crusaders get another uneeded buff where is the love for the guards

[JNewby]

<DIV>- Crusaders, Mages, and Priests can now equip most symbols (censers, dolls, idols, orbs, steins, symbols, tablets, and tomes) in their ranged slot in addition to their secondary slot.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>those things are awesome... they took away our towersheilds our vanguard our def buffs our def stance.. and now the last advantage our tanged slot... and now it is the crusader advantage since those things are better then our stupid bows... this is such a slap in the face... and in turn they change our abilities.. Sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dedi]

Agree, They took away the advantage of tower shields, the best shields in the game. Agree, Paladins do have a slightly better defensive stance. I really like having a bow though.  I like pulling with a bow.  An Imbued ironwood bow has very nice stats, and can be obtained pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cheaply.  I'm okay with paladins being able to equip an extra slot.  I just fear this may give them a fairly nice mit advantage over us, but I haven't seen the items.  They can't really add mit to our bows to make up for it if these items do have alot of mit on them. <div></div>

[EvilIguana9]

[Removed for Content] are you guys smoking?  How is our defensive stance better?  Yours adds parry, ours adds 100 wis, otherwise they are identical.  Surely you don't mean the fact that we get two resists buffed to your one.  That was done because your resist, fire, is much more commonly encountered than either magic or divine.  And the range slot, note yours has an acrual ranged attack.  Are you whining because we get like 60 to our mitigation from ours?  Big whoop.  If it were up to me I'd let you guys use em too, but I'd also let US use bows.  Don't start the rhetoric about our ranged attack being spells.  We have TWO, count em TWO abilities with range (less range than a long bow I might add).  One of them is a 20 second recast, the other is a 60 second recast.  Actually that's not entirely correct, we do have a ranged AE attack, and it's nice for pulling linked encounters but it's only other use is basically just as normal ae damage.  They all use considerable amounts of power. I want to know why you think letting us have an item in the range slot is an uneeded change.  We already hurt for stats having to spread them out as much as we do.  The 60 mitigation we get from the idols is a drop in the bucket, we have no mitigation buffs of any kind like you guys do, and again we lack the parry buff on defense stance.  I have already explained in other threads the downsides to our heals and wards, don't bother bringing that up.  <div></div>

[Belgor]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <DIV>- Crusaders, Mages, and Priests can now equip most symbols (censers, dolls, idols, orbs, steins, symbols, tablets, and tomes) in their ranged slot in addition to their secondary slot.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>those things are awesome... they took away our towersheilds our vanguard our def buffs our def stance.. and now the last advantage our tanged slot... and now it is the crusader advantage since those things are better then our stupid bows... this is such a slap in the face... and in turn they change our abilities.. Sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>afaik you still have towershields, vanguard and a defensive stance... and you now have a buff that increases your parry instead of defense. So you are trying to say that giving crusaders (I thought it was brawlers that where your big #1 enemy) a ranged slot somehow even more makes you suck.</DIV>

[ToonAr]

<DIV>I for one, am glad that Palies are getting some changes made to their advantage. Good for them; they're another step closer to being more 'balanced'. Hopefully all fighters will be balanced (not *nerfed*) sooner rather than later. This a step in the right direction, but more work needs to be done for all the fighter classes to bring them closer into line. SoE still have alot of work to do...</DIV>

[blueduckie]

<DIV>I like using a bow however - symboles etc add mitigation and resist now - bow doesnt - I think all class should be able to fill all slots tho - The arguemtn magic and divine isnt used alot i disagree with - Alot of dmg is magic dmg. If mob casts is most likely uses magic dmg. So i dont think fire is used more both are pretty equal. I like how guardian is though. Mostly people who dont even play ask for things. Make our aggro a little better and the changes will be nice. 2 short cast mit buffs is going to be sexy. Also a Shorter cast debuff. That is like havign 3 buffs however this allows us to root mobs so those annoying adds wont run off to priests on inc but you can root them to you instead and keep them on you to work up there aggro while they are killed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Be happy and use what you get instead of griping about what others get IMO.</DIV>

[Wabit]

<P>smite and withering soulscream for paly resists...  heat seems to be far less used, ie: k'dal, darathar, sunchild (has he been killed yet???)...  2 resists > 1, with same mit boost, but parry > wis...  call the stance a draw...</P> <P>give crusaders abilty to equip a bow, and guards ability to equip a symbol...  there ya go plate tanks equal for that slot...</P> <P>i don't blame them for wanting the stats of a bow, its free stats for 99% of the fight,,,</P> <P>Wabit</P>

[Grantr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <DIV>- Crusaders, Mages, and Priests can now equip most symbols (censers, dolls, idols, orbs, steins, symbols, tablets, and tomes) in their ranged slot in addition to their secondary slot.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>those things are awesome... they took away our towersheilds our vanguard our def buffs our def stance.. and now the last advantage our tanged slot... and now it is the crusader advantage since those things are better then our stupid bows... this is such a slap in the face... and in turn they change our abilities.. Sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>    It was a making in work for months and was know far and wide that someday* they would get it.  So I dont see the whine in this at all.  Yeah sure they are somewhat better the bows.  Its not going to change it from going live being cried about on guard boards dude. <p>Message Edited by Grantron on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 AM</span>

[boucani]

<P>I have no probs with crusaders being improved.  But like the OP says, where is the love for guards???  Ide like to see some special attention to our utilities, shields, taunts.</P> <P> </P> <P>Rustan (guard 46) Lavastorm</P>

[Styk]

<DIV>Lol im suprised a pally had the balls to post here seeing that they are what the guards use to be pre lu13 ( due to amends and their group agro sieve buff they tank mostly for us now in raids, oh did i mention that they have a more powerful AE taunt then warriors too ? )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i see that they are changing Doom Judgement's secondary ability with something that generates massive agro? Yall guards should [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about their range slot and take a look at doom judgement after patch , their amends ability and their AE taunt </DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EvilIguana966 wrote:<BR>[Removed for Content] are you guys smoking?  How is our defensive stance better?  Yours adds parry, ours adds 100 wis, otherwise they are identical.  Surely you don't mean the fact that we get two resists buffed to your one.  That was done because your resist, fire, is much more commonly encountered than either magic or divine.  <BR><BR>And the range slot, note yours has an acrual ranged attack.  Are you whining because we get like 60 to our mitigation from ours?  Big whoop.  If it were up to me I'd let you guys use em too, but I'd also let US use bows.  Don't start the rhetoric about our ranged attack being spells.  We have TWO, count em TWO abilities with range (less range than a long bow I might add).  One of them is a 20 second recast, the other is a 60 second recast.  Actually that's not entirely correct, we do have a ranged AE attack, and it's nice for pulling linked encounters but it's only other use is basically just as normal ae damage.  They all use considerable amounts of power.<BR><BR>I want to know why you think letting us have an item in the range slot is an uneeded change.  We already hurt for stats having to spread them out as much as we do.  The 60 mitigation we get from the idols is a drop in the bucket, we have no mitigation buffs of any kind like you guys do, and again we lack the parry buff on defense stance.  <BR><BR>I have already explained in other threads the downsides to our heals and wards, don't bother bringing that up.  <BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>wow 2 eh.. lets see we have a whole 0... it is a uneedd change cause once again they are giving out all that warriors had and nothing to us... and 100 wis is awe coonsidering it will add quite a bit of resists</P> <P>oh yeah the downside to heals... wow I mean I would rather have my nothing ability as apossed to that</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belgorim wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <DIV>- Crusaders, Mages, and Priests can now equip most symbols (censers, dolls, idols, orbs, steins, symbols, tablets, and tomes) in their ranged slot in addition to their secondary slot.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>those things are awesome... they took away our towersheilds our vanguard our def buffs our def stance.. and now the last advantage our tanged slot... and now it is the crusader advantage since those things are better then our stupid bows... this is such a slap in the face... and in turn they change our abilities.. Sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>afaik you still have towershields, vanguard and a defensive stance... and you now have a buff that increases your parry instead of defense. So you are trying to say that giving crusaders (I thought it was brawlers that where your big #1 enemy) a ranged slot somehow even more makes you suck.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>brawlers are not an enemy... live update 13 is the enemy... no we dont have towershields and vanguard of def stance.. they gave them to everyone now they gave crusaders a better ranged slot item.. I mean come on lets be fair here warriors are so low on the pole now... they have had and I am a guard everything that was their ability and advantage taking away or givin to others def stance.. +def is no good anymore.. what are u talking abotu a buff that increases my parry?? <p>Message Edited by JNewby on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 AM</span>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grantron wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <DIV>- Crusaders, Mages, and Priests can now equip most symbols (censers, dolls, idols, orbs, steins, symbols, tablets, and tomes) in their ranged slot in addition to their secondary slot.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>those things are awesome... they took away our towersheilds our vanguard our def buffs our def stance.. and now the last advantage our tanged slot... and now it is the crusader advantage since those things are better then our stupid bows... this is such a slap in the face... and in turn they change our abilities.. Sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>    It was a making in work for months and was know far and wide that someday* they would get it.  So I dont see the whine in this at all.  Yeah sure they are somewhat better the bows.  Its not going to change it from going live being cried about on guard boards dude. <P>Message Edited by Grantron on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:34 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>easy for you to say..

[blueduckie]

<DIV> <HR> brawlers are not an enemy... live update 13 is the enemy... no we dont have towershields and vanguard of def stance.. they gave them to everyone now they gave crusaders a better ranged slot item.. I mean come on lets be fair here warriors are so low on the pole now... they have had and I am a guard everything that was their ability and advantage taking away or givin to others def stance.. +def is no good anymore.. what are u talking abotu a buff that increases my parry?? <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is ridiculous hearing that + defense does nothing - Parse a mob with your defense buff on vs it off - Everytime i have done it there is considerable more dmg taken - If the mob is blue or lower it is a insane difference - If the mob is even con is a pretty large difference - If the mob is Yellow + is a mild difference - To sayi t does nothing is just uninformed and whiny. It saves alot of dmg over the course of a raid mob. Another easy way to parse it - Is test with a troubador in group and a troubador not in group - On alot of t5 mobs it is 90% misses with a troubador / guardian in MT group - It is the same thing on the 57 x4 maj dul faction raid. The defense buffs trivialize any blue or lower con mob.</DIV><p>Message Edited by blueduckie on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 PM</span>

[Greyto]

<P>I don't begrudge anything they are doing for pallies IMO they are hurting as bad as guards are.</P> <P>until SOE makes all fighter DPS as balanced as they have our tanking this game is broken.</P> <P>Taunt resist needs to be fixed, our offensive stance needs to be fixed (haste is a good idea). Tower shields should have some advantage (better blocking they are huge they should block better).</P> <P>Do this and we are fixed.</P>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<P>smite and withering soulscream for paly resists... heat seems to be far less used, ie: k'dal, darathar, sunchild (has he been killed yet???)... 2 resists > 1, with same mit boost, but parry > wis... call the stance a draw...</P> <P>give crusaders abilty to equip a bow, and guards ability to equip a symbol... there ya go plate tanks equal for that slot...</P> <P>i don't blame them for wanting the stats of a bow, its free stats for 99% of the fight,,,</P> <P>Wabit</P><hr></blockquote>

[JNewby]

<span><blockquote><hr>blueduckie wrote:<div></div> <div> <hr> brawlers are not an enemy... live update 13 is the enemy... no we dont have towershields and vanguard of def stance.. they gave them to everyone now they gave crusaders a better ranged slot item.. I mean come on lets be fair here warriors are so low on the pole now... they have had and I am a guard everything that was their ability and advantage taking away or givin to others def stance.. +def is no good anymore.. what are u talking abotu a buff that increases my parry?? <hr> </div> <div> </div> <div>Is ridiculous hearing that + defense does nothing - Parse a mob with your defense buff on vs it off - Everytime i have done it there is considerable more dmg taken - If the mob is blue or lower it is a insane difference - If the mob is even con is a pretty large difference - If the mob is Yellow + is a mild difference - To sayi t does nothing is just uninformed and whiny. It saves alot of dmg over the course of a raid mob. Another easy way to parse it - Is test with a troubador in group and a troubador not in group - On alot of t5 mobs it is 90% misses with a troubador / guardian in MT group - It is the same thing on the 57 x4 maj dul faction raid. The defense buffs trivialize any blue or lower con mob.</div><p>Message Edited by blueduckie on <span class="date_text">11-06-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:56 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>yeah 18 defense gives about 3% avoidance... and yeah taht is like nothing compared to wwhen it actaully made you tank at a hgiher level... I mean comeon we are tanks.. and giving guards a 4576 life buff and a 15 to def skilll which is about 3% avoidance as their calss defining abilities is just weak</span><div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>Thrown wpn pouches suck more then symbols and bows =p</P> <P>also remember bows have procs that niether symbols or pouches have atm.</P> <P>as for tower shield blocking shiled factor apprantely does add avoidnace. Now why does a t6 kite have the same sheild factor as a t6 tower is an entirly different question.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:13 PM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>this is funny actually.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusaders were the only tanks who could not equip something in the range slot, thereby giving every other tank free stats, except Crusaders. Unneeded? no. Imbalanced? Yes. How can it be unneeded since we are tanks as well, and have the worst stats of any tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusaders are supposed to be arcane tanks, which means were best against caster mobs. Thats why we get wisdom, thats why we get an arcane and noxious debuff. We get resistances against magic and divine damage..maybe .02 percent of mobs in this game have EVER used divine damage, and so that leaves us with magic resists. Every tank has nice resists against a particular type. We are the best tanks against caster mobs. Live with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since when are crusaders the enemy. Is it not enough you guys and bruisers are at each other, that now you need to bring Crusaders into the fray? At this moment, the Crusader is the weakest tank against a physical damage mob. The direction of tanking is that a single class is no longer the best at everything, but some classes excel in some instances, and some classes dont. Against a caster, the Guardian and Bruiser will probably not be the best choice. Not because they can't do it, but because the Crusader is the <STRONG><EM>better</EM></STRONG> choice, just like against a physical damage mob, the Guard and Bruiser is the <EM><STRONG>better</STRONG></EM> choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranged items have set stats, whereas Fabled bows have MUCH better stats...not only that, bows actually cause damage. A tier 6 legendary bow does a ton of damage, our symbols help us out in stats. Oh, and as for the mitigation thing on symbols, well, since Crusaders have the worst mitigation and avoidance of any plate tank, combined with the lowest hit points, we take more spike damage that other tanks. EVERY little bit helps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I still havent seen a guild boot out their guardians and replace them with Bruisers and Paladins. </DIV>

[Kasar]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div>And I still havent seen a guild boot out their guardians and replace them with Bruisers and Paladins. </div><hr></blockquote>They don't need to, most guilds have lost guardians due to attrition or just boredom, that's been reported pretty often. They also don't particularly complain when they quit.  Except for the few higher end raid guilds who've got the best equipped guards as MT more out of habit than anything, they aren't needed.  Other classes can do as well or better anyway.  That's the point of half of these hundreds of threads, guardians just take up a DPS space in a raid now with the lowest DPS, and they're pretty boring solo. </span><div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>That cannot be changed. Let me put it to you this. You can only have ONE MT, whether its a guard or another tank. To take your argument a step further, those tanks would still leave.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If SoE were to bow to guards and make them the superior all around tank, you would STILL just have one tank per fight, so those other guards would still leave because of boredom or attrition. The same could be applied to other tanks. People picked fighters to tank, not anything else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prior to revamp, Monks, bruisers, Palys, and Sk, and even bers were unhappy, Why? because we were tanks, but were told we weren't as good. We had all the DPS in the world and it still didnt make a difference. We chose tanks, but were passed over. Also, prior to the revamp, how many guards did a guild really need? Three, four? how many can you afford to deck out in fabled? How do you rotate them? We had the most fabled guards on the server and they were STILL unhappy. Why? because they were not raid tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is this: Just because your the UBER tank, doesnt automatically mean your going to be happy playing this game, nor does it mean you will the tank ALL the time, because there are other Guards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If guards are leaving now, its because there are too many of them for their intended job. They were over specialized in tanking. They have no other purpose. Even if you make them the best tank, they still have just one purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grp needs a tank:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guard A picked</DIV> <DIV>Guard B told slot taken. He STILL the best tank ever, but it doesnt matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guards need more diversity, not better tanking skills. Over-specialization leads to extinction if the environment changes. In EQ II, the environment has changed, and guards have to either adapt, be given more utility, or they go bye byes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Better tanking skills will not solve your problems.</DIV>

[Danter]

<P>The new DoF symbols have +mitigation and +resists so Crusaders will have an advantage over other tanks.</P> <P> </P> <P>SOE should give us the option of equipping symbols, too, because bows are pretty much useless.</P>

[Storm_Runner]

Hey...I'm a guard and I say guards are still broke and live update 16B doesn't do anything to address that.  That being said crusadors (especially Pallys) are broke too and I don't begrudge them anything they get that will help them.  It's never made sense to me that they are the only fighter that can't equip something in the ranged slot.  I've never understood why they can't use a bow.  Personally I think we should all be able to use a bow and we should all be able to equip symbols, censors, etc.  That way we would have to choose what we put in that slot.  Personally I'm not giving up my bow and I wouldn't even if I could equip symbols, etc. but having a choice might mean I could switch out items to give me a boost in stats against certain mobs.

[Gungo]

i think the only problem is symbols should of never had trauma resists on them. Spell resists is fine.

[Vulking]

<P>As a former guard, I think its fantastic SKs and Palys are getting something for this slot.  It should have happened a very long time ago.  Besides, anything that makes them better is always good.  </P> <P>And, I would not say it was an un-needed buff, they should have always been able to put something in this slot and for that matter the ammo slot too, holy water or undead blood, i don't care.  No one should have slots on their character that remain empty.  It gives the perception, real or not, that something is missing from your character.</P> <P>As far as guardians are concerned, well for those of you crazy enough to stick with yours after the 50,000 pound Nerf Bat, what can I say?  </P> <P>Is it unfair that they, (SKs and Palys) can pull with a spell and get the benefit of an item in the ranged slot? </P> <P>No, you do.</P> <p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 AM</span>

[Neimhidh]

Funny, even though they are soooo "broke"  There are still far more guardians online than monks anytime I ever look on my server..

[Vulking]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>_____________________</DIV> <DIV>Neimhidh wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny, even though they are soooo "broke"  There are still far more guardians online than monks anytime I ever look on my server.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>_____________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>Guards are broke, thats the point of the post, but insinuating  Palys and SKs don't deserve fixes is not right.  Of course there are more guards on your server, there are on every server.  They out numbered all other fighter classes something like 10 to 1.  Its just now more like 4 to 1, and a large chunk of those that left and those that remain, had fun with the class but no longer do.</FONT></DIV>

[Ironmeow]

yes bows are essential for pulling but i'd take that symbol anytime, +50 to physicaal damages heck yes, that is more essential in raids than a bow where you get hit for 3k crushing <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[OrcSlayer96]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:59 PM</span>

[Benfyn]

<DIV>Part of the issue is the difference in the stats on symbols vs those on bows. Even those out and that would go a long way to smoothing things over. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Krrrath, lvl 60 Guardian of Kithicor</DIV>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>I think the bone of contention on the symbols is not the stats but the resists and/or small mit bonus on a few of them.  Have you truely looked at the crafted cobalt/pearl/vanadium you would see that they offer Stats such as STR/AGI/WIS/INT/STA similar to bows, the only differeence is +60 to all resists.  Correct me if I am wrong but hasnt itt been said before that Crusaders were suppose to be anti caster tanks while Warriors and Brawlers were more physical damage tanks?  Seems only right that crusaders get a small bonus to help us do our roles.  After all the opposite can be said of your imbued ironwood longbow that it has too much power/health benefit to our symbol line not to mention damage capability i will trade you the +50 mit on one of the symbols for the +15 extra stats on the bow....<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kasar]

<div></div><span><blockquote>Neimhidh wrote:<div></div>Funny, even though they are soooo "broke"  There are still far more guardians online than monks anytime I ever look on my server..<hr></blockquote> Actually, I agree with the earlier posts about there being a limited use for them.  End game, a raid only really NEEDS one MT, and usually a MA but that's not necessarily a fighter class.  I don't know about the current raid composition, but before with only 24 slots, it was hard to fit all the fighter classes in (particularly plate types) that wanted to go while keeping a ridiculous number of healers while still keeping some DPS and power pushers. How would the abilities need to be changed to make it desirable to have more than 1-3 fighters in a raid?  Stackable wards?  Stun/stifles?  Larger raid forces?  Fighters take damage (hence the statement, all fighters can tank).  You generally only want one or two taking damage at a time, the rest is handled by the other classes. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Kasar on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 PM</span>

[Balmore]

Gungo wrote: " i think the only problem is symbols should of never had trauma resists on them. Spell resists is fine."Well said.They also need to be balanced against the bows.I wonder if the trauma resists were added to make up for bow and other ranged weapons shooting -- Guardians normally use those for pulling only.May be add trauma resists on bows and other ranged weapons? Just an idea. Scouts would love such change too.<div></div>

[Gungo]

i believe trauma resist was added to symbols so they would be a decent secondary item instead of shields for casters priests, but when they decided to make symbols, tomes etc a ranged item they arbitrarily gave those classes a second "shield" slot. Eithe ror fix would be remove trauma from symbols /tomes or add trauma to bows/pouches.

[Yrield]

<span><span><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:i believe trauma resist was added to symbols so they would be a decent secondary item instead of shields for casters priests, but when they decided to make symbols, tomes etc a ranged item they arbitrarily gave those classes a second "shield" slot. Eithe ror fix would be remove trauma from symbols /tomes or add trauma to bows/pouches. <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>Huh man wake up, you talk about +60 mitigation just like if crusaders could put a cobalt cuirass in their ranged slot. <blockquote> <div></div></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Gungo]

Um no i specifically said they made orbs to go into secondary slots then tagged them to go into the range slot hence giving crusaders/caster/priests a another secondary slot. All that i qouted was saying that it would be more consistent to either remove the mitigation or add mitgation to bows pouches. If you don't consider 60 extra mitigation a big deal then my suggestion should not have bothered you in the first place.

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:Um no i specifically said they made orbs to go into secondary slots then tagged them to go into the range slot hence giving crusaders/caster/priests a another secondary slot. All that i qouted was saying that it would be more consistent to either remove the mitigation or add mitgation to bows pouches. If you don't consider 60 extra mitigation a big deal then my suggestion should not have bothered you in the first place. <hr></blockquote>60 mit is no big deal, but your suggestion bother me in many ways 1. You can attack with bows/pouches, you CANT with symbols 2. Pristine fashioned pearl orb: 14wis/14int/84pwr/+60 vs all     Pristine fashioned vanadium symbol: 10sta/9wis/9int/84hp/+60 vs all     Pristine fashioned cobalt idol: 10str/9agi/9sta/84pwr/+60 vs all     Pristine imbued ironwood longbow: 14agi/14str/15sta/75hp/51pwr +Proc </span>267-496 damage, DR: 46.6     Pristine Gungoed ironwood longbow: 14agi/14str/15sta/75hp/51pwr/+60 vs magic,disease,divine,poison,cold,heat,mental,pierc ing,slashing,crushing/+Proc 267-496 damage. DR: 46.6 3. When i can trow a tome with a nice 46.6DR at 35 yards like a boomerang with a chance to proc 500 additional damage every 7sec, i would see no problem if bow or punche have any kind of resist.... not at all ! <div></div>

[Shizzirri]

A gungoed longbow made with severed gungowood right?

[Gungo]

Nice now supply the Thrown wpn equivlant and see where your whole comparison just went to poop. <P>The stats are not as high as bows there is no way to add procs to pouches and there is no resistance or mitigation on them. Fact is crusaders have higher range dps in regards to other fighters thrown wpns/ combat arts. (neither of which is significant other the pulling). So i ask again why doe sit bother you to remove the 60 mitgation if its insignificant. </P> <P>edit- btw I never said add spell resist to range items</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span>

[Belgor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Nice now supply the Thrown wpn equivlant and see where your whole comparison just went to poop. <P>The stats are not as high as bows there is no way to add procs to pouches and there is no resistance or mitigation on them. Fact is crusaders have higher range dps in regards to other fighters thrown wpns/ combat arts. (neither of which is significant other the pulling). So i ask again why doe sit bother you to remove the 60 mitgation if its insignificant.</P> <P>edit- btw I never said add spell resist to range items</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:05 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So you are saying it is a fact that Paladins spells (20 sec and 60 sec timers) do more ranged dps compared to a bow?</P> <P>I'm pretty sure paladins have the worst ranged dps in the game, bar none (as in not 100% sure, since i don't know the damage on throwing weapons :p). And they pay power for it too.</P><p>Message Edited by Belgorim on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:15 PM</span>

[Gungo]

Sorry should of been clearer pally range spells do more dps then any fighter who uses a thrown wpn range item. Yeah auto range atk using a pouch doesnt come close to a nuke then can do over 1k every 60 secs. With enuff intellignece those range spells do pretty decent dps.

[Belgor]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Sorry should of been clearer pally range spells do more dps then any fighter who uses a thrown wpn range item. Yeah auto range atk using a pouch doesnt come close to a nuke then can do over 1k every 60 secs. With enuff intellignece those range spells do pretty decent dps. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I find it hard to believe that you cannot do at least 1k damage (and probably alot more) in a 60 sec period with a throwing weapon?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats the damage and delay on the average t6 legendary throwing thing?</DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Thrown wpn pouches suck more then symbols and bows =p</P> <P>also remember bows have procs that niether symbols or pouches have atm.</P> <P>as for tower shield blocking shiled factor apprantely does add avoidnace. Now why does a t6 kite have the same sheild factor as a t6 tower is an entirly different question.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:13 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yeah it is but that is why my guard uses a t6 fabled kite shield</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>this is funny actually.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusaders were the only tanks who could not equip something in the range slot, thereby giving every other tank free stats, except Crusaders. Unneeded? no. Imbalanced? Yes. How can it be unneeded since we are tanks as well, and have the worst stats of any tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusaders are supposed to be arcane tanks, which means were best against caster mobs. Thats why we get wisdom, thats why we get an arcane and noxious debuff. We get resistances against magic and divine damage..maybe .02 percent of mobs in this game have EVER used divine damage, and so that leaves us with magic resists. Every tank has nice resists against a particular type. We are the best tanks against caster mobs. Live with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since when are crusaders the enemy. Is it not enough you guys and bruisers are at each other, that now you need to bring Crusaders into the fray? At this moment, the Crusader is the weakest tank against a physical damage mob. The direction of tanking is that a single class is no longer the best at everything, but some classes excel in some instances, and some classes dont. Against a caster, the Guardian and Bruiser will probably not be the best choice. Not because they can't do it, but because the Crusader is the <STRONG><EM>better</EM></STRONG> choice, just like against a physical damage mob, the Guard and Bruiser is the <EM><STRONG>better</STRONG></EM> choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranged items have set stats, whereas Fabled bows have MUCH better stats...not only that, bows actually cause damage. A tier 6 legendary bow does a ton of damage, our symbols help us out in stats. Oh, and as for the mitigation thing on symbols, well, since Crusaders have the worst mitigation and avoidance of any plate tank, combined with the lowest hit points, we take more spike damage that other tanks. EVERY little bit helps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I still havent seen a guild boot out their guardians and replace them with Bruisers and Paladins. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yeah cuase I am the leader of my guild... or else I would boot me.. anyhow bow dmg sux... guards get no ranged skills so the dmg arguement is weak and 2nd there are fbaled symbols as well.. and 3rd that was yet another advantage guards had now we are worse of seeing as symbols are better</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>That cannot be changed. Let me put it to you this. You can only have ONE MT, whether its a guard or another tank. To take your argument a step further, those tanks would still leave.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If SoE were to bow to guards and make them the superior all around tank, you would STILL just have one tank per fight, so those other guards would still leave because of boredom or attrition. The same could be applied to other tanks. People picked fighters to tank, not anything else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prior to revamp, Monks, bruisers, Palys, and Sk, and even bers were unhappy, Why? because we were tanks, but were told we weren't as good. We had all the DPS in the world and it still didnt make a difference. We chose tanks, but were passed over. Also, prior to the revamp, how many guards did a guild really need? Three, four? how many can you afford to deck out in fabled? How do you rotate them? We had the most fabled guards on the server and they were STILL unhappy. Why? because they were not raid tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is this: Just because your the UBER tank, doesnt automatically mean your going to be happy playing this game, nor does it mean you will the tank ALL the time, because there are other Guards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If guards are leaving now, its because there are too many of them for their intended job. They were over specialized in tanking. They have no other purpose. Even if you make them the best tank, they still have just one purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grp needs a tank:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guard A picked</DIV> <DIV>Guard B told slot taken. He STILL the best tank ever, but it doesnt matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guards need more diversity, not better tanking skills. Over-specialization leads to extinction if the environment changes. In EQ II, the environment has changed, and guards have to either adapt, be given more utility, or they go bye byes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Better tanking skills will not solve your problems.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>u took a hybrid class that could and can still heal fd evac debuff mit ward rezz... we took a straight class that coudl tank.. now we can tnak and you can tnak and we cant do anyhting else.. we want to be able to tnak again... Period... I iwll go bye bye b4 they give me anything else cause that is not what I choose when I picked my class.. I took a tank you took a tank/dps/healer/rezzer.. and yess pallies did alot more dps then guards b4 combat nerf