Sick of it!!!

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> SeattleSeven wrote: <P>Very constructive post.  This will surely improve already strained relations between the classes.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yeah, because exagerrating by saying you have NO dps and NO utility is going to help.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greytoon wrote:<BR> <P>Did you even play EQ1?<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nope.</P> <P>EQ2 for me is EQ2.  It doesn't have to live up to any reputations, expections or preconceptions of any other games.  It is what it is.</P> <P>Now, I'm glad you had all those feelings and associations with EQ1 and are currently looking for a game that will capture them again.  I doubt that it will happen, but I wish you luck.</P> <P>WoW has done one thing, it proves the landscape of MMO gamers is changing.  Casual friendly if not outright casual is where its at.  I mean THIS game has constant rants and flames for catering to the hardcore and the raiders.  This game is far from hardcore imho.</P> <P>The point is casual is where the money is.  Vanguard is a <EM>very</EM> hardcore game.  It is built, catered, marketed and aimed at a very precise and small percentage of the MMO market.</P> <P>That said I think the main thing about EQ1 was that it was a lot of people's firsts.  Genereally speaking you can't recapture those moments.  Even if you come close they won't eclipse the "first".</P> <P>I think Vanguard will be what it is, a hardcore MMO that plays like EQ1 with better graphics, aimed at a very distinct portion of the playerbase.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>10-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:53 PM</span>

[Ichabo]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:No DPS?  So when you attack a mob you do 0 damage, right?  I see. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Oh come on Gaige, stop beeing a such a troll. You know exactly what I mean with no DPS. We lack DPS and utility in comparisoon with the other 5 fighter classes and it is not compensated with our tanking abilities.</span><div></div>

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greytoon wrote:<BR> <P>Did you even play EQ1?<BR></P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nope.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Too bad then ya might have had a chance to know what you were talking about.</P> <P> </P> <P>Night Gaige the Monk forums are <<<<<<<< that way. I think some of the people over there still value your opinion.</P> <P>For me you are just another troll in a long line of them.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Greytoon wrote: <P>Too bad then ya might have had a chance to know what you were talking about.</P> <P>Night Gaige the Monk forums are <<<<<<<< that way. I think some of the people over there still value your opinion.</P> <P>For me you are just another troll in a long line of them.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I need to play EQ1 to know what I'm talking about considering EQ2?  Funny.</P> <P>I know where the monk forums are, I post there daily.</P> <P>Opinions are opinions, everyone has one.</P> <P>I'm not a troll sir, I'm a half-elf.  I love you too.<BR></P>

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I need to play EQ1 to know what I'm talking about considering EQ2?  Funny.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well to be blunt YES.. if you read my post about the two different swords that were our guilds first you would have never made this statement'</P> <P>"That said I think the main thing about EQ1 was that it was a lot of people's firsts.  Genereally speaking you can't recapture those moments.  Even if you come close they won't eclipse the "first"."</P> <P>See you would have known the number of years between those two events. Both were warrior swords but years apart from each other. Yet the feeling of pride I had for my guild for their accomplishment was the same.</P> <P>I know you're confused I said first and you said first but I said you're wrong so let me paraphrase.</P> <P>Two swords same game years apart same feeling.. Get it?</P> <P>No you don't you never played EQ1.<BR></P>

[Rattiki]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greytoon wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AwesomeSauce wrote:<BR> <P>I wasn't planning on leaving EQII until recently. I've waited for the devs to fix my class long enough.<FONT color=#ffff00> At least Sigil has an incredible reputation with its employees and promises that class roles will never change.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><STRONG>L O L</STRONG></P> <P>Yeah, I'm positive that will happen.  Besides, what roles have changed in this game?  None.  You are still tanks just like any fighter.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Gaige I understand you feel you have a lot invested here, even a loyalty. But this game has become nothing more then cookie cuter characters with all the flavor of dirt.</P> <P>Sorry, I do not know how close someone has to be to a situation before they can see the obvious. In your case it must be pretty darn close.</P> <P>Did you even play EQ1? Did you ever spend MONTHS raiding and raiding for that one drop that just made your whole [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] week? </P> <P>When getting that last piece of elemental armor was not just a moment for you but every member of your guild was congratulating you because they knew what it meant to you, and when they got theirs how you felt for them.</P> <P>You ever see a member of your guild get his Epic? I mean I can remember when my first guild member got his epic sword. I died at least 10 time in PoAir to that huge bird (Spiroc or what ever it was called it has been a lot of years). I [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near cried. Point is there is nothing in this game that brings me any of that joy. </P> <P>LOL watching a dozen "Boots of the Warlord" drop before we got our first guild "Blade of War" Man I am talking about waking the neighbors the first time Rallos Zek went down. </P> <P>Give me one example of any of that in this game. Anything....</P> <DIV>LOL I am now in full T6 legendary gear just like every other level 50+ I see running around. Yeah those were memorable moments. hack hack hack....woot look what I got.../gu grats Grey. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry man, You don't think that a lot people who want to play a game like EQ1 USED to be are hanging around waiting for Vanguard?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then you my friend don't need to play a fantasy game... You're living one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Great post.  It summed up a lot of what I feel is missing in EQ2.  There is nothing in the game that I feel remotely excited by which is a major contrast to those many major moments of EQ1 history.</P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greytoon wrote:<BR> <P>Even if you come close they won't eclipse the "first".</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I meant MMO in general.  No other game will capture those moments like your first, because you'll always be comparing it to the first game that caught your attention.  Nevermind, I suppose the concept is too hard for you to understand.<BR></P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>wow..really...Im glad this guy doesnt troll the Paly forums. Hes pretty much out of control really. I mean, the only reason he posts is to cause even more flaming and trolling. Its like he enjoys sticking a pencil in Guardians eyes.</P> <P>I'm kinda surprised the mods havent done anything about him yet. There was a paly once who posted something on the Monk forums (maybe bruisers?) and he got shut down pretty fast for starting trouble, but day after day this Gaige guy comes and does the same thing. </P> <P>I've never seen someone try to get a job at a company soooooo bad. Jeez..he's definitely no Moorgard. At least Moor sounds intelligent when he posts.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:51 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>I'm kinda surprised the mods havent done anything about him yet. There was a paly once who posted something on the Monk forums (maybe bruisers?) and he got shut down pretty fast for starting trouble, but day after day this Gaige guy comes and does the same thing.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't post to start trouble and I follow the forum rules.  So obviously that paly you refer to and I do not do the same thing.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>I've never seen someone try to get a job at a company soooooo bad. Jeez..he's definitely no Moorgard. At least Moor sounds intelligent when he posts. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have a job.  I like it.  Easy hours, good money and I'm my own boss for the most part.  As for not being Moorgard... of course not.  I'm way better looking. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:53 AM</span>

[Buggrit]

your thread has been hijacked <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>I mean how! who hijacked this thread! I bet that guy Gaige hijacked it. Hes just trying to get his post count up, I tell you.</P> <P>Have patience Guards. You guys were the super tanks for 10 months..its been less than 2 months since revamp. Give it time. You're not completely broke. Our guild MT is still a dirty, dirty rat. I  think our guild monk tanked terrotarantula, though, but not sure..wasnt there. But thats the beauty of this new system. Now if we could only find a mob thats perfect for palys..yes! BROOG for teh win! :smileywink:</P> <P>Your mitigation is not broken. All plate tanks have similar problems.</P> <P>Your aggro is not broken.</P> <P>Your hit points are not broken.</P> <P>Your DPS is not broken. (same as palys)</P> <P>I dont see guilds booting their tanks for bruisers or monks.</P> <P>You guys think you have it bad?</P> <P>Palys have the worst mitigation, avoidance, hit points, stats (other than wisdom) than any tank. We have no ranged item, we have nukes that have extremely long recast timers. You can out do our ranged DPS with a bow. You think our wards and heals are uber? </P> <P>Heh, they can and are interrupted all the time. A buffed guard is superior to a paly against almost raid every mob, except for <U><STRONG>maybe</STRONG></U> a caster mob. Does your utility need improvement? perhaps it does...but think about it, really.</P> <P>You guys always talk about how you guys should be the best tanks..guess what? you STILL ARE the preferred tank. If you guys picked a Guardian to be the "best" tank, then why are you going to quit, if you still are the "best" tank?</P> <P>I can see an argument about DPS or utility..but tanking? Lets clarify it.</P> <P>Are you people asking for a boost in tanking or utility? You cannot have both..and since you are already a better tank...well...</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<P>Prior to LU#13:  I was planning on checking out DDO, but expected to stay in EQ2 because I was having fun and had a great guild.</P> <P>Post LU#13:   I'm planning on checking out DDO, but now it can possibly replace EQ2.  Really depends on what DDO is like.  </P> <P> </P>

[LadyDor]

<DIV>Ummm.."our" mitigation IS broken, it just happens to be broken for ALL mit tanks....</DIV> <DIV>As far as my DPS being on par with a Pally...well, last I checked since a Pally can heal and I can't that means they live a bit longer in a fight, which in turn means they can dish out more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying " you can heal and I can't...that's not fair." I chose Guardian knowing I wouldn't be able to heal myself.</DIV> <DIV>I AM saying that I chose Guardian knowing I'd have DPS in the basement in EXCHANGE for the "ability" to stand there and take the beating while others killed the thing(s) beating on me.....SOE took a good chunk of that away from me with LU13.</DIV> <DIV>They said there would be fundamental or "core" things that would be inherent for each Class AND Subclass and then swooped in and took some of what was supposedly just that for Guardian away....thereby making my class the "Unsung Hero" that was NOT what I chose to play after BETAing one and playing one since day 1 of the game going live. I personally never experienced the "God-mode" and am glad I didn't, however I do feel there should be a bit more "meat" to Guardian than there is since LU13. I have Alts I play...and I still play my Guard from time to time. It just isn't as "defined" or as fun as it was prior to LU13 and all I am asking for is for them to give me something to do besides "buff my group and Power drain healers in my group" all while staying pretty dang stunned or loosing agro because my Taunts are resisted more often than not (I couldn't agrovate a hill of ants with the tip of my sword as the game stands :smileysurprised: )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I maintain I DO NOT want other Fighters Nerfed...I just want Guardian "fixed" so it isn't so "bleh"......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also agree that it is kinda silly that Pally and SK folks can't use a Bow....and can't help but wonder what the reasoning is for that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pry]

I was extremely surprised that the Shadowknight didn't get a skeleton pet.  And I also agree that it's silly that Pallys and SK's can't use a bow.  Really silly. 

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div> <p>Your mitigation is not broken. All plate tanks have similar problems. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><b>umm if all plate tanks have problems then yeah mitigation is broken.  Mitigation isnt as "safe/reliable" as SOE claims it is.  I still die due to streaks as much as anyone else.  </b></font> </p> <p>Your aggro is not broken. </p> <p><b><font color="#ffff00">On this I agree...Havent had much aggro problems since LU13.</font></b> </p> <p>Your hit points are not broken. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><b>They are lower than they should be given the nature of our low avoidance and rather low mitigation...HP is all we have to deal with streaking MOB dmg spikes.</b></font> </p> <p>Your DPS is not broken. (same as palys) </p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><b>Our DPS is broken if you accept SOE's and Gaiges opinion that fighters are now balanced.  Equal tanking sure..equal DPS no.  So we are not equal nor balanced.</b></font> </p> <p>I dont see guilds booting their tanks for bruisers or monks. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><b>They are probably waiting for their various players that rerolled Brawlers to level up.</b></font> </p> <p>You guys think you have it bad? </p><font color="#ffff00"><b>Do we have it bad?  If by bad you mean that we are not able to perform our role as tank..then NO...But if by bad you mean we are overall underpowered compared to some of the other fighters..then YES.  In a group situation Guardian is by far the worse choice...That in terms of balance is no different than prior to LU13 where Guardian was by far the best choice.</b></font> <div></div><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">10-31-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:12 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>I mean how! who hijacked this thread! I bet that guy Gaige hijacked it. Hes just trying to get his post count up, I tell you.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Says the poster whose first post in this thread was an offtopic flame against me and the second was a post complaining about Paly's lack of a range item.  That is some delicious irony, its also hypocritical but not as tasty.<BR>

[Vulking]

<P>darn double posting :smileymad:</P> <P>sorry</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:11 PM</span>

[Vulking]

<P>One thing that I don't get.  Everyone seems to complain about the lack of uniqueness, how everyone is the same, etc.....  This goes to Guards as well.  I'm quite frustrated not specifically at SoE, but at the player base.  All the constant whining and crying about how you lack this or that class gets it why can't I?</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#6666ff>Things should have been left alone:</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Palys and SKs should NEVER have had their Horses nerfed, if anything the speed it gave them it should have been increased as the character advanced in levels (with a maximum speed just under that of a charger at level 50).</P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>   why: they do not get a ranged weapon. <EM>(and enough from the SKs and Palys on this, you have nukes and other abilites that offset this, not completely but enough that we shouldn't have to hear about it every day).</EM>  <STRONG>It is also more accurate to believe that KNIGHTS have horses.</STRONG> <EM>(Also enough with the notion that this is and was just a fluff spell.  Why a fluff spell, thats BS, if you wanted one you could have rolled one. Simply, it is a perk to the class and does not preclude other classes from getting perks.)</EM></FONT></P> <P>Palys should have been restricted to lances(spears) and swords.</P> <P>   <FONT color=#66cc00>why: its more historically accurate with the image of a shiny knight. </FONT></P> <P>SKs should have been restricted to lances(spears) and axes.</P> <P>   <FONT color=#66cc00>why: its more historically accurate with the notion of a dark fighter using a weapon that is much more brutal than a sword.</FONT></P> <P>Shields, Kite,Tower, Buckler should have remained with the block numbers they originally had as well as restricting them to certain classes.</P> <P>   <FONT color=#66cc00>why: Please if this needs to be explained one more time im going to scream, lol.  (ok, its more plausable to believe that a big honkin shield will block more damage,  you want to add specials to the smaller shields, say a big wisdom component to bucklers, go ahead.&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT></P> <P>Monks and Bruisers should have kept the original avoidance numbers they had many many months ago.</P> <P>   <FONT color=#66cc00>why: because thats what they are good at, well at least bruisers, (the notion of a monk, <EM>who historically is a religious figure,</EM> fighting is bizzarre.)  Well i suppose if we are going to have fighter monks then why not dump them in a group whos roll involves dodging the enemy and taking quick jabs at them.</FONT></P> <P>Monks and Bruisers should continue to have or get, safefall, FD, sneak, and a few other specials in this realm.</P> <P>   <FONT color=#66cc00>why: because it is in character with a roll that relies on avoidance (ie this includes the notion of them being sneaky bastaards)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6666ff><STRONG>I reflect on all this because it is these differences and others that helped create your class in the first place.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>The changes all started, when <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>YOU</FONT></STRONG> the whiny players asked to have something your class was not created to have, because another class did.  Had you sucked it up and rolled the class you were envious of, there would have been no problems. </P> <P>At every turn we have asked for things to be nerfed or made so we are the equal of everyone else, then we scream "why am I the same as everyone else?"</P> <P>SoE pandering to our whining, nerfed those classes we had issues with till we all ended up the same.  My complaint with them was that instead of nerfing they should have left nerfed classes alone and gave more to those that were lacking.  The idea being, adding to the game is always a win, subtracting rarely is.</P> <P>Whats my point?  If you wanted a fighter that was best at standing there and taking a beating it was a guardian/ sometimes zerker.  It was how it was, it should not have changed, but it did.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Should we all suck it up and just move on?  Dunno.</FONT></P> <P></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Hammarus on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:41 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>I mean how! who hijacked this thread! I bet that guy Gaige hijacked it. Hes just trying to get his post count up, I tell you.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Says the poster whose first post in this thread was an offtopic flame against me and the second was a post complaining about Paly's lack of a range item.  That is some delicious irony, its also hypocritical but not as tasty.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If it weren't for gaige you'd all die of boredom I know I would...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So when they nerf bruisers is the original poster going to reroll whatever fighter class the majority of the EQ2 crowd deems the most powerful?</DIV>

[Veshtan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR>your thread has been hijacked <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yep...Gaige is good at that.  Not that he's foul mouthed or truly does anything wrong....he's just really good at saying just the right thing to irritate the hell out of certain Guardians who post here.   One would think he likes it.... No...couldn't be...nevermind :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>(BTW, sometimes Gaige makes me grit my teeth too, but he IS right, he does stick to the forum rules, for the most part)</P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>sigh..when are you guys going to realize that Paladins wards and healers = normal guard tanking.</P> <P>We have lower mitigation, avoidance, and hit points that you guys. My heals allow me to tank comparatively as well as a guard. They dont give me some sort of advantage, since I take more damage than a guard. Palys have close to 8% less avoidance than a guard..and about 200 less mitigation, since you guys have mitigation buffs we lack. </P> <P>You want to talk about spike damage? We take alot more of it than you do...not only that, but we get interrupted all the time when we spam heals and wards. </P> <P>Like I said..do you guys need utility? probably.</P> <P>Are you guys the worst tanks? give me a break. Crusaders right now have the crappy end of the stick when it comes to tanking, compared to other tanks.</P> <DIV>Palys healing and warding = Guardian normal tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You should really read the thread that one fo your own guards posted when he parsed Paladins taking over 20% more damage than a same lvl Guard.</DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 PM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT AND PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinnstein's Monster on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinnstein's Monster on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 PM</span>

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P> <P>Message Edited by Raijinnstein's Monster on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I like sunny days <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Raijinn]

<P><SPAN style="COLOR: #33cc99">Greytoon</SPAN>,</P> <P>Thank you, please keep personal flames and the like to a minimum. I appreciate it.</P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>I mean how! who hijacked this thread! I bet that guy Gaige hijacked it. Hes just trying to get his post count up, I tell you.</P> <P>Have patience Guards. You guys were the super tanks for 10 months..its been less than 2 months since revamp. Give it time. You're not completely broke. Our guild MT is still a dirty, dirty rat. I  think our guild monk tanked terrotarantula, though, but not sure..wasnt there. But thats the beauty of this new system. Now if we could only find a mob thats perfect for palys..yes! BROOG for teh win! :smileywink:</P> <P>Your mitigation is not broken. All plate tanks have similar problems.</P> <P>Your aggro is not broken.</P> <P>Your hit points are not broken.</P> <P>Your DPS is not broken. (same as palys)</P> <P>I dont see guilds booting their tanks for bruisers or monks.</P> <P>You guys think you have it bad?</P> <P>Palys have the worst mitigation, avoidance, hit points, stats (other than wisdom) than any tank. We have no ranged item, we have nukes that have extremely long recast timers. You can out do our ranged DPS with a bow. You think our wards and heals are uber? </P> <P>Heh, they can and are interrupted all the time. A buffed guard is superior to a paly against almost raid every mob, except for <U><STRONG>maybe</STRONG></U> a caster mob. Does your utility need improvement? perhaps it does...but think about it, really.</P> <P>You guys always talk about how you guys should be the best tanks..guess what? you STILL ARE the preferred tank. If you guys picked a Guardian to be the "best" tank, then why are you going to quit, if you still are the "best" tank?</P> <P>I can see an argument about DPS or utility..but tanking? Lets clarify it.</P> <P>Are you people asking for a boost in tanking or utility? You cannot have both..and since you are already a better tank...well...</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:12 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yeah we are same as every other tank cept brawlers and we cant heal we cant drain life ward fd or dps... yeah nothing to comlain about</P> <P> </P> <P>oh yeah hp is broken.. its alot less then it was</P> <P>mit is broken.. we used to havea  def stance which made us good tanks... now everyone has it</P> <P>we have nothing that makes us different or gives any kind of edge</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS, PLAY NICE**</FONT></P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Raijinnstein's Monster on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 AM</span>

[landru]

Just another example of hijacked thread.  *shakes head* You'd think that with all the time that has passed since LU13 they they would eventually move on, and find other places to sow their own form of "doom saying".  I enjoy this game, I'm trying to enjoy my guardian.  I still play him daily, but the OP is right, they don't hold the same enjoyment as they once did.  This debate about other games is also one of sear pointlessness.  Other games come, people move on, then new ones come after that, people move on.  That's the nature of this industry.  I don't believe that EQ2 is going to see the "Exodus" that some say is coming.  (Yes, I'm agreeing with Gaige even though he hijacked this thead)  I do believe that their subscription numbers are going to take a tumble though.  They are going to need to pull out a lot of stops to keep that from happening, but I don't think that they are willing to commit to that.  EverQuest 2 is going to continue moving along, mostly off of the success wave that EQ1 had.  The honeymoon with this game is over for some and now they are looking for a new one.  There has been some drastic changes late in the game that has left a sour taste in people mouths that are going to bite SOE in the hind parts, but not as badly as a few are predicting. Vanguard, D&D and whatever else is coming down the pipe will continue to eat from all the other games that are current when changes happen that the players don't like.  That again is the nature of the beast.  People have left this game to go play WoW, then some came back.  Heck, I left EQ1 and AO to come here and brought most of my friends with me.  EQ2 is a good game overall, deserves some credit for that.  Yes, guardians are not in the best of shape.  Yes, we have people (see: gaige) that are taking some twisted form of enjoyment in this crusade that they are on to "re-educate through hijack".  There has been some feedback from the SOE Dev and CS staff, but it has been very lite and subtle and easy to miss. All in all I have faith that things will stablize, but I find myself coming less and less to the forums to see if there are response.  Especially the guardian forums.  Most of what I see are hijacked threads by people that "can post whatever and where ever they want" but never to stop and think about if they really SHOULD and non-contructive posts that end up getting moderated.  ~ Gladius ~ Guardian ~ Divine Aura (http://www.divaura.com) ~ Nejena Server <div></div>

[goawaynow]

<P></P><FONT size=2></FONT> <HR> Uzhiel Wrote: <P><FONT size=2>I mean, the only reason he posts is to cause even more flaming and trolling. Its like he enjoys sticking a pencil in Guardians eyes.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P><FONT size=2></FONT> <HR> <P><FONT size=2>Haha, funny you say that. The way I see it, Gaige has coherent and logical posts relating to the guardians class. It seems that you just detest him for frequently posting in the Guardian forum even if his posts are of relevance to your class. You guys make it into a flame war by battering him with unjustified insults and criticism, thus derailing your thread by stabbing a pencil in your own eye.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P>

[Ladicav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> goawaynow wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P><FONT size=2>Haha, funny you say that. The way I see it, Gaige has coherent and logical posts relating to the guardians class. It seems that you just detest him for frequently posting in the Guardian forum even if his posts are of relevance to your class. You guys make it into a flame war by battering him with unjustified insults and criticism, thus derailing your thread by stabbing a pencil in your own eye.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not really. Gaige at times often gets worked up in the emotion of it all just the same as many others do, myself included sometimes. I don't detest Gaige at all, but his thoughts are once again only opinions, just like everyone elses. Everyone likes to think their opinons are fact, Gaige isn't any different. </P> <P>His posts are not always logical nor coherent. I can show you a lot of threads now where Gaige's posts have had their content either removed or moderated either due to containing flame bait, or attacking another author.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:38 PM</span>

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> goawaynow wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P><FONT size=2>Haha, funny you say that. The way I see it, Gaige has coherent and logical posts relating to the guardians class. It seems that you just detest him for frequently posting in the Guardian forum even if his posts are of relevance to your class. You guys make it into a flame war by battering him with unjustified insults and criticism, thus derailing your thread by stabbing a pencil in your own eye.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hmmm....... Wonder what logical and coherent point he was making in this post?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P> <P>Message Edited by Raijinnstein's Monster on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>11-01-2005</FONT></SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>I like to take long walks on the beach <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Gaige]

<P>I knew it was going to be moderated when I posted it, since I had just reported the previous post (the one I quoted and made fun of) right before I posted it.</P> <P>/shrug</P>

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>I knew it was going to be moderated when I posted it, since I had just reported the previous post (the one I quoted and made fun of) right before I posted it.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>My guardian harvested Severed Sandlewood today <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Qilin]

<DIV>I beleive your wrong on this one Gaige, Vanguard will have much more than a moderate subcription base.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Vanguard isn't going to do anything except what EQ2 is doing.  Have a moderate subscription base and be profitable.  </P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>10-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:02 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[TheGeneral]

<P>The one thing I do have to agree with so far is that the "WOW" factor and the awe that a lot of us experienced in EQ1 has come and gone.  It will never come again.  A few of my guildmates who are RL friends and I had this discussion a few weeks after EQ2 came out.  That first dragon kill, the first piece of fear armor, the long CR in fear, kunark, velious, luclin (Cringe Emp Ssra kills), planes, and so on.  There was so much adventure, so much time consumed, and so much was new and had never been seen before.  Do I miss it? Heck yeah, but I do not want to ever invest that type of time in a game again.</P> <P>EQ2 is just what it is, EQ2.  It is not, will not turn into, and will never be EQ1.  Nothing ever will.  New is only new one time.  Nothing gold can stay.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qilin wrote:<BR> <DIV>I beleive your wrong on this one Gaige, Vanguard will have much more than a moderate subcription base. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>What makes you think that?  It has no elements that drive the leading MMO in the world, WoW.<BR>

[Vulking]

<P>No one knows really how successful Vanguard or DDo will be or how many subscriptions either will eventually have and hold onto.</P> <P>I can tell you this, if they lack content, depth to said content, and variety they will not last either.</P>

[spa]

<DIV>Vanguards elements?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone was to read what each game offered, id say Vanguard would awe the most. Literally everything about what ive read from Vanguard sounds great. The only thing it might not have over EQ2 is the voiceovers, as thats not been announced yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw about what an earlier poster mentioned about happy times in EQ1 and doesnt happen in EQ2, Gaige said it wont happen again because its part of the "your first MMO" thing. How many of us have felt that feeling here in EQ2? I doubt anyone or very little has. EQ2 is a small yet... interesting -  to some high fantasy MMOG, it has no sense of realism in the fantasy sort of way and doesnt feel like a true MMOG like EQ was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2 is just a game. EQ is what made MMOG's inspired to be addictive. EQ2 is interesting to a degree, but what mainly keeps alot of its players here is great graphics. Vanguard has great graphics - more or less, compared to EQ2.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>WoW has elements that lead to huge worldwide success and 5,000,000 players or more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of these are tied into a casual playstyle, although I'm sure some of it is because its made by Blizzard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanguard on the other hand, seems to want to bring back to the table a lot of things about EQ1 that people hated, lol.</DIV>

[spa]

<DIV>Hated, what like?</DIV>

[Nemi]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Grind. Lots of grind.</FONT></DIV>

[spa]

<DIV>Like all MMORPG's. So fun.</DIV>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Grind. Lots of grind.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You talking about EQ2?  Yeah, there's lots of Grind here too. 

[Gaige]

No instancing, 100% contested content, long travel times, quite probably xp loss, corpse runs, hell levels and a huge focus on the raid game.  For starters.

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>As long as they can put all that content in the game, and still let it be that people can get something accomplished in a 2-3hr time frame Ill be a happy paying customer.</P> <P>What kill EQ1 for me was just the time sink. I loved the game, but I just dont have 8-10hrs a day to log on to get anything accomplished like raiding.  But Vanguard "promises" to cater to the non 10hr a day players, as well as those people...guess only time will tell.</P> <P>Covenant</P>

[spa]

<DIV>Named's for quests will spawn as you get near their spawn area.</DIV> <DIV>Travel will be fun, not like anything other MMOG's have done.</DIV> <DIV>xp loss, or xp debt, whats the differance? not much.</DIV> <DIV>Corpse runs, same thing in EQ2 - get your shard.</DIV> <DIV>What are hell levels?</DIV> <DIV>Some focus on raids isnt a bad thing, EQ2 has extremely very little of it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by spark on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:06 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>As long as they can put all that content in the game, and still let it be that people can get something accomplished in a 2-3hr time frame Ill be a happy paying customer.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm pretty sure this isn't going to happen.  Brad posted a few places that the game isn't really for casuals and that big chunks of time will be needed to be successful at it.<BR>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Ive also read a couple posts that said the "plan on having enough content for casual gamers always to have something to do."  Not that Im a casual player...but I fall way short of Hard Core...I play 4-5nights a week, but only about 2 of em are 5hrs or more.  Im hoping Vanguard can and will reward a player with my time frames.  I have a newborn on the way too, should be here around mid summer, so who knows how much time ill have to play then...</P> <P>But as it stands now Im just disgusted with what SOE did to my class..but the good news is Im having fun twinking and playing a bruiser..23 levels in 4 days GO ME!!!</P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR>No instancing, 100% contested content, long travel times, quite probably xp loss, corpse runs, hell levels and a huge focus on the raid game.  For starters. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My Guardian has an AXE, <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  and he knows how to read up on things like Sigil's AES style of instancing, linear leveling, solo and group content geared for casual players <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greytoon wrote:<BR>My Guardian has an AXE, <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  and he knows how to read up on things like Sigil's AES style of instancing, linear leveling, solo and group content geared for casual players <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, I've also read about how raid mobs will only allow so many players to engage and if its more it'll fly away.  </P> <P>I'll believe all of that, when I see it.</P> <P>The game is hardcore, I don't think anyone is trying to hide that fact.  He even made up a new group of people its geared for:  "Core Players".<BR></P>

[TanRaistlyn]

Is there really just one person visioning this game and building it to creation?  Cuz I always see you using the terms "He visions, or He is making" <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV>

[Gaige]

Brad McQuaid is making this game.  Make no doubt that 99.9% of what happens to it will go through him and be his idea.

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Interesting thats a lot of pressure and stress to put on one person...there has to be more people involved in the ideas and creation of this game.  You cant expect one person to bare the brunt of some 500k subscribers(so they hope) upon release.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh BTW I did know who you were speaking of when you wrote "he" Im very familiar with Brad's work in EQ.  I was just surprised to see everyone keeps referring to Vanguard as HIS game, HIS vision, and HIS work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV><p>Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[Gungo]

yeah its basically brad's posts. But as far as i am hearing he has been riding the fence liek moorgard has on alot of issues. When i first heard about vangaurd it was touted as the hard core raider game. Now i am hearing more and more of the casual player side. Like many other only time will tell. The one good thing i cna say about vangaurd is they have alot of good longtime MMORPG talent on thier list. So one can hope it ships with less bugs and a stronger vision then current MMORPG's. Now whether thier vision turns out to be what You as a player likes is a different story. Personally i would love a true hardcore catered game. In fact imho they should make 1 true raid tank class, but they have 3 tanks in vanguard lets hope they balance them as well as SOE has.

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: <P>Yes, I've also read about how raid mobs will only allow so many players to engage and if its more it'll fly away.  </P> <P>I'll believe all of that, when I see it.</P> <P>The game is hardcore, I don't think anyone is trying to hide that fact.  He even made up a new group of people its geared for:  "Core Players".<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My guardian plays in EQ2 where there are mobs who will only allow so many people to group and raid them. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR>Is there really just one person visioning this game and building it to creation?  Cuz I always see you using the terms "He visions, or He is making" <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My guardian can not count very high <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://www.sigilgames.com/cat_our_team.php" target=_blank>http://www.sigilgames.com/cat_our_team.php</A></P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Hehehe that was witty!!!</P> <P>Covenant</P>

[ObsidianNightmare]

Gaige In all of your 7000+ posts (which is alot more than about 13 of the server community forums can boast as of this date), I have not read 1 gem of wisdom which actually stood out and made me think you were on to something. Enjoy your Fanboi title. Guardians... Being a swashbuckler as my main class.. I have gained alot due to the combat upgrade and I give you a great big hug. The OP is my co-guild leader and I am missing him as a regular protector of the groups i am in.. When a swashbuckler can protect the group better than a Guardian.. there is a problem. Peace Phthalo <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ObsidianNightmare wrote:<BR>Gaige<BR><BR>In all of your 7000+ posts (which is alot more than about 13 of the server community forums can boast as of this date), I have not read 1 gem of wisdom which actually stood out and made me think you were on to something.<BR><BR>Enjoy your Fanboi title. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You read all 7,000+ of them?  Wow.</P> <P>Oh and I do enjoy my title, thank you.<BR></P>

[Ladicav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ObsidianNightmare wrote:<BR>When a swashbuckler can protect the group better than a Guardian.. there is a problem.<BR><BR>Peace<BR>Phthalo<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Amen.</P> <P>*Bows head and observes a minutes silence*<BR></P>

[Hend]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>I have a newborn on the way too, should be here around mid summer, so who knows how much time ill have to play then...</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>None! :smileywink:</P> <P>Let me see.... mid summer minus 9 months. Someting tells me you haven't been playing 7-24 since LU13. Maybe the nerf did some good after all. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Good luck!</P> <P>Vork, 52 guardian<BR></P>

[Frostborne]

<div></div>Well just some observations from the other side, that being WoW: Started off my new Warrior yesterday, and there are definetly some differences I noticed, but suprisingly almost everything was the same as EQ2 (chat interface, combat commands, resting).  Maybe it's not surprising.... 1.) The starter area they put you in has guys standing around that offers quests, very similar to EQ2.  The  quests actually tell you what you get for doing them, as well as the the item and it's benefits.  No more going offsite to check what items you're getting for what quest and if you even need them.  The quest givers also are marked by a question mark above their head letting you know that you can get a quest from them....so no longer waiting till level xx not knowing when you can get a quest from someone or if you ever can, though this doesn't completley solve the problem of going offsite for information, like when to come back to the quest giver, it at least is a start. 2.) No quest/npc trails, no personal housing, just an "inn".  I liked the quest/location trails since it saves lots of time from running around aimlesslly.  One thing WoW doesn't have.  This is especially bad when you're new to the game and have no idea where an NPC is located and run around just missing him because he's behind some trees.  That lack of a "room" to call your own is missed as well.  I liked putting all my quest junk around my house, it was sort of a testiment to my virtual accomplishments, though most of it was crafted, haha! 3.)  <b>No sprint</b>!  Well whenver you get a pack of mobs on you, unless your class gives you some sort of run spell, you're dead.  No running away in this game.  It does make getting around pretty slow, since you basically can't ever use sprint as a way of cutting the down time between locations. 4.)<b> Skills</b>!  I like the idea that you can customiize your character with certain build skills, making him how you want.  So if I want a Guardian, I can choose skills based on accomplishing that.  So no more whinning from other characters that they can't take as well as you!  You can also make DPS classes as well, or a hybrid of both.  They have Paladins which are similar to ours, which have healing and wards, but again, those accomplish their mission differently that the Warriors.  Now the downside!  You have to buy your skills.  Why is this a big deal?  Well they do retrains every so often, which potentially can cause you to have to buy back your skills you already have trained.  I think that's what happens, anyways, that could suck.  You don't get any "free" skills per level, you have to first level up to them, then buy them.  Money is easy to get so no big deal.  There are no spell "levels" it's either trained or it isn't.  I kind of like that, kind of don't but I can live with it.  I like the idea of say, having all the paladin/beserker/monk/guardian line skills being tossed into a big pot and allowing you to choose what you want to do with your skills.  The sort of "preset" design forced on you kind of the personality out of the characters, especially when if those skills got changed *cough* *cough*, you couldn't dump them from your character in lieu of something better. 5.) The graphics, well they in my opinion are mediocre.  It's pretty mind you, but not even close to the level of detail of EQ.  However there is more variety, which almost makes up for it.  Also, the guys/girls models have the most unshapely figures to them.  I made a night elf female just so if I had to grind I have something nice to look at, and they can't compare to that of the wood elves, high elves, or dark elves.  On top of that the body and features of the characters aren't nearly as customizable, though that might mean little to most people. 6.)  Quests are pretty much the same, not much of note there. 7.)  Money seems pretty easy to get since everything there sells to a vendor for a decent amount.  Food also drops, so no need to buy that from a vendor unless you need to. 8.) The leveling "seems" a bit slower, not sure if this is because I knew the best locations to level new characters in EQ2, but getting to 15 could take me a few hours in EQ2, but was only able to get to 9 in WoW.   There is also no experience "debt", but your gear does take damage on death, so that was kind of nice. That's about all I've experienced so far, and after a few hours of grinding last night I wasn't that impressing coming from the EQ2 background.  There are alot of feature I like, some I don't, but it's just the same thing, different location.  I will say, they have a lot more servers, and offer pvp, normal, rvr and rp for those of you into that sort of thing.  There were also many new people playing on my server, though not sure if they were rerolls or actually really new to the game.   I know at least on my server almost every new person/low level  is an alt. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Frostborne on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 AM</span>