P>Paladin / Warden</P>

[dparker7]

Paladin MT.  Agro management for teh win!

[Dart]

<P>Paly (MT)</P> <P>Warden</P> <P>Mystic</P> <P>Temp</P> <P>Warlock (Amends on me)</P> <P>Swap in different classes depending on target and buff needs.</P> <P>Two things you will notice: No Guard (we dont have any above level 55, let alone any active enough to MT) Well Josey working on levels, but hes sub 55 atm. Other is why the heck a warlock in MT group?? Agro... mana pump. I'm sure the critics will come and say omg no ! But hey it works for us an agro is a non issue 99.99% of the time, unless our conj gets freaky. Not to mention focus buff helps healers with the fizzles and stuffs. We havent had a Guard tank for us since post LU13. </P> <P> </P>

[A]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darton wrote:<BR> <P>Paly (MT)</P> <P>Warden</P> <P>Mystic</P> <P>Temp</P> <P>Warlock (Amends on me)</P> <P>Swap in different classes depending on target and buff needs.</P> <P>Two things you will notice: No Guard (we dont have any above level 55, let alone any active enough to MT) Well Josey working on levels, but hes sub 55 atm. Other is why the heck a warlock in MT group?? Agro... mana pump. I'm sure the critics will come and say omg no ! But hey it works for us an agro is a non issue 99.99% of the time, unless our conj gets freaky. Not to mention focus buff helps healers with the fizzles and stuffs. We havent had a Guard tank for us since post LU13. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why use a Warlock instead of a ranger for Amends ?</P> <P>Wouldn't the ranger provide more aggro to the MT ?<BR></P>

[Dart]

<P>we do not have any level 60 Rangers, I am the only DPS class at level 60 atm. So yes they choose to use me in 90% of the situations. In rare occasions when its been a single target raid mob, Ive asked our RL (Conj) to swap with me hes level 58. He is the only one that ever steals agro. Very rarely our monk will or our 55 ranger, but again thats only on single target mobs. </P> <P>You ask why a Warlock, well on any encounter that has multiple mobs with named (unless mezzing) it, an AE DPS class is optimal. This is just a strat we have been working on, by no means is it the 'right way' or the only way. </P> <P>I have been the highest DPS on raids with more than one mob, anywhere form 800 to 1k or more. Next closest is usually around 500. So far so good, seems to be working well. This also provides a mana pump to the MT (Archlich anyone) so in those events its a bonus to have a warlock. In no way am I saying this is 'the' way, but seems to have been working well for us so far. I guess the key is level, and me being the highest "Level" DPS in the guild makes it work. Once we have a 60 ranger, im sure we will change it up some.</P> <P> </P>

[TunaBoo]

<div></div><div></div>waste to use 2nd tank in MT group till they fix vigalance self buff bug. When they fix it, vs melee mobs I will use a pally in 6th slot for the avoid buff, and the 425 ac or whatever they give. <div></div><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:31 AM</span>

[GidionSWE]

<P>Our MT group usually consists of:</P> <P>Zerk (tanking)</P> <P>templar</P> <P>defiler (no mystic, sooo hard to find) </P> <P>dirge</P> <P>paladin and coercer (alltough these spots are pretty lose, can switch for a druid, guardian, something else)</P> <P>Oh and if u want the blockbuff (whatever its called) to be extra good get some VLA clothes and go in defensive stance with a dirge and other buffs ull probably be pushing 60% and closing in on 70% avoidance..havent done this myself yet but thats cause im a slack <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>(and if ure wondering why the zerk is tanking is cause they got pretty awesome aggro, and hes pretty much fabled up armorwise by now just missing some gauntlets - didnt have a guardian when we started raiding so we equipped the zerk, if we wouldve had a guard im not sure how things wouldve been) </P> <P>-edited for language</P> <P>-and again </P> <P>Message Edited by GidionSWE on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:48 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by GidionSWE on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:49 AM</span>

[Gora]

<DIV>Shocking how all the MT groups have a guard instead of a brawler....funny that they looked pretty much the same pre-lu16.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Argest</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>

[Dart]

