Any Guards losing aggro to Monks?

[The Mo]

Before the combat revamp I had a 35 Pally.  Re-rolled because I hated being a "support tank" and wanted to be the best tank in the game.  Right now I have a 35 Guardian.  I'm trying to be the "uber tank."  Full Feysteel Vanguard, all adept 3 or higher taunts, etc. etc.. everything is great.  I have grouped with a level 42 Ranger at level 33 and did not lose aggro once.  So far I haven't found a Wizard I can't handle.  But for the only 3 times I have grouped with with a Brawler they have made me look like a flat out noob.  First time it was a Monk 2 levels lower then me.. second a Monk one level lower.. today a Bruiser 3 levels higher than me.  Each time these guys were literally stripping my aggro like I couldn't find the freaking taunt button.  Each time I asked them not to taunt, and for the 3rd time in a row now I have heard they didn't have their taunt buttons on the screen.  It is getting me a little irritated that they are making me look so bad and I was wondering if anyone has the same problem or any suggestions for me.  35 levels into the Guardian and I think people overrate these things a little much. P.S.-  My DPS is better than a Pally's and I think everyone information about classes are more hearsay than fact. <div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>The Moor wrote:Before the combat revamp I had a 35 Pally.  Re-rolled because I hated being a "support tank" and wanted to be the best tank in the game.  Right now I have a 35 Guardian.  I'm trying to be the "uber tank."  Full Feysteel Vanguard, all adept 3 or higher taunts, etc. etc.. everything is great.  I have grouped with a level 42 Ranger at level 33 and did not lose aggro once.  So far I haven't found a Wizard I can't handle.  But for the only 3 times I have grouped with with a Brawler they have made me look like a flat out noob.  First time it was a Monk 2 levels lower then me.. second a Monk one level lower.. today a Bruiser 3 levels higher than me.  Each time these guys were literally stripping my aggro like I couldn't find the freaking taunt button.  Each time I asked them not to taunt, and for the 3rd time in a row now I have heard they didn't have their taunt buttons on the screen.  It is getting me a little irritated that they are making me look so bad and I was wondering if anyone has the same problem or any suggestions for me.  35 levels into the Guardian and I think people overrate these things a little much. P.S.-  My DPS is better than a Pally's and I think everyone information about classes are more hearsay than fact. <div></div><hr></blockquote>tell them to turn off their taunt stance.  monks is dragon stance (and its derivatives)  it gives them a proc to add hate each time they hit.. If they refuse, boot em from the group, if they are not MT they dont need to be adding hate... </span><div></div>

[The Mo]

I just wrote that down.  I will make sure to ask next time.  I wouldn't mind having a proc that increases my hate every hit. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Troupez]

I kept losing aggro to a monk that was equal lvl to me in SS the other day. His dmg was insane and ripped the aggro right out from under my Adept III and Master II taunts.

[Nemi]

<FONT color=#ffff00>Yep, sounds like he is using Dragon Stance. Bottom line if he is not tank he shouldn't be pulling aggro, so tell him to stop or boot him. Then again, if he is higher level than you, you should probably let him tank.</FONT>

[Troupez]

Thx Nemi....good advice

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>The Moor wrote:I just wrote that down.  I will make sure to ask next time.  I wouldn't mind having a proc that increases my hate every hit. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote> It is the equivilant of HTL, only brawlers aren't rooted for that..   Monks get a mitigation buff that roots them though, so if they want to do the best tanking with least damage they get rooted too.  (dunno what bruisers get for mit). </span><div></div>

[Raahl]

<P>You Ranger friend wasn't trying hard enough if he couldn't peel off aggro.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   </P> <P>Comparing a Paladin's and Guardians DPS you'll find it is roughly the same.   A friend and I did a little test.   The paladin might have had an slight edge on single target DPS, and the Guardian might have had a slight edge on Group DPS.  Both were similarly equipped and at level 44.</P>

[RafaelSmith]

I dont group with monks...in fact I dont group with any other fighters...save another Guardian that is good friend of mine. Ive actually asked myself why that is...its interesting because prior to LU13 I was ALOT more apt to group up with other fighters, experiment with odd group combinations, etc. I think mostly its because the revamp forced alot of us into more traditional one dimensional roles and aggro bouncing around from fighter to fighter surely equals dead group with the new system.  Part of it is selfishness on my part...since i realize now that outside of being MT I am utterly useless ide just assume guarantee I am the MT.  My friends realize all this as well and they never suggest us grabbing another fighter when we want to fill a spot. Its sad because it takes away yet another social aspect from what is suppose to be a MMO. Hard to imagine this was the intent of all these changes,nerfs, etc. <div></div>

