Explain to me our lack of dps

[TunaBoo]

Explain to me why guardian should have even 1 less point of DPS then monks or zerkers or pallys or SKs.. why even 1% or .1% less dps? Why? Until SOE can explain this question, they need to adjust all fighter dps to be the same, since all tanking dps is the same. /this is your daily guards still are underpowered thread <p></p>

[Aaliamz]

There is a simple explanation - it is imbalanced. <p></p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>I agree with you, which is kidna rare, but oh well..currently Paladins and Guardians have the most craptastic of all fighter DPS and even some healer DPS, which puts us close to dead last. </P> <P>If all tanks tank equally, why do some have so much more DPS than others?</P> <P> </P> <P></P>

[Krooner]

<P>Because SOE in their infinate wisdom gave Brawlers the privy of aquiring hate by damage. We aquire hate by hate.</P> <P>Why is this imbalanced.  simple.  They generate hate by killing the mob.. mobs dead.. XP in the bag.. loot in the bag..</P> <P>Guardian generates hate by taunting.. no damage to the mob... takes us 2 beers and a bowl of chips to kill the same mob and sometimes we die to it because were stunned long enough to rid ourselves of one of those beers..... flush.</P> <P> </P> <P></P>

[Zhonata]

<P>Guardian dont nor should ever have an equal dps with the rest of the fighter class what would be the point of a beserker ( ie me) in the warrior sublcass then. With us both in <STRONG>defense mode</STRONG> we have basically have the same defense accept you hold aggro far far better ( IE your 3 cyclign taunts and 2 group taunts vs. my 2 cycling taunts 1 group taunt and 3 min Insolent gibe not to mention your maddening stance give you aggro ever hit mine only has 20% chance and you can drop 28% of any grpy you want.). All of the zerker aggro control is focused around doing damage to multiple opponents thus allowing us to hold aggro. This forces us to be in offensive stance taking a heck of alot more damage ( ie my 18.6% avoidance vs your 53% avoidance) and doing more damage than the rest of the group and even then i see guardians having a slight aggro advantage with their abilty to drop 28% hate off any specific person. Tanks <STRONG>NUMBER 1</STRONG> job is to hold aggro. Guardian offer the best defense and aggro control vs offesive abilty than any other tank. Whether you all want to admit it or not. I do no where near as much damage as a scout or mage class, i do alot but dont even compete for a dps class slot.</P> <P>There is is explained. Bottum line Best tank with aggro control = best tank. You have awsome defense and the most hate accreing abilities in the game only competeing with <STRONG><FONT size=4>1</FONT></STRONG> of the palidins abilties be happy <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Granted I do think that your Protective buff need to be restated and powered up to fit your class. also seeming kidna pointless is your "protective abilties" ability to kill you so easily perhaps they should simle make the damge mitigated instead of unmitagated cause takign 100% of all unmitigated damage is stupid, what did you all decide to take your armor off for the monster i dont things so......</P>

[TunaBoo]

A zerker is going to tell me to my face guardians hold aggro better?  lmfao You realize how much hate crap like berserk procs are, and how often they go off? <p></p>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>A zerker is going to tell me to my face guardians hold aggro better?  lmfao<BR><BR>You realize how much hate crap like berserk procs are, and how often they go off?<BR> <P></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Before the combat changes I would agree with you Tuna.  After the combat changes...  that is a different story.  It appears buffs do not have as much agro ability as they used to.

[Sasaki Koji]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <P>Guardian dont nor should ever have an equal dps with the rest of the fighter class what would be the point of a beserker ( ie me) in the warrior sublcass then. With us both in <STRONG>defense mode</STRONG> we have basically have the same defense accept you hold aggro far far better ( IE your 3 cyclign taunts and 2 group taunts vs. my 2 cycling taunts 1 group taunt and 3 min Insolent gibe not to mention your maddening stance give you aggro ever hit mine only has 20% chance and you can drop 28% of any grpy you want.). All of the zerker aggro control is focused around doing damage to multiple opponents thus allowing us to hold aggro. This forces us to be in offensive stance taking a heck of alot more damage ( ie my 18.6% avoidance vs your 53% avoidance) and doing more damage than the rest of the group and even then i see guardians having a slight aggro advantage with their abilty to drop 28% hate off any specific person. Tanks <STRONG>NUMBER 1</STRONG> job is to hold aggro. Guardian offer the best defense and aggro control vs offesive abilty than any other tank. Whether you all want to admit it or not. I do no where near as much damage as a scout or mage class, i do alot but dont even compete for a dps class slot.</P> <P>There is is explained. Bottum line Best tank with aggro control = best tank. You have awsome defense and the most hate accreing abilities in the game only competeing with <STRONG><FONT size=4>1</FONT></STRONG> of the palidins abilties be happy <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Granted I do think that your Protective buff need to be restated and powered up to fit your class. also seeming kidna pointless is your "protective abilties" ability to kill you so easily perhaps they should simle make the damge mitigated instead of unmitagated cause takign 100% of all unmitigated damage is stupid, what did you all decide to take your armor off for the monster i dont things so......</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>the point of bezerker would be different utility. I do wonder if some guardians even have CA's on thier hotbar other than taunts... like Retaliate/Quelling strike and Blast... or bother to make these adept III or any of their other non-taunt CA's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heres a post from a guardian with good DPS:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=24716" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=24716</A></DIV><p>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <span class=date_text>10-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:18 AM</span>

[Veshtan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sasaki Kojiro wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <P>Guardian dont nor should ever have an equal dps with the rest of the fighter class what would be the point of a beserker ( ie me) in the warrior sublcass then. With us both in <STRONG>defense mode</STRONG> we have basically have the same defense accept you hold aggro far far better ( IE your 3 cyclign taunts and 2 group taunts vs. my 2 cycling taunts 1 group taunt and 3 min Insolent gibe not to mention your maddening stance give you aggro ever hit mine only has 20% chance and you can drop 28% of any grpy you want.). All of the zerker aggro control is focused around doing damage to multiple opponents thus allowing us to hold aggro. This forces us to be in offensive stance taking a heck of alot more damage ( ie my 18.6% avoidance vs your 53% avoidance) and doing more damage than the rest of the group and even then i see guardians having a slight aggro advantage with their abilty to drop 28% hate off any specific person. Tanks <STRONG>NUMBER 1</STRONG> job is to hold aggro. Guardian offer the best defense and aggro control vs offesive abilty than any other tank. Whether you all want to admit it or not. I do no where near as much damage as a scout or mage class, i do alot but dont even compete for a dps class slot.</P> <P>There is is explained. Bottum line Best tank with aggro control = best tank. You have awsome defense and the most hate accreing abilities in the game only competeing with <STRONG><FONT size=4>1</FONT></STRONG> of the palidins abilties be happy <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Granted I do think that your Protective buff need to be restated and powered up to fit your class. also seeming kidna pointless is your "protective abilties" ability to kill you so easily perhaps they should simle make the damge mitigated instead of unmitagated cause takign 100% of all unmitigated damage is stupid, what did you all decide to take your armor off for the monster i dont things so......</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>the point of bezerker would be different utility. I do wonder if some guardians even have CA's on thier hotbar other than taunts... like Retaliate/Quelling strike and Blast... or bother to make these adept III or any of their other non-taunt CA's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heres a post from a guardian with good DPS:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=24716" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=24716</A></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <SPAN class=date_text>10-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:18 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That, unfortunately doesn't really count, Sasaki.  He's in a  group and who knows what kind of buffs he has had put on him to help him achieve that damage.   I can do good DPS too when i've had haste applied to me and had damage shields put on me as well.  But that isn't MY DPS, it's someone else adding to my DPS, so if you want to get technical, it's really THEIR DPS, just done indirectly.  We're talking about our raw DPS, our ability to solo...which we don't have.  We couldn't before, we accepted that because we were better then everyone else in tanking.  Now that we're even in tanking, we need to be even in DPS.  There can be no argument against that.  If you want equality and balance in tanking, you need to have equality and balance in EVERYTHING.  You can't in good conscience argue for one and say that's okay and then ignore the other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And with all due respect to whomever said we're the best at taunting....that don't mean jack when our taunts get resisted left, right and center (happens often with me, and my wife gets beat down when it does).  Nor does it mean jack when we're soloing.  That's where SOE botched things up REAL bad.  Taunting by DPS is fine..but you must realize that DPS brings a lot more to the table then just taunting, and helps your character a lot more then just a pure Taunt.   For some reason SOE chose to ignore, or just didn't realize, that a character has a lot more going for them when they taunt by DPS then when they taunt by a skill.  Yes, taunting by DPS is more risky.....but i say to you....that risk in no way balances with how much the extra DPS helps your class compared to my Taunt skills.</DIV>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Veshtan wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sasaki Kojiro wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <P>Guardian dont nor should ever have an equal dps with the rest of the fighter class what would be the point of a beserker ( ie me) in the warrior sublcass then. With us both in <STRONG>defense mode</STRONG> we have basically have the same defense accept you hold aggro far far better ( IE your 3 cyclign taunts and 2 group taunts vs. my 2 cycling taunts 1 group taunt and 3 min Insolent gibe not to mention your maddening stance give you aggro ever hit mine only has 20% chance and you can drop 28% of any grpy you want.). All of the zerker aggro control is focused around doing damage to multiple opponents thus allowing us to hold aggro. This forces us to be in offensive stance taking a heck of alot more damage ( ie my 18.6% avoidance vs your 53% avoidance) and doing more damage than the rest of the group and even then i see guardians having a slight aggro advantage with their abilty to drop 28% hate off any specific person. Tanks <STRONG>NUMBER 1</STRONG> job is to hold aggro. Guardian offer the best defense and aggro control vs offesive abilty than any other tank. Whether you all want to admit it or not. I do no where near as much damage as a scout or mage class, i do alot but dont even compete for a dps class slot.</P> <P>There is is explained. Bottum line Best tank with aggro control = best tank. You have awsome defense and the most hate accreing abilities in the game only competeing with <STRONG><FONT size=4>1</FONT></STRONG> of the palidins abilties be happy <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Granted I do think that your Protective buff need to be restated and powered up to fit your class. also seeming kidna pointless is your "protective abilties" ability to kill you so easily perhaps they should simle make the damge mitigated instead of unmitagated cause takign 100% of all unmitigated damage is stupid, what did you all decide to take your armor off for the monster i dont things so......</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>the point of bezerker would be different utility. I do wonder if some guardians even have CA's on thier hotbar other than taunts... like Retaliate/Quelling strike and Blast... or bother to make these adept III or any of their other non-taunt CA's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heres a post from a guardian with good DPS:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=24716" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=24716</A></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <SPAN class=date_text>10-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:18 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That, unfortunately doesn't really count, Sasaki.  He's in a  group and who knows what kind of buffs he has had put on him to help him achieve that damage.   I can do good DPS too when i've had haste applied to me and had damage shields put on me as well.  But that isn't MY DPS, it's someone else adding to my DPS, so if you want to get technical, it's really THEIR DPS, just done indirectly.  We're talking about our raw DPS, our ability to solo...which we don't have.  We couldn't before, we accepted that because we were better then everyone else in tanking.  Now that we're even in tanking, we need to be even in DPS.  There can be no argument against that.  If you want equality and balance in tanking, you need to have equality and balance in EVERYTHING.  You can't in good conscience argue for one and say that's okay and then ignore the other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And with all due respect to whomever said we're the best at taunting....that don't mean jack when our taunts get resisted left, right and center (happens often with me, and my wife gets beat down when it does).  Nor does it mean jack when we're soloing.  That's where SOE botched things up REAL bad.  Taunting by DPS is fine..but you must realize that DPS brings a lot more to the table then just taunting, and helps your character a lot more then just a pure Taunt.   For some reason SOE chose to ignore, or just didn't realize, that a character has a lot more going for them when they taunt by DPS then when they taunt by a skill.  Yes, taunting by DPS is more risky.....but i say to you....that risk in no way balances with how much the extra DPS helps your class compared to my Taunt skills.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If he can get that high DPS in a group, then i really dont see what the problem is. I do more DPS if im in offensive stance and someone gives me proc buffs, str buffs, and int buffs as well. A Warrior or brawler can do more damage than me with just autoattack, given the fact that they have way more str, and dual wield wepons really hurt (put together, same rating as 2h weapons but better stats).</P> <P>And if youre talking solo, its already been made clear that some classes can solo better than others. Guardian is unfortunantly on the bottom of the fighter soloablity chain, but they can still solo.</P> <P>Groups make people better at various things. If my Shadowknight in the same group as a guardian and berzerker, with the berzerker tanking and me and the guardian DPSing, the guardian would do more damage because haste helps them more than it does me. My 200str vs thier 400str. I have to acually use my skills and spells to catch up. Not to mention all that str increases ALL of thier CA damage. being able to do good dps and use less power doing it is a plus.</P>

[Moralpanic]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sasaki Kojiro wrote:<div></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> Zhonata wrote: <p>Guardian dont nor should ever have an equal dps with the rest of the fighter class what would be the point of a beserker ( ie me) in the warrior sublcass then. With us both in <strong>defense mode</strong> we have basically have the same defense accept you hold aggro far far better ( IE your 3 cyclign taunts and 2 group taunts vs. my 2 cycling taunts 1 group taunt and 3 min Insolent gibe not to mention your maddening stance give you aggro ever hit mine only has 20% chance and you can drop 28% of any grpy you want.). All of the zerker aggro control is focused around doing damage to multiple opponents thus allowing us to hold aggro. This forces us to be in offensive stance taking a heck of alot more damage ( ie my 18.6% avoidance vs your 53% avoidance) and doing more damage than the rest of the group and even then i see guardians having a slight aggro advantage with their abilty to drop 28% hate off any specific person. Tanks <strong>NUMBER 1</strong> job is to hold aggro. Guardian offer the best defense and aggro control vs offesive abilty than any other tank. Whether you all want to admit it or not. I do no where near as much damage as a scout or mage class, i do alot but dont even compete for a dps class slot.</p> <p>There is is explained. Bottum line Best tank with aggro control = best tank. You have awsome defense and the most hate accreing abilities in the game only competeing with <strong><font size="4">1</font></strong> of the palidins abilties be happy <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>Granted I do think that your Protective buff need to be restated and powered up to fit your class. also seeming kidna pointless is your "protective abilties" ability to kill you so easily perhaps they should simle make the damge mitigated instead of unmitagated cause takign 100% of all unmitigated damage is stupid, what did you all decide to take your armor off for the monster i dont things so......</p> <hr> </blockquote>the point of bezerker would be different utility. I do wonder if some guardians even have CA's on thier hotbar other than taunts... like Retaliate/Quelling strike and Blast... or bother to make these adept III or any of their other non-taunt CA's.</div> <div> </div> <div>Heres a post from a guardian with good DPS:</div> <div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=24716" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=24716</a></div><p>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <span class="date_text">10-28-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:18 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Oh freaking please, just because somebody posted a single screenshot you're going to take that as gospel?  We don't do anything NEAR that on a consistent basis... more like 1/4th of that.</span><div></div>

[Dart]

If I post a screen shot of me doing 1600 DPS would you believe me if I said I do it all the time? I really like the top line where it says "Post that one". How about that same guy/gal post all of his DPS SS's for the night. Lets see how they average out) <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[a6eaq]

<P>If we didn't get stunned/stiffled in regular ole XP grind groups, we would have an advantage with our taunts.  If MD would proc thru a ward we would have an easy time of keeping agro.  The problem with a Zerker/Monk/whoever looking at the number of taunts we have, and not look at an average fight to see just how little they actually get used due us being stunned/stiffled, it looks as if we should have no problem keeping agro.  Therefore, they say we are still the best.  </P> <P>Fact is, when stunned we get 1 count it everyone 1 taunt that we can use.  It is a group taunt and guess what, the timer is what 30 seconds.  Now throw in that MD sucks power which causes tank med breaks and slows down XP, and does not proc when we are warded, and a more realistic picture appears.  We get stunned, we have 1 taunt, we use it, now we have got MD to proc, oops we are getting hit, Mystic throws another ward on us to KEEP US ALIVE, now MD doesn't proc anymore, great no agro generation.  Stun drops, we taunt, get hit, stunned again, oops, can't taunt due to AE taunt down, and no proc from MD due to a ward, well we stand there twiddling our thumbs, Wizzy hits with Ice Comet, now there goes agro to Wizzy, guess we gotta use Rescue now, once the stun drops...</P> <P>Sure there are fights that go better than that, we all know it, but other classes just don't see how it all works in the big scheme of things.  We do have more taunts so SOE drops our DPS.  Ok I am kinda ok with that, but then they add the stuns and ward issue with MD (Hope it is a bug that will get fixed) and we really are nowhere near as effective as pajama tanks because they can avoid being stunned more than we can and the added DPS they get helps them hold agro better than us and kill the mobs faster.  Therefore, we are not balanced and they now have an advantage.  oh well, MG is happy though.</P>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>If SOE followed your logic making 6 fighters with the same offensive and tanking capabilities would make absolutely no sense. question why bother?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that's the case we'd all be fighters, they want diversification in the tanks, some are offensive some are defensive...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for DPS why should we have the same offensive capabilities when we're a defensive tank?</DIV>

[GryffinMM]

<P>I have to agree.  Let this mythical 'utility' stand on its own (which ours is STILL hugely lacking).  We need the same freak'n DPS as the best of the fighters.  They tank as well as us, then we need to DPS as well as they do.</P> <P>As for agro, they can just get their own [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] CA's upgraded so that they can hold agro without the dps; although I put it to you that we need the same dps they get to hold agro due to some pretty fooked up game mechanics.</P> <P>In fact, let me state here and now, that just as the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] pajama wearers needed MORE defense to overcome their past stereo type of *coughbull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]cough* not *coughbull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]cough* being tanks, we need MORE DPS than they have so folks will come to see US as valuable members of a group (instead of what we are now).</P> <P>Sigh me up as a DPS tank.</P> <P>As for dps-tanks complaining 'oh, waaah, why would people pick me then', WELCOME TO OUR WORLD!!  You are all now the same TANK we are, so we'll be the same (or freak'n better to make up for our past and fooked up utility) DPS you are!  Woot!  What a wonderful world you've decided to create!</P> <P>Gryffin Skystrider, one bent Guardian</P>

[TunaBoo]

If you think I tank 1-2% better then anyone else.. prove it to me, cuz I don't see it. EVEN if we did tank 1% better then bruiser, why do we have 75% less dps? Give me 1% less dps then. <div></div>

[Burningho]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grantron wrote:<BR><BR>Actually you do have that 1% / 2% edge in tanking. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What makes you say that?  What facts can you give to backup that statement?  Sony has stated their goal is different but equal tanking, and appearantly they think they have met that goal.  No class will have an edge in tanking overall, but each class will be situationally better against certain mobs.  Tanking is equal.    There is no such thing as a defensive tank anymore. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grantron wrote:<BR><BR>And you want to dps the same too?  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yes.  Absolutely.  We tank equally, we should dps equally.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grantron wrote:<BR><BR> Calm down there buddy you cant have best of both worlds. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Appearantly bruisers can, because they tank equally and have much better dps.  Sounds to many of us like brusiers already have the best of both worlds.<BR></DIV>

[Ladicav]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Tuna you make a very good point, if we are all meant to be the same now, then Guardians, and I also guess Paladins need a signifcant boost in DPS, since Paladin DPS isn't exactly flash either.</P> <P></P> <HR> Grantron wrote:<BR><BR>Actually you do have that 1% / 2% edge in tanking. :smileyhappy: . And you want to dps the same too? Calm down there buddy you cant have best of both worlds. <BR> <HR> <P><BR>Why cannot we have the best of both worlds when monks and bruisers do? You claim 1 to 2% more tanking efficiency to Guardians...1 to 2 whole percent is meant to be our thank you compared to the DPS monks and bruisers dish out? Are you serious??<BR></P> <P>DPS helps maintain agro, this is easy to see, just ask any high powered DPS class how easy it is for them to get agro. I know if my taunts get resisted there is no way in hell I can get agro back by DPS alone. Guardian DPS is bottom of the barrel, yet we are meant to be unsung heroes at holding taunt/agro. DPS is just as important in the whole hate generation equation as taunt spells are. So, if we are meant to be equal, lift our DPS and make our taunts less resistable. I think just those 2 things should be enough to make Guardians on par again.</P>

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Grantron wrote:</P> <P><BR>Actually you do have that 1% / 2% edge in tanking. :smileyhappy: . And you want to dps the same too? Calm down there buddy you cant have best of both worlds.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not entirely sure where you came up with this.  If it's true, I'd have to see some parses to believe it, because MG actually stated that BRAWLERS have the slight tanking advantage, so that they can overcome their red-headed stepchild reputation (ok so I embelished a bit, he didn't really say it quite like that but it sounds good).  Anyhow, point being I'd be willing to guess that your wrong here, and that if anyone has a tanking advantage it's brawlers (Devs, just how far up your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are your heads anyways?)</P> <P>If things are working "as intended" then we do not have a tanking advantage.  If they leave it like this, then we shouldn't have a DPS disadvantage either.  However, that isn't what I want to see, I want to see them put the defensive tank back in the game.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grantron wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Burninghope wrote:<BR> <P>I agree with you 100%, Tuna.</P> <P>SOE has stated time and again that all fighters are (or will be) equal at <FONT color=#ff0000>tanking</FONT>.  That means to be truly balanced, the sum of dps<FONT color=#ff0000>(in this case Guardians have the most taunts! Not to mention the most effective vrs non mental resist mobs. Which needs to change some might say.)</FONT> also need to be equal across all fighters.  Anything else is unbalanced.  </P> <DIV>How can anyone believe it is balanced to have equal tanking, lowest dps, and utility that is rarely useful?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You mean the taunts that get resisted repeatedly?  It wouldn't do us any good to have a million taunts because they get resisted over and over against any challenging mob.</P> <P>I've asked a few DPS classes that have made it to 60 who they thought held the best aggro now.  None of them said guardian.  Maybe we have the most theoretical aggro, but we don't appear to have the most real aggro.</P>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:If you think I tank 1-2% better then anyone else.. prove it to me, cuz I don't see it. EVEN if we did tank 1% better then bruiser, why do we have 75% less dps? Give me 1% less dps then. <div></div><hr></blockquote>If you don't see it you need to have your head examined.</span><div></div>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Burninghope wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grantron wrote:<BR><BR>Actually you do have that 1% / 2% edge in tanking. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What makes you say that?  What facts can you give to backup that statement?  Sony has stated their goal is different but equal tanking, and appearantly they think they have met that goal.  No class will have an edge in tanking overall, but each class will be situationally better against certain mobs.  Tanking is equal.    There is no such thing as a defensive tank anymore. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If I had to make a wild guess I would say he is referring to the Guardian group defense buff which adds less then 3% to the avoidance of a group.  So yes, Guardians tank better then other plate tanks.</DIV>

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogar wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>If I had to make a wild guess I would say he is referring to the Guardian group defense buff which adds less then 3% to the avoidance of a group.  So yes, Guardians tank better then other plate tanks.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The fact that we have a buff that adds defense doesn't mean we tank better.  Your making a huge assumption that we tank equally before that buff.  Regardless, 1-3% isn't anything to argue about.  Counter that with the fact that brawlers avoid 360 deg and your probably wrong anyways.<BR>

[craized warrior]

<P>I was read through this thread and came across this:</P> <P> </P> <DIV>"If SOE followed your logic making 6 fighters with the same offensive and tanking capabilities would make absolutely no sense. question why bother?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that's the case we'd all be fighters, they want diversification in the tanks, some are offensive some are defensive...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for DPS why should we have the same offensive capabilities when we're a defensive tank?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why the hell can the DPS fighters tank as well as the Tank fighter classes?? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yet still be able to do wayy more DPS than the tanks?? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE say its balancing the game, how the hell is it balanced when one class has all the advantages over the other classes??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and it needs sorting out, they either make each class exactly the same, ie every class has the same tanking ability and same offensive ability OR they give and take for each class - the tanks have better defensive ability but less offensive and the DPS are the reverse. until then the fighters are sorely imbalanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was under the impression that one of the main reasons for the changes was to accomodate PvP which came along with DoF, yet how could i (a guardian) hope to beat a same level, same equiped monk for instance when then can take my damage and give back a boatload more? i have no chance, yet they call this balancing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I started a guardian because i believed i was going to be the MT class, because i didnt want to be a DPS class or utility class i wanted to be the guy taking the hits at the front, but now a year after the game was realeased ive been upstaged by a guy wearing leather armour? what the hell??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It needs sorting out because quite frankly its quite disgusting what has been happening to our class and i notice none of the devs play guardians but quite a few play monk types....</DIV>

[Timzil]

<P>I endorse the OPs concerns and recommended course of action. SOE, please feel free to either nerf all other fighter DPS or increase Guardian DPS as required to bring the ATs into balance.</P> <P>Spudge: PH for a 58 Guardian, and Eyer of non-SOE gaming products.</P> <P>You have become better at choosing balanced games. (134)</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> craized warrior wrote: <DIV>I was under the impression that one of the main reasons for the changes was to accomodate PvP which came along with DoF, yet how could i (a guardian) hope to beat a same level, same equiped monk for instance when then can take my damage and give back a boatload more? i have no chance, yet they call this balancing?  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  PvP is balanced seperately and has NOTHING to do with anything else.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It needs sorting out because quite frankly its quite disgusting what has been happening to our class and i notice none of the devs play guardians but quite a few play monk types....  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong!!  OMG some devs DO play guardians! /GASP</FONT> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>This friendly forum education was brought to you by the Gaige for Gimped Guardian Foundation.<BR>

[Pry]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>Wrong!!  OMG some devs DO play guardians! /GASP<hr><div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, they started them yesterday, maybe in a year they will reach 60.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Prynn wrote: <P>Yeah, they started them yesterday, maybe in a year they will reach 60.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If ignorance allows you to feel better, then have at it.<BR>

[Zhonata]

<DIV>Srry was away for weekend. I am Beserker</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I said before NO guardians dont need to have their offense increased. GUARDIANS have the most aggro control period plans and simple ." OHHH i get stunned", "Ohh i only get 1 taunt during that time" Well guess what so do I. Except for all my aggro is dependant apon actually attackign and yours isnt ( You even have the abilty to drop 28% off the highest dps in your grp) So i am losing alot more aggro than you are. NOt to mention Your maddening defense procs everytime you are hit mine only has 20% chance, I have beserk WoW guess what. So do my grp member, so how does that help and even so that proc gives crap hate. Wait, guess what when you are now longer stunned you get to slap on 3 cycling taunts and 2 more if the are up, i get 2 cycling taunts and 20 sec and 3 min retimer..... and i just lost however long stunn was ( i.e. time vs aggro that i cant get back or reacrue) in aggro advancement which is already parr or subparr with you aggro control.  IN defense mode we lose all of our offesinve proc so those are out the window C/S/P out the window the only thing good in defense mode it HD attacks and taunts and you have the most and on top of that you have an abilty that drop aggro of someone.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking= 75% Aggro management + 25% defense. If you cant hold a monster then you cant tank plan and simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have equal defense,  you have (3 cycling, 2 grp taunts, Maddening Defense, and Aggro drop); i have (2 cyclign, 1 grp, 20% chance offending, 3 min timer GIbe), and on top of all that all your taunt do like 1/3 more hate. YOu have no utilties, i have stunning utillities for 15 sec which doesnt even work on epics. this is in defense mode. I have to switch to offensive mode to be equal with you in AGGRO thus lowering my defense substantially. No longer making us equal.......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottum line no matter what you all you guardians say you have alot more aggro managment potential that any other fighter, whether you choose to use it appropriatly is up to you.<STRONG> SOE</STRONG> was not trying to make the fighter class equal there are tryign to make tanking equal. <STRONG>TANKING !!!</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians <STRONG>DO NOT NEED MORE DPS</STRONG> to hold aggro <STRONG>THERE FOR</STRONG> guardians do not need dps to fullfill their roll as tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beserkers <STRONG>DO NEED DPS</STRONG> to hold aggro <STRONG>THIS IS</STRONG> <STRONG>WHY</STRONG> we do decent damage to stay on parr with other fighters <STRONG>AGGRO CONTROL</STRONG> which for those that missed it is <STRONG>JOB #1</STRONG> of tanking. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There for <STRONG>EQUAL TANKING = AGGRO MANAGEMENT.</STRONG> Defense, utilities, and offeneses take fery little share in this equation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As of <STRONG>RIGHT</STRONG> now some class have their aggro managment and defensive (**Cough*** .....Brusiers ''3k mit is not you style'') Way Unbalanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In <STRONG>CONCLUSION</STRONG> Guardians <STRONG>DONT</STRONG> need <STRONG>MORE DPS</STRONG>, what they <STRONG>DO</STRONG> need is better <STRONG>GROUP PROTECTIVE SPELLS.</STRONG></DIV>

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In <STRONG>CONCLUSION</STRONG> Guardians <STRONG>DONT</STRONG> need <STRONG>MORE DPS</STRONG>, what they <STRONG>DO</STRONG> need is better <STRONG>GROUP PROTECTIVE SPELLS.</STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you for the daily non-guardian post telling us what we need.  I'm sure as a berzerker you know exactly what our class needs, just as I would know exactly how to fix the other 5 fighter classes if they were broke (oh wait, no I wouldn't I don't play them).</P> <P>I digress, and I agree with you that we don't need DPS we need to be the most defensive tank.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There for <STRONG>EQUAL TANKING = AGGRO MANAGEMENT.</STRONG> Defense, utilities, and offeneses take fery little share in this equation.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not even sure I understand what your saying, but it appears that your claiming that aggro management is the only tool that is needed to fulfill a tanking role?  I would have to strongly disagree with you on this.  If you believe that, then I'll take a 3k mit advantage and a 10k instant heal on a 30 sec timer.  For my theory on how the tanking role should be balanced see the thread I started with the following equation as the title:  Tanking role = tanking ability+ DPS + utility + taunting ability.  All of those factor into the "tanking role" (as the equation says) and you can't balance them without considering all of them.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV>NOt to mention Your maddening defense procs everytime <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>False.<BR><BR><BR></P>

[Ladicav]

<P>Yes,  I find it kind of hypocritical that a class which was upgraded to have the same defense as us, yet lost none of it's DPS and is recognised as both an excellent party and also a raid tank is telling us that DPS is part of the agro management equation, yet Guardians are not allowed to have it. </P> <P>So if we cannot have the DPS, then we should have taunts that are non resistable, or have a very high success rate to compensate, since every taunt we have in our book can be resisted, and quite often does against the more challenging mobs and yes that includes Maddening Defense line. Beserkers have great DPS to try and maintain mob attention, what does a Guardian have if the taunt is resisted?</P> <P>IIf agro management is what Guardians were made for, why are you wanting to short change us? Are you serious? Do you even know how far ahead Beserkers are of Guardians now?</P> <P>Of course you don't, you do not play one, do you.</P> <p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class=date_text>10-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:29 PM</span>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ReviloTX wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In <STRONG>CONCLUSION</STRONG> Guardians <STRONG>DONT</STRONG> need <STRONG>MORE DPS</STRONG>, what they <STRONG>DO</STRONG> need is better <STRONG>GROUP PROTECTIVE SPELLS.</STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you for the daily non-guardian post telling us what we need.  I'm sure as a berzerker you know exactly what our class needs, just as I would know exactly how to fix the other 5 fighter classes if they were broke (oh wait, no I wouldn't I don't play them).</P> <P>I digress, and I agree with you that we don't need DPS we need to be the most defensive tank.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>You right that is my opinion from playing my lvl 40 guardian, talking with several guardians, and constantly playing with them and seeing what they can do. Guardians are the most defensive tank as i have said. Yeah i have basically the same defense as you when we are both in defense mode, but i cant hold aggro for crap and you can hold aggro like a champ. Just because i have same defenses as you in defense mode doesnt make me and equal tank. 9/10 times i am in offensive mode or no mode. This lowers my avoidance to a measly 18.6% far below you 52%( NO longer equal tank). This is where beserkers are at home for tanking, this is where we have aggro managment, and this is why we have dps. Guardians can hold aggro jsut as well if not slight better than us even when we are in Offensive mode. YES we have burst damage that really only applies for multiple encounters, but for the majority of the time single target and multiple target guardians are a better choise.</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There for <STRONG>EQUAL TANKING = AGGRO MANAGEMENT.</STRONG> Defense, utilities, and offeneses take fery little share in this equation.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not even sure I understand what your saying, but it appears that your claiming that aggro management is the only tool that is needed to fulfill a tanking role?  I would have to strongly disagree with you on this.  If you believe that, then I'll take a 3k mit advantage and a 10k instant heal on a 30 sec timer.  For my theory on how the tanking role should be balanced see the thread I started with the following equation as the title:  Tanking role = tanking ability+ DPS + utility + taunting ability.  All of those factor into the "tanking role" (as the equation says) and you can't balance them without considering all of them.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>IF you read farther up my post the full equation is tanking = 75% aggro management + 25% defense and other [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. IF you cant hold aggro you cant tank plan and simple( i.e that is why it hold such a high percent). This comes in to focus when i pointed out beserkers and guardians in defense stance. Yes we may have and equal defense, but our aggro management is far far from equal in defense stance. The equation is very accruate i am not a equal tank to you in defense mode i cant hold aggro while haveing a high defense, so my dfense means marbles if i lose aggro.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>The main role of a tank is to hold aggro (aggro management). This attribute is a much higher % in the development of a tank than tanking abilty and utilities. Yes DPS and Taunting are attributes in the category but as i have already stated in defense stance i lose almost all DPS and have less taunting abilties than you. SO yes i have same defense as you but i dont have same aggro management in defense mode, but in offensive mode i have almost same aggro managment witht no where near the same defense. SO by asking for more DPS as a guardian you are asking for a combination of my offensive stance and you defensive stance which is completly unbalanced. Your request will unbalance the equation even farther, if you want more DPS i want more taunts <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV>NOt to mention Your maddening defense procs everytime <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>False.<BR><BR><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Srry, i was told this by a guardian i assume tho that it is much higher than 20%. Can you post the % chacne in next post</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lardclav wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes,  I find it kind of hypocritical that a class which was upgraded to have the same defense as us, yet lost none of it's DPS and is recognised as both an excellent party and also a raid tank is telling us that DPS is part of the agro management equation, yet Guardians are not allowed to have it. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Reality check we always has about the same defense, many raiding guild  replaced there guardians with beserkers cause we had way better aggro management, better offense, and slighly less defense. SO we were not upgrade we have always been par with guardians. As i have stated above in order for us to have dps we have to sacrifice almost all defense. In defense mode guardians and beserkers do about the same damage, but you have way better aggro managment ( i.e. not equal). IF you want more dps i want more taunts.</FONT></P> <P>So if we cannot have the DPS, then we should have taunts that are non resistable, or have a very high success rate to compensate, since every taunt we have in our book can be resisted, and quite often does against the more challenging mobs and yes that includes Maddening Defense line. Beserkers have great DPS to try and maintain mob attention, what does a Guardian have if the taunt is resisted?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Another reality check my taunts get resisted to and do less hate and i have less of them against higher lvl mobs. Also yes we have dps, but this is negated against higher lvl mobs just like taunts cause our attacks and procs miss all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] time. SO i run into the same problem as you do no matter how you look at it.</FONT></P> <P>IIf agro management is what Guardians were made for, why are you wanting to short change us? Are you serious? Do you even know how far ahead Beserkers are of Guardians now?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Guardians have the most taunts and a mini palidin spell, in alot of peoples books that is the most aggro control in the game.....</FONT></P> <P>Of course you don't, you do not play one, do you.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Your right I havnt played my lvl 40 guardian since dof (speak of hypocritical), but then again you arnt a beserker so you dont know what our aggro control is like. I am all for guardians skill get upgraded. Guardian have no point in DPS all their aggro conmtrol is in taunting and spells. IF you guys want my DPS i want your taunts and then we can combine the warrior class and JUst have Warriors.</FONT></P><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Zhonata on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:05 AM</span>

[craized warrior]

<DIV>gaige, why do you continue to stick your nose in where its not wanted?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why do you persist in trolling these boards? your a monk, these are guardian boards and we dont appreciate your comments, you dont see any gaurdians constantly sticking thier oar in on the monk forums so why you you contunue to do it here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>please please just keep your comments to yourself and leave our boards to those who understand the class and appreciate the plight we are going thru.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i dont think any guardians care what they do with monks and were not pushing for changes in your class so leave us push for changes in our own class and butt out!</DIV>

[Rattiki]

I endorse the OPs comments.  Guardians need serious work to improve the class to make them "equal".

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>IF you read farther up my post the full equation is tanking = 75% aggro management + 25% defense and other [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....</FONT><FONT color=#ff9933>The main role of a tank is to hold aggro </FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Then why talk about defensive stance?  Obviously you would never use defensive stance if 75% of your job is to hold aggro.. you would be going all out DPS in offensive stance.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV>NOt to mention Your maddening defense procs everytime <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>False.<BR><BR><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Srry, i was told this by a guardian i assume tho that it is much higher than 20%. Can you post the % chacne in next post</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well for one it doesn't proc if we have wards on us.  Of course I'm sure yours doesn't either, but since it is more important for us to hold aggro with it than it is you, it effects us more.  This may be a bug and they intend to fix it, but until I see that in writing from SOE I will assume this is how it will work.  Afterall it took them 10 months to figure out how to have wards take mitigation into account, so I'm not holding my breath on this one.</P> <P>I will have to look when I log in tonight as to whether or not it gives us a percent.  IIRC it just says it has a chance to proc, but I could be wrong.  I honestly haven't looked at it closely in a month or so.  I'll look tonight and see if it gives a % and report back.</P>

[Ladicav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Of course you don't, you do not play one, do you.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Your right I havnt played my lvl 40 guardian since dof (speak of hypocritical), but then again you arnt a beserker so you dont know what our aggro control is like. I am all for guardians skill get upgraded. Guardian have no point in DPS all their aggro conmtrol is in taunting and spells. IF you guys want my DPS i want your taunts and then we can combine the warrior class and JUst have Warriors.</FONT></P><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Zhonata on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:05 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Speaking of reality checks, I actually do know what Berserkers are like. I have a berserker in my set group, which I play with regularly twice a week and we swap notes, all the time. He is of higher level so he is our MT. He holds agro like a legend, on multi mob encounters, on orange multi arrow cons, named mobs you name it, he can and does do it. Add to that, he does a TON more damage, and he also gets to hold agro just fine. If his taunt gets resisted, his DPS is usually around the mark to get hate back with the next attempt. Compare to Guardians, if their taunts get resisted, their DPS is so low that even if you spam taunts, I still may not get agro back, and if it happens to be a very high level mob, the DPS is almost non existant, and we just plain will *not* get agro back. That is the current reality my friend. To be honest they do not actually need me in the party, the zerker already does a sublime job, but I'm lucky I have friends like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Add to this, our top 2 Berserkers in our guild are also the MT on all our major raids. Their survivability is awesome, their DPS rocks and to date I haven't seen any problem with their agro management. So maybe the problems you seem to face are just an exaggeration because you like to blow your trumpet and come off sounding clever, or, you're not a very good berserker. You pick one. It seems as though you're trying to come out as if berserkers suck. Are you SERIOUS???!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get off your reality check soapbox. Because you do not know what reality is. I don't want a Beserkers DPS in exchange for taunts, because you are right, that would be pointless, but I think Guardians do deserve a DPS boost of some kind to aid in their agro management and party/raid attractiveness if they are not the MT. Add to that they should have resists on taunt spells/abilities negated, or at least made a lot more forgiving than it is now, especially on higher con mobs, so that we can be the agro management class you claim we are, because currently, I don't think we are. Just those 2 things would make for a more balanced system I think. You should be happy being a berserker, without coming here and hitting Guardians over the head and telling us what we need, because you have no clue, seriously.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Ladicav on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 PM</span>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ReviloTX wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>IF you read farther up my post the full equation is tanking = 75% aggro management + 25% defense and other [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....</FONT><FONT color=#ff9933>The main role of a tank is to hold aggro </FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Then why talk about defensive stance?  Obviously you would never use defensive stance if 75% of your job is to hold aggro.. you would be going all out DPS in offensive stance.<BR> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>THe point of focusing on us both in defensive stance is to show our equal defesive abilties but un equal aggro control with equal defense. Per the equation you would far surpass me in aggro control with equal defense, You are right as i stated i am in offensive stance majority of the time or no stance, but my defense suffers a great deal for this this once again making us un equal tanks. No matter how you loo kat it guardians for pure tanking and aggro managemnt are still teh best. Great aggro control with great defense,.<BR>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ladicav wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Of course you don't, you do not play one, do you.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Your right I havnt played my lvl 40 guardian since dof (speak of hypocritical), but then again you arnt a beserker so you dont know what our aggro control is like. I am all for guardians skill get upgraded. Guardian have no point in DPS all their aggro conmtrol is in taunting and spells. IF you guys want my DPS i want your taunts and then we can combine the warrior class and JUst have Warriors.</FONT></P><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Zhonata on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:05 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Speaking of reality checks, I actually do know what Berserkers are like. I have a berserker in my set group, which I play with regularly twice a week and we swap notes, all the time. He is of higher level so he is our MT. He holds agro like a legend, on multi mob encounters, on orange multi arrow cons, named mobs you name it, he can and does do it. Add to that, he does a TON more damage, and he also gets to hold agro just fine. If his taunt gets resisted, his DPS is usually around the mark to get hate back with the next attempt. Compare to Guardians, if their taunts get resisted, their DPS is so low that even if you spam taunts, I still may not get agro back, and if it happens to be a very high level mob, the DPS is almost non existant, and we just plain will *not* get agro back. That is the current reality my friend. To be honest they do not actually need me in the party, the zerker already does a sublime job, but I'm lucky I have friends like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Wow twice a week well then you are regualur expert arent you. I play with a lvl 55 guardian and a lvl 54 guardian 5-6 days a week for at least 3-4 hours in my guild. I have done this since DOF came out so saying that your experience out weights mine is a pointless persuit. As I recall, you saying <FONT color=#ffffff>"</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Do you even know how far ahead Beserkers are of Guardians now? </FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Of course you don't, you do not play one, do you." </FONT><FONT color=#ff9933>So saying you know more about my classes vs. yours is just contridicting yourself at least i have a guardian and have played one, so back down shela. Fact of the matter is that one of your taunts or mine for that matter make up for like a 30sec of me attacking and doing my burst damage. I have unloaded everything ( offensive stance,rampage, and all my attack) without taunting and had a guardian pull aggro off me with 2 run thru his cycling taunts. THe guardian is same lvl as me and has all adept 3 taunts and attack same as me.  THe only mobs that i have had resist my taunts are yellow heroics and up and as you go up i hit less and get reposited mroe for my attacks. Against a Orange con heroic mob i hit rampage and used aoe and almost was killed myself with enemie reposets. So that is just BS that when taunts are beign resist our DPS makes up for it. Only time tautss are resisted is when the mobs is very high lvl you shouldnt be fighting and the your attack are missing to ( In my personal opinion taunts being resisted period is a stupid concept.). I have the same probelm with dps classes stealing aggro and then having to reattain it it is horrible against high level mobs. On top of all that yeah i have offense, yeah i have aggro control, but in offensive stance my avoidance is almsot non existant. Now granted with several fighter in a grp you can slap the 33% chance to avoid enemy attack on me and and make it almsot better, but in the long run i take a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] laod of damage from orange con heroics becuase of extremly low avoidance. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Add to this, our top 2 Berserkers in our guild are also the MT on all our major raids. Their survivability is awesome, their DPS rocks and to date I haven't seen any problem with their agro management. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>First of all the Idea of a specific class type Raid mt doesnt fit with the new raiding style with the resistance distribution, but hey do it how you want. NO beserker would ever try tanking and EPIC of any hard difficulty in offensive mode ( we would die in liek 3 hits) WIth that it brings me back to my agrument on Guardian vs. Beserker, both in defense mode arguement. Bottum line both in defense mode guardians blow beserks out of the water. WE have the same defense, but we no longer have our dps to make up for our lack of taunting so our aggro managment is lacking. Notice in all of my arguements i have simple said that guardians hold aggro better that beserkers not that beseker dont hold aggro at all. Simply put a guardian will be able to hold an epic at bay longer allowing the dps classes to do more damage without losing it than a beserker would be able to. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>So maybe the problems you seem to face are just an exaggeration because you like to blow your trumpet and come off sounding clever, or, you're not a very good berserker. You pick one. It seems as though you're trying to come out as if berserkers suck. Are you SERIOUS???!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I dont plan on coming off clever i tell you the facts from my experience and data that i have collected actually playing.  I didnt have a problem with guardians were askign for better protective abilty or better tanking abilities, but asking for offensive abilties is out of chacter and has no purpose in you tanking role. I never once ever ever ever ever ever ever said that beserkers suck, WE rock i love my beserker. I love the way my tanking is set up, BUT the fact of the matter is that for pure defensive tanking beserkers arn't equal to guardians. Our tanking role is in offesive stance doign damage and your tanking role is in Defesive stance protecting. THis shown purly in where we hold aggro control ( #1 job of tank) you designed to hold aggro in defensive mode i am designed to hold aggro in offensive mode. Again BESEKERS ROCK, but for pure tanking guardians are still teh way to go.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get off your reality check soapbox. Because you do not know what reality is. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I was never on a soap box. As i have already stated i have spent a heck of alot more time examining this data and incombat than you so you need to get of your BS soap box and talk more about the stuff that really matters. Not to say i know more about guardians than you, but examining data from a chacter  a lvl higher than you twice a week is hardly a true testment to any of your claims.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>"What matters"</FONT></DIV> <DIV>I don't want a Beserkers DPS in exchange for taunts, because you are right, that would be pointless, but I think Guardians do deserve a DPS boost of some kind to aid in their agro management and party/raid attractiveness if they are not the MT. Add to that they should have resists on taunt spells/abilities negated, or at least made a lot more forgiving than it is now, especially on higher con mobs, so that we can be the agro management class you claim we are, because currently, I don't think we are. Just those 2 things would make for a more balanced system I think. You should be happy being a berserker, without coming here and hitting Guardians over the head and telling us what we need, because you have no clue, seriously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Guardians still do decent damage in offesive stance nowhere near that of any of the other offensive fight class, but i think that is on purpose. This is your trade off you wanted pure tanking you got it. Someway of increasing guardians grp attractiveness would be great via protection spells and grp buffs. I dont know if you have actually used guardian sphere but that isn't exactly a tanking ability it is more of a secodary tank ability cause every time our guardian use it they die cause of how much damage they are taking. Guardians group attractive ness would be great if they focused more on these prtoective abilties and made them better. Haveing a guardian would then almost be essential not jsut for tanking but secoundary tank for mage and healer protection. DPS is not the only way to be attractive to grp, Group protection would be great, expecially with how hard it is to hold aggro now. This would fit a guardians role better, i personally think it woudl be cool protectin people knowing you are accomplishing something thru protecting your groupies and them loving you for it. Like a mezzer or a healer you would be liked for you protection and security you bring to the group.</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Ladicav on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Ladicav on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:48 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not to come off Harsh man, but in the future dont go off talking down to someone when you dont even know there background or what experince they have. I know it can get heated in here, but not everyone is trying to [Removed for Content] you guys off some of us actually want to see a better more benifificial guardian. As i said and you aggre that uping the guardians DPS would not solve their problem and fullfiles no role in you tanking it would be purly for group attractivness. IT would be a quick fix to a big problem and i think in the long run you guy wil lbe gladd if they go about fixing you guys as whole and not real quick<BR></P>

[Ladicav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>Speaking of reality checks, I actually do know what Berserkers are like. I have a berserker in my set group, which I play with regularly twice a week and we swap notes, all the time. He is of higher level so he is our MT. He holds agro like a legend, on multi mob encounters, on orange multi arrow cons, named mobs you name it, he can and does do it. Add to that, he does a TON more damage, and he also gets to hold agro just fine. If his taunt gets resisted, his DPS is usually around the mark to get hate back with the next attempt. Compare to Guardians, if their taunts get resisted, their DPS is so low that even if you spam taunts, I still may not get agro back, and if it happens to be a very high level mob, the DPS is almost non existant, and we just plain will *not* get agro back. That is the current reality my friend. To be honest they do not actually need me in the party, the zerker already does a sublime job, but I'm lucky I have friends like that.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Wow twice a week well then you are regualur expert arent you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I play with a lvl 55 guardian and a lvl 54 guardian 5-6 days a week for at least 3-4 hours in my guild. I have done this since DOF came out so saying that your experience out weights mine is a pointless persuit.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>No, I never claimed to be an expert. And I never claimed my experience outweighs anyones. Case in point, you don't see ME going over the the zerker boards telling them what they need, because honestly, I know how they work on a general level, but I don't know the intracacies involved. Me going over the the zerker boards telling them how to suck eggs, wouldn't bring much favourable reaction, would it? But you did point out that I had no experience with Berserkers, and I refuted that claim. My 2 set groups a week and knowing how my guilds berserkers work is just as valid as you watching your partys Guardian(s). </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933> As I recall, you saying <FONT color=#ffffff>"</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Do you even know how far ahead Beserkers are of Guardians now? </FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Of course you don't, you do not play one, do you." </FONT><FONT color=#ff9933>So saying you know more about my classes vs. yours is just contridicting yourself at least i have a guardian and have played one, so back down shela. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>I didn't claim to know more about your class than mine, please highlight where I said this. So yes, backdown you neanderthal. Do you claim to know Guardians better than Berserkers? It is starting to sound like it, especially as I read on.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Fact of the matter is that one of your taunts or mine for that matter make up for like a 30sec of me attacking and doing my burst damage. I have unloaded everything ( offensive stance,rampage, and all my attack) without taunting and had a guardian pull aggro off me with 2 run thru his cycling taunts. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Yes this can happen, but it can also happen the other way. I've unloaded all my offensive abilities and used taunt and didn't get agro back off the Berseker, so what is your point? Are you trying to say Berserkers are weak in this area?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>THe guardian is same lvl as me and has all adept 3 taunts and attack same as me.  THe only mobs that i have had resist my taunts are yellow heroics and up and as you go up i hit less and get reposited mroe for my attacks. Against a Orange con heroic mob i hit rampage and used aoe and almost was killed myself with enemie reposets. So that is just BS that when taunts are beign resist our DPS makes up for it. Only time tautss are resisted is when the mobs is very high lvl you shouldnt be fighting and the your attack are missing to ( In my personal opinion taunts being resisted period is a stupid concept.). </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>I agree, resisted taunts are a stupid concept. This is something I would like changed, glad you agree. I've seen many zerkers survive just fine under the same scenario, the one or two times it happened to you doesn't make it a rule.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I have the same probelm with dps classes stealing aggro and then having to reattain it it is horrible against high level mobs. On top of all that yeah i have offense, yeah i have aggro control, but in offensive stance my avoidance is almsot non existant. Now granted with several fighter in a grp you can slap the 33% chance to avoid enemy attack on me and and make it almsot better, but in the long run i take a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] laod of damage from orange con heroics becuase of extremly low avoidance. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Hang on, lets compare apples with apples. If youre going to tank that big nasty con mob, of course if you are in offensive stance youre going to get shredded. You're looking to tank some big nasty mob and you think you need to go all out, thus forfeiting defensive skill? You think Guardians avoidance is any better than yours? In offensive stance any Guardian would get shredded same as you. What happens to you if you just use regular stance or better yet use a defensive stance? </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Add to this, our top 2 Berserkers in our guild are also the MT on all our major raids. Their survivability is awesome, their DPS rocks and to date I haven't seen any problem with their agro management.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>First of all the Idea of a specific class type Raid mt doesnt fit with the new raiding style with the resistance distribution, but hey do it how you want. NO beserker would ever try tanking and EPIC of any hard difficulty in offensive mode ( we would die in liek 3 hits) </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Once again, why would you go up against a killer mob, forfeiting what defensive ability you have to go offensive? You would survive longer just using no stance at all and even better if you went defensive. I just told you, our MTs are Berserkers, they do a sublime job on raids and thier survivability is awesome. If you don't wish to believe that, then I do not know what else to tell you.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>WIth that it brings me back to my agrument on Guardian vs. Beserker, both in defense mode arguement. Bottum line both in defense mode guardians blow beserks out of the water. WE have the same defense, but we no longer have our dps to make up for our lack of taunting so our aggro managment is lacking. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Hang on there sunshine, just as you lose DPS when going defensive, so do Guardians. DPS for Guardians is complete rubbish in defensive mode. Were you under the impression that we maintained our regular DPS or something??</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Notice in all of my arguements i have simple said that guardians hold aggro better that beserkers not that beseker dont hold aggro at all. Simply put a guardian will be able to hold an epic at bay longer allowing the dps classes to do more damage without losing it than a beserker would be able to. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>I do not necessarily agree, because even with my limited experience as you pointed out, I have seen with my own eyes many times where this statement has been contradicted. Zerkers make excellent tanks.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>So maybe the problems you seem to face are just an exaggeration because you like to blow your trumpet and come off sounding clever, or, you're not a very good berserker. You pick one. It seems as though you're trying to come out as if berserkers suck. Are you SERIOUS???!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I dont plan on coming off clever i tell you the facts from my experience and data that i have collected actually playing.  I didnt have a problem with guardians were askign for better protective abilty or better tanking abilities, but asking for offensive abilties is out of chacter and has no purpose in you tanking role. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>I agree, I don't think increased DPS is in character with the role of a Guardian, but if you ask for increased defensive or tanking utility for the Guardian, then you will get no response from SOE (but thats not unexpected anyway) and the thread gets high jacked by morons saying but but but no no no all fighters should be able to tank equally well blah blah blah. That there already pretty much makes the future for Guardians look pretty bleak I think. And that there is why Guardians have shleved their class and started playing something else or just plain quit the game. Since Agro management is all we have left to look forwards to then making taunts work better should be part of the package. Along with that, increased DPS has to go along with it, since a resisted taunt leaves us sucking our thumbs and better DPS would make us more attractive for groups.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I never once ever ever ever ever ever ever said that beserkers suck, WE rock i love my beserker. I love the way my tanking is set up, BUT the fact of the matter is that for pure defensive tanking beserkers arn't equal to guardians. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Actually they are, like I've told you but you seem to ignore or just throw away, I've seen bersekers both in my groups and in the raids I attend, do the same job as Guardians can and do it well. </FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Our tanking role is in offesive stance doign damage and your tanking role is in Defesive stance protecting. THis shown purly in where we hold aggro control ( #1 job of tank) you designed to hold aggro in defensive mode i am designed to hold aggro in offensive mode. Again BESEKERS ROCK, but for pure tanking guardians are still teh way to go.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get off your reality check soapbox. Because you do not know what reality is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I was never on a soap box. As i have already stated i have spent a heck of alot more time examining this data and incombat than you so you need to get of your BS soap box and talk more about the stuff that really matters. Not to say i know more about guardians than you, but examining data from a chacter  a lvl higher than you twice a week is hardly a true testment to any of your claims.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Actually that is exactly what you sound like, whether you realise it or not. You sound like you're making out you know all about Guardians vs Zerkers even though I myself never claimed to know everything about zerkers. I can almost see the vein prominent in your forehead as you heatedly thrashed this reply out.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>"What matters"</FONT></DIV> <DIV>I don't want a Beserkers DPS in exchange for taunts, because you are right, that would be pointless, but I think Guardians do deserve a DPS boost of some kind to aid in their agro management and party/raid attractiveness if they are not the MT. Add to that they should have resists on taunt spells/abilities negated, or at least made a lot more forgiving than it is now, especially on higher con mobs, so that we can be the agro management class you claim we are, because currently, I don't think we are. Just those 2 things would make for a more balanced system I think. You should be happy being a berserker, without coming here and hitting Guardians over the head and telling us what we need, because you have no clue, seriously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Guardians still do decent damage in offesive stance nowhere near that of any of the other offensive fight class, but i think that is on purpose. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Stop it with the offensive stance. When I tank, I don't use offensive stance. The whole point of tanking is to maximise your defense to ensure the safety of the party. I'll use offensive stance sometimes when I am soloing and I'm not needing to protect anyone else in the party. If you are offensive stancing everything you come across, I think I have found your problem.</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>This is your trade off you wanted pure tanking you got it. Someway of increasing guardians grp attractiveness would be great via protection spells and grp buffs. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>While this would be great, it's not going to happen. If suddenly Guardians could lift everyones including their own protection/defense skills with buffs you're going to see communities screaming foul again that Guardians are once more the number 1 tank. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I dont know if you have actually used guardian sphere but that isn't exactly a tanking ability it is more of a secodary tank ability cause every time our guardian use it they die cause of how much damage they are taking. Guardians group attractive ness would be great if they focused more on these prtoective abilties and made them better. Haveing a guardian would then almost be essential not jsut for tanking but secoundary tank for mage and healer protection. DPS is not the only way to be attractive to grp, Group protection would be great, expecially with how hard it is to hold aggro now. This would fit a guardians role better, i personally think it woudl be cool protectin people knowing you are accomplishing something thru protecting your groupies and them loving you for it. Like a mezzer or a healer you would be liked for you protection and security you bring to the group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>We already get a protection line where you can take the damage meant for someone else. It's a nice little tool, but it's not enough for a Guardian to be picked over a DPS class to fill the last spot in a group if the group already has a tank. I use it a lwhen I am the tank however, and throw it on the caster or healer or whatever, but in its existing form, I can honestly say I've never been picked for a party because of this. It's a nice little toy, but is it attractive enough to warrant a a group spot over a DPS etc? Most likely not.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Ladicav on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Ladicav on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:48 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not to come off Harsh man, but in the future dont go off talking down to someone when you dont even know there background or what experince they have. I know it can get heated in here, but not everyone is trying to [Removed for Content] you guys off some of us actually want to see a better more benifificial guardian. As i said and you aggre that uping the guardians DPS would not solve their problem and fullfiles no role in you tanking it would be purly for group attractivness. IT would be a quick fix to a big problem and i think in the long run you guy wil lbe gladd if they go about fixing you guys as whole and not real quick<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well you came on here blah blah blah telling us what we need. And you don't know ANY of us, least of all me. It's like me kicking in the door to your house and telling you what is what. But seriously, I think you should role reverse with your friends if you trust them enough. Swap chars for a week, you be the 55 guardian and they can play your 55 zerker. Then you may be in a better position to throw suggestions our way.<BR>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ladicav wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>Speaking of reality checks, I actually do know what Berserkers are like. I have a berserker in my set group, which I play with regularly twice a week and we swap notes, all the time. He is of higher level so he is our MT. He holds agro like a legend, on multi mob encounters, on orange multi arrow cons, named mobs you name it, he can and does do it. Add to that, he does a TON more damage, and he also gets to hold agro just fine. If his taunt gets resisted, his DPS is usually around the mark to get hate back with the next attempt. Compare to Guardians, if their taunts get resisted, their DPS is so low that even if you spam taunts, I still may not get agro back, and if it happens to be a very high level mob, the DPS is almost non existant, and we just plain will *not* get agro back. That is the current reality my friend. To be honest they do not actually need me in the party, the zerker already does a sublime job, but I'm lucky I have friends like that.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Wow twice a week well then you are regualur expert arent you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I play with a lvl 55 guardian and a lvl 54 guardian 5-6 days a week for at least 3-4 hours in my guild. I have done this since DOF came out so saying that your experience out weights mine is a pointless persuit.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>No, I never claimed to be an expert. And I never claimed my experience outweighs anyones. Case in point, you don't see ME going over the the zerker boards telling them what they need, because honestly, I know how they work on a general level, but I don't know the intracacies involved. Me going over the the zerker boards telling them how to suck eggs, wouldn't bring much favourable reaction, would it? But you did point out that I had no experience with Berserkers, and I refuted that claim. My 2 set groups a week and knowing how my guilds berserkers work is just as valid as you watching your partys Guardian(s). </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Your right that wouldnt boad well.... but then again beserkers arent as borken as guardians and I am simply making and informed statement and my opinion. I wasnt saying you experience wasnt valid i was sayign that i have more experience with the relation and have invest alot more time in it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933> As I recall, you saying <FONT color=#ffffff>"</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Do you even know how far ahead Beserkers are of Guardians now? </FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Of course you don't, you do not play one, do you." </FONT><FONT color=#ff9933>So saying you know more about my classes vs. yours is just contridicting yourself at least i have a guardian and have played one, so back down shela. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>I didn't claim to know more about your class than mine, please highlight where I said this. So yes, backdown you neanderthal. Do you claim to know Guardians better than Berserkers? It is starting to sound like it, especially as I read on.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>." <FONT color=#ff9933>So saying you <FONT color=#ffff66>know more about my classes vs. yours</FONT> is just contridicting yourself at least i have a guardian "</FONT><FONT color=#66ff00> I didnt</FONT><FONT color=#66ff00> say you know more about my class did I.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Fact of the matter is that one of your taunts or mine for that matter make up for like a 30sec of me attacking and doing my burst damage. I have unloaded everything ( offensive stance,rampage, and all my attack) without taunting and had a guardian pull aggro off me with 2 run thru his cycling taunts. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Yes this can happen, but it can also happen the other way. I've unloaded all my offensive abilities and used taunt and didn't get agro back off the Berseker, so what is your point? Are you trying to say Berserkers are weak in this area? Your beserker was probably taunting wasnt he. I wasnt. IF i wasnt taunting you would more than likly not get it back. My point was that your taunts more than make up for my offensive abilties.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>THe guardian is same lvl as me and has all adept 3 taunts and attack same as me.  THe only mobs that i have had resist my taunts are yellow heroics and up and as you go up i hit less and get reposited mroe for my attacks. Against a Orange con heroic mob i hit rampage and used aoe and almost was killed myself with enemie reposets. So that is just BS that when taunts are beign resist our DPS makes up for it. Only time tautss are resisted is when the mobs is very high lvl you shouldnt be fighting and the your attack are missing to ( In my personal opinion taunts being resisted period is a stupid concept.). </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>I agree, resisted taunts are a stupid concept. This is something I would like changed, glad you agree. I've seen many zerkers survive just fine under the same scenario, the one or two times it happened to you doesn't make it a rule.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>You right but it is still prone to happen and we still take alot more damage while tanking, because of us being in offensive mode.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I have the same probelm with dps classes stealing aggro and then having to reattain it it is horrible against high level mobs. On top of all that yeah i have offense, yeah i have aggro control, but in offensive stance my avoidance is almsot non existant. Now granted with several fighter in a grp you can slap the 33% chance to avoid enemy attack on me and and make it almsot better, but in the long run i take a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] laod of damage from orange con heroics becuase of extremly low avoidance. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Hang on, lets compare apples with apples. If youre going to tank that big nasty con mob, of course if you are in offensive stance youre going to get shredded. You're looking to tank some big nasty mob and you think you need to go all out, thus forfeiting defensive skill? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Um yes that is what i have been sayign this whole time. Beserkers Aggro control is in our offensive damage dealing stance. We have substandard taunting abilties in defense mode.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>You think Guardians avoidance is any better than yours? In offensive stance any Guardian would get shredded same as you. What happens to you if you just use regular stance or better yet use a defensive stance? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>No guardian avoidance isnt better we have exaact same defenses in defense mode, but then again you can have your full array of agro control in defense mode cant you. We cant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Add to this, our top 2 Berserkers in our guild are also the MT on all our major raids. Their survivability is awesome, their DPS rocks and to date I haven't seen any problem with their agro management.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>First of all the Idea of a specific class type Raid mt doesnt fit with the new raiding style with the resistance distribution, but hey do it how you want. NO beserker would ever try tanking and EPIC of any hard difficulty in offensive mode ( we would die in liek 3 hits) </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Once again, why would you go up against a killer mob, forfeiting what defensive ability you have to go offensive? You would survive longer just using no stance at all and even better if you went defensive. I just told you, our MTs are Berserkers, they do a sublime job on raids and thier survivability is awesome. If you don't wish to believe that, then I do not know what else to tell you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Because nubmer #1 job of tanking is to aggro control and  the vast majority of our consistant aggro control is in offensive stance. Our defenses are the same in defense mode thus surviavablity the same. Only diffrence is that a guardian can generate more aggro in defense mode than beserker.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>WIth that it brings me back to my agrument on Guardian vs. Beserker, both in defense mode arguement. Bottum line both in defense mode guardians blow beserks out of the water. WE have the same defense, but we no longer have our dps to make up for our lack of taunting so our aggro managment is lacking. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Hang on there sunshine, just as you lose DPS when going defensive, so do Guardians. DPS for Guardians is complete rubbish in defensive mode. Were you under the impression that we maintained our regular DPS or something??</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I parser almost all our fights and the 2 guardians in my grp with us all in defense mode pull 100-160 dps and i pull 100-175ish. I have burst damage that goes up about 250-275 dps for liek 4 sec every 3 min but that is hardly a huge jump. So we are about the same in defense mode.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Notice in all of my arguements i have simple said that guardians hold aggro better that beserkers not that beseker dont hold aggro at all. Simply put a guardian will be able to hold an epic at bay longer allowing the dps classes to do more damage without losing it than a beserker would be able to. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>I do not necessarily agree, because even with my limited experience as you pointed out, I have seen with my own eyes many times where this statement has been contradicted. Zerkers make excellent tanks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Never said they didn't. Simply stating that for pure defense = best balance of aggro control and defense. Guardian are better than beserkers.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>So maybe the problems you seem to face are just an exaggeration because you like to blow your trumpet and come off sounding clever, or, you're not a very good berserker. You pick one. It seems as though you're trying to come out as if berserkers suck. Are you SERIOUS???!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I dont plan on coming off clever i tell you the facts from my experience and data that i have collected actually playing.  I didnt have a problem with guardians were askign for better protective abilty or better tanking abilities, but asking for offensive abilties is out of chacter and has no purpose in you tanking role. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>I agree, I don't think increased DPS is in character with the role of a Guardian, but if you ask for increased defensive or tanking utility for the Guardian, then you will get no response from SOE (but thats not unexpected anyway) and the thread gets high jacked by morons saying but but but no no no all fighters should be able to tank equally well blah blah blah. That there already pretty much makes the future for Guardians look pretty bleak I think. And that there is why Guardians have shleved their class and started playing something else or just plain quit the game. Since Agro management is all we have left to look forwards to then making taunts work better should be part of the package. Along with that, increased DPS has to go along with it, since a resisted taunt leaves us sucking our thumbs and better DPS would make us more attractive for groups.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc><FONT color=#66ff00>Which brings me back to my original statement guardians dont nee moee dps. Even with mine you think i get pick aboive DPS classes NO. I get picked when their are none around or a tank is needed. So adding a dps to your class is goin going to help you much. SOE need to focus more on your protective abilties and hone those to make you more grp attractive. DPS will nto fix you class and plays no role in tanking for you.</FONT></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I never once ever ever ever ever ever ever said that beserkers suck, WE rock i love my beserker. I love the way my tanking is set up, BUT the fact of the matter is that for pure defensive tanking beserkers arn't equal to guardians. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Actually they are, like I've told you but you seem to ignore or just throw away, I've seen bersekers both in my groups and in the raids I attend, do the same job as Guardians can and do it well. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>But we arnt and this is where we fundementally disaggree apparently. Unfortunaly the nubmers and game play are on my side. Guardians have more taunts , taunts do more hate, have a beter reactive taunt with more hate, and have aggro drop. All of these are effective in defense mode. Beserkers have less taunts, their taunt do less hate, our reactive doesnt proc as often or do as much hate as yours, ...... and we hae rescue. Wait you have that. All of our aggro control is in our offensve stance with our procs that we lose when we go into dfensive stance. That is why beserkers tank  most efficinetly in Offensive stance.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Our tanking role is in offesive stance doign damage and your tanking role is in Defesive stance protecting. THis shown purly in where we hold aggro control ( #1 job of tank) you designed to hold aggro in defensive mode i am designed to hold aggro in offensive mode. Again BESEKERS ROCK, but for pure tanking guardians are still teh way to go.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get off your reality check soapbox. Because you do not know what reality is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I was never on a soap box. As i have already stated i have spent a heck of alot more time examining this data and incombat than you so you need to get of your BS soap box and talk more about the stuff that really matters. Not to say i know more about guardians than you, but examining data from a chacter  a lvl higher than you twice a week is hardly a true testment to any of your claims.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Actually that is exactly what you sound like, whether you realise it or not. You sound like you're making out you know all about Guardians vs Zerkers even though I myself never claimed to know everything about zerkers. I can almost see the vein prominent in your forehead as you heatedly thrashed this reply out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I  dont get worked up over forums warfare. So srry ..... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>"What matters"</FONT></DIV> <DIV>I don't want a Beserkers DPS in exchange for taunts, because you are right, that would be pointless, but I think Guardians do deserve a DPS boost of some kind to aid in their agro management and party/raid attractiveness if they are not the MT. Add to that they should have resists on taunt spells/abilities negated, or at least made a lot more forgiving than it is now, especially on higher con mobs, so that we can be the agro management class you claim we are, because currently, I don't think we are. Just those 2 things would make for a more balanced system I think. You should be happy being a berserker, without coming here and hitting Guardians over the head and telling us what we need, because you have no clue, seriously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Guardians still do decent damage in offesive stance nowhere near that of any of the other offensive fight class, but i think that is on purpose. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Stop it with the offensive stance. When I tank, I don't use offensive stance. The whole point of tanking is to maximise your defense to ensure the safety of the party. I'll use offensive stance sometimes when I am soloing and I'm not needing to protect anyone else in the party. If you are offensive stancing everything you come across, I think I have found your problem.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Offensive stance is where the vast majority of our aggro control is thus this is our primary tanking stance. WE lose our damaging alot of our hate gain by going into prue defense. Against bad mobs and epics we wil lbe able to tank just find and hold aggro, but guardians will still out aggro us in the end.</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>This is your trade off you wanted pure tanking you got it. Someway of increasing guardians grp attractiveness would be great via protection spells and grp buffs. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>While this would be great, it's not going to happen. If suddenly Guardians could lift everyones including their own protection/defense skills with buffs you're going to see communities screaming foul again that Guardians are once more the number 1 tank. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>You could make it towhere these protective abilties are best used in a secoundary tank roll, nto all mind you jsut some. like give them short recast and stuff to where it something you would have time to do while tanking, but on like one grp member.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I dont know if you have actually used guardian sphere but that isn't exactly a tanking ability it is more of a secodary tank ability cause every time our guardian use it they die cause of how much damage they are taking. Guardians group attractive ness would be great if they focused more on these prtoective abilties and made them better. Haveing a guardian would then almost be essential not jsut for tanking but secoundary tank for mage and healer protection. DPS is not the only way to be attractive to grp, Group protection would be great, expecially with how hard it is to hold aggro now. This would fit a guardians role better, i personally think it woudl be cool protectin people knowing you are accomplishing something thru protecting your groupies and them loving you for it. Like a mezzer or a healer you would be liked for you protection and security you bring to the group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>We already get a protection line where you can take the damage meant for someone else. It's a nice little tool, but it's not enough for a Guardian to be picked over a DPS class to fill the last spot in a group if the group already has a tank. I use it a lwhen I am the tank however, and throw it on the caster or healer or whatever, but in its existing form, I can honestly say I've never been picked for a party because of this. It's a nice little toy, but is it attractive enough to warrant a a group spot over a DPS etc? Most likely not.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>My point is the need to capitalize on this and make it more attractive without givign guardians an overwhelming MT advatage. With low recast timers, moderate spell cast tiems and such.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Ladicav on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Ladicav on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:48 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not to come off Harsh man, but in the future dont go off talking down to someone when you dont even know there background or what experince they have. I know it can get heated in here, but not everyone is trying to [Removed for Content] you guys off some of us actually want to see a better more benifificial guardian. As i said and you aggre that uping the guardians DPS would not solve their problem and fullfiles no role in you tanking it would be purly for group attractivness. IT would be a quick fix to a big problem and i think in the long run you guy wil lbe gladd if they go about fixing you guys as whole and not real quick<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well you came on here blah blah blah telling us what we need. And you don't know ANY of us, least of all me. It's like me kicking in the door to your house and telling you what is what. But seriously, I think you should role reverse with your friends if you trust them enough. Swap chars for a week, you be the 55 guardian and they can play your 55 zerker. Then you may be in a better position to throw suggestions our way.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> I came on and told you my opinion from and informed postion. Guardian dont nore ever should have dps. PURE TANK. DPS would be a quick fix that would really solve any of your problems otehr than getting dev attention. That would be at bad idea, i might try that.</DIV>

[Timzil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR><BR>I know nothing except what I'm told to know.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Drulak]

<P>yes again  all posts refer to DPS only for guard as MT - well what if we want to be picked for  a grp that already has a MT - we need more DPS for that - what about soloing - we need DPS for that too.</P> <P>Don't always equate everything to tanking - if we are all equal - according to SOE , you cannot then say we do not need DPS / Utility</P>

[Ladicav]

<DIV>Thing is, I actually agree with Zonhata on the point of Guardians shouldn't have DPS as compensation for the loss of desirability. It does not fit with the role of being a Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, what else can we do? Guardians have been painted into a corner, if we ask for our mitigation/defense back, you get the brawler clowns jumping up and down yelling that will make us number one tank again and we cannot possibly have that again, else the sky will fall. If we ask for DPS, we get a whole load of others including brawlers once again saying Guardians shouldn't get DPS either, because once again, the sky will fall. Currently Guardian desirability is borked and the attractiveness of actually starting a new one, isn't very attractive at all. I would recommend a new starting player start any other class they want, other than a Guardian and that is the honest truth. Playing one to high level is even less so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While all fighters are meant to be "equal" now, as many are trying to shove down our throats, there is no equality in DPS, especially for Guardians and Paladins. So in the end, if all classes can tank, then the desirability tends more towards the classes that can tank and deliver some nice DPS to go along with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, even after all this, Tunaboo still has a point. Where is the equality in the fighters if all of them are meant to have the tanking ability, but only the select few get to keep their DPS. The ones who are claiming equality are the ones yelling the loudest and those are generally the players of other classes who are now happy with what their class has become, and they don't give a rats behind about what has become of Guardians, why would they, so long as they are ok, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Truely I would be happy with seeing all Guardian taunts across the board become highly reliable, as in very low chance of being resisted even y orange con mobs.  AOE taunts should work on all mobs in an encounter, not work on some and resisted by others. If we get no increase in DPS, then all those same taunts also need to be increased in strength, to compensate for the lacklustre hate we generate from subpar DPS. Any Guardian who has had to mash taunts just to try to get the mob off the casters would know what I am talking about here. Until that happens, I don't think we are significantly ahead of the taunt generation realm over any other fighter to be able to declare that Guardians are the best at agro generation and maintaining agro. Because currently, that just plain is not true.</DIV>

[Zhonata]

<DIV>Thanks for jumping back on subject <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agreed, that guardians lack any sort of real attractivness outside of Mt role. Like i said before DPS wont helped taht cause in the long run DPS class out damage any tank class offensive oriented chacter by a heck of alot. So there will never be a subsitute for that DPS class just the next best thing that happen to be looking for a group. I dont really see why anyone would want to endure 60 lvl of beign a guardians as of right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE is trying to have all tanks tank equally with out have the same repeatetive tank. Like the diffrence in guardians and beserkers being i am most effect if offensive stance while you are most effective in defensive stance. Now we are equal tanks in my opinion, but we arnt equal ( same concept of SOE trying to make a balanced tank archtype Oxymoron). I do damage, hold aggro as well as you but lack in the avoidance of my defense(18.6). So i can take hits but have to be healed alot more becasue i am almost always getting hit. Flip side Guardians dont do damage have same aggro as me (In offensive stance), but have and excellent avoidance( not that of a monk or a bruiser) but still 52% isnt bad. This in terms is their equality. It is spread throughout the entire fighter class ( minus brawler whos 3k mit buff should stunn them and be used soly as a survival strat not as a tanking buff... .DE V's FIX THIS). What this has resulted in is the Guardian class who is by defination being stuck with and already blain role as the pure tank. Then they dont  give you any majorly defining attruibutes. I mean i think the protective line of abilties was a great idea. THe way the implemented it sucked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys need to be noticible the best protectors out there.  These should not be until canceled abilties. They should have short recast requiring constant attention to keep you grpies safe and because of this mt may not always be the best role for a guardian backing up another tank maybe the best place in some instances. Let say me tanking and you constantly spreading your intervention buff to the vunerable classes. This would be a very pevitalbe role and would be welcome in any grp. Like i said in general if there is a DPS class out there and a Offensive tank out there DPS will get slot everytime. I think you guys would enjoy a more defined rolled a protecting grpies and might even find it fun to say," HAHAH i just saved your ***." IF this were to happen I might even start playing on my guardian again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes people will say, " Well now guardians are the best tanks." This wont be true this won't effect your technicall abilty to tank cause these wont up your defense or avoidance. They can perhaps be reactive procs also givign you guys a little more aggro that you are wanting. Not much just a little, but i all fairness if you block a creature from hitting an allie it going to [Removed for Content] them off. They can also be somethings like (you target whoever is tanking and the spell effects everyone except that target) allowing you to exclude the current mt's damage and let me absorb it. Damage should be delt out mitigated not unmitgated. You should take like 80% mitigated damage and have like the group take 25% unmitigated and you mitigated % should drop the more attacks you block at once. SO like if your grp gets aoed you would take like 60% mitgated instead of if jsut one grp meber got hit you would take 80%. ( BTW i mean that you should take 20% of the damage and the last 80% shoudl be mitigated)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This specific type of protective line i am talking about want always be a good thing to use while u are tank. I mean when that epic X4 is hitting you for 2-3 k crushing damage it woudl be smart to be intervening on and allie that is goign to get hit by and aoe for 1000 would it. So it would kind a be a split between like 1 or 2 abilties (plus the fighter class defaults) that are used for tanking and rest will be suited for nontanking situations. I would love personally to see the guardian i play with with this ability</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think that this would over power the Guardians if it was tested porperly and put into proportion correctly into game.  I mean obviously my numbers are not accuracte and they would probably need to be lowered. This would give you guys great abilty, it would be defining and i think any grp would be glad to have you.</DIV>

[Landiin]

Oh now that you are able to tank as well as us, you want to keep you DPS all to your self.. wow.. If you tank like me I should DPS like you. If you now have my skill I should have your skill. Ballance is a two way street kiddo.. Well normaly it is but in SOE's world I guess its not..

[Wli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Guardians still do decent damage in offesive stance nowhere near that of any of the other offensive fight class, but i think that is on purpose. This is your trade off you wanted pure tanking you got it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>...</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>HEY !!! Say that again please!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOUDER please!! :smileywink:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Wlian on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 AM</span>

[Zhonata]

<DIV>LOL:smileyvery-happy:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Landiin wrote:<BR>Oh now that you are able to tank as well as us, you want to keep you DPS all to your self.. wow.. If you tank like me I should DPS like you. If you now have my skill I should have your skill. Ballance is a two way street kiddo.. Well normaly it is but in SOE's world I guess its not.. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>HEHE <FONT color=#ffff33>newsflash</FONT> we always tanked as good as you. Infact alot of guild were starting to replace US with YOU for raid tanking. We only had a slighly less defense, way better aggro control, way better dps, and all we lacked was an abilty like anchor. If any class was OVERPOWERED it was the beserker class PRE-LU13. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW if you dont have anything actually pertaining to the guardian class inprovements or comments on the subject, butt out. We just got this thread back on track.</DIV>

[Zhonata]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wlian wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Guardians still do decent damage in offesive stance nowhere near that of any of the other offensive fight class, but i think that is on purpose. This is your trade off you wanted pure tanking you got it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>...</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>HEY !!! Say that again please!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOUDER please!! :smileywink:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Wlian on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:46 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>DONE ! :smileywink:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Guardians still do decent damage in offesive stance nowhere near that of any of the </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>other offensive fight class, but i think that is on purpose.:smileyhappy: This is your trade off you wanted pure </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>tanking you got it.</FONT><BR></DIV>

[Krooner]

<P>And other fighter classes were suppose to trade tanking ability for utility ....</P> <P>ZAP now thats equal .....</P> <P>What now ?????????????????????????</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 AM</span>

[Creppie]

<P>Guardian</P> <P> </P> <P><IMG src="https://home.comcast.net/~crepiscule/EQ2/guard.jpg"></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawler</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="https://home.comcast.net/~crepiscule/EQ2/brawler.jpeg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nuff said!  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Krooner]

<P>OMG Creppie thats so right one and funny..</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks</P> <P> </P>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote:<BR> <P>And other fighter classes were suppose to trade tanking ability for utility ....</P> <P>ZAP now thats equal .....</P> <P>What now ?????????????????????????</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:23 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well in SOE's  grand plan all the the classes are supose to tank equally........ oxymoron. IN general tho the class you are talking about avoidance tanks are not as efficient as plate tanks. Yeah they get that insane avoidance, but they get smack 2-3 times but something hard it the sleep for the rest of the fight. Best use i have seen for a monk in is giving me a 33% chance to use his 62% avoidance. Brawlers are still bugged. there 3k mit buff is supose to stun them, but abilty they get later nul land voids that and it shouldnt. Otherwise i would say the same thing. Avoidance tanks are iffy..... i honestly prefer my High mitigation low avoidance beserker in offensive stance to their defense. At least can take a hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOVE THAT PICS !!!!!!</DIV>