<P>I honestly think this is atributed to the fact the guild's built up Guards as MT's pre LU13. Thus they remained MT, if they continued to play. Comfort zones, already equipt MT's, going with what worked in past, are the three main reasons I think. </P> <P>Couple that with the fact that many current MT's had rolled guards from the get go, and here is why. I MT'd in EQlive for well over 3 years. When I came to EQ2 beta I covered the class descriptions, and anyone who has played an MMO and MT previousely, would have clearly read that the guardian was "The most defensive tank", which was what the Warriror was in EQlive. So naturaly folks rolled up guards. I knwo many MT's from EQlive that did this exact thing. </P> <P>So now you have perity in a field where the guard had a nich (Defense), now where does that leave the guard, vanilla'd to be equal or near it defensively across fighter tree's, with no other compensation for that kick in the nuts.</P> <P>Moorguard can scream guards are the best at agro, and I will 100% completely dissagree. I am not gonna elabrate why, but anyone who plays this game can clearly see this is NOT the case. Im not here to get folks nerfed, but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if guards are supposed to have the best taunts, then make it so! Or dont claim it to be the case. IMHO if they keep taunt resists in game, they should give the guard an edge on less resists.</P> <P> </P> <P>And for flavor: Add a Damage reflective component to some CA's, to compesnate for being at the bottom of the DPS food chain. Its been said many times before, if tanking is to be equal across the board, then it is only fair DPS and Utility is aswell. Doesnt mean they need to be identical, but they should be near equal. </P> <P> </P> <P> Thats IMHO of course)</P>

[Benfyn]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gorag1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Shocking how all the MT groups have a guard instead of a brawler....funny that they looked pretty much the same pre-lu16.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Argest</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Not really shocking when you consider this is a thread in the Guardian forums about how they set up a MT raid group. I'm sure the other tank classes have MT raid groups featuring other tanks as MT but aren't posting because they are being respectful and not wanting to intrude.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Krrrath, lvl 60 Guardian of Kithicor</DIV>

[Skha]

NOONE uses a brawler as a regular MT on daily basis..... <div></div>

[Dart]

Maybe because all the brawlers are out soloing level 60^^^ /cackle sarcasm off :smileysurprised:

[TunaBoo]

guardian is what I got, so I gotta make it work somehow... /shrug didn't think devs would change the most defensive tank 9 months into game. <div></div>

[Dart]

I hear ya Tunab, and I agree 100% I didnt expect them to make such dramatic changes.

[Gora]

<P>Raiding is about optimization, which is why this thread was started.  How do you optimize your tank's hp/mitigation/aggro control/resists.</P> <P>The same guys saying brawlers were going to be 'the' tanks weeks ago are the same ones saying they all build their MT groups with guardians.  </P> <P>Why is this?  Silence from the hypocrites?</P> <P>I'll help out.  Guardian tanks are more stable and better raid tanks than brawlers.  The disparity is not as great, but it's still there.  </P> <P>Could Guardians use more utility/dps, prolly a little, but if it helps you tank any better the pendulum is gonna start swaying back to pre-lu13.</P> <P>So for all the guardians screaming about how much your class is broken, take a look at this thread.  Come 60, yer doing fine, prior to 60, yer ok to, not great, but ok.  Which is how it should be.</P> <P>Argest</P> <P>Najena</P>

[TunaBoo]