[MyTFlyGuy]

<span><blockquote><hr>RafaelSmith wrote:I dont group with monks...in fact I dont group with any other fighters...save another Guardian that is good friend of mine. Ive actually asked myself why that is...its interesting because prior to LU13 I was ALOT more apt to group up with other fighters, experiment with odd group combinations, etc. I think mostly its because the revamp forced alot of us into more traditional one dimensional roles and aggro bouncing around from fighter to fighter surely equals dead group with the new system.  Part of it is selfishness on my part...since i realize now that outside of being MT I am utterly useless ide just assume guarantee I am the MT.  My friends realize all this as well and they never suggest us grabbing another fighter when we want to fill a spot. Its sad because it takes away yet another social aspect from what is suppose to be a MMO. Hard to imagine this was the intent of all these changes,nerfs, etc. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Same here. I can't stand being a support Tank ..... I completely rerolled fomr a level 28 Swashy to a Guard just 18 levels before Revamp ... Now I can't stand to be in a second group. With no DPS I feel usesless as second tank. Even if I Try to unnload as much DPS as I can I burn up my power bar so fast I'm the guy the group waits on instead of the mage or healer for power regen.  The guardians really only success in this game has ever been at MT. Sure others cna MT now , We just cna't do [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] else. It was THE only thing we ever excelled at. </span><div></div>

[Shizzirri]

The biggest problem classes for me as far as aggro are berserkers and Warlocks (on large group mobs), swashbucklers pull aggro from me more than monks, they're not a problem

[tsaav]

raahl, i think you got that backwards. I'm 2 levels below a pally that i group with all the time. We do 100-150 dps in a full group (i love getting my str bufffed, heh) on single targets. When multiple targets show up pallys really shine, the other night he hit 550 before we had to evac <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> A few of their ancient spells give REALLY good AEs. <div></div>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tsaavik wrote:<BR>raahl, i think you got that backwards.<BR><BR>I'm 2 levels below a pally that i group with all the time. We do 100-150 dps in a full group (i love getting my str bufffed, heh) on single targets. When multiple targets show up pallys really shine, the other night he hit 550 before we had to evac <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> A few of their ancient spells give REALLY good AEs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yea I think you are right I got to thinking about it.  hehe.

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Shizzirri wrote:The biggest problem classes for me as far as aggro are berserkers and Warlocks (on large group mobs), swashbucklers pull aggro from me more than monks, they're not a problem <div></div><hr></blockquote> Yeah swashies are a whole 'nother ball of wax.. I have, um, issues on my 48 swash with agro.. though I am getting better with the higher level de-hate stuff..  I can now pull something and de-agro it and hand it off to the pally I group with while he is AFK and let him afk tank that way while I do some backstabs..   takes the right combo of anti-hate to do it though.. but with a hate procing stance on swash, and 95% of our stuff having debuffs, we walk a very fine line...   cant wait to try it out with a guardian in group and see if the HTL setup and more taunts makes it easier to do more dps..</span><div></div>

[Belgor]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tsaavik wrote:<BR>raahl, i think you got that backwards.<BR><BR>I'm 2 levels below a pally that i group with all the time. We do 100-150 dps in a full group (i love getting my str bufffed, heh) on single targets. When multiple targets show up pallys really shine, the other night he hit 550 before we had to evac <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> A few of their ancient spells give REALLY good AEs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That would be one (as in 1) of their ancients. And its on a 5minute timer :p</DIV>

[Uumuuanu]

<P>Its not just to monks, with my new troubador I was not only pulling aggro off a 39 guardian (I was 35 at the time) in RV, but I was taking as well or better then he was.  It was also nearly impossible to give aggro back to him, even using my hate reducing abilities.  The days of the guardian tank appear to be over.</P> <P>/Troubador</P> <P>Buahaha,  glad my guardian is locked away in the deepest recesses of some tradeskill zone.   /whip /whip Fast I need more money to buy new toys.</P> <P>/guardian /cry  </P> <P>~thinks,  someday I will be great again, maybe~  /hammer hammer hammer "Yessir,  making your new armor now sir"</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Raahl]

<DIV>With my Ranger I did notice that it was easier to pull aggro from a Berserker than a Monk.</DIV>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The Moor wrote:<BR>I just wrote that down.  I will make sure to ask next time.  I wouldn't mind having a proc that increases my hate every hit. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>At 52 you will get a combat art called Unforgiving Strike that I believe increases hate each time you connect with the enemy.</P> <P> </P>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Uumuuanu wrote:<BR> <P>Its not just to monks, with my new troubador I was not only pulling aggro off a 39 guardian (I was 35 at the time) in RV, but I was taking as well or better then he was.  It was also nearly impossible to give aggro back to him, even using my hate reducing abilities.  The days of the guardian tank appear to be over.</P> <P>/Troubador</P> <P>Buahaha,  glad my guardian is locked away in the deepest recesses of some tradeskill zone.   /whip /whip Fast I need more money to buy new toys.</P> <P>/guardian /cry  </P> <P>~thinks,  someday I will be great again, maybe~  /hammer hammer hammer "Yessir,  making your new armor now sir"</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Keep in mind any class can probably pull aggro from you not because your taunts are weak but it could be a total idiot behind that character who buttonsmashes, uses the wrong skills at the wrong time, and don't even get me started on some of the horror stories a resisted taunt can cause on inc</DIV>

[Hend]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The Moor wrote:<BR>I just wrote that down.  I will make sure to ask next time.  I wouldn't mind having a proc that increases my hate every hit. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>At 52 you will get a combat art called Unforgiving Strike that I believe increases hate each time you connect with the enemy.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>For 13 seconds, yes, and with 3 min timer, IIRC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vork</DIV>

[RafaelSmith]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> The Moor wrote:I just wrote that down.  I will make sure to ask next time.  I wouldn't mind having a proc that increases my hate every hit. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>At 52 you will get a combat art called Unforgiving Strike that I believe increases hate each time you connect with the enemy.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Hmm i think your refering to Reinforcment and it only lasts for 13sec and has a rather long reuse timer.  Its nice but its hardly anything more than a potential AE version of mini Rescue.  Its effect can be resisted like any other taunt.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by RafaelSmith on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:04 AM</span>

[tsaav]

<div></div>At 52 you will get a combat art called Unforgiving Strike that I believe increases hate each time you connect with the enemy. yeah, your thinking of the ancient spell reinforcment. Unforgiving strike is a single target 1 hit DD melee+taunt. <div></div><p>Message Edited by tsaavik on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 PM</span>

[The Mo]

I don't know who you were playing with but that would be unheard of for me.  I have got a Pally to the same level as my Guard and I think the Guard has a significant advantage in tanking ability.  I made the Guard after the revamp and so far I have been very satisfied with his DPS, was hitting 80-100 last night, and they aggroing has been much easier to control, other than when with a Brawler.  I think your Guard was a noob. <div></div>

[The Mo]

<div></div>That post above was to this:<p>Its not just to monks, with my new troubador I was not only pulling aggro off a 39 guardian (I was 35 at the time) in RV, but I was taking as well or better then he was.  It was also nearly impossible to give aggro back to him, even using my hate reducing abilities.  The days of the guardian tank appear to be over.</p><p>/Troubador</p><p>Buahaha,  glad my guardian is locked away in the deepest recesses of some tradeskill zone.   /whip /whip Fast I need more money to buy new toys.</p><p>/guardian /cry </p><p>~thinks,  someday I will be great again, maybe~  /hammer hammer hammer "Yessir,  making your new armor now sir"</p><div><hr><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=208371203" target="_blank">Apoq- Guardian</a> - Crushbone~~ Retired due to Nerfs!!~If tanks were meant to wear Pajamas, the M1A1 would be make of silk and dance around the battle field singing Hari Christna songs~</div><div></div>

[MrDiz]

Oh god yeah. A 56 guardian cant even hope to out taunt a 51 bruiser or even a 50 monk. Taunting flat out i can keep aggro for about 5 seconds before they take it. And I dont ever get it back. Brawlers are the kings of aggro.

[The Mo]

Ok.. grouped with a Bruiser my level 37 with equal equipment (everything rare.)  What I noticed.. his mitigation was not as good as mine.. 1400ish to 1800ish.. but his avoidence.. WOW.  69% to 40%  As far as the aggro buff theory.  With it off I could tank fine.  With it on I will struggle.  If I kept HO'ing I did fine.  Maybe lost is 25% of the time, and most were near the end of the fight.  DPS was about the same actually.  We were each on average about 60-100 DPS.  Some rounds he would go higher some I would.  We kept switching as MT.  What I saw was that we each could tank exceptionally well as far as aggro goes.  He let more people die than me because of adds, but I was impressed.  Afterward we dueled.  First with defence stance.. I won.. then with offence stance.. he won (my first defeat by someone my level BTW.)  Conclusion..  Bruisers and Guards are VERY balanced.  I do not think the Guard prevailed at all against the Bruiser.. but I don't think the Bruiser did either.  It was very even.  People are saying Guards got worst.. I think they tank just fine.  If a Bruiser is as good as a Guard, so be it.  Their DPS was nothing to get excited about so it's not like they have some huge advantage.  I actually enjoyed not being the MT for 2 hours out of the night.  And honestly.. both our power pools suck so altering one tank after another kept the exp going very consistently throughout the night.  This whole "Great Tank" idea might be dead, but for anyone to say the Guard is useless, or can't hold aggro, or is not fun to play, in my opinion is just finding another thing to complain about.  Classes are more equal, but if you choose a Guardian to be a tank, then you will be able to be a good tank. <div></div>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>The Moor wrote:Ok.. grouped with a Bruiser my level 37 with equal equipment (everything rare.)  What I noticed.. his mitigation was not as good as mine.. 1400ish to 1800ish.. but his avoidence.. WOW.  69% to 40%  As far as the aggro buff theory.  With it off I could tank fine.  With it on I will struggle.  If I kept HO'ing I did fine.  Maybe lost is 25% of the time, and most were near the end of the fight.  DPS was about the same actually.  We were each on average about 60-100 DPS.  Some rounds he would go higher some I would.  We kept switching as MT.  What I saw was that we each could tank exceptionally well as far as aggro goes.  He let more people die than me because of adds, but I was impressed.  Afterward we dueled.  First with defence stance.. I won.. then with offence stance.. he won (my first defeat by someone my level BTW.)  Conclusion..  Bruisers and Guards are VERY balanced.  I do not think the Guard prevailed at all against the Bruiser.. but I don't think the Bruiser did either.  It was very even.  People are saying Guards got worst.. I think they tank just fine.  If a Bruiser is as good as a Guard, so be it.  Their DPS was nothing to get excited about so it's not like they have some huge advantage.  I actually enjoyed not being the MT for 2 hours out of the night.  And honestly.. both our power pools suck so altering one tank after another kept the exp going very consistently throughout the night.  This whole "Great Tank" idea might be dead, but for anyone to say the Guard is useless, or can't hold aggro, or is not fun to play, in my opinion is just finding another thing to complain about.  Classes are more equal, but if you choose a Guardian to be a tank, then you will be able to be a good tank. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Youre level 37? What level did you get to preDoF? Im not wanting to belittle youre opinion but the difference between the fighter classes (like all classes) get more pronounced the further you get from class level. maybe you can hold aggro with a monk/bruiser in your group of equal level but post 50 its a whole different story. We did Hook and Crook last night to ding the guild, and a bruiser 5 levels lower than me kept pulling aggro on the target. I would keep the group of mobs on me, but the one we targetted would rapidly switch to him. This was not a big deal as they were green to him so I could heal him without targetting him. But he was 5 levels lower than my guardian and he got aggro with ease.Guardians are most certainly not the kings of aggro <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[The Mo]

I got to level 35 with my Paladin.  I was having the same problem with Brawler until I learned their stances.  If you group with those guys again, have the Brawler undo his hate stance.  Every hit he connects increases hate.  Have him undo it and see how it works.  But you are right, I have not expierience level 50 yet.  What I looked up today kind of changed my opinion though.  The Bruisers get cool moves.  They can heal every 5 mins, invis, all their rares are hella cheap, and they tank as good as me.  I am starting to understand why everyone is getting annoyed.  The fighters can now tank as good as Guards, but they get to keep all their cool spells while the Guards get nothing of cool value.  But.. with that said I think people still value Guardians.  For the last probably 2 weeks or so I am averaging 2-3 group invites a night.  Half of the time it is people I do not know.  I am not LFG, most of the time I am in a group, and I have to turn them down.  But usually I can't be on for longer than 20 mins w/o an invite. Anywho.. I think a Monk Tailor would rock.  You could make practically all your equipment. Cerpin 37 Guardian - Oasis <div></div>