Will fixing guardians break EQ2?

[Greyto]

<DIV> <HR> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P> <DIV>To put it simply, it's counterproductive to our goals to upset people. But at the same time, developers must be prepared to make changes that will be unpopular with some people if they believe they are making the game better and more appealing in the long run.</DIV> <P>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>So I guess my question in a nut shell is how would it effect the game if guardians did not have to slow/root themselves?</P> <P>How would it effect the game if we did not have to ruin our gear?</P> <P>How would the game be changed if we could do DPS in a none tanking roll?</P> <P>other then making the game more appealing to me and the rest of the guardians I would have to say it would not hurt the game at all.</P> <P>would the game be less fun if stifle were less intrusive to game play? Does taunt really need to be resisted as much as it is for EQ2 to succeed?</P> <P>Anchor, and Wall of Might are good spells but why do they have to slow me?</P> <P>Will it throw fighter balance off that much if they just snared?</P> <P>Why does Tower of Stone have to destroy my shield? does any other class have a spell that destroys their gear?</P> <P>would it throw off balance if it worked without me having to have a "good shield" and a "junk shield" so I can switch them out?</P> <P>I guess one of the things that kind of bugs me is we do in fact have good spells, but for some reason the best ones all seem to have a negative to go with the positive.</P> <P>MD a good spell but I have to root myself.</P> <P>would it throw balance off if it just snared?</P> <P>Add haste to our offensive stance. Remove slow from Anchor and Wall of Might make them snare us and slow them. Take root out of MD and make it snare us.</P> <P>get rid of the damage effect of Tower of Stone.</P> <P>None of those things throw off tanking balance and would make guardians a blast to play.</P> <P>Just some questions I guess I would like someone to give me a definitive answer to.</P> <P>Thanks,</P> <P>Grey....</P></DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Indeed, tower of stone really needs look at when compared to tsuanimi etc. Insane we can't hold aggro unless rooted, insane we can't use one of our unique buffs unless we destroy a shield. <div></div>

[Prufro]

I hate to say it, but it seems like they really just don't care.  We're not a sexy class, and that's just what we have to deal with. Guardians are a class that no one in their right mind would pick now.  Oh well i guess, cause so many of us DID pick it, and now we're stuck with it.  No one cares but us. <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

Id prefer being functional more then being sexy <div></div>

[Nibbl]

<P>EQ2 has been fixed, since when <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>LU 13 just shifted all the problems into different areas, but guardians sure got fixed (like a pet gets fixed that is) :smileysurprised:</P>

[Styk]

I can agree with all the proposals the OP is suggested except for the slf haste on your offense stance... Single Target DD would be more comperable since ours is an AE dd....

[ballpython]

<P>why are guardians so bad i like mine whats wrong with em</P> <P>i think u guys are just being naive the guardians are meat shields and can do many taunts and take damage plus thet can do some agood damage in soloins so i say stop complaining</P> <P> </P>

[Exill]

Bruiser have a spell identical to Tower of Stone (except for magic attacks rather then melee attacks) but it does not break any part of their gear and there is no "negative" effect.Will post screenshots comparing the two spells for anyone interested.<div></div>

[Venom]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ballpython21 wrote:<BR> <P>why are guardians so bad i like mine whats wrong with em</P> <P>i think u guys are just being naive the guardians are meat shields and can do many taunts and take damage plus thet can do some agood damage in soloins so i say stop complaining</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't see much wrong with them either, I don't see the complaints that many people have about many classes.  What it seems to me is that people want all the classes to be exactly on par with each other, but yet there is complaints about everyone being the same.  If you really look at it, it really seems like people want their class to be how they envision their class.  The "its not fair that our gear breaks with skills and no one else's does" just seems like plain ol whining.  Does anyone have any idea the amount of whining that would come from other classes if they had that same trait implemented at this point?  You can't please everyone all the time and Sony knows this.. any sane person does.  No matter what is done to the game there will always be something to complain about, hence the forums.