<div></div><font color="#ff0000">"</font> <p><font color="#ff0000">The same guys saying brawlers were going to be 'the' tanks weeks ago are the same ones saying they all build their MT groups with guardians.  </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Why is this?  Silence from the hypocrites?"</font> </p> <p>No, monks tank better then guards, it's just a sad fact all our monks suck at tanking... doesn't matter how good your toon is if the player behind it just wants to mash buttons and kill stuff like a drug induced truck driver. </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">So for all the guardians screaming about how much your class is broken, take a look at this thread.  Come 60, yer doing fine, prior to 60, yer ok to, not great, but ok.  Which is how it should be. </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">So horribly broken classes are okay as long as we are 60 and good? Sadly, we have the same problem thoughtout all of our levles. Poor dps, inconsistent aggro, and inferior self buffs.</font> </font> </p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 AM</span>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:<div></div><font color="#ff0000">"</font> <p><font color="#ff0000">The same guys saying brawlers were going to be 'the' tanks weeks ago are the same ones saying they all build their MT groups with guardians.  </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Why is this?  Silence from the hypocrites?"</font> </p> <p>No, monks tank better then guards, it's just a sad fact all our monks suck at tanking... doesn't matter how good your toon is if the player behind it just wants to mash buttons and kill stuff like a drug induced truck driver. </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">So for all the guardians screaming about how much your class is broken, take a look at this thread.  Come 60, yer doing fine, prior to 60, yer ok to, not great, but ok.  Which is how it should be. </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">So horribly broken classes are okay as long as we are 60 and good? Sadly, we have the same problem thoughtout all of our levles. Poor dps, inconsistent aggro, and inferior self buffs.</font> </font> </p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class="date_text">11-23-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:38 AM</span></p><hr>Best post ever. </blockquote></span><div></div>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skharr wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ff0000>"</FONT> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The same guys saying brawlers were going to be 'the' tanks weeks ago are the same ones saying they all build their MT groups with guardians.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Why is this?  Silence from the hypocrites?"</FONT><BR></P> <P>No, monks tank better then guards, it's just a sad fact all our monks suck at tanking... doesn't matter how good your toon is if the player behind it just wants to mash buttons and kill stuff like a drug induced truck driver.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>So for all the guardians screaming about how much your class is broken, take a look at this thread.  Come 60, yer doing fine, prior to 60, yer ok to, not great, but ok.  Which is how it should be.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>So horribly broken classes are okay as long as we are 60 and good? Sadly, we have the same problem thoughtout all of our levles. Poor dps, inconsistent aggro, and inferior self buffs.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:38 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> Best post ever. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And sadly, it's very true; at least about monks having issues tanking. I group with a monk regularly who knows his stuff, but in almost all cases in any post-50 group I've been in with a monk/bruiser... Well, it's a train wreck waiting to happen. Typically, their agro management skills are woefully underneglected, so targetting becomes a mess. Heals draw other mobs in the encounter off the monk and onto the preists of the group, AE DPS classes get swarmed, and generally the whole mindset of the Monk MT I've seen is 'Beat the snot out of this mob and hope to god I kill it fast enough to get to the one on the warlock, then hope to god -that- one dies fast enough I can hop over to the gnoll beating up the templar.<BR>

[Noo]

<DIV>Well the other side of the coin is, when i get in a nonguild group and i ask them to pick a MA 90% of the time i get told: "What for you need a MA in a normal group ??" What i wanna say is, its not just cause all monks are bad tanks cause of their bad skillz, its also cause ppl dont listen when a monk tells them what works best when a monk tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Noogard - Valor</DIV> <DIV>60 Monk</DIV> <DIV>Paradigma</DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>We happen to have one of the absolute best equipped Monks world wide, who absolutely knows his stuff. I have been in XP grps with him and with our lvl 60 Guard, who is also our guild MT. I have seen little to no difference in the way they tank, with the exception of aggro, which the monk keeps a bit better. I have not had the chance to see the monk tank Barakah or Sunchild, though, so I cant vouch for damage taken.</P> <P>That being said, the advantange to having a Guard being the MT is that the other tank classes can do more than just tank, whereas the thats the Guards only job and they can do it a bit better. Therefore, it you have a guard that can tank, he's the best choice. Its not that other fighters cant tank, its that they can help a raid or grp in other ways.</P> <P>The config I see often is:</P> <P>Guard</P> <P>Paly/ Conj</P> <P>Templar</P> <P>Mystic</P> <P>Warden/fury</P> <P>Troub</P> <p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 AM</span>

[Dwohan]

<P>I think a good MT grp </P> <P> </P> <P>Guardian</P> <P>Templar</P> <P>Defiler/Mystic</P> <P>Warden</P> <P>Avoidtank or Pala</P> <P>Dirge</P> <P> </P> <P>with good gear 11k+ hp, str sta cap (450-500)</P> <P>with guard short time buffs 5700 mitigation </P>

[Krooner]

uzhiel wrote:  That being said, the advantange to having a Guard being the MT is that the other tank classes can do more than just tank, whereas the thats the <U>Guards only job and they can do it a bit better</U>. <U>Therefore, it you have a guard that can tank, he's the best choice</U>. Its not that other fighters cant tank, its that they can help a raid or grp in other ways <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You miss the point of the volumous posts of non guardian fighters on the forums.  It has been argued by a few and obviously listened  to by those in power that as long as the guardian is the preferd tank then they are the " ONLY" tank . And they feel the need to discourage this.</DIV> <DIV>That is why our CA's stun, root, damage and kill us like no other fighter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 PM</span>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ff0000>"</FONT> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The same guys saying brawlers were going to be 'the' tanks weeks ago are the same ones saying they all build their MT groups with guardians.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Why is this?  Silence from the hypocrites?"</FONT><BR></P> <P>No, monks tank better then guards, it's just a sad fact all our monks suck at tanking... doesn't matter how good your toon is if the player behind it just wants to mash buttons and kill stuff like a drug induced truck driver.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>So for all the guardians screaming about how much your class is broken, take a look at this thread.  Come 60, yer doing fine, prior to 60, yer ok to, not great, but ok.  Which is how it should be.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>So horribly broken classes are okay as long as we are 60 and good? Sadly, we have the same problem thoughtout all of our levles. Poor dps, inconsistent aggro, and inferior self buffs.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:38 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Why do your monks suck at tanking?  Do they get a chance?  ill equiped?  I'm just wondering what their deal is.  BTW, even if this was true heh, I wouldn't post this about any of my guildmates, lord the yelling that would ensue.</DIV>

