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Dedi

11-10-2005, 03:04 AM

<div></div>Try to keep in mind I don’t speak for all guardians, nor all fighters. These are observations from a humble level 58 guardian in a family guild that can take out most non contested T5 raid mobs. First, I want to clearly define what I think is wrong with the guardian class. <ol><li>Lack of solo ability/utility</li><li>Our utility (protection) line’s uses are too limited.</li><li>Guardians are the only tanks without some form of self heal.</li><li>Too many of our abilities cripple us, making them useless when not in a group.</li></ol>Lack of solo ability/utility:Let me be very clear here, I can solo. However, using non legendary gear soloing is very difficult as a guardian. It can be done, but try watching an average equipped guardian try to solo something remotely challenging. It really is quite painful. I believe the main reason for our bad solo performance is that many of our defensive buffs come with a rather large offensive downside, making them group only skills. For instance, my 30 second buffs give decent defensive boosts, but they slow my attack speed, snare or root me, and lower the amount of dps I do. Considering these are only 30 second buffs with 3 minute recast timers, why is the huge downside necessary? If the offensive penalties were removed, they could be used while soloing, and they wouldn’t hurt our ability to hold agro any more through DPS.With LU 16 one of our 30 second buffs is being changed into an AE root/debuff. This is exactly the kind of thing the guardian class needed. We have no tricks. This gives us something that resembles utility. Combat utility means guardians may actually have to think a bit before blindly mashing buttons. My only complaint is I don’t think this will be useful soloing because it roots us too. Without the root component, it could function as a makeshift crowd control utility.Our protection line is too limitedI honestly think that SOE is trying to fix this problem. The last patch makes a serious attempt to make these more useful. I’m reserving judgment until I can test them out myself. However our Sentry line wasn’t touched, and I guarantee you that line is one of the most useless in the entire game. As ‘Protectors’ of the group, we should not INCREASE the damage it receives.Guardians are the only tank without some form of self healI was a little surprised to hear this. As far as I know, it’s true though. Even Berserkers get a fairly nice regen ability. I feel that since we are the most defensive tank, we should get something in this area. It could be a lot things… A ward… Regen similar to zerkers, a small reactive maybe?Too many of our abilities cripple usWe have at least 3 abilities that root us. One of them is our main taunt. In order for us to hold agro, we are ALWAYS rooted. The ability is toggleable, so if I need to reposition it isn’t that hard, but I still feel its unnecessary. I can see the need for this skill to have some kind of penalty, but a root is too much since this ability is REQUIRED to hold agro reliably. Simply changing this to a snare would allow us to make minor positioning adjustments without having to waste a lot of power and needless clicks. I also need to mention that our short term buffs that root us actually require us to right click on the little icon in the maintained window and cancel to be able to move again. For some classes this may not be that big of a deal. However when you are tanking in a raid or even a single group, it can be very difficult to cancel 3 buffs just to reposition a mob because pathing is buggy.Fixes I would like to see:<ol><li>Change the root on maddening defense to a snare.</li><li>Give us some form of limited healing to Balance us with other tanks.</li><li>Change the sentry line to something that will be used. It’s part of our class defining line and it truly is worthless.</li><li>Remove or lower some of the offensive penalties on our short duration buffs. This improves our soloing and ability to hold agro while grouping. And honestly I think our DPS is low enough without having to debuff ourselves.</li><li>Lower the cast time on the taunting assault line. For some reason even though all of our combat art casting times were reduced to half a second, Taunting assault had its cast time increased significantly. One of the few advantages that guardians have over brawlers is our extra AE taunt. I don’t feel that lowering the cast time on this skill will unbalance us.</li><li>Tower of stone should not destroy our shields. I'm begging you here. At the very lease please explain why it is necessary.</li></ol>In conclusion, since we will never be the ‘best’ tank again, I feel strongly that we should be given more solo ability and useful utility. If all fighters are to tank equally, we all need interesting flavor and comparable DPS and utility.Thank you for keeping this thread flame bait free.A humble guardian of Unrest<div></div>

Nemi

11-10-2005, 03:10 AM

Excellent well thought out post that addresses specific issues with skills. /support Message Edited by Nemi on 11-09-2005 10:11 PM

Dart

11-10-2005, 03:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dedite wrote: Try to keep in mind I don’t speak for all guardians, nor all fighters. These are observations from a humble level 58 guardian in a family guild that can take out most non contested T5 raid mobs. First, I want to clearly define what I think is wrong with the guardian class. <OL> <LI>Lack of solo ability/utility</LI> <LI>Our utility (protection) line’s uses are too limited.</LI> <LI>Guardians are the only tanks without some form of self heal.</LI> <LI>Too many of our abilities cripple us, making them useless when not in a group.</LI></OL> Lack of solo ability/utility: Let me be very clear here, I can solo. However, using non legendary gear soloing is very difficult as a guardian. It can be done, but try watching an average equipped guardian try to solo something remotely challenging. It really is quite painful. I believe the main reason for our bad solo performance is that many of our defensive buffs come with a rather large offensive downside, making them group only skills. For instance, my 30 second buffs give decent defensive boosts, but they slow my attack speed, snare or root me, and lower the amount of dps I do. Considering these are only 30 second buffs with 3 minute recast timers, why is the huge downside necessary? If the offensive penalties were removed, they could be used while soloing, and they wouldn’t hurt our ability to hold agro any more through DPS. With LU 16 one of our 30 second buffs is being changed into an AE root/debuff. This is exactly the kind of thing the guardian class needed. We have no tricks. This gives us something that resembles utility. Combat utility means guardians may actually have to think a bit before blindly mashing buttons. My only complaint is I don’t think this will be useful soloing because it roots us too. Without the root component, it could function as a makeshift crowd control utility. Our protection line is too limited I honestly think that SOE is trying to fix this problem. The last patch makes a serious attempt to make these more useful. I’m reserving judgment until I can test them out myself. However our Sentry line wasn’t touched, and I guarantee you that line is one of the most useless in the entire game. As ‘Protectors’ of the group, we should not INCREASE the damage it receives. Guardians are the only tank without some form of self heal I was a little surprised to hear this. As far as I know, it’s true though. Even Berserkers get a fairly nice regen ability. I feel that since we are the most defensive tank, we should get something in this area. It could be a lot things… A ward… Regen similar to zerkers, a small reactive maybe? Too many of our abilities cripple us We have at least 3 abilities that root us. One of them is our main taunt. In order for us to hold agro, we are ALWAYS rooted. The ability is toggleable, so if I need to reposition it isn’t that hard, but I still feel its unnecessary. I can see the need for this skill to have some kind of penalty, but a root is too much since this ability is REQUIRED to hold agro reliably. Simply changing this to a snare would allow us to make minor positioning adjustments without having to waste a lot of power and needless clicks. I also need to mention that our short term buffs that root us actually require us to right click on the little icon in the maintained window and cancel to be able to move again. For some classes this may not be that big of a deal. However when you are tanking in a raid or even a single group, it can be very difficult to cancel 3 buffs just to reposition a mob because pathing is buggy. Fixes I would like to see: <OL> <LI>Change the root on maddening defense to a snare.</LI> <LI>Give us some form of limited healing to Balance us with other tanks.</LI> <LI>Change the sentry line to something that will be used. It’s part of our class defining line and it truly is worthless.</LI> <LI>Remove or lower some of the offensive penalties on our short duration buffs. This improves our soloing and ability to hold agro while grouping. And honestly I think our DPS is low enough without having to debuff ourselves.</LI> <LI>Lower the cast time on the taunting assault line. For some reason even though all of our combat art casting times were reduced to half a second, Taunting assault had its cast time increased significantly. One of the few advantages that guardians have over brawlers is our extra AE taunt. I don’t feel that lowering the cast time on this skill will unbalance us.</LI> <LI>Tower of stone should not destroy our shields. I'm begging you here. At the very lease please explain why it is necessary. </LI></OL> In conclusion, since we will never be the ‘best’ tank again, I feel strongly that we should be given more solo ability and useful utility. If all fighters are to tank equally, we all need interesting flavor and comparable DPS and utility. Thank you for keeping this thread flame bait free. A humble guardian of Unrest <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> 5 stars if I could, well thought out. I agree on the point about guards being the only fighter with no form of healing. I often bring this up as a counterpoint, if monks get a mend to compensate for damage spikes, then guards should get a HoT heal to compensate for the steady stream of damage. If we want equality that is............. right?

Burningho

11-10-2005, 06:52 AM

Great post. I agree with the OP 100%.

boucani

11-10-2005, 08:24 AM

I totally agree with the OP. Thx. Rustan (guard 47) Lavastorm

Etherium

11-10-2005, 09:52 AM

<DIV>Agree. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo and small group we take damage more often and for a longer period of time(it takes us longer to kill than a comparable level tank in most cases). This is where I feel we fail.</DIV>

Drulak

11-10-2005, 01:44 PM

This Post is spot on. 100% agree and i do hope that dev's read this one.

Tro

11-10-2005, 04:32 PM

<DIV> I agree very nice post.. but you left out one very important thing (IMO). Resisted Taunts.. This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.. Still baffles me as to why this was implemented. I am not saying that Guardian tanuts should not be resisted.. I am saying ALL figther taunts should NOT be resited period. By eliminating resisted taunts across the board does not cause any kind of fighter imbalance..</DIV>

Twoof

11-10-2005, 05:08 PM

I agree with all the above points as well...<div></div>

Timzil

11-10-2005, 08:40 PM

Aye, good post. Not so sure we need heals though. Solo ability was the last thing on my mind when choosing the Guardian class, and TBH, I haven't had any issues soloing content that is well suited for individuals. I think if our other skills ever become rounded enough to put our DPS and tanking on par with other fighters, then improved solo ability will be a natural biproduct without needing heals, or specifically targeting solo skills. IMO, the devs should focus on our shields and shielding abilities to salvage the class while retaining the Guardian flavor. Take away the shield damage component from ToS as you suggest so it becomes a skill that is used and not just banked for an emergency that never comes. Add a reflect damage component to it to increase our DPS as required. Remove the self debuffs from our short term defense skills for sure. Our DPS is already rock bottom, so why touch it at all. Add a reflect damage component or a chance of a stunning shield bash reposte to the short term defense skills or any skill that puts us in a shielding mode. That sort of thing.

11-10-2005, 09:11 PM

Great post!

JeffBship

11-10-2005, 09:22 PM

<DIV>Here's an idea...Zerkers get some skills which require a berzerk state and are good offensive skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How about get rid of the protection line and do something else instead...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. When HtL is up, any damage on a member of our group has a chance (50% ??) of giving us 'defensive rage' state for like 30sec or so.</DIV> <DIV>2. While 'defensive rage' is active...HtL changes from a reactive hate generator to a DoT type of thing...causes maybe 250 dps worth of hate to ALL mobs engaged with any group/raide member. All taunts generate twice as much hate. Maybe one additional taunt becomes available...an AoE (not encounter group) rescue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Screamin' 1

11-11-2005, 12:55 AM

/salute Very good post. <div></div>

Vandileir

11-11-2005, 01:21 AM

I got to agree 100%. Screw being the best. Just give me something to call my own. Screw main tanking anything. Just give me something to make soloing/questing less painful.

ToiletBomb

11-11-2005, 05:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trook wrote: <DIV> I agree very nice post.. but you left out one very important thing (IMO). Resisted Taunts.. This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.. Still baffles me as to why this was implemented. I am not saying that Guardian tanuts should not be resisted.. I am saying ALL figther taunts should NOT be resited period. By eliminating resisted taunts across the board does not cause any kind of fighter imbalance..</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> i'm sorry trook but if taunts weren't resisted it would simply be waaaaaaay to easy to hold aggro. As it is I rarely lose it. A resist is supposed to be something that happens that throws a wrench in the gears. Be ready to compensate for another taunt or increased CAs to make up the taunt lack in damage early. And please don't tell me you can't because when I use my long recast CAs early in the fight I put up enough aggro through damage to regain it. Resisted taunts make sense and keep it interesting. Why can't a mob chose to ignore our taunts in favor for something else? Just because I'm screaming at you doesn't necessarily mean you'll listen. Rienlos of Crushbone 51st Guardian

Hend

11-11-2005, 05:08 PM

Great post, Dedite. Kudos. :smileyhappy: Vork, 53 guardian

Thor

11-11-2005, 06:32 PM

<DIV>Indeed another good post with some concrete suggestions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can see some of the guardians here, like you and MrDizzi to name a few, have a good sense for what would bring back the fun and make us feel more useful again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some of you should reply to the QA-guy in this post: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=33715" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=33715</A></DIV> <DIV>Who knows if it helps but at least someone is asking for our feedback.</DIV>

Dedi

11-13-2005, 12:41 AM

As much as I hate it when my taunts get resisted, I accept that they are here to stay, and they make tanking alot less routine. Adding excitement to tanking is overall a good thing, and its important for us to understand that most fighters are affected equally on this matter. My main concern is getting our class balanced with other fighters. It seems the devs just don't understand why we are unhappy. They don't realize that there was a reason that brawlers didn't tank as well as guardians. That reason being they do substantially more DPS, and have a lot of extremely useful utility. Making us all equal tanks is fine if thats really what they think is necessary, but they have to balance the most defensive least utility fighter with the most offensive, most utility fighter. Honestly, I think the devs were just too rushed to do this properly. Many brawlers will come in and try to discredit the fact that there is an imbalance, but they know its true. Read their forums, especially the threads on tanking. You will see alot of posts on how MANY brawlers feel they are superior tanks when compared to plate classes. The wiser (not always the most vocal) brawlers do see an imbalance, Especially the ones who also play guardians too and understand just how little we have to work with. Overall most reasonable brawlers support DPS/utility enhancements for guardians, and I welcome your suggestions <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I don't support nerfs to other classes unless the circumstances are extreme. I don't feel that brawlers are the 'best' at tanking. I do feel that SOE needs to do more balancing of the fighter archtypes DPS and utility. You can't just balance one aspect (tanking) of the archtype and call it good because you are taking away the only reason to play the defensive tank. It's unfortunate there won't be much tanking variety in this game. But they can make us all interesting and useful, it will just take time. <div></div>