[TunaBoo]

The gear breaking is a very big issue. Over a 4 hour raid.. a monk can use tusanimi (a better buff then tower of stone) every 3 minutes. So they can use it 50+ times. Tower of stone takes 50+% off a shiled.. so we can use it.. maybe 5 times if we have 3 shields? A skill that is breaking gear needs to have a noticable effect, which our skill does not. We are not asking to be equal in every way etc. etc... we are looking for skills that are functional as opposed to worthless. Our 52,55,58 skills are much much worse then any other fighter class, and they need to be reviewed. <div></div>

[Veesh]

<DIV>Anyone who says Guardian is fine and a fun class has A. never tanked for a group with a non plate class in it (and / or) B. hasn't made it to his mid to upper 30's ... thats when the problems begin. </DIV>

[Lyrus]

If maddening Defense made me immune to knock backs so I could actually stand out in the open with a mob without fear of being flung to oblivion, I'd more than happily deal with the root portion of it. Taunts getting resisted.....all fighters can agree on this, it's garbage. <div></div>

[boucani]

<DIV>We are not whining.  At least, Ill talk for myself, Im not.  We are giving feedback according to our experience with our class.  I have played over 80 hours with my guard, which is not much compare to others that also give feedbacks here, and I can say our guard class need to be looked at very seriously.  When our class was fine, before the combat revamp, look at this forum and see if there is whining or complain, no.  The complain began with the combat revamp and its totally normal if you have played a guard over 80 hours. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With UL16, its a step in the good way, but still have works to do about the guard class.  The exemple of Tower of stone that breaks our gear is a pretty good one.  Ask yourself, would you like to have a spell or an art that you use frequently doing your group job that breaks one of your most usefull gear?  We have loads of arts with downside, its simply too much.  If you dont play a guard on a regular basis, its understandable that we feel youre totally out of bounds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rustan (guard 47) Lavastorm</DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exill wrote:<BR>Bruiser have a spell identical to Tower of Stone (except for magic attacks rather then melee attacks) but it does not break any part of their gear and there is no "negative" effect.<BR><BR>Will post screenshots comparing the two spells for anyone interested.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I thought Tower of Stone prevented both magic and melee damage while the other skills of this nature only blocked one of the two.  Mind you the 50% shield damage is extreme, 5% would be more reasonable if SOE wants the damaging effect to stay.</P> <P> </P>

[Sasaki Koji]

<P>well.... guardians can:</P> <P>)Root themselvs<BR>)Slow themselvs<BR>)Decrease thier own DPS<BR>)Slow thier own attack speed<BR>)Kill themselvs, for reals<BR>)Destroy thier Shields after 2 Tower of stone uses.<BR>)what else...</P> <DIV>I think if they take out that shield destruction business everything will be balanced <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <span class=date_text>11-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:57 PM</span>

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Venom47 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ballpython21 wrote:<BR> <P>why are guardians so bad i like mine whats wrong with em</P> <P>i think u guys are just being naive the guardians are meat shields and can do many taunts and take damage plus thet can do some agood damage in soloins so i say stop complaining</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't see much wrong with them either, I don't see the complaints that many people have about many classes.  What it seems to me is that people want all the classes to be exactly on par with each other, but yet there is complaints about everyone being the same.  If you really look at it, it really seems like people want their class to be how they envision their class.  The "its not fair that our gear breaks with skills and no one else's does" just seems like plain ol whining.  Does anyone have any idea the amount of whining that would come from other classes if they had that same trait implemented at this point?  You can't please everyone all the time and Sony knows this.. any sane person does.  No matter what is done to the game there will always be something to complain about, hence the forums. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>ballpython21 wrote:<BR> i personally am playing a lvl 21 barbarian guardian and i say he can do good damage and tank well. Most of the groups i have been in say it does very well in holding aggro. I think groups with wizardds and warlocks and high nukers are hard to  keep aggro off of them.<BR> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Great 2 level 20 somethings coming to the guard boards to tell everyone that nothing is wrong with our class..</P> <P>The thread is a question to the game devs asking how making the guardians play better will effect the game. it is not a thread about low level players who have not played the class long enough to even have the spells I am asking about to tell us nothing is wrong.</P> <P> </P>

[Exill]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Chogar wrote: <p>I thought Tower of Stone prevented both magic and melee damage while the other skills of this nature only blocked one of the two.  Mind you the 50% shield damage is extreme, 5% would be more reasonable if SOE wants the damaging effect to stay.</p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>You might be right.The damage done to shield does scale by spell level (Adept 1, Adept 3, Master 1) etc. Maybe they could have a more "fixed" amount of damage done to the shield such as:Adept 1 = 30% damage done to shield.Adept 3 = 20% damage done to shield.Master 1 = 10% damage done to shield.<p>Message Edited by Exill on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:40 AM</span>

[restinpea]

<DIV>__________________________________________________ ____</DIV> <DIV> <P>)Root themselvs<BR>)Slow themselvs<BR>)Decrease thier own DPS<BR>)Slow thier own attack speed<BR>)Kill themselvs, for reals<BR>)Destroy thier Shields after 2 Tower of stone uses.<BR>)what else...</P> <P>__________________________________________________ ____</P> <P> </P> <P>add  )Increase dmg done to our group with our 1337 intercept Skills</P></DIV>

[Greyto]

<P>Good Luck guys I hope the best for all of ya.</P> <P> </P> <P>Grey....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Raahl]

There are a lot of good points the OP is trying to make.  IMO Tower of Stone should not damage our shield.   Does any other Fighter class damage their equipment?   So are Guardians having to pay money to use this ability.

[Oneira]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greytoon wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P> <DIV>To put it simply, it's counterproductive to our goals to upset people. But at the same time, developers must be prepared to make changes that will be unpopular with some people if they believe they are making the game better and more appealing in the long run.</DIV> <P>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Anchor, and Wall of Might are good spells but why do they have to slow me?</P> <P>I guess one of the things that kind of bugs me is we do in fact have good spells, but for some reason the best ones all seem to have a negative to go with the positive.</P></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>I agree whole-heartedly with the OP on this one.  Guardian utilities have so many negatives to go with them that I simply don't use them.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And taunt resist makes life so much harder. . .because aggro management has become so much harder.  That SOE made aggro much more of an issue after LU 13 is fine, but the resist to taunts?  As a 28 guardian with adept 1s and a Master II in Shouting Cry, I probably lose aggro in a given combat 80% of the time and probably get it back 50% of the time.</FONT></P>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greytoon wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>ballpython21 wrote:<BR> i personally am playing a lvl 21 barbarian guardian and i say he can do good damage and tank well. Most of the groups i have been in say it does very well in holding aggro. I think groups with wizardds and warlocks and high nukers are hard to  keep aggro off of them.<BR> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Great 2 level 20 somethings coming to the guard boards to tell everyone that nothing is wrong with our class..</P> <P>The thread is a question to the game devs asking how making the guardians play better will effect the game. it is not a thread about low level players who have not played the class long enough to even have the spells I am asking about to tell us nothing is wrong.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>While normally I dont care for 'level discrimination' I have to agree with this one. At level 21 you have been an actual Guardian for 1 level. You dont even learn how to play the class properly IMO till your 30's. While I can tank effectively when in a full group it is my total inability to solo more that a solo blue mob that makes my guardian so unsatisfying to play. Now I have been told to upgrade all of my CAs to A3 (All my T5 taunts and major DD skills are already M2 or A3) and wear a full set of cobalt. Thats absurd. I should not have to outfit myself in T6 legendary gear (already wearing imbued Ebon Chest and Pants btw) and upgrade all of my skills to A3 just to be able to solo a white single mob or 2 blue solo mobs. <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as Tower of Stone goes I have yet to level enough to get access to that skill, as my Guardian has been placed on harvest patrol since LU13, but I have to agree. What other classes special skills break their equipment? Maybe we need Shield Quivers so we can carry around 10 or so shields everywhere we go...have the NPC merchants start selling them in stacks of 20 maybe? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my mind this has nothing to do with 'he can do this, why cant I', this has to do with the fact that prior to LU13, I logged onto my Guardian and enjoyed my playtime. Now my warlock serves in that role, and that is just sad. I wanted to be a Guardian prior to beta, played one in beta and created one once the game went live..now he's just a 250 pound barbarian paperweight. </DIV>

[Greyto]

well renewed so looks like I will be around a day or two longer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />