Well LU16 was a welcome surprise.

[MrDiz]

Anchor and Wall of might now are way more useful. On a pull that I picked up adds on I cast these two. Pretty effective. The reduction in enemy DPS combined with the temporary mitigation boost turned what would have been an evac moment into a nice controlable encounter. These alone made me feel like a 'safer' tank if not a better tank. On a long fight or on many fights it wont make a difference, but on bad pulls or adds coming we may have just recieved a nice survivability boost.Still having trouble getting the aggro at the start of the fight. They are running for the healer mid-pull way too often if they resist the AE taunt.Guardian sphere and the sentry/intervene lines are still next to useless imho.BUT WHAT THE HELL IS WITH THE ARMOR? Bright blue!!!??? Im a halfling with white hair and blue armor! I look like a smurf!

[Axor]

<P>Guardian sphere is now my favourite spell.</P> <P>Its kicking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and will make us the Raid MT again =D im happy and reactivating my account =D</P>

[Nemi]

<FONT color=#ffff00>Why are the mobs running for the healer? Are you casting heals before pulling? Why?</FONT>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>Nemi wrote:<FONT color=#ffff00>Why are the mobs running for the healer? Are you casting heals before pulling? Why?</FONT> <hr></blockquote>We have found that if the tank survives the pull it generally makes the encounter more successful.

[Exill]

I agree, I am very pleased with the changes made to our class with LU16. Thank you SoE.<div></div>

[Belgor]

<DIV>Just a question from someone who cant check. What does Guardian Sphere actualy do now?</DIV>

[MrDiz]

Its like a group intercede. The idea is if you loose aggro you can still 'tank' because your taking the damage for the group anyway and unlike intercede you dont have to change targets to cast it.

[Tro]

<DIV>Well I logged in yesterday evening and to my suprise, My Cobalt Vanguard Armor is in fact brighter now.. I had to laugh though.. is it just me or does it kinda look like blue re-enforced plastic? I mean there is absolutely no texture to it.. it's just a shiny blue..</DIV>

[Tro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrDizzi wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Why are the mobs running for the healer? Are you casting heals before pulling? Why?</FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>We have found that if the tank survives the pull it generally makes the encounter more successful.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not sure what subclass healer you are talking about but I noticed on the LU 16 notes that one Templar Spell had its associated hate removed completely. I forget which one it was but if it is a heal spell and one that is typically used to help the tank have a better chance to survive a pull, then I would think the healer would not draw that much attention initially.. If that was the spell used then it appears broke.. </P> <P>Just a thought...</P><p>Message Edited by Trook on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Guardian sphere will probably be adjusted, imho.  Who knows, I've been wrong before.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:15 AM</span>

[Prufro]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Guardian sphere will probably be adjusted, imho.  Who knows, I've been wrong before.</div><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class="date_text">11-10-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Why do you even post crap like this?  To increase your post count?  "I assume there's a chance that maybe the devs will think about looking into possibly adjusting one guardian skill, and it might be Guadian Sphere even though they just changed it and are probably happy with the way it is.  I could be wrong though." On topic: i haven't had a chance to really try out the changes yet, i was stuck outside 4 raid instances last night because our guild MT is 58, MA is 60, and other than those two roles i'm worth a pile of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in a raid situation.  The only situation i saw the aoe root for was stopping adds in their tracks, but it's only for what, 15s?  And you still have the chance that they were rooted outside of taunt range, especially with giants.</span><div></div>

[Urglu]

<P>Guardian Sphere won't be changed, they actually struck a proper balance.  The first time I used it was a pretty ugly situation and it saved me big time, stoneskin absorbed some big hits at a key time.  Used it about 10 more times during that grind to test it out and the proc of stoneskin is no where near reliable or consistent enough to be utilized effectively as a self-ward or anything.  </P> <P>I think adding the stoneskin does make using GS slightly more reasonable, albeit still in limited situations since if you use it while you are also getting beat on, and stoneskin doesn't proc right away, you're dead. </P> <P> </P>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Axor wrote:<BR> <P>Guardian sphere is now my favourite spell.</P> <P>Its kicking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and will make us the Raid MT again =D im happy and reactivating my account =D</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ya know, statements like these are what devs just love to see so nerfs can come out.  Why dontcha brag about soloing Terrorantula?  There will never be one certain class for MT only.  Read the words and understand them.  There is going to never ever be one subclass that only MTs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Gaige is right.  If it is deemed too powerful, it will be adjusted.  Tell ya what, lets not HELP THE DEVS OUT BY BLOWING HORNS AND BANGING GONGS WHEN SOMETHING POSITIVE IMPROVES US.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:35 AM</span>

[EvilIguana9]

<span><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:<blockquote><hr>Nemi wrote:<font color="#ffff00">Why are the mobs running for the healer? Are you casting heals before pulling? Why?</font> <div></div><hr></blockquote>We have found that if the tank survives the pull it generally makes the encounter more successful.<hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  That's what we have been doing wrong this whole time.  On a serious note it's good to see that you guys got some improvements.</span><div></div>

[Timzil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV>Guardian sphere will probably be adjusted, imho.  Who knows, I've been wrong before.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree with Gaige. Guardian Sphere should be adjusted so that it reflects damage back to the attacker. That would help slightly with our DPS gap.</P> <P>Same thing for ToS. It should be adjusted to remove the shield damage so that it can be used more than twice per play session, and it should reflect a portion of the attackers damage back at them.</P>

[Benfyn]

<P>Can you imagine if Guardian Sphere gave us a chance to riposte all the incoming attacks to the whole group as well? Now that would be nice. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Seriously though, Guardian Sphere is working well but it's one of those abilities that you shouldn't have to use unless things go bad or are about to go bad. And there does seem to be a limit of 5 stone skin procs per use. It just about killed me last night when stoneskin stopped procing and the second set of adds was on our ranger. </P> <P>30 seconds never seemed so long.</P> <P>Oh and I'll see your "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is up with the bright blue cobalt?" and raise you a "why the hell am I wearing crotchless greaves?"</P> <P>Krrrath, lvl 60 Guardian of Kithicor</P>

[Benfyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV>Guardian sphere will probably be adjusted, imho.  Who knows, I've been wrong before.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No need to adjust it. It still has a good chance to kill us. As long as it cripples us, slows us, weakens our gear or kills us then it's working as SOE intended. Besides, why would they change it if they didn't think it was for the best. :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P>Krrrath, lvl 60 Guardian of Kithicor</P>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrDizzi wrote:<BR><BR><BR>We have found that if the tank survives the pull it generally makes the encounter more successful.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Now <EM>that</EM> was funny.   :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Alephin<BR></P>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Benfynyn wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV>Guardian sphere will probably be adjusted, imho.  Who knows, I've been wrong before.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No need to adjust it. It still has a good chance to kill us. As long as it cripples us, slows us, weakens our gear or kills us then it's working as SOE intended. Besides, why would they change it if they didn't think it was for the best. :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P>Krrrath, lvl 60 Guardian of Kithicor</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Speaking of gear since cobalt now looks like a blue plastic suit does that make it cheaper to repair?

[Vandileir]

<P>So with these changes, there is now a chance that a proc will cause me to kill my self slower with this ability?</P> <P>Wow, thank you SOE. But there is just one other thing... </P> <P>This does nothing to change why I gave up my Guard. End of story. </P> <P>The class is still dull. If this is to change, please remove the negative effects that cause me to be rooted and slowed to the point where I feel like I am just standing there praying that MD procs enough times to keep aggro. Assuming the mob didnt resist the taunt right off the bat. It doesnt make matters any better that I spend most of the battle stunned either. </P> <P>Honestly, tanking on my guard right now is <STRONG>Dumb Luck</STRONG> at this point, between taunt resists and all sorts of procs. I should not have to depend on my emergency abilities every battle. There for EMERGENCIES. Infact, if I play my toon right, Guardian sphere should never come into play. I shouldnt need protection skills if I'm good. Doesnt help that they all still suck. </P> <P>Quite frankly I'm not impressed. Half the Guards I know are praising SOE. Why? Because they threw us a bone in the form of a mediocre change, that really doesnt make the class any better. Were so desperate for change that we'll take anything at this point. Guards are plate tanks. They can still tank. They can still be raid MT. Technically we can do it. But the simple fact is that the class is just rediculously [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing boring.</P> <P>Play another class. Play a brawler. If you come back and say honestly that you have more fun tanking on your Guard than you do any other tank class, I will never say anything bad about Guards again.</P>

[Veshtan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vandileir wrote:<BR> <P>So with these changes, there is now a chance that a proc will cause me to kill my self slower with this ability?</P> <P>Wow, thank you SOE. But there is just one other thing... </P> <P>This does nothing to change why I gave up my Guard. End of story. </P> <P>The class is still dull. If this is to change, please remove the negative effects that cause me to be rooted and slowed to the point where I feel like I am just standing there praying that MD procs enough times to keep aggro. Assuming the mob didnt resist the taunt right off the bat. It doesnt make matters any better that I spend most of the battle stunned either. </P> <P>Honestly, tanking on my guard right now is <STRONG>Dumb Luck</STRONG> at this point, between taunt resists and all sorts of procs. I should not have to depend on my emergency abilities every battle. There for EMERGENCIES. Infact, if I play my toon right, Guardian sphere should never come into play. I shouldnt need protection skills if I'm good. Doesnt help that they all still suck. </P> <P>Quite frankly I'm not impressed. Half the Guards I know are praising SOE. Why? Because they threw us a bone in the form of a mediocre change, that really doesnt make the class any better. Were so desperate for change that we'll take anything at this point. Guards are plate tanks. They can still tank. They can still be raid MT. Technically we can do it. But the simple fact is that the class is just rediculously [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing boring.</P> <P>Play another class. Play a brawler. If you come back and say honestly that you have more fun tanking on your Guard than you do any other tank class, I will never say anything bad about Guards again.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree with this for the most part, Vand.  They did a few little tweaks and some people are eating it up and so they are happily patting themselves on the back i'm sure for making this tasty little bone for us to chew on and thinking they won the war of shutting us up so they don't have to actually do some REAL work and fix our class the way it needs to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That aside, the changes they made were nice, if small.  The changes to Guardian's Sphere and Anchor i actually really like, the problem is that once again, they're making changes to our 1% utilities and not actually fixing what we've been complaining about and what is broken.  The lack of anything useful for 99% of the time.  Or at least that's my biggest complaint.  We've got some nice arts but their lack of usefulness for the majority of the time we are playing really cripples our class.  This needs to be addressed or I still see our class as being monumentally broken.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>You know, I never once said it would be nerfed.  I said adjusted.  I find it funny that you assume the worst.  What I actually was referring to was the fact that its proc is unreliable.</P> <P>/shrug.</P> <P>That said if the ability does become so overpowering as to make guardians the only raid MT, I think it would see some changes in the opposite direction.</P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:32 AM</span>

[Benfyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>You know, I never once said it would be nerfed.  I said adjusted.  I find it funny that you assume the worst.  What I actually was referring to was the fact that its proc is unreliable.</P> <P>/shrug.</P> <P>That said if the ability does become so overpowering as to make guardians the only raid MT, I think it would see some changes in the opposite direction.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:32 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If any one ability made any one class the only choice for raid MT it should be changed, no question. Guardian Sphere is not one such ability though. It's subtle but effective, if well-timed. Not in any danger of being an overpowering CA. In fact, if it wasn't for me going on about how cool it was, and how well it was working, my group wouldn't have known it was doing anything hehe. I was making them scroll up to see the messages too. </P> <P>Not like we've had a lot to be excited about lately.</P> <P> </P> <P>Krrrath, lvl 60 Guardian of Kithicor.</P>

[Timzil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>You know, I never once said it would be nerfed.  I said adjusted.  I find it funny that you assume the worst.  What I actually was referring to was the fact that its proc is unreliable.</P> <P>/shrug.</P> <P>That said if the ability does become so overpowering as to make guardians the only raid MT, I think it would see some changes in the opposite direction.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:32 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I knew you were looking out for us, babe. xox</DIV>

[MrDiz]

<DIV>I like the description of guardian sphere but im still not getting any use out of it. Not sure i like it, but it might just take time for me to get into it. Anyway, i still give a big thumbs up to the change to anchor and wall of might. Altho im still not sure  that "rooting" the mobs isnt a little too 'spell caster'ish for me..... but it definately helps for those many many times when aggro gets away from me. Rooting them and spamming the group with a "move the hell away" message seems pretty effective.</DIV>

[lostsandman]

<DIV>i am happy with the changes but we still need to more changes to make our class "fun".<BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>One BIG thing which is taking fun away for me is the root on our spells. We have 3 spells which roots us and it makes it very hard for to reactive quickly.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>I can understand the root component in Anchor, the mob is rooted so are we and i am willing to live with that.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>But i really really hope the remove the root form maddening defence and wall of might. They are not necessary.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>Last night, i was in group and had both of them active, then some mob poped. i had to candle 2 spells before i cna move and the wizard was almost dead before i got there (ok guardian sphere helped!)</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>So i think removing these roots will go long way to make my class "fun" again.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>I have come to terms being "not the nest tank anymore" thing.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>But this means i don't always get groups now or have to sit out a raid.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>In those time i want to solo, so pleas give me some more abilities to solo better. </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>One suggestion here may be to get rid of the reduction of dps in some  of our buffs eg wall of might.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you for listening</DIV><p>Message Edited by lostsandman on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:24 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<P>Still out of town.   Been gone all week.   The responses here have me hopeful.  </P> <P> </P>

[FrostDragon]

<DIV>None of the changes helped the mid lvl game only the high end.    Building towers the other nite my Tailor guardian  got mowed down by 4 lvl 21 down arrows at the tower.    I had 8 lvls on them and killed 2 of them before i dropped...3 of them were adds and I was in defence mode.     I even tried to run at the end but guardians don't run they waddle  forcefully.   My defence is too low and my DPS is a joke.    I even get people laughing watching a Guard solo.    Down arrow is still epic encounter.     Carbonite armor feyiron fulg is all a joke if you dont have the rares you cant tank now</DIV>

[Vandileir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FrostDragon wrote:<BR> <DIV>None of the changes helped the mid lvl game only the high end.    Building towers the other nite my Tailor guardian  got mowed down by 4 lvl 21 down arrows at the tower.    I had 8 lvls on them and killed 2 of them before i dropped...3 of them were adds and I was in defence mode.     I even tried to run at the end but guardians don't run they waddle  forcefully.   My defence is too low and my DPS is a joke.    I even get people laughing watching a Guard solo.    Down arrow is still epic encounter.     Carbonite armor feyiron fulg is all a joke if you dont have the rares you cant tank now</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This doesnt change much later on. DPS is a joke and an add WILL kill you if you dont run. If they didnt make chameleon totems scale levels, I'd never lumber out of a tradeskill instance on my Guard. </P> <P>FYI: No help is coming. No changes to this issue will be made.<BR></P>

[Zensi]

Well maybe for the top lvls its nice, but for us down in the lvl 30s they just bloody nerfed us. They took the parry increase away from Wall of flesh, and instead gave it the physical mitigation buff of entrench. Whoppie do,  instead, i get to slow down the mobs more with entrench, WOPPIE DOO! <div></div>

[RafaelSmith]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[Jakerf]

<DIV>While the changes are welcome it does not change the fact that I can no longer stand to play mine.  We used to be a class that had little dps and no utilities but excelled in the mt role.  At this point we have less dps, still no utilities, and are now average mt's.   I watch with envy as other classes solo mobs that would wipe me every time and at the same time I have no role in a group or raid if I am not playing mt.  Every other warrior class is a better choice for a second fighter in a group, and is often at least as good a choice for the mt role.  While I play my newly minted mage, I occasionally check the number of Guards on the server and the number seems like it gets samller every night.</DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>Played for a couple hours last night with a Dirge and a Fury.   We tooled around Everfrost and went as far back as the PermaFrost doors.    I'm not sure what was changed, but it seems like things were good again.  Tonight I'll test in either LavaStorm or Sinking Sands.</P> <P>Solo'ing still sucks though.</P> <P>I like the SOGA models.</P>

[aislynn00]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <P>Played for a couple hours last night with a Dirge and a Fury.   We tooled around Everfrost and went as far back as the PermaFrost doors.    I'm not sure what was changed, but it seems like things were good again.  Tonight I'll test in either LavaStorm or Sinking Sands.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Drop the dirge (he was undoubtedly maintaining a hate-increasing buff on you) and instead invite a conjuror, a necromancer, a wizard, and a warlock.  Ask them to do some real DPS, both single-target as well as AE, at all times keeping pace with you in terms of power spent.  </P> <P>Exercise 1:  Try to hold aggro.</P> <P>Exercise 2:  Lose aggro, then try to regain it again (without using Rescue or Reinforcement.)</P> <P>Note:  Doing exercise 2 simultaneously with exercise 1 is acceptable (and very likely.)</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:19 AM</span>

[mochl]

<span><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote: <div></div>Drop the dirge (he was undoubtedly maintaining a hate-increasing buff on you) and instead invite a conjuror, a necromancer, a wizard, and a warlock.  Ask them to do some real DPS, both single-target as well as AE, at all times keeping pace with you in terms of power spent.   <p>Exercise 1:  Try to hold aggro.</p> <p>Exercise 2:  Lose aggro, then try to regain it again (without using Rescue or Reinforcement.)</p> <p>Note:  Doing exercise 2 simultaneously with exercise 1 is acceptable (and very likely.)</p> <hr></blockquote>Sure, not a problem. -Assuage on the Warlock, they usually tick off more mobs than anyone else at any give time. -Bow pull -Master 2 Protect -Inflaming Defense -Casters generally start in with their dps now -Adept 3 Confront - Goading Assault Adept 3 -Tremor Adept 3 -Plant Toss in a Commanding Aura or two here and there (dont think it has quite the hate increase that it used to but i think it still helps out) and you wont lose aggro that often. There's always going to be that one resisted taunt or whatever but generally thats what i do when pulling and the people that have grouped with me in the past seem to think it works out. No fighter class can keep a mob off of a caster if he or she is opening up too soon. Our job is to taunt, their job is to make sure your taunts are just good enough. Now group me  with an assassin or a button mashing swahbuckler and its a whole different story. One thing though, there isnt a caster alive (or any class for that matter) that can keep up with me in terms of power spent. I swear Guardians are the Gods of personal power draining.</span><div></div>

[Wasuna]

<P>I did Scornfeathers Roost with a Warlock 2 levels below me the other day. I has Assauge Adept 3 on him. Master 2 Protect, Master 2 HTL thingie (I'm 57) and Adept 3 everything else hate related with Master Blast thrown in for some help. I use a Pristinge Ironwood Club which equals a Cobalt weapon. I lost agro on every single group after the first mob. I could hold agro on one mob but anything after that I could not hold agro. The worst part is that I was always OOP and he would end the fight almost completely full power.</P> <P>The changes helped I guess. I can't really say that I have had a single instance where anything that was changed saved me or a group member at all. I just play with Guardian Sphere but have to tell my group that I used it and that it actually is on them and did something for me. The root one I haven't notice helping. I use it but groups tend to keep kind of tight anyway except for fights that have the AOE stuns.</P>

[Krisp]

Pure dps can always pull agro off a tank. Its part of playing a dps class to learn how to find the agro line and stay just below it. That will always be the case. The question is, for us, where is our agro line and how do we compare with other tanks we are supposed to be equal to. After LU16 we are way below Paladins and Berserkers. I havent grouped with an SK yet so I dont know there. But as it stacks up now we have equal mitigation, less dps, less utility and less agro control than Paladins and Berserkers. Its even more pronounced against a casting mob like Rahotep. He cleaned my clock twice, wasnt even close. We backed up took a look at the logs put in a paladin 2 levels lower than me with lower teir gear and she never dropped below 80% health.I know that wisdom is playing a part in the agro control portion of the equation. I know that tanks have now split up the resistance specialties and guardians are better against fire, paladins against divine and so on. The main problem is Sony took away our defining ability of tanking and are discussing balancing us with utility. Frankly, I cant see them coming up with something on par with rez, group FD, evac, rampage. (all things other tanks get) and honestly we never wanted that. We just wanted to tank and be the best at taking damage. Here are my ideas on things that would help us tremdously;Give us the ability to buff to a certain resist. Dont lock us in to only fire. (side effect to defense stance) Give us the ability to use a melee resisitant potion and a casting resistant potion. Make Rescue a group target spell. Leave in the re use timer.Change the root on Inflaming Defense to a heavy snare. Keep whatever utility ideas yall are brewing.Leave Guardian Sphere as it is right now.StarkeLeader of Alternate EclipseOasis

[Raahl]

<DIV>Tonight should include a full group, including a wizard.</DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Krispen,</P> <P>               Wisdom plays no role, whatsoever, on aggro control or more aggro. Wisdom buffs resists, and in Paladins and other healers it also buffs power. Also, Paladins do not have the same mitigation as Guards.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffffff>Rahotep is a caster mob. Paladins are the better tank at Caster mobs. Thats our role. Shes going to take less damage than you because her resists are better, as it should be. If you were tanking a physical damage mob she would take alot more damage than you, as it should be. </FONT></SPAN>Guards have more evasion and mitigation that Paladins. In terms of evasion, you guys have a good 8% more than Paladins. You see, for plate fighters, defense and agility dictate a tanks evasion. Paladins and Guards might have the same agility, but in terms of +def you guys have much more than us.</P> <P>Your def stance buffs +parry and +def. Ours buffs wisdom, which gives us more resists. The mitigation on both is the exact same.</P> <P>As for mitigation, you guys get this:</P> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00>Call of Defense: (Level 52) - <FONT color=#ccff00>Increases defense of group (AE) </FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00>Commanding Aura (Level 54) - </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>Increases Mitigation of Group vs Crush by #, Increases Mitigation of group vs slsh/prce by #</FONT><BR><FONT color=#6666cc>Adept I - 389, 486<BR><FONT color=#6666ff>Adept III - 454, 567</FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ccff00><FONT color=#ffff00>Plant (Level 60) -</FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffff33>AdeptIII - -16% defense/dps, 840 mitigation</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00>Steadfast Stance (Level 5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>Decrease Slsh/Prce/Crsh 17.4, Increase Def & Parry#,Increase Mitigation#, </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffffff>Palys get one +def buff. Palys take more physical damage than Guards, without question. Guards take more spell damage, without question.</FONT></SPAN></P></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>In terms of evasion, you guys have a good 8% more than Paladins.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>uzhiel feathered serpent can you tell me how this was determined?  I'm a bit slow with the numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Sure. </P> <P>The evasion of plate tanks is calculated by taking into account agility and defense. Crusaders have the least DEF of any plate tank. We get one DEF buff, but Warriors get more, specially Guards. The agility of a Guard and a Paly can be equal, but the defense of a Guardian and a Paladin is much more pronounced. Its not uncommon to see guards self buff themselves to 47% evasion, but Palys dont come close to that.</P> <P>In fact, Palys evasion goes down as they level <EM><STRONG>at a much faster rate</STRONG></EM> because our def buff is tier 5. We dont get any tier 6 def buffs. This is one of the reasons why Palys and Sk's were given wards, heals, and lifetaps. Its supposed to compensate for our lower hit points, mitigation, and avoidance.</P> <P>Crusaders strength is based off resists. Thats our cup of tea. Physical mobs are intended to be tanked by Guards, Bers, Monks, and Bruisers. We can still tank those, but not as well. Against caster mobs, the Crusader is the tank of choice.</P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:56 AM</span>

[Krisp]

The point on the Rahotep example is the gap between Guardian and Paladin is huge. Guardians get higher melee mitigation but when stacked up it amounts to about a 5-10% difference in damage taken. The paladin can comletely resist the Divine nuke and reduce the total damage taken by 35% and make the damage much less spikey and therefore much easier to control with heals. Expand this out to all the other nuking mobs in the game. Then take into account the discrepancy in utility and agro control. What you are left with as a role for guardians is tanking melee only mobs and when you do you better back off your dps classes or its going to start to agro bounce.I am fine with setting up a system where all fighters, regardless of class, can get to the same end result in effectiveness. Just thru different means. Avoidance, mitigation, resists. But thats not what we have right now. Right now guardians are the lowest tank in agro control, dps and utility. We are subpar on mitigating total damage on any mob that nukes anything other than fire. And we are the best in mitigation on mobs who are totally melee damage. And there is nothign wrong really with the rankings themselves. Its the large gap between us and other fighters in each scenario thats troubling.As far as the Wisdom comment, I was under the impression wisdom helped your reistance checks on spells you cast. Therefore a low wisdom meant taunt gets resisted more. I know personally it seemed to help a great deal when I buffed my wisdom. Could of been a fluke though.

[Raahl]

<DIV>Group last night:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian (me) (46)</DIV> <DIV>Troubador (46)</DIV> <DIV>Paladin (40)</DIV> <DIV>Fury (36)</DIV> <DIV>Wizard (41)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Went into Lavastorm and worked our way up to the area with a lot of goblins, rumblers (big rock snakes) and the flying oozes.  I think the mobs were mostly blue with some whites.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kept aggro without any issues.   Healer had little problem keeping me healed.   Everything was going very well till our Paladin brought me 3 ^^^ presents.  I then had trouble keeping aggro off our Fury.  Soon he and I were dead.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was great fun.  I was getting stunned at least 1-2 times each combat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Over the next few days we will test out the mobs in Sinking Sands or CT.  They should be more of a challenge.</DIV>