[Squall Leonhea]

Our usual MT group looks like this Berserker (MT) Guardian Warden Mystic Inqui Dirge We use the Berserker as the MT because the Guardian can put his sentry buff on the MT. Anyone else using this? I would like some opinion about this because we are having a discussion in our guild who should tank. Does the Guardian have better defensive buffs than a Berserker? <div></div>

[Mig]

No one uses the fury? The 36 second 1600 mit buff is pretty nice. We use it all the time. Helps out if your low on health.

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR>No one uses the fury? The 36 second 1600 mit buff is pretty nice. We use it all the time. Helps out if your low on health.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>PORC! hehe aye we do throw Furys in MT group depending on encoutner, we are lucky and have a few so some go to the DPS Int groups Trub and Fury ftw!

[Urglu]

<DIV>We generally use:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Templar</DIV> <DIV>Warden/Fury (depends on who is around, I tend to favor the Fury at the moment)</DIV> <DIV>Mystic</DIV> <DIV>Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Conjurer (Would be a Pally if we had one and I didn't need resists)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How come so many people use the Inquis over the Templar?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the Serker/Guardian question from above, I believe the Guardian has a few more tricks up his sleeve, not to mention the Serker is much better equipped to deal with adds.  Ours tends to run the show while I root myself and taunt/try not to die.  Works out well. </DIV>

[JudyJudy]

<P><EM>I agree with Tuna - It's all who is sitting behind the monitor.</EM></P> <P><EM>I'm very surprised, however, to see that many brawlers seem to be unskilled at tanking.  Perhaps they leveled too fast, too much time solo'ing, no interest, who knows, but coming from my perspective (as the only active tank in my small guild) - I have very little trouble tanking and keeping my guild fam alive.  N</EM><EM>amed, XP groups, instances - anything.  In fact, many times the guild templar just pops a reactive on me and tells me he's watching a movie.</EM></P> <P><EM>In any role, regardless of class, we must also consider who is tanking and if he/she takes the role seriously and is searching for class mastery.  Regardless of what some people may think, and I respect your opinions, tanking is a skill and should be practiced, honed and perfected.</EM></P>

[davidro]

<DIV>We use</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor (Have no high lvl templar)</DIV> <DIV>Defiler/Fury (Defiler if he's online)</DIV> <DIV>SK (For mitigation)</DIV> <DIV>Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Coercer/Illu (Been testing Illu lately)</DIV>

[pawnipt]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>we use:GuardianTemplar                     (Templars own, Inquisitors are for mele DPS groups)Defiler or Mystic        (Defilers give more HP and have a nice debuff MT proc, Mystics are ok too)Dirge                         (the Dirge isnt really replaceable by a Troub in the MT group we would probly replace Conj or Coecer)SK or Pally                (Pally's give wisdom and group heal, SK's give stamina and have higher parry)Conj or Coecer         (Conj give alittle more mitigation and cold/heat, Coecers AGI and arcane resists,hate,dps,MANA regen!)I'm usually the SK in the MT group buffing the guardian with 425 mitigation and my avoid buff since the guardians parry is capped by the Dirge, I also always wear a shield in offensive stance so i have a chance to block as well as parry for the guardian.  We've realized the second chance for avoid is pretty helpful and all that matters is block% and parry% for the crusader to have when using this buff, we're not sure if DEFENCE / AGI / VLA might help cause more ripostes or not.<div></div><p>Message Edited by pawnipt on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:29 AM</span>

[Irt]

All things being equal, would you choose a Defiler or a Mystic for the "shaman slot" in your MT group?  Do either class have a marked advantage over the other when talking specifically about the MT group? Thanks IF <div></div>

[pawnipt]

I think i would chose defiler mainly because they give alittle more HP then mystics (mystics give more power) also Defilers have  a 8% proc on the MT when they get hit it has a chance to -28% attack speed and -28% DPS.  On the other had Mystics are probly alittle better againts poison and disease mobs as they have a ward specifically for those types of damage, i dont believe the defiler has something like this, tho they both give disease and poison resists.<div></div>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Any of the priest classes can be swapped out for each other depending on the circumstances, but you almost absolutely NEED to have one of each type of healer + a bard.  At least if you really want to take on any of the REAL end game content like Terror and Barak, or Poets Return.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Normaly we run with this setup because it is what we became accustomed to over the last year. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Mystic</DIV> <DIV>Templar</DIV> <DIV>Warden</DIV> <DIV>Troub</DIV> <DIV>Paladin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But we have had just as good results using :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Mystic/Defiler</DIV> <DIV>Templar/Inquisitor</DIV> <DIV>Warden/Fury</DIV> <DIV>Troub/Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Paladin/Conjuror</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People keep mentioning putting DPS classes for "amends" or other tanks for their "Avoidance buff" In all the raiding we have been doin post LU13 we rarely if ever have a problem with agro management, so the DPS class with amends on it  is wasted space IMO.  And only one tank can use its avoidance buff in a group at a time, so if a Bruiser is in there using his on the guardian, the guardian cant use his that increases his parry by 15.  Personally I would rather have aditional 15parry each attack then a 25percent chance to use the other tanks 50percent avoidance check.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV> <DIV>60Guard Faydark </DIV> <DIV>Guild lead Clan of Shadows</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:23 PM</span>

[Teser]

First here is how we generally set up: Guardian Templar Fury Defiler Warden Paladin/Random/(Lost our conj but used to have that there.) We also have a mystic who is lvling up. My question is what is the problem with having two shamans or two druids? (As seen by the fury and warden.) Do not all their buffs stack, do heals not stack, or what? And yes I realize there is no chanter of bard in the group. When our dirge is on at raid time he goes in the 'random' slot. Thanks for all the insights so far in this thread. I've been raiding since July, but theres still lots to know, especially with the influx of new healer types our guild got. <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

We have one monk and one bruiser, not exactly brawler overload ;p   However, its reallllly hard to find fabled light armor that is tank statted.. so once our plate tanks start getting fabled out, the brawlers fall behind. I am sure once they add in a bunch of yummy brawler armor and get fabled out brawlers till be the better tank again...Shrug fury adds so much DPS to the DPS groups, I would never waste them on MT group. Porc is nice, but stunning your healer for a little mita isn't that good of a trade. Plenty of other ways to get mita. I guess if you have like 3 furys on a raid throw one in the MT group, but we usually have one.<div></div>

[Macross_JR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Teserof wrote:First here is how we generally set up: Guardian Templar Fury Defiler Warden Paladin/Random/(Lost our conj but used to have that there.) We also have a mystic who is lvling up. My question is what is the problem with having two shamans or two druids? (As seen by the fury and warden.) Do not all their buffs stack, do heals not stack, or what? And yes I realize there is no chanter of bard in the group. When our dirge is on at raid time he goes in the 'random' slot. Thanks for all the insights so far in this thread. I've been raiding since July, but theres still lots to know, especially with the influx of new healer types our guild got. <div></div><hr></blockquote>The problem with having two healers of the same class in the MT group is thier main specialty heals don't stack and not all buffs stack.  You might be able to get a lot of hit pionts out of that but you are so missing out on mitigation and power regen.  I believe the best MT set up is this: Guardian Templar Defiler Pally/SK Conj. Coercer Using this you will have a crap load of hit points and mitigation.  Using your set up you are missing out on mitigation and hate buff from the coercer.</span><div></div>

[TunaBoo]

Bah dirge has a similar hate buff to coercer, way more hp, way more agi, stoneskin, ressits, etc. etc. etc... you always pick a dirge in MT group before coercer.<div></div>

[blueduckie]

Dirges are better in mt groupfor dure but they dont add any direct hp. Troub add str agi with song while dirge adds str agi. Dirge is better for mt group though. Troub aggro reducer is to powerful not to have with dps.

[Snarks]

a few guilds stick dirge and coercer in mt group.. especially in situations like not having a ring in poets:return against named djinn. <div></div>

[Anfauglith]

For the Brawler vs Guardian as MT, when I do think a brawler (with same quality of CAs and equipement) would take less damage during the fight, the problem that arises is damage spikes...against some of the hardest mobs our guild can kill we sometimes already have that kind of problem with our guard MT, but I think it'll happen more often on aa long fight with a Brawler. P.S: I DO NOT speak about that mob you can now kill with a finger in your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and the other one in your ear while you're playing with your nose... <div></div>

[Ag0ny]

for the most part we been doign the Trifecta Temp Warden Mystic(sometimes Defiler) Crusader Dirge Guardian <div></div>

[Wabit]

<P>still prefer for myself...</P> <P>templar, warden, defiler, dirge, conj/or resist needed...</P> <P>fury for porc is nice, but better in scout group...  paly, well gives me mit but nothing else, and i don't like 2 tanks in MT group...  coercer ain't bad for added hate...  both bards makes for a decent group too...</P> <P>really it depends on the person behind the comp...  some know their classes really well, others not as well...</P> <P> </P> <P>Wabit</P>

[Supernova17]

I'll give some information for Templars and why we have a slot in the MT group. There are some points about stacking I don't put in Warden or Fury becuase their buffs are not comparable to Cleric and Shaman who share similar buffs. Mitigation Buff: (Valor) 493 Adept3, 564? Master1 - Does not stack with Inquisitor, Mystic or Defiler which are equal. Group HP Buff: (Valor) 447 Adept3 - Does not stack with Inquisitor, Mystic, or Defiler Group HP Buff: (Symbol of Naltron) 281 Adept3 - Does not stack with Inquisitor Single HP Buff: (Holy Redoubt) 964 Master1 - Does not stack with Inquisitor, Does stack with Shaman. Single Target Damage Absorption (Unyielding Benediction): 10% to absorb all attacks one time for 10 seconds, Adept3 - Does stack with Dirge Stoneskin (and displays the same Stoneskin message) Single Target Wisdom and STR Buff: (Divine Preatorate) Increases Wisdom and Strength by 88 (raises all resists by 200-300, handy with a Warden in group) Adept3 - Does stack with all Priests. Arcane Resist Buff: (Symbol of Naltron) +812 Mental +1015 Divine +1015 Magic, Adept3 - Does not stack with Inquisitor, Inquisitor adds similar but protects more against Mental than Templar and less against Magic? Temp Arcane Resist Buff: (Aegis of Faith) Increases Magic, Mental and Divine resists by 912 and Wards the group against 1668 points of Magic, Mental and Divine damage for 36 seconds, recast 1 minute, Master 1 (the Ward does eat those pesky Magic aoe's, Blackqueen, PPR mobs etc) Group Cure: (Ardent Resolve) Cures 74 Levels of Crushing, Slashing, Piercing, Mental, Magic and Divine effects. Adept1 /shrug Anti-Control Protection: (Sanctuary) Makes group members immune to Stun, Fear, Pacify, Root and Stifle effects. The group must stay in heal range of the Templar for this spell to maintain it's effect. 30 Second duration, 3 minute recast. Usefull to counter Tank or AOE stunning / stifle on pull. - Comparable only to ShadowKnight Deathmarch, but is easier to impliment as Deathmarch requires the SK's group to kill a mob with this impairment in order to trigger the spell. Offensive Buffs: (Holy Redoubt) +13.9 to Crushing / Slashing / Piercing on target, Master1 (yeah, shut up! <span>:smileytongue:</span>) Self Heal Buff: (Glory of Combat) 5% chance on a melee attack to heal the group (AE) for 436 HP Master1. This is best placed on a Brawler MT, Zerker MT in AOE situations or a Assassin / Swashbuckler in MT group for threat transfer. The heal gives hate to the Templar, but is negligable. Well, that's the buffs we bring to the group! Also, we have the largest standard group heal shared with Defiler. We have the standard heal lines, Group and Single special and spot heals. Focused Benefaction, a large 15 charge reactive that stuns the Templar, but has Master 2 Grand Intercession quality (which only has 5 charges) instant cast. Usefull for rapid incomming damage for small-medium ammounts. Reverance, spend power, gain hp. Blah blah blah, we have alot of GROUP ONLY healing ability, and it pains us Templars with the LONGEST cast times (= Defiler) on spot heals (largest heal though) to not be paired with the MT or 2nd Tank group because our healing is wasted =( This is true for all healers I guess, but even more so with Templars as we have little to no debuffs, crowd control or offensive power. We are pure healing and defensive buffing. <div></div>