Forum Post Count

[Wasuna]

<DIV>I see that the Guardian forum has now significantly passed all other fighter forums in total posts by a significant amount. Maybe this is a significant enough statistic for SOE to notice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Balance the fighter classes so they are all equal. I can't see this being a significant problem as this was the entire point of the combat change and you all have spent months on it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm wondering if sending daily PM's from us all to developers and moderators would atleast encourge them to reply to us in some meaningful way. I for one and getting tired of the silence.</DIV>

[Raahl]

<DIV>Yea the monks noticed this a month or so back.  LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some of the posts in there were pretty funny.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really don't think that post count will make any difference to Sony.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jay]

<P>Post count itself won't, but vocal consistent and productive opinion can. </P> <P>Frankly, it seems like too many people around here get too hung up on things that are completely irrelevent to the situation that the guardian class faces: the game pre-LU13, EQ1, Gaige, Vanguard, DDO, and their own incredulity to name a few. </P> <P>If the majority stay focused on isolating the problems with the class and the aspects of it that are no longer fun, it will increase the chance that the issues will be addressed sooner. Unfortunately, it seems that many people just prefer to wallow in their misery, which only makes their own situation worse - it doesn't improve the guardians' situation at all. But I can definitely understand the frustration of playing a class that faces significant problems, and you have my sympathy for that. </P> <P>I'm still hoping that you guys get your problems addressed, but I group with a guardian almost every day and we have a great time, so IMO it's possible to continue enjoying the game despite the issues with the class.</P>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>Post count itself won't, but vocal consistent and productive opinion can.</P> <P>Frankly, it seems like too many people around here get too hung up on things that are completely irrelevent to the situation that the guardian class faces: the game pre-LU13, EQ1, Gaige, Vanguard, DDO, and their own incredulity to name a few.</P> <P>If the majority stay focused on isolating the problems with the class and the aspects of it that are no longer fun, it will increase the chance that the issues will be addressed sooner. Unfortunately, it seems that many people just prefer to wallow in their misery, which only makes their own situation worse - it doesn't improve the guardians' situation at all. But I can definitely understand the frustration of playing a class that faces significant problems, and you have my sympathy for that.</P> <P>I'm still hoping that you guys get your problems addressed, but I group with a guardian almost every day and we have a great time, so IMO it's possible to continue enjoying the game despite the issues with the class.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're assuming though, that SOE actually cares whether the message is negative or positive. </P> <P>Mahatma Ghandi is a bit of a hero of mine.  It's the philosophy of passive resistance to achieve an end.  I think that SOE only cares about $$, and the only way that this horrible archtype system will get fixed is if the financial factors aren't in their favour.  Then and only then will you see changes to any class.  So by not playing you are forcing them to fix this stuff that's broken.  Of course, many people will deny that the server populations have been affected negatively, but denial is not just a river in Egypt.</P> <P>Additionally, I think it's important to question a large corporation and their motivation to do certain things.  Especially when it affects you on a personal level.  SOE wants you, as a subscriber, to just shut your mouth because people upset is bad for the game as a whole.  They tell you to "post constructively" not because they really want to hear what you have to say, but because it's a PR thing.  If you are looking for games to buy, are you going to buy a game where hundreds of people are upset and complaining?  I wouldn't. </P> <P>Anyway, this post constructively thing is a load of junk.  They didn't listen to the hundreds of posts in DOF beta about how things would be messed up if the LU went through, and they certainly aren't listening now.  I think the ball is in SOE's court to bridge the chasm between a massive amount of angry players, and themselves.</P>

[Jay]

<DIV>"Post constructively" doesn't mean "ignore your problems" or "be a fanboy." It means be vocal, intelligent, calm, and reasonable in bringing awareness to the situation. Don't pretend the problems don't exist - quite the opposite, illuminate them as best you can, frequently. Flaming SOE, each other, and other classes while simultaneously pining for the good ol' days and/or threatening to leave to pursue another game just doesn't do anyone any good, IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't want to play a guard anymore, roll a new toon. If you don't want to play EQ2 anymore, stop threatening to cancel and just leave and actually go have fun (you remember fun, right?) somewhere else. I'm sorry if this sounds callous, b/c I DO sympathize and I WANT guardians' issues to be resolved. Vent the frustration if you must, then move toward doing something that's useful to yourself or to your class. Incessant wallowing only poisons your own well.  </DIV>

[Pry]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>"Post constructively" doesn't mean "ignore your problems" or "be a fanboy." It means be vocal, intelligent, calm, and reasonable in bringing awareness to the situation. Don't pretend the problems don't exist - quite the opposite, illuminate them as best you can, frequently. Flaming SOE, each other, and other classes while simultaneously pining for the good ol' days and/or threatening to leave to pursue another game just doesn't do anyone any good, IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't want to play a guard anymore, roll a new toon. If you don't want to play EQ2 anymore, stop threatening to cancel and just leave and actually go have fun (you remember fun, right?) somewhere else. I'm sorry if this sounds callous, b/c I DO sympathize and I WANT guardians' issues to be resolved. Vent the frustration if you must, then move toward doing something that's useful to yourself or to your class. Incessant wallowing only poisons your own well.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree to some extent with what you are saying.  Not to turn this into a huge philosophical discussion, but...</P> <P>I can't think of one situation that better parallels this one than the Classic Coke vs. New Coke battle  (Ok, I am aging myself a bit).  Anyway, in 1985 when Coca-Cola decided that they wanted to fend off a fast rising Pepsi by changing the flavour of their soft-drink by making it more like Pepsi.  They determined this after conducting 200,000 taste tests with consumers who said they liked the taste of New Coke better than Classic Coke.</P> <P>What they didn't rely on was the bond that consumers had with Classic Coke.  Protesters carried signs in Atlanta that said "We want the real thing" and "Our children will never know refreshment".  Complaint calls to Coca-Cola went from 400 a day to over 1,500.   People were calling this move by Coke the "<STRONG>marketing blunder of the century</STRONG>" and calling then CEO Roberto Goizueta the "<STRONG>dumbest executive in American business history</STRONG>"</P> <P>Some people liked the new-coke.  But they couldn't sell it as a Coke replacement so later that year they changed it back and sold new-coke on another marketing stream to hip teenagers using the slogan "Ride the Wave".  And marketed Classic Coke to be just as what it was before.</P> <P>The lesson is that you cannot sell a product, instill product loyalty in consumers, and then change it to suit a purpose (no matter what that purpose is).  It's taught from day one in MBA school, using Coke as a primary example, and I am quite surprised that anyone at SOE with some business sense didn't say "You know, we don't want a repeat of Coke here". </P> <P>Basically, this is what they did, and just like in 1985 people are going to protest it.  If Coke didn't return to it's roots in 1985, Pepsi would be the #1 soft drink seller in the world right now.  There's all kinds of parallel lessons to learn from that debauchle. </P> <P>I think protesting something is a good thing.  It means that you don't have to get run-over by a corporation based on the whims of ill informed executives who don't understand the consequences of what they did.    You can call it incessant wallowing if you will, but I think there isn't enough of it quite honestly.</P>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Prynn wrote: <P>I think protesting something is a good thing.  It means that you don't have to get run-over by a corporation based on the whims of ill informed executives who don't understand the consequences of what they did.    You can call it incessant wallowing if you will, but I think there isn't enough of it quite honestly.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm not sure what it is that I'm saying that leads you to think I'm requesting that unsatisfied guardians just shut up and take it, but... I'm not saying that. Trust me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that you should protest if you're unhappy. I agree with resisting a change that you don't feel is right. I agree that Gandhi was cool and that new Coke sucked. It's the <STRONG>nature and method </STRONG>of some of the protesting that I find counterproductive in this instance. I'll spare you the examples, but I just don't see how EQ1 or Gaige or Vanguard are at all relevant to the guardian class situation. "Incessant wallowing" is my phrase for whining or hair-tearing that serves no purpose other than to affirm the whiner. But it's only natural - misery loves company, after all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And FWIW, I do agree that Sony is dropping the ball here; they have a nasty PR issue on their hands and despite Raijinn's efforts, they aren't doing much to deal with it. They've told us they're working on guardians and assassins, but both communities feel completely neglected right now. Some SOE red-names could be doing a lot more to reassure those groups of players, and it might help stem the tide of angst.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it's not clear: I do agree that guardians have problems that need to be addressed. I do agree that players should protest and agitate for change. I do agree that SOE is not doing enough to communicate with their customers about these issues. I do agree that changing the fundamentals of a class's role a year after release is bound to generate some backlash. I do not agree that any and all complaining is a good thing. Like I said, vent your frustration, get it out of the way, then move forward. If you can't play your guardian b/c it just doesn't appeal to you anymore, roll and alt or take a break from the game. Just my .02, having played a broken class for many months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, and I'm glad I haven't (yet) gotten flamed simply b/c I have the gall to post on this board when my main is a ranger and not a guardian. I'm probably not making myself any new friends with these kind of posts, but it's only my opinion. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:14 PM</span>

[Pry]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Prynn wrote: <P>I think protesting something is a good thing.  It means that you don't have to get run-over by a corporation based on the whims of ill informed executives who don't understand the consequences of what they did.    You can call it incessant wallowing if you will, but I think there isn't enough of it quite honestly.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm not sure what it is that I'm saying that leads you to think I'm requesting that unsatisfied guardians just shut up and take it, but... I'm not saying that. Trust me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that you should protest if you're unhappy. I agree with resisting a change that you don't feel is right. I agree that Gandhi was cool and that new Coke sucked. It's the <STRONG>nature and method </STRONG>of some of the protesting that I find counterproductive in this instance. I'll spare you the examples, but I just don't see how EQ1 or Gaige or Vanguard are at all relevant to the guardian class situation. "Incessant wallowing" is my phrase for whining or hair-tearing that serves no purpose other than to affirm the whiner. But it's only natural - misery loves company, after all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And FWIW, I do agree that Sony is dropping the ball here; they have a nasty PR issue on their hands and despite Raijinn's efforts, they aren't doing much to deal with it. They've told us they're working on guardians and assassins, but both communities feel completely neglected right now. Some SOE red-names could be doing a lot more to reassure those groups of players, and it might help stem the tide of angst.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it's not clear: I do agree that guardians have problems that need to be addressed. I do agree that players should protest and agitate for change. I do agree that SOE is not doing enough to communicate with their customers about these issues. I do agree that changing the fundamentals of a class's role a year after release is bound to generate some backlash. I do not agree that any and all complaining is a good thing. Like I said, vent your frustration, get it out of the way, then move forward. If you can't play your guardian b/c it just doesn't appeal to you anymore, roll and alt or take a break from the game. Just my .02, having played a broken class for many months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, and I'm glad I haven't (yet) gotten flamed simply b/c I have the gall to post on this board when my main is a ranger and not a guardian. I'm probably not making myself any new friends with these kind of posts, but it's only my opinion. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Jay42 on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:14 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Naw, I am glad that people come on and have these types of constructive discussions!  I think that two people can disagree about something and flesh it out, it helps to get them on the same page.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as what you wrote above, I couldn't agree more!  It is as if I had written it myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  I chose to take a break from the game.  My WoW Paladin is up to level 33 now and soon approaching the point of no return.  That is the point when the WoW expansion comes out; by then my Paladin will be 50 and it will no longer be worth it for me to return to EQ2, at which point if it's not fixed I will completely cancel my account (because I won't need it).  That's my timeline anyway.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Prynn on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:24 AM</span>

[Wasuna]

<P>The purpose of this post was to use anything I could find to add as much pressure to SOE on this issue as possible. Ofcourse the pressure we generate is somehing along the line of a penny sitting on top of an elephants back but we do what we can.</P> <P>Peaceful resistance. Getting offensive will just get your threads locked and deleted.</P> <P>Agian, I wonder what would happen if all the Moderators started getting PM's from all the Guardians on the forum everyday asking politely what was going on? I'm sure that is something I can't ask for as that would be breaking some rule or somesuch but it's nice to think about.</P> <P>Lack of communication is unacceptable.</P>