Test update 16b notes are out there...

[MoonglumHMV]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=85" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=85</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ShinigamiD]

<DIV>No comments yet, need to check them out, but they have the feel of being 'lets see what the absolute minimum we can do with the most words to take up space in the patch notes!'.  </DIV>

[Dedi]

- Entrench now roots all nearby enemies and debuffs their attack speed and DPS. The physical resist buff component was removed, and the recast time and duration of the ability were lowered. Wasn't Entrench our only buff (besides commanding aura) that boosted mitigation?  I think the new utility aspect of it may be useful, but was removing more of our mitigation really necessary? <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

I think we got nerfed ;/ <div></div>

[Urglu]

Absolute joke. Glad I didn't put any faith in these changes doing anything.

[TunaBoo]

Only hope wall of flesh is like 90 seconds up 30 seconds down and procs uber ac ;P  barring that big nerf/. <div></div>

[Sunrayn]

<P>umm...Thanks?</P> <P> </P> <P>No, i guess not...</P>

[suntzu1]

If it slows and lowers dps by an amount equal to say another classes haste )  like 20 percent.  would be nice.

[Raahl]

Get screenshots of what these abilities are now, so we can compare them.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dedite wrote:<BR>- Entrench now roots all nearby enemies and debuffs their attack speed and DPS. The physical resist buff component was removed, and the recast time and duration of the ability were lowered.<BR><BR>Wasn't Entrench our only buff (besides commanding aura) that boosted mitigation?  I think the new utility aspect of it may be useful, but was removing more of our mitigation really necessary?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Will the reduced attack speed and reduced DPS be as good as the old boosted mitigation?<BR>

[R]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR>Get screenshots of what these abilities are now, so we can compare them.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dedite wrote:<BR>- Entrench now roots all nearby enemies and debuffs their attack speed and DPS. The physical resist buff component was removed, and the recast time and duration of the ability were lowered.<BR><BR>Wasn't Entrench our only buff (besides commanding aura) that boosted mitigation?  I think the new utility aspect of it may be useful, but was removing more of our mitigation really necessary?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Will the reduced attack speed and reduced DPS be as good as the old boosted mitigation?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Highly doubt so..</P> <P>Hope the Wall of Flesh change makes up for the new Entrench.. But if you think about it.. We lost the avoidance from Wall of Flesh =/</P>

[TunaBoo]

Wall of flesh avoidance was like 1% raidbuffed, it did crap. So I'm fine to see it go, but very sad to lose entrench. <div></div>

[Greyto]

<DIV>did they remove the slow effect on us with wall of flesh and entrench?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they did entrench would be a huge spell. (if it works on epics)</DIV>

[Wabit]

<P><STRONG>Guardian changes:<BR></STRONG>- Guardian Sphere now has the potential to protect against all damage types. Also, the Guardian can proc a stoneskin effect to absorb up to 5 streams of damage while it is in effect.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>this doesn't sound so bad if it also has the stoneskin on myself...  other than that about useless on a raid...</FONT><BR>- Wall of Flesh now costs less power and boosts physical resistances instead of avoidance. The ability now triggers when attacks are made, and it will trigger more often.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>umm so you took the mit boost from Plant and put it here (hope its for the same or higher amout)...</FONT><BR>- Entrench now roots all nearby enemies and debuffs their attack speed and DPS. The physical resist buff component was removed, and the recast time and duration of the ability were lowered.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>umm roots all nearby enemies, big whoop, i'm rooted too...  loseing +800 mit hurts...</FONT><BR>- Sentry Watch has an improved taunt by the Guardian when defending the person that was rescued from dying.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>i've never used this skill in its current form to any use...  HtL it casts which takes me being hit to be effective</FONT><BR>- The reuse timer of Bull Rush was reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>cool, i like this change</FONT><BR>- Iron Will is now a toggled ability without an expiration timer.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>ok, so i'm loseing my last buff to build any hate, thanks...</FONT><BR>- Batter now does crushing damage.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>umm ok, not a really needed change...</FONT><BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we got nerfed...  they just swiched 2 of our skills around, gave us one upgrade (shieldbash), and 2 really nothing changes...  add this to fixing tower of stone...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but i'd like to see the stats of these changese to abilities...  if wall of might has same mit boost as porcupie great i'm happy...  but the entrench line being modified again (it was useful in both forms)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wabit</DIV>

[knightinplaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR> <P>- Iron Will is now a toggled ability without an expiration timer.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>ok, so i'm loseing my last buff to build any hate, thanks...</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Not as big a deal but running out of muscle skills to advance HOs with. I think all that's left is the short duration buffs with the longer recasts, smart one.</DIV>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> knightinplaid wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR> <P>- Iron Will is now a toggled ability without an expiration timer.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>ok, so i'm loseing my last buff to build any hate, thanks...</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Not as big a deal but running out of muscle skills to advance HOs with. I think all that's left is the short duration buffs with the longer recasts, smart one.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>sentury, assasuage, vigalnce, tower of stone, guard sphere...  not that any of them are great choices and need to be cancled before they can be cast...</P> <P>Wabit</P>

[MrMartin]

<P>What about this??</P> <P>" Shields will now correctly display their chance to block on the Persona window. The displayed value corresponds to the shield factor of the shield. NOTE: This was a display bug only. Block chances were being computed correctly in combat."<BR></P>

[Timzil]

<P>No wonder they didn't talk about what they were planning to slam us with. Our updates read like an apology to every other fighter class for ever having made a defensive tank. My bet is they want to drive us out of the game to get rid of the final reminder.</P> <P>Spudge, Once a Guardian</P>

[Mentin]

<P>One question to you people on Test: Does the changes affect the entire skill line or just the named skills? My guess is the line, but confirm please?</P> <P>I dunno why Sony so much want to give us roots. Does being rooted affect mitigation, as someone indicated earlier on this post? I guess an AE root + debuff skill could be a nice AE taunt, having no damage on it is an advantage.</P> <P> </P>

[Raahl]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><BR></P> <HR> - Wall of Flesh now costs less power and boosts physical resistances instead of avoidance. The ability now triggers when attacks are made, and it will trigger more often. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI> <DIV>Less power good</DIV></LI> <LI> <DIV>Trades Avoidance for Mitigation.   Sounds good.  But will have to see.</DIV></LI></UL> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> - Entrench now roots all nearby enemies and debuffs their attack speed and DPS. The physical resist buff component was removed, and the recast time and duration of the ability were lowered. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI> <DIV>Ok we exchange the mitigation for a debuff on enemies attack speed and DPS.  Could be good could be bad. </DIV></LI> <LI> <DIV>Recast time and duration were lowered.   Lower recast time good, Lower duration bad.</DIV></LI></UL> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> - Sentry Watch has an improved taunt by the Guardian when defending the person that was rescued from dying. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI> <DIV>Not sure on this one.  What did it do before this?</DIV></LI></UL> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> - The reuse timer of Bull Rush was reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI> <DIV>Lower recast timer is good. </DIV></LI></UL> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> - Iron Will is now a toggled ability without an expiration timer. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI> <DIV>Making this an until cancelled is good.   I haven't used buffs to keep aggro since LU 13</DIV></LI></UL> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> - Batter now does crushing damage. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI>How does this affect anything?  What was it before?  Are mobs more suseptable to crushing?</LI></UL> <P>Ok we will have to see what these do.  To me I see nothing here that will make my Guardian fun to play.  Though I could be wrong.</P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrMartin wrote:<BR> <P>What about this??</P> <P>" Shields will now correctly display their chance to block on the Persona window. The displayed value corresponds to the shield factor of the shield. NOTE: This was a display bug only. Block chances were being computed correctly in combat."<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They changed nothing, just the display of block was incorrect.  The actual numbers right in combat.

[Veshtan]

<P>Is it just me or did they find the smallest bone in the dingiest dungeon and toss it our way in hopes that it might just do the trick?  I'm not sure that's what they did, though...simply because the utter silence from all devs towards any complaints we've had speaks volumes towards how little they care about our class.  This joke of a patch simply reinforces it.  With all due respect to Raijinn...if this is what he referred to as the "top secret" stuff that was good, he needs to go find a dictionary and learn what good means.</P> <P>Some of those changes look okay, but they don't come anywhere close to fixing the imbalance that we are currently faced with.  I was really hoping they would understand our plight and try to fix what they had broken, but obviously broken as intended is exactly where they want to leave it.</P> <P>I'm thinking unless MG comes to us and posts immediately that there is a LOT more they are planning to do for the Guardian class then this mere pitance, there's going to be a lot of cancelled accounts pouring in.  It's already bad enough that he posted there would be "fixes" on 16B and then this is what we got to fix us.</P>

[Sunrayn]

<P>Pulling this off my app1 anchor.</P> <P>cast time 2.0 seconds</P> <P>recast 1min 30 secs</P> <P>duration 15 seconds</P> <P>Effect radius 5.0 meters</P> <P>Max AoE targets 8</P> <P>Roots caster</P> <P>Roots targets in area of effect</P> <P>Decrease attack speed of caster by 14.6 %</P> <P>Decrease DPS of caster by 14.6%</P> <P>Decrease attack speed of targets in Area of Effect by 12.8%</P> <P>Decreases DPS of targets in Area of Effect by 12.8%</P> <P> </P> <P>Looking for an adept1 now on the broker.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sunrayn, 46 guard, leader of The Noble Kindred--Test</P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <P>Pulling this off my app1 anchor.</P> <P>cast time 2.0 seconds</P> <P>recast 1min 30 secs</P> <P>duration 15 seconds</P> <P>Effect radius 5.0 meters</P> <P>Max AoE targets 8</P> <P>Roots caster</P> <P>Roots targets in area of effect</P> <P>Decrease attack speed of caster by 14.6 %</P> <P>Decrease DPS of caster by 14.6%</P> <P>Decrease attack speed of targets in Area of Effect by 12.8%</P> <P>Decreases DPS of targets in Area of Effect by 12.8%</P> <P> </P> <P>Looking for an adept1 now on the broker.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sunrayn, 46 guard, leader of The Noble Kindred--Test</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks Sunrayan.   Keep em coming.

[germanicus2112]

<DIV>Based on the app1 listed stats I think this will be a significant upgrade in a raiding context. I would like to see how the adept3 version scales.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the context of raiding, Wall of Might was useless, raid buffed I was hitting the defense cap (as it contributes to avoidance) without casting wall of might, so this change is a welcome one. The key will be how much physical mit it buffs, as losing 840 (adept3 plant) in a pinch hurts. A positive aspect is Wall of Might has a much lower recast timer than Plant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could someone post Wall of Might updated stats, as well as guardian sphere?</DIV>

[Sunrayn]

Sorry guys, adepts are scarce as hen's teeth on test and my alchie is only 30  =) <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wall of Brawn app1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>power 28</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast time 1 sec</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>recast 1 min</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>duration 30 secs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Slows caster by 38%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>decrease attack speed of caster by 14.1%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Increase Mit vs all physical damage by 361</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>25% chance to root target for 10 secs on a successful melee attack</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*edit* need coffee, leaving out stuff </DIV><p>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:19 AM</span>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> Sorry guys, adepts are scarce as hen's teeth on test and my alchie is only 30  =) <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wall of Brawn app1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>power 28</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast time 1 sec</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>recast 1 min</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>duration 30 secs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Slows caster by 38%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>decrease attack speed of caster by 14.1%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Increase Mit vs all physical damage by 361</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>25% chance to root target for 10 secs on a successful melee attack</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*edit* need coffee, leaving out stuff </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <SPAN class=date_text>11-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:19 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If its a one minute recast we can rotate our 30 second buffs for mitigation, which I don't get one has a real stiff penalty the other doesn't, I'm wondering how or if the anchor line actually generates hate with the area slow its generating now

[germanicus2112]

<DIV>If wall of brawn at app 1 provides that much mit for 30 seconds out of every minute, this is a HUGE upgrade for guardians. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 60:</DIV> <DIV>do the math, we lost plant adept 3 of 840 mit which we only were able to use for 30 seconds out of ever 3 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now we will get (this is a guestimate based off past scaleing values of app1 - adept3 of a conservative 1.45x multiplier) :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wall of brawn</DIV> <DIV>361 x1.45 at adept3 = 523 mit bonus for 90 seconds out of 180 as opposed to 840 for 30 seconds out of every 180 seconds. Also bear in mind that Wall of Might is our final version of this, so the mitigation bonus will be higher, probably close to 580 or so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Combine this with new Plant, if these numbers hold up, amounts to a very significant boost for Guards. </DIV>

[Veshtan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <DIV>If wall of brawn at app 1 provides that much mit for 30 seconds out of every minute, this is a HUGE upgrade for guardians. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 60:</DIV> <DIV>do the math, we lost plant adept 3 of 840 mit which we only were able to use for 30 seconds out of ever 3 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now we will get (this is a guestimate based off past scaleing values of app1 - adept3 of a conservative 1.45x multiplier) :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wall of brawn</DIV> <DIV>361 x1.45 at adept3 = 523 mit bonus for 90 seconds out of 180 as opposed to 840 for 30 seconds out of every 180 seconds. Also bear in mind that Wall of Might is our final version of this, so the mitigation bonus will be higher, probably close to 580 or so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Combine this with new Plant, if these numbers hold up, amounts to a very significant boost for Guards. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Good point, the only problem is you're going to have brawlers coming over here now, pointing this out...saying we can tank better than anyone else again now and crying for a nerf.</DIV> <DIV>I'd have really liked to see de-buffs added to several of our attack arts to help us with our solo-ability, but they seem to want to keep us gimped in that department.  It would also have been nice to see them alter our group buffs so that they provide a little more use to the group, instead of buffing up things that the group will never have need of if we're doing our job right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, they might not be done with the changes...but something tells me this is all we're going to get for a while, because the way they were talking, we needed no changes anyway, and i think what they did change shows this attitude hasn't changed a bit.</DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<P>Oh btw, one other thing I am checking today is to see if the dps decrease from Anchor stacks with the dps decrease with our Cleave line.</P> <P>Off to Everfrost and /log on</P>

[DmZB]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian changes:</DIV> <DIV>- Iron Will is now a toggled ability without an expiration timer.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>I used this quite often to advance arm HO.  While i like the fact that we get continuous benefit from the spell, i don't like losing "another' arm ability.   I think this leaves us with 1 short duration/long recast ability to complete HO's with arm.</P><p>Message Edited by DmZBaT on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 AM</span>

[Mig]

I'd rather have a slow than temporary mitigation any day. As long as the slow is any good this will be a welcome change. If it works on epics, it will be really nice.

[Erronn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <DIV>If wall of brawn at app 1 provides that much mit for 30 seconds out of every minute, this is a HUGE upgrade for guardians. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The 'wall of' line 60 second recast timer actually starts when the spell is cancelled or expires...so can provide the buff for 30 seconds out of every 90 seconds. The level 27 "wall of flesh" at App3 boosts mitigation by 270. Should have some screenies to post soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Errokk</DIV> <DIV>30 Guardian - Test Server</DIV>

[craized warrior]

no change to how taunts work?, all i see are a bunch of buffs being swapped round...

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>well sux to loose the mitigation but at least we can root the mobs, thats IF the spell isnt resists 80% of the time and if the root isnt like 1 seconds</DIV>

[Erronn]

<P><IMG src="http://www.mfia-eng.com/images/bull_rush_ad1.jpg"><IMG src="http://www.mfia-eng.com/images/iron_will_ap1.jpg"><IMG src="http://www.mfia-eng.com/images/wall_of_flesh_ap3.jpg"></P> <P> </P> <P>Errokk</P> <P>30 Guardian - Test Server</P>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <DIV>Good point, the only problem is you're going to have brawlers coming over here now, pointing this out...saying we can tank better than anyone else again now and crying for a nerf.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>actually no i think its a good change, I always preferred short duration buffs over straight up increases. To me it brings a bit mor eskill and timing involvement. I also would liek to see more debuffs added to gaurd attacks. Its a good start, but i don't think this is all the tweaks guards will expect. the good news is this is at least saying they are looking at the gaurds skills. </DIV> <DIV>I liek the stone skin proc on sphere although i do wish the stone skin proc would work solo as well.</DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 AM</span>

[Danter]

<P>Wall of Flesh is going to be better than Anchor was because it looks like it's the same mitigation Anchor used to give with a shorter recast time (1 min) instead of 3 minutes.</P> <P>The root effect on Wall of Flesh is worthless and the only reason I can see it even being there is adding like an extra 20 hate to the mob if it does proc.</P> <P>Guardian's Sphere in my opinion is still worthless as a MT because of the short duration and the rarity of losing aggro in the first place against normal xp mobs.  It looks like it might be pretty useful as the offtank though because of the stoneskin ward.</P> <P>No change to Sentry, so we still have a line that's completely worthless.</P> <P>It'll be interesting to see how good the new Anchor is and if it affects Epics.</P> <P> </P>

[Aar]

The root effects on Anchor/wall of flesh are going to be good for saving the life of stupid casters... They stack well with maddening defense too...if you can keep the mob in range. Mob chases caster, you use entrench.  mob is rooted, you are only thing in range.  Its going to beat on you, generating more agro.    Pretty sure the root/slow affect will be a decent amount of hate too. Plus, assuming wall of flesh isn't resisted, and the root doesn't break easily with damage, you can get a pretty good amount of agro lock if the mob is rooted in front of you for 30+ seconds. You could likely use shield stuns on either side of this to extend it a bit more too. <div></div>

[Wasuna]

<P>I just see a bunch of buff flip flopping around. Maybe it will help. What does a 15 second root of up to 8 mobs do for us? Any monster that you actually have to worry about killing a caster in 15s with a healer on duty is not one your going to kill in 15s. So when the 15s is over it will then go over and kill the caster then.</P> <P>What happened to DPS? That change to Guardian Sphere seems like an old EQ1 rune spell proc. So, when somebody else gets hit we have a chance of procing a rune spell that helps us not die. Also, now that Guardian sphere has a chance to absorb all types of damage, what do we do when a trapped chest is opened? Die like a good Guardian for those unber no stat boots that sell for less than our repair costs?</P> <P>The entire concept of the protection line is broken.</P> <P>Our DPS is not equal to almost anoy other fighter class.</P> <DIV>Our tanking ability is equal to or less than all other fighters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This crap didn't help us from what I can see. I'll have to wait and see what this all really does for Guardians but I can tell you right now that if this is crap like I think it is I will not back down and just accept this.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Wasuna on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:59 AM</span>

[Tro]

<DIV>Quick question... I recently upgraded Anchor to Adept III.. When LU 16 goes live, will the new Anchor still be Adept III for me?</DIV>

[Kriddle Kraddle]

<DIV><EM>Quick question... I recently upgraded Anchor to Adept III.. When LU 16 goes live, will the new Anchor still be Adept III for me?</EM></DIV> <P>Yes this should not change.</P>

[Tro]

ok thank you !! Would suck if it reverted back to App I,,

[Aandien]

<P>Our effects that root cast pin, not root.  The difference is, pin lasts the full duration regardless of incoming damage to that mob.</P> <P>Thus, if you pin the mob and have inflaming defense (or its derivatives) up, it will be hitting you instead of going after whomever is top on the aggro list.  If its hitting you, its generating hate towards you for the entire duration its pinned.  This is good.</P> <P>Guardian Sphere -- very useful if your not the MT.  Extremely good reason for putting an offtank as a guardian in the MT group for a raid -- as generally the first few seconds of a fight are the critical moments.  You will now be able to keep the MT alive (which could be another guardian, or a different tank) while debuffs get placed.</P>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AncientElster wrote:<BR> <P>Our effects that root cast pin, not root.  The difference is, pin lasts the full duration regardless of incoming damage to that mob.</P> <P>Thus, if you pin the mob and have inflaming defense (or its derivatives) up, it will be hitting you instead of going after whomever is top on the aggro list.  If its hitting you, its generating hate towards you for the entire duration its pinned.  This is good.</P> <P>Guardian Sphere -- very useful if your not the MT.  Extremely good reason for putting an offtank as a guardian in the MT group for a raid -- as generally the first few seconds of a fight are the critical moments.  You will now be able to keep the MT alive (which could be another guardian, or a different tank) while debuffs get placed.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>When a mob is rooted it attacks the closest person to them. The 5m radius can eaisly make adds or mob group members attack somebody else which how funky positioning is inthis game. This change has some good and some bad. It's not better, just different.</P> <P>Guardian Sphere - There is a chance of a proc to save yourself taking the damage. This still means that the ability now isn't a 100% death sentence. It's a 50% death sentence, or 70% death sentence, depending on what quality your ability is I suspect. Is this better? Yes. Is it good? /shrug, I still don't like getting killed needlessly. Also, this ability now has a change to transfer the damage for all attacks and all damage I believe. Can you name a raid monster that doesn;t have an aoe attack? This is still a suscide ability.<BR></P>

[TunaBoo]

Depends on final wall of flesh numbers, but this is a marginal improvement at best, and we have to sit there and spam a stupid buff during the raid.  Not enough yet, we still suck. Oh and we need to be able to use symbols in the new slots, or crusaders just got +100 perma mitiagtion over us with crafted pearl symbols. <div></div>

[Dedi]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>AncientElster wrote:<div></div> <p>Our effects that root cast pin, not root.  The difference is, pin lasts the full duration regardless of incoming damage to that mob.</p> <p>Thus, if you pin the mob and have inflaming defense (or its derivatives) up, it will be hitting you instead of going after whomever is top on the aggro list.  If its hitting you, its generating hate towards you for the entire duration its pinned.  This is good.</p> <p>Guardian Sphere -- very useful if your not the MT.  Extremely good reason for putting an offtank as a guardian in the MT group for a raid -- as generally the first few seconds of a fight are the critical moments.  You will now be able to keep the MT alive (which could be another guardian, or a different tank) while debuffs get placed.</p><hr></blockquote>Thanks for the info on Pin! </span>I don't know if I agree that Guardian sphere is useful in a raid MT group.  I hope youre right, but unless the stoneskin portion of it is really good, its very likely we will die shortly after using it, especially if it now absorbs AE damage the group receives.  (Not confirmed, just speculation based on the update notes)  If this is the case though, the MT of the group will lose all guardian buffs when we drop. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Dedite on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:57 PM</span>

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>i can imagine it now, 3 guardians chaining guardian sphere each dying 1 by 1</DIV>

[DaxxDea]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <DIV>If wall of brawn at app 1 provides that much mit for 30 seconds out of every minute, this is a HUGE upgrade for guardians. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 60:</DIV> <DIV>do the math, we lost plant adept 3 of 840 mit which we only were able to use for 30 seconds out of ever 3 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now we will get (this is a guestimate based off past scaleing values of app1 - adept3 of a conservative 1.45x multiplier) :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wall of brawn</DIV> <DIV>361 x1.45 at adept3 = 523 mit bonus for 90 seconds out of 180 as opposed to 840 for 30 seconds out of every 180 seconds. Also bear in mind that Wall of Might is our final version of this, so the mitigation bonus will be higher, probably close to 580 or so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Combine this with new Plant, if these numbers hold up, amounts to a very significant boost for Guards. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>don't forget plant and wall of might recast timers don't start till spell fades. So 1min recast on wall with 30sec duration is actually 30sec buff every 90secs. Plant was 30sec buff every 3.5mins<BR>

[Benfyn]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Gonna borrow your post here Raahl to add in my own comments. Hope you don't mind.</FONT> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><BR></P> <HR> - Wall of Flesh now costs less power and boosts physical resistances instead of avoidance. The ability now triggers when attacks are made, and it will trigger more often. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI> <DIV>Less power good</DIV></LI> <LI> <DIV>Trades Avoidance for Mitigation.   Sounds good.  But will have to see.</DIV></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Agreed. Need to see this in action before I can comment on that but i'm always happy to see that mitigation number going up regardless of the reduction to avoidance. Me likey miti.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> - Entrench now roots all nearby enemies and debuffs their attack speed and DPS. The physical resist buff component was removed, and the recast time and duration of the ability were lowered. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI> <DIV>Ok we exchange the mitigation for a debuff on enemies attack speed and DPS.  Could be good could be bad. </DIV></LI> <LI> <DIV>Recast time and duration were lowered.   Lower recast time good, Lower duration bad.</DIV></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Lower duration is just bad. Losing mitigation is just bad (me no likey). The only positive i see here (besides the recast being lowered) is that the debuff might also generate some hate. Just read that this is an area of effect too as oppose to us needing to be hit to generate the debuff. That's actually pretty nice. Still, need to see it in action.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> - Sentry Watch has an improved taunt by the Guardian when defending the person that was rescued from dying. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI> <DIV>Not sure on this one.  What did it do before this?</DIV></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>This has never really worked well for me. Had a lot of potential too. It is suppose to intercept attacks 100% of the time with 88% (don't have it in front of me but I believe that is correct figure) of the damage coming to the guardian and 1% going to the target. It is also suppose to proc a taunt on each successful interception AND heal the target for 7% of their total health. Yeah, looks uber don't it. First time I used it i saw the graphic for a group buff trigger on everyone in the group and i thought this was going to be the <STRONG>defining CA for our class</STRONG>. Then nothing happened. Not a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] (hi Raijinn) thing. No intercept, no heal, no taunt, no nothing. I try it occasionally but basically I've never seen it work as intended. Unless of course it's suppose to not work at all in which case it is both working as intended AND <STRONG>the defining CA for our class in its current state</STRONG>.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> - The reuse timer of Bull Rush was reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI> <DIV>Lower recast timer is good. </DIV></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yup. This one is nice. Simple, clear and effective. Need more updates like this.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> - Iron Will is now a toggled ability without an expiration timer. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI> <DIV>Making this an until cancelled is good.   I haven't used buffs to keep aggro since LU 13</DIV></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>This one is a draw. I do use it sometimes to complete HOs (since i got steely conviction it's the quickest way to complete one without the draw back of being a lower level CA) but i'll live.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> - Batter now does crushing damage. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI>How does this affect anything?  What was it before?  Are mobs more suseptable to crushing?</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>This one is just bizarre to me. It's a change for changes sake. Boo! Hisss! Don't get me started on Tower of Stone either. </FONT></P> <P>Ok we will have to see what these do.  To me I see nothing here that will make my Guardian fun to play.  Though I could be wrong.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>All in all, it's nothing dramatic and will need to be field tested to really comment. I am excited that we got some attention and some changes BUT it does seem that SOE is only making a token effort here. Again, if Sentry Watch is working now and the changes to our buffs are truly upgrades then we got off lucky. I am anxious to see these in action and even more anxious to come here to post my opinion after using them. :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Krrrath, lvl 60 Guardian of Kithicor (sure i'll duel you but no using spells, heals, pets or avoidance buffs).</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Benfynyn on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 AM</span>

[Ladicav]

<DIV>I agree with the token effort opinion. None of the Guardian major concerns were really addressed. It seems to be mainly fringe updates.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line, I doubt this will make Guardians stop getting sick of playing a Guardian and opting to change class or even quit. And really there isn't anything there that would get a new player excited about even starting a Guardian. So I expect there will continue to be a slow decline in interest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE have a long way to go yet I'm afraid.</DIV>

[craized warrior]

yup, soe still need to do a lot of work before well be happy i reckon.

[Greyto]

<P>OK I am going to consolidate my post with this one as Raahl suggested:</P> <P></P> <HR> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Guardian changes:<BR></STRONG>- Guardian Sphere now has the potential to protect against all damage types. Also, the Guardian can proc a stoneskin effect to absorb up to 5 streams of damage while it is in effect.<BR>- Wall of Flesh now costs less power and boosts physical resistances instead of avoidance. The ability now triggers when attacks are made, and it will trigger more often.<BR>- Entrench now roots all nearby enemies and debuffs their attack speed and DPS. The physical resist buff component was removed, and the recast time and duration of the ability were lowered.<BR>- Sentry Watch has an improved taunt by the Guardian when defending the person that was rescued from dying.<BR>- The reuse timer of Bull Rush was reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds.<BR>- Iron Will is now a toggled ability without an expiration timer.<BR>- Batter now does crushing damage.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Guardian changes:<BR></STRONG>- Guardian Sphere now has the potential to protect against all damage types. Also, the Guardian can proc a stoneskin effect to absorb up to 5 streams of damage while it is in effect.</DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></P>Guardian 50 Guardian Sphere Allows the guardian to protect the entire group, sometimes absorbing all the damage a group member would otherwise take <P><FONT color=#33cc00>was always supposed to take "All the damage" the stone skin proc is a nice addition I guess.</FONT></P> <DIV><BR>- Wall of Flesh now costs less power and boosts physical resistances instead of avoidance. The ability now triggers when attacks are made, and it will trigger more often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian 27 Wall of Flesh Increases the defense of the guardian in exchange for decreased movement and attack speeds. Also grants a chance to root opponents that attack the guardian in melee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>Was never meant to increase avoidance, works as intended.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>- Entrench now roots all nearby enemies and debuffs their attack speed and DPS. The physical resist buff component was removed, and the recast time and duration of the ability were lowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian 32 Entrench Roots the guardian in place. This effect increases trauma mitigation and decreases the guardian's attack rate and melee attack damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>Took away the mitigation but slowed the mob, gave us root, might be useful but  not much as it slows us more then it slows the mob. so reduces argo on MD and any agro we might gain from DPS.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>- Sentry Watch has an improved taunt by the Guardian when defending the person that was rescued from dying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian 55 Sentry Watch Allows the guardian to intervene and take the damage that would have otherwise killed an ally in the group for a short duration. This also increases the enemy's hate towards the guardian when this effect triggers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>agro any way I can get it I guess.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>- The reuse timer of Bull Rush was reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000><FONT color=#33cc00>Speaks for itself.</FONT> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>- Iron Will is now a toggled ability without an expiration timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>/shrug</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>- Batter now does crushing damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian 31 Batter A melee attack that deals crushing damage and drains some of the target's power on a successful hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>Now works as intended.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>SO when the dust settles we are no further along then before.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Taunts getting resisted still a problem, minor utility changes but nothing that makes ya go "OK that will work".</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>DPS still well below other fighters (except paladins).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>All and all nothing to write home about (or post for the guardians by any CRR or game dev. ahead of time).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Someone posted that they feel as if SOE would like to just move the guardians out of the game all together. It would be pretty hard for me put up much of a counter point to that argument atm.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>SO is this it?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Guardians are what guardians are going to be in this game?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Joel? anyone? